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Author Topic: Fatima Once Again  (Read 11230 times) Average Rating: 0
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Orthodoc
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« on: February 11, 2009, 07:44:25 PM »


On another website administered by one of the sui juris churches of Roman Catholic Chuch the topic of Fatima came up once again.

The discussion once again stated that the praying for the conversion of Russia that was so prevelent in the 50's was for the conversion of Russia from communism. Rather (contrary to what my friends, neighbors, & classmates used to tell me) the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism.

However there were two replies from those within the papal Catholic Church who replied that -

1)  The prayers for the conversion of Russia are still part of the Rosary and are still said by traitional Roman Catholics.

2)The other reply (and I quote) says the following - "we still pray for consecration. In fact, after every Low Mass, the priest descends the altar to pray the Leonine Prayers with the people for the consecration of Russia."

Perhaps some of our posters who are part of this church can answer the question on WHY THESE PRAYERS are still being said now that communism is no longer in control in Russia and the Orthodox Catholic Church is expanding by leaps and bounds (see the statics of the growth of the Orthodox Church under +Alexy of blessed memory).  Especially since the exact opposite is happening in the west by this very church.

It does get confusing when one reads such contradictory statements.

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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2009, 08:05:43 PM »


On another website administered by one of the sui juris churches of Roman Catholic Chuch the topic of Fatima came up once again.

The discussion once again stated that the praying for the conversion of Russia that was so prevelent in the 50's was for the conversion of Russia from communism. Rather (contrary to what my friends, neighbors, & classmates used to tell me) the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism.

However there were two replies from those within the papal Catholic Church who replied that -

1)  The prayers for the conversion of Russia are still part of the Rosary and are still said by traitional Roman Catholics.

2)The other reply (and I quote) says the following - "we still pray for consecration. In fact, after every Low Mass, the priest descends the altar to pray the Leonine Prayers with the people for the consecration of Russia."

Perhaps some of our posters who are part of this church can answer the question on WHY THESE PRAYERS are still being said now that communism is no longer in control in Russia and the Orthodox Catholic Church is expanding by leaps and bounds (see the statics of the growth of the Orthodox Church under +Alexy of blessed memory).  Especially since the exact opposite is happening in the west by this very church.

It does get confusing when one reads such contradictory statements.

Orthodoc



That is certainly an interesting question. I wouldn't mind knowing the answer myself.
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2009, 08:10:08 PM »

Really, I think this is an over-reaction and overkill.
The fact is that those who are saying the Leonine Prayers after Mass are actually in disobedience to their own Church. The Sacred Congregation of Rites supressed the recitation of the Leonine Prayers in the encyclical "Inter Oecumenici" (Section 48 j ).
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 09:12:58 PM »

Orthodoc,

Instead of relying on hearsay thirdhand info and questionable websites, why don't you go to a reputable source?  For example:
http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/BVM.htm

You can read an exact transcription of the apparitions.  The relevant one about Russia:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.

We then looked up at Our Lady, who said to us so kindly and so sadly:

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."


After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."

http://212.77.1.247/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

I took the liberty of adding the the third part which was not revealed publically until later.

The Fatima prayer which may be added to (but not an official part of) the Rosary is: O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need. (of thy mercy.)

Sr Lucia confirmed the Consecration of Russia took place in 1984 by Pope John Paul II and the fall of Communism and resurgence of the Russian Church was proof of such.  There is a disobedient movement called the Fatima Network, headed by Fr. Nicholas Gruner whose priestly faculties are suspended http://www.fatima.org/, not to be confused with the Vatican recognized Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima http://www.wafusa.org/.  Fr. Gruner's group claims the 84 consecration was invalid, Russia is still controlled by Communists, and the Russian Orthodox Church is a Communist run farce and that prayer for the conversion of Russia to Catholicism is a must, but will not be affected until a Pope and every Catholic bishop consecrates Russia according to their criteria.  Some Catholics are duped by this organization and spout its rhetoric but this is not the fault of the Catholic Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 09:53:27 PM »

Always thought it was the conversion of communists...
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2009, 09:55:35 PM »

Of course it the fault of the catholic church for promoting this satanic apparition that point's to her .....this satanic vision didn't know that the Theotokos was greatly loved and honored by the russian faithful ..the theotokos versus satan....
 This is an Orthodox Christian forum.  You do not have to agree with the Roman Catholic Church, but must still show tact and decorum to others.  Your posts often have strong undertones of malice rather than love.  This has been a continuing trend that must end.  Please contact ozgeorge or Fr. Chris if you fell that this warning is in error.

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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2009, 10:12:53 PM »

Jakub,

The "error" of Russia spoken of in the apparition is Communism not Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2009, 10:15:14 PM »

Stashko,

I fail to see what the devotion of those Russians who remained faithful has to do with the fact that Communists took over Russia and did spread her error throughout the world to places like Serbia.

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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2009, 10:19:22 PM »

Of course it the fault of the catholic church for promoting this satanic apparition that point's to her .....this satanic vision didn't know that the Theotokos was greatly loved and honored by the russian faithful ..the theotokos versus satan....
You shouldn't call the Our Blessed Mother Satan, even if you are not a fan of hers.
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2009, 10:26:58 PM »

That's not the Blessed Mother.....We know Who the Blessed Mother is that was Handed to us through the centry's by the holy Fathers...this apparition is not it...this is something not know to the ancient Holy Orthodox church....
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 10:31:19 PM »

That's not the Blessed Mother.....We know Who the Blessed Mother is that was Handed to us through the centry's by the holy Fathers...this apparition is not it...this is something not know to the ancient Holy Orthodox church....

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 10:31:29 PM »

Stashko,

I fail to see what the devotion of those Russians who remained faithful has to do with the fact that Communists took over Russia and did spread her error throughout the world to places like Serbia.

Fr. Deacon Lance


thay were brain washed by the roman catholic masquerading as orthodox clergy..to fragment it and created this eastern catholic church...its happened in a lot of orthodox country's..
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 10:36:07 PM »

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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2009, 10:37:58 PM »

Of course it the fault of the catholic church for promoting this satanic apparition that point's to her .....this satanic vision didn't know that the Theotokos was greatly loved and honored by the russian faithful ..the theotokos versus satan....
You shouldn't call the Our Blessed Mother Satan, even if you are not a fan of hers.


I am guessing that he is not calling the Theotokos, Satan, only the apparition appearing as her.
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2009, 10:47:30 PM »

Stashko,

I fail to see what the devotion of those Russians who remained faithful has to do with the fact that Communists took over Russia and did spread her error throughout the world to places like Serbia.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Serbia was never under the iron curtin,, people moved and travel anywhere in the world they wanted.....tito broke away from russia in the 50's..this phoney vision failed to mention this to you because it didn't know it...
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2009, 10:57:04 PM »

You lost me on the Catholic clergy masquerading as Orthodox clergy...is this part of the Fascist Catholics turn Orthodox gold into Jewish diamonds conspiracy? Roll Eyes

Russia was the first Communist nation and they managed to spread this infection to all the other Slav nations,  Serbia included.  Being part of the Warsaw Pact has nothing to do with it, having your nation run by an athiestic Communist government does.

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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2009, 10:59:30 PM »

Jesuits.....
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2009, 11:16:10 PM »

What? I've seen these conspiracies from Chick Tracts, I never thought many Orthodox Christians believed them.
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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2009, 11:17:18 PM »

Still don't get.  Are you saying it was the Jesuits who enabled the Communists to take over Russia?
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« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2009, 11:26:01 PM »

There are several conspiracies. One (from Chick publications) says that the Pope created communism (Karl Marx must have been a secret Jesuit or something) in order to destroy the Orthodox Church. "Seeing this didn't work" the Pope supposedly created Nazism to try and destroy the Russian Orthodox again. I thought this was just a Fundy-Baptist theory, but I guess they're not the only ones who believe it.

Another weird one is the Jews supposedly took over Russia posing as atheists to destroy the Orthodox Church.

Others have mixed it around to form their own theories, but they are all just as strange.
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2009, 11:34:45 PM »

Orthodoc,

Instead of relying on hearsay thirdhand info and questionable websites, why don't you go to a reputable source?  For example:
http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/BVM.htm

You can read an exact transcription of the apparitions.  The relevant one about Russia:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.

We then looked up at Our Lady, who said to us so kindly and so sadly:

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."


After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."

http://212.77.1.247/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

I took the liberty of adding the the third part which was not revealed publically until later.

The Fatima prayer which may be added to (but not an official part of) the Rosary is: O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need. (of thy mercy.)

Sr Lucia confirmed the Consecration of Russia took place in 1984 by Pope John Paul II and the fall of Communism and resurgence of the Russian Church was proof of such.  There is a disobedient movement called the Fatima Network, headed by Fr. Nicholas Gruner whose priestly faculties are suspended http://www.fatima.org/, not to be confused with the Vatican recognized Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima http://www.wafusa.org/.  Fr. Gruner's group claims the 84 consecration was invalid, Russia is still controlled by Communists, and the Russian Orthodox Church is a Communist run farce and that prayer for the conversion of Russia to Catholicism is a must, but will not be affected until a Pope and every Catholic bishop consecrates Russia according to their criteria.  Some Catholics are duped by this organization and spout its rhetoric but this is not the fault of the Catholic Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance



Because I learned a long time ago that EWTN is far from reliable.  You still haven't answered why after the fall of communism that the prayers are still receited after 'low mass' or why it is part of the rosary as these Roman Catholic posters claim on the website mentioned.  Or why this apparition asked for Russia to consecrated to her when Russia had more churches dedicated to the Virgin Mary than any other country in the world.  This is why you will never convince an Orthodox Slav of the validity of this farce.  And, anyone of us who were around from the fifties on, remember very well from our  RC friends and neighbors why they were going to church to pray for the conversion of Russia.  We were told this constantly until ecumenist movement came about when things suddenly changed.  I remember Bishop Sheen saying on TV he would like to live long enough to be able to serve mass in St Basil's Cathedral on Red Square.  I heard it with my own ears.  We all know he was a bi-ritualist so how could he have served mass in an Orthodox Cathedral as a Roman Catholic bishop if the cathedral remained Orthodox?

==============

Facts regarding Mary And Her Centuries Ties To Russia -

Russia has been traditionally known as "the House of Holy Mary", and
God's Mother has been regarded as the holy protectress of Russia for
centuries. There were more churches devoted to Her Nativity,
Presentation, Annunciation, Assumption, and Intercession than to
important events from the life of Christ. Many more churches were
built to honour the holy images of God's Mother, such as "Our Lady of
Vladimir", "Our Lady of Smolensk", and "Our Lady of Kazan".

The cult of God's Mother was introduced to Russia by Andrei
Bogolyubski who brought to his new capital the Byzantine icon "Our
Lady of Vladimir". During the most important events of Russian
history, such as the Polish invasion of 1612 or the French invasion of
1812, numerous prayers for victory were offered to this and other
important images of God's Mother. Even the Russian tricolour flag,
first introduced in 1667, was modeled after the traditional colours of
her clothes.

At the beginning of the 20th centuries, strange things started to
happen with holy icons. "Our Mother of Kazan" was stolen from the
Kazan monastery and was apparently burnt by thieves to ashes; "Our
Mother of Smolensk" (or the Hodegetria) started to "cry" with resin
(the icon perished during the WWII). The Fyodorovskaya icon of God's
Mother at Kostroma's Ipatievsky Monastery was considered the holy
protectress of the Romanov family: the first Romanov tsar's mother
blessed him for the reign with this icon. This holy image (said to be
painted by Apostle Luke but dated by analysis only to the 9th century)
started to blacken from 1911 on, and by 1917 it became so black that
almost nothing could be seen on it. Other divine images were
scattered: "Our Lady of Vladimir" and the Blachernitissa (made in the
7th century from the ashes of Christian martyrs) are exhibited at the
Tretyakov Gallery, "Our Lady of Tikhvin" is now in Chicago, and only
the tragic masterpiece "Our Lady of Tolga" (1314) was yesterday
(22-Aug-2003) returned to the Tolga Convent at Yaroslavl.

Our Lady of Vladimir:
www.pbs.org/weta/faceofrussia/...e/1100/12c.html
Our Lady of Kostroma ("Fyodorovskaya", after the restoration):
www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icon...orovsk_kost.jpg
Our Lady of Blachernae:
www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icon...033_vlahern.jpg
Our Lady of Tolga:
www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icon.../022_tolgsk.jpg

++++++++++++

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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 11:43:17 PM »

Of course it the fault of the catholic church for promoting this satanic apparition that point's to her .....this satanic vision didn't know that the Theotokos was greatly loved and honored by the russian faithful ..the theotokos versus satan....
You shouldn't call the Our Blessed Mother Satan, even if you are not a fan of hers.


I am guessing that he is not calling the Theotokos, Satan, only the apparition appearing as her.
I know what he meant. But him spouting off things like "Our Lady of Fatima is really Satan" is not constructive in the least. It certainly doesn't convince anyone who disagrees with him over to his side.
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2009, 11:49:49 PM »

Still don't get.  Are you saying it was the Jesuits who enabled the Communists to take over Russia?

ill pm Father Ambrose he has the facts on the Jesuits how they masqueraded  as orthodox clergy out to convert the orthodox....and to tear the church apart.....vatican's thug's..they really done a job in india allso....
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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2009, 11:52:04 PM »

Still don't get.  Are you saying it was the Jesuits who enabled the Communists to take over Russia?

ill pm Father Ambrose he has the scoop on the Jesuits how they masqueraded  as orthodox clergy out to convert the orthodox....and to tear the church apart.....vatican's thug's..they really done a job in india allso....

Please do not post hearsay!  If you have documentation, then present your opinion with them.  Just posting "scoops" does not allow anyone to debate the subject with you or further discuss it, since there is nothing remotely credible and academic to start off with.
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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2009, 12:00:31 AM »

He has the facts..ill ask him i get back to you..
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2009, 12:04:20 AM »

He has the facts..ill ask him i get back to you..

Thank you.  It is just without proper citations and evidence, forums can become realms of gossip.
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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2009, 12:29:50 AM »

  Thread Split.  Conversation pertaining to "the West", can be found in the private forums.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19683.0.html

If you do not have access to the private forums, please contact Fr. Chris.

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« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2009, 01:10:02 AM »

Because I learned a long time ago that EWTN is far from reliable.  You still haven't answered why after the fall of communism that the prayers are still receited after 'low mass' or why it is part of the rosary as these Roman Catholic posters claim on the website mentioned.  Or why this apparition asked for Russia to consecrated to her when Russia had more churches dedicated to the Virgin Mary than any other country in the world.  This is why you will never convince an Orthodox Slav of the validity of this farce.  And, anyone of us who were around from the fifties on, remember very well from our  RC friends and neighbors why they were going to church to pray for the conversion of Russia.  We were told this constantly until ecumenist movement came about when things suddenly changed.  I remember Bishop Sheen saying on TV he would like to live long enough to be able to serve mass in St Basil's Cathedral on Red Square.  I heard it with my own ears.  We all know he was a bi-ritualist so how could he have served mass in an Orthodox Cathedral as a Roman Catholic bishop if the cathedral remained Orthodox?

First of all you don't mention the website you are getting your info from but I doubt the people know what they are talking about or are faithful to the Holy Father.

The Leonine Prayers are:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.  Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen. (three times)

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

P: Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.

R: That we be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

P: Let us pray. O God, our refuge and our strength, look down with favor upon Thy people who cry to Thee; and through the intercession of the glorious and immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of her spouse, blessed Joseph, of Thy holy apostles, Peter and Paul, and all the saints, mercifully and graciously hear the prayers which we pour forth to Thee for the conversion of sinners and for the liberty and exaltation of holy mother Church. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

St. Michael, the archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. We humbly beseech God to command him. And do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the divine power thrust into hell Satan and the other evil spirits who roam through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

P: Most Sacred Heart of Jesus.
R: Have mercy on us! (three times)

Prayers after Low Mass were first requested  by Blessed Pius IX for the intention of Pope regaining temporal sovreignity over the Papal States.  These were three Hail Marys and the Hail Holy Queen with Versicles and Collect.  Pope Leo XIII changed the collect slightly and added the pareyr to St. Michael.  The intention remained the same.  it is from this they acquired the name Leonine.  St. Pius X added the petitions to the Sacred Heart.  In 1929 the Lateran Treaty was signed and the Pope regained temporal sovreignity over the Vatican City State.  The original intention of the prayer being answered, Pope Pius XI in 1930 changed it stating:

"not so long ago the en­emies of God and religion throughout the afore­mentioned regions kin­dled a very fierce persecution of the Church.  Christ, the Redeemer of the human race, is there­fore to be im­plored to permit tranquillity and freedom to profess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia. And, that all may be able to make this prayer with very little trouble and difficulty, We desire that those same prayers which Our Predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, or­dered priests to recite with the people af­ter Mass, shall be said for this intention, that is, for Russia. Bishops and the clergy, both secular and religious, should be most zealous in giving no­tice of this to their people or to all who assist at Mass, and should frequently remind them of it."

In 1964 Pope Paul VI suppressed the Leonine Prayers.  There were never used in the Ordinary form of the Roman Rite Mass and those using the Extraordinary form today should not be using them.

In origin the prayers were not originally for Russia, nor were they ever for the conversion of Russia to Latin Catholicism but that Christ "permit tranquillity and freedom to profess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia."

The Fatima prayer added to the Rosary has nothing at all to with Russia but with imploring mercy for all souls.

Why did Our Lady ask for Russia to be consecrated?  Because the most powerful atheist goverment yet to exist was in control of her.  It had nothing to do with the suffering faithful but the persecuting apostates.

As for Archbishop Sheen, I believe he hoped that just as Russian Orthodox were allowed to celebrate Liturgy in the Catholic Basilica of St. Nicholas in Bari, he would be able to celebrate Liturgy in the Orthodox Cathedral of St. Basil.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2009, 01:34:05 AM »

Because I learned a long time ago that EWTN is far from reliable.  You still haven't answered why after the fall of communism that the prayers are still receited after 'low mass' or why it is part of the rosary as these Roman Catholic posters claim on the website mentioned.  Or why this apparition asked for Russia to consecrated to her when Russia had more churches dedicated to the Virgin Mary than any other country in the world.  This is why you will never convince an Orthodox Slav of the validity of this farce.  And, anyone of us who were around from the fifties on, remember very well from our  RC friends and neighbors why they were going to church to pray for the conversion of Russia.  We were told this constantly until ecumenist movement came about when things suddenly changed.  I remember Bishop Sheen saying on TV he would like to live long enough to be able to serve mass in St Basil's Cathedral on Red Square.  I heard it with my own ears.  We all know he was a bi-ritualist so how could he have served mass in an Orthodox Cathedral as a Roman Catholic bishop if the cathedral remained Orthodox?

(1) First of all you don't mention the website you are getting your info from but I doubt the people know what they are talking about or are faithful to the Holy Father. The Leonine Prayers are:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.  Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen. (three times)

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

P: Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.

R: That we be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

P: Let us pray. O God, our refuge and our strength, look down with favor upon Thy people who cry to Thee; and through the intercession of the glorious and immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of her spouse, blessed Joseph, of Thy holy apostles, Peter and Paul, and all the saints, mercifully and graciously hear the prayers which we pour forth to Thee for the conversion of sinners and for the liberty and exaltation of holy mother Church. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

St. Michael, the archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. We humbly beseech God to command him. And do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the divine power thrust into hell Satan and the other evil spirits who roam through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

P: Most Sacred Heart of Jesus.
R: Have mercy on us! (three times)

Prayers after Low Mass were first requested  by Blessed Pius IX for the intention of Pope regaining temporal sovreignity over the Papal States.  These were three Hail Marys and the Hail Holy Queen with Versicles and Collect.  Pope Leo XIII changed the collect slightly and added the pareyr to St. Michael.  The intention remained the same.  it is from this they acquired the name Leonine.  St. Pius X added the petitions to the Sacred Heart.  In 1929 the Lateran Treaty was signed and the Pope regained temporal sovreignity over the Vatican City State.  The original intention of the prayer being answered, Pope Pius XI in 1930 changed it stating:

"not so long ago the en­emies of God and religion throughout the afore­mentioned regions kin­dled a very fierce persecution of the Church.  Christ, the Redeemer of the human race, is there­fore to be im­plored to permit tranquillity and freedom to profess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia. And, that all may be able to make this prayer with very little trouble and difficulty, We desire that those same prayers which Our Predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, or­dered priests to recite with the people af­ter Mass, shall be said for this intention, that is, for Russia. Bishops and the clergy, both secular and religious, should be most zealous in giving no­tice of this to their people or to all who assist at Mass, and should frequently remind them of it."

In 1964 Pope Paul VI suppressed the Leonine Prayers.  There were never used in the Ordinary form of the Roman Rite Mass and those using the Extraordinary form today should not be using them.

(2) In origin the prayers were not originally for Russia, nor were they ever for the conversion of Russia to Latin Catholicism but that Christ "permit tranquillity and freedom to profess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia." The Fatima prayer added to the Rosary has nothing at all to with Russia but with imploring mercy for all souls.

(3)  Why did Our Lady ask for Russia to be consecrated?  Because the most powerful atheist goverment yet to exist was in control of her.  It had nothing to do with the suffering faithful but the persecuting apostates.As for Archbishop Sheen, I believe he hoped that just as Russian Orthodox were allowed to celebrate Liturgy in the Catholic Basilica of St. Nicholas in Bari, he would be able to celebrate Liturgy in the Orthodox Cathedral of St. Basil.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Fr Deacon Lance:

(1) The reason I did not give the website I read it on is because I was under the impression we are not allowed to do so on this forum.  But I am very sure you are aware of it since you access it and are part of it so why the question you already know the answer to?

(2)  Then how come so many millions of Roman Catholics were misinformed about the prayers in the 1950's.  I myself sat in a RC religious class with my high school friends where the nun said exactly that.  Perhaps some RC' or former RC's that go back that far will tell you the same thing.
Things changed in the mid 60's but up until that time the RCC had a huge propaganda campaign against the ROC and Fatima was the springboard.

(3)  I was told that Our Lady asked that Russia be converted to her so called sacred heart.  Why wouldn't she carry out one of the two tasks given to her by God the Father and point to her son instead of herself?  Especially when she was so well aware of the love the Russians and Ukranians have for her?

Orthodoc

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« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2009, 05:38:55 AM »

There are several conspiracies. One (from Chick publications) says that the Pope created communism (Karl Marx must have been a secret Jesuit or something) in order to destroy the Orthodox Church. "Seeing this didn't work" the Pope supposedly created Nazism to try and destroy the Russian Orthodox again. I thought this was just a Fundy-Baptist theory, but I guess they're not the only ones who believe it.

Another weird one is the Jews supposedly took over Russia posing as atheists to destroy the Orthodox Church.

Others have mixed it around to form their own theories, but they are all just as strange.
I wonder what Jack Chick thinks about Orthodoxy?  I've read a few of his tracts, and he is definitely not a fan of the ROMAN(extra emphasis, just to be safe; I've seen people get in trouble) Catholic Church.  I'm sure he would disagree with Orthodox doctrines, but this seems to be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

This, of course, is not to imply that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are actually enemies.
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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2009, 09:10:58 AM »

Really, I think this is an over-reaction and overkill.
The fact is that those who are saying the Leonine Prayers after Mass are actually in disobedience to their own Church. The Sacred Congregation of Rites supressed the recitation of the Leonine Prayers in the encyclical "Inter Oecumenici" (Section 48 j ).

The Leonine Prayers still exist except they are now suppressed, is this correct?

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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2009, 01:44:47 PM »

I wonder what Jack Chick thinks about Orthodoxy?  I've read a few of his tracts, and he is definitely not a fan of the ROMAN(extra emphasis, just to be safe; I've seen people get in trouble) Catholic Church.  I'm sure he would disagree with Orthodox doctrines, but this seems to be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Don't waste your time analyzing the work of someone who obviously cares nothing for intelligent, rational discourse (i.e., Jack Chick).
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« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2009, 02:16:47 PM »

Wikipedia has what appears to be a decent article on the Leonine prayers, with references (though one key ref isn't linked to, as I'll note). The reality is that the prayers were introduced in 1859, and originally hand nothing whatsoever to do with Russia. It was Pius XI who introduced that part, changing the intent (not the prayers themselves) "to permit tranquillity and freedom to pro­fess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia". Wikipedia gives a citation for this, but not a link to the text; however, I see no particular reason to doubt it. As has been said above, they were suppressed by Vatican II under Paul VI. All this stuff can be looked up.

Meanwhile, the statement that someone made about the rosary is completely bogus. Perhaps there is some crankolic group out there doing some unauthorized praying using a rosary, but the true, traditional rosay has nothing at all to do with Russia.

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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2009, 05:19:47 PM »

Fr Deacon Lance:

(1) The reason I did not give the website I read it on is because I was under the impression we are not allowed to do so on this forum.  But I am very sure you are aware of it since you access it and are part of it so why the question you already know the answer to?

(2)  Then how come so many millions of Roman Catholics were misinformed about the prayers in the 1950's.  I myself sat in a RC religious class with my high school friends where the nun said exactly that.  Perhaps some RC' or former RC's that go back that far will tell you the same thing.
Things changed in the mid 60's but up until that time the RCC had a huge propaganda campaign against the ROC and Fatima was the springboard.

(3)  I was told that Our Lady asked that Russia be converted to her so called sacred heart.  Why wouldn't she carry out one of the two tasks given to her by God the Father and point to her son instead of herself?  Especially when she was so well aware of the love the Russians and Ukranians have for her?

Orthodoc

Orthodoc,

(1) Believe it or not I don't read every subforum or thread on byzcath everyday, so no I was not aware there was current Fatima thread until I went looking for it after your post.  I notice the thread started is a new member who describes himself as a "Latin Rite Chrisitan".  In other words he belongs to the SSPX or some other unapproved or schismatic group.  Should the Orthodox Church be judged by the actions of its splinter groups?.

(2) I don't know, but you'll find that lots of Catholics are misinformed about lots of things, just as many Orthodox are.  But misinformed faithful do not a belief or policy make.  Again nothing about Fatima was aimed at the Russian Orthodox only the Communists and Apostates.

(3) Why did the Theotokos appear at Constantinople and spread her mantle over it instead of Christ?  To Christ through Mary is a saying of St. Louis de Montfort.  Every honor given to the Theotokos is ultimately an honor for her Son.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2009, 05:34:53 PM »

On another website administered by one of the sui juris churches of Roman Catholic Chuch the topic of Fatima came up once again.

Byzcath is a privately owned site whose owner and administrator is Byzantine Catholic.  It has no official sanction or connection to the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh as the site clearly states:

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright ©1996-2009. All rights reserved.
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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2009, 05:35:44 PM »

Really, I think this is an over-reaction and overkill.
The fact is that those who are saying the Leonine Prayers after Mass are actually in disobedience to their own Church. The Sacred Congregation of Rites supressed the recitation of the Leonine Prayers in the encyclical "Inter Oecumenici" (Section 48 j ).

The Leonine Prayers still exist except they are now suppressed, is this correct?

Yes, they still exist, but:

(i) It is forbidden to say them publicly after Mass as the group mentioned in the OP have

(ii) The prayers themselves don't actually mention Russia.

(iii) The prayers were offered from 1930-1965 for religious freedom in Russia (not it's conversion)

The original purpose of the Leonine Prayers when they were started in 1859 by Pius 1X was to pray against the suppression of the temporal powers of the Pope with the establishment of the Kingdom of Italy. In 1884, Pope Leo XIII ordered the prayers to be said after each "Low" Mass throughout the world and thus, they came to be called the "Leonine Prayers". In 1929, the Vatican City State was established, and thus the purpose of the prayers was attained, however the following year (1930) Pope Pius XI ordered that the prayers should continue to be offered "to permit tranquillity and freedom to pro­fess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia." In 1965, the prayers were suppressed by the Second Vatican Council, and at any rate, even if they were not, the intention of the prayers is no longer required.
Therefore, any Roman Catholics who recite the Leonine Prayers after Mass for any purpose are in disobedience to their own Church's Vatican Council.
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« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2009, 05:37:00 PM »

Fr Deacon Lance:


I thought the SSPX etc. had been reconciled back into the RC Church by the Pope, recently?  So they wouldn't be "schismatics "as you say, correct? Just wondering.
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« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2009, 05:41:08 PM »

Having been raised Roman Catholic via my Polish and Ukrainian background, by Bernardine Franciscan Sisters, these sisters were known to teach their own "nun" theology, like never chew the Host as you will hurt Jesus.  Never in the 12 years of my education did they ever say that the Prayer for the Conversion of Russia was to the Catholic Church, in fact, they made sure to tell us it was for their reconversion back to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2009, 05:43:28 PM »

Fr Deacon Lance:


I thought the SSPX etc. had been reconciled back into the RC Church by the Pope, recently?  So they wouldn't be "schismatics "as you say, correct? Just wondering.

The excommunication of the four Bishops was lifted, that is all.  The suspension a divinis and other canonical irregularities remain.
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« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2009, 06:17:34 PM »

Quote
I wonder what Jack Chick thinks about Orthodoxy?  I've read a few of his tracts, and he is definitely not a fan of the ROMAN(extra emphasis, just to be safe; I've seen people get in trouble) Catholic Church.  I'm sure he would disagree with Orthodox doctrines, but this seems to be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

This, of course, is not to imply that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are actually enemies.

Chick thinks the Orthodox Church is Satanic, but he doesn't hate it as much as the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2009, 06:47:12 PM »

Quote
I wonder what Jack Chick thinks about Orthodoxy?  I've read a few of his tracts, and he is definitely not a fan of the ROMAN(extra emphasis, just to be safe; I've seen people get in trouble) Catholic Church.  I'm sure he would disagree with Orthodox doctrines, but this seems to be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

This, of course, is not to imply that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are actually enemies.

Chick thinks the Orthodox Church is Satanic, but he doesn't hate it as much as the Roman Catholic Church.
Chick thinks anything he doesn't understand is Satanic, or as my students put it, "I don't get it. It's stupid."
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« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2009, 08:14:49 PM »

Always thought it was the conversion of communists...

Nope, it was always the conversion of the Orthodox. It was always the "Conquest of Holy Mother Russia."

Here is the Catholic hope for the conquest of Russia and bringing it under Roman obedience..

Have a look at the picture in the March, 1990
issue of the Catholic magazine 30 Days.

30 Days is one of Italy's best Catholic magazines and has a workldwide distribution in several languages.


The picture shows a horde of Catholic priests and nuns, with John Paul II leading them, marching into Russia, with Russian cupolas and churches in the background.

The caption is:

"Eastern Europe... Ready... Set....!

"The fall of the Iron Curtain has given the Church greater freedom of movement. The first to respond to the opportunity have been the religious orders. Their destination: the former Catholic nations. Their dream: to "conquer" Holy Mother Russia."


We are still seen as fodder for conversion.   Given the Roman requirement for all Christians to be in submission to the Holy Father this is quite understandable.
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« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2009, 08:39:45 PM »

I don't hold any wild and crazy thoughts of converting any of my Orthodox brethern to the Catholic Church...

Joining the Red Sox Nation is another matter to discuss over a cold brew and brauts...
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« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2009, 09:17:17 PM »

Dear Father,

There we have it John Paul II who thought himself to be the 'Successor of Christ' leading the march.

How many pedophiles are in the line? Is not written a tree is known by it's fruit.

What they should do is simply return to the Orthodox faith, get rid of the septicemic plague of the heresies of the papacy, let the Priests get married and have children so the children can grow up as normal minded people.

I think it is abnormal and not right to follow a 'Successor of Christ' into Orthodox Russia. I also think it is abnormal to have one scandal after another in the RC place
in the name of discipline that hurts people, especially children.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2009, 09:40:58 PM »


Hi Matthew.  Nice to see you online again.

How many pedophiles are in the line? Is not written a tree is known by it's fruit.

Don't you think this is a little unfair?  I agree that there are problems with enforced celibacy, and pedophilia is one of them, but I think this might be sensationalized by the media.  I am not even sure if the Latin Church has more problems with pedophila than some other denominations.  Plus, this really has nothing to do with the discussion, although I would like to protect children as much as anyone else.


30 Days is one of Italy's best Catholic magazines....

Really?  I've never read it, though it looks kind of militant to me.  I wonder what some of our Catholic posters think.
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« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2009, 09:52:47 PM »


30 Days is one of Italy's best Catholic magazines....

Really?  I've never read it, though it looks kind of militant to me.  I wonder what some of our Catholic posters think.

You don't follow the European papers?

Here is its homepage in the Net
http://www.30giorni.it/it/default.asp

At the top you can choose various language editions.
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« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2009, 09:53:18 PM »

Dear Father,

There we have it John Paul II who thought himself to be the 'Successor of Christ' leading the march.

How many pedophiles are in the line? Is not written a tree is known by it's fruit.

What they should do is simply return to the Orthodox faith, get rid of the septicemic plague of the heresies of the papacy, let the Priests get married and have children so the children can grow up as normal minded people.

I think it is abnormal and not right to follow a 'Successor of Christ' into Orthodox Russia. I also think it is abnormal to have one scandal after another in the RC place
in the name of discipline that hurts people, especially children.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Please keep on topic.  The sex abuse scandal within the Roman Catholic Church has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum, and I am sure you can dig up an old thread if you are not done beating the dead horse yet.  When similar abuses happen within Orthodoxy we mourn and pray, we do not use such a condescending tone since it is insulting to the victims.  Again, please stick to the topic at hand and please avoid such underhanded discussion "techniques".  Do not let it occur again.

-- Nebelpfade
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« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2009, 09:54:13 PM »


30 Days is one of Italy's best Catholic magazines....

Really?  I've never read it, though it looks kind of militant to me.  I wonder what some of our Catholic posters think.

You don't follow the European papers?

Here is its homepage in the Net
http://www.30giorni.it/it/default.asp

At the top you can choose various language editions.

Which issue did the page you posted come from?
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« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2009, 10:02:21 PM »

Which issue did the page you posted come from?

Information provided in message 41.
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« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2009, 10:09:11 PM »

What a shame. The archives only go back to 2003.
Guess we just have your word for it (again).
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« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2009, 10:22:37 PM »

What a shame. The archives only go back to 2003.
Guess we just have your word for it (again).

George, will you please stop trying to imply that I am a liar at every opportunity you get. One day you will have to answer for every idle word before the Saviour, you know.


Surely you are able to go to the library and consult the particular edition if you are so interested.   Not everything can be found on the Internet.
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« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2009, 10:33:30 PM »

Goodness me. Who said you were a liar?
Simple statement of fact: at this point we only have your word for it.
Calm down.
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« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2009, 10:39:46 PM »

What a shame. The archives only go back to 2003.
Guess we just have your word for it (again).

George, will you please stop trying to imply that I am a liar at every opportunity you get. One day you will have to answer for every idle word before the Saviour, you know.

Father bless,

I have to ask.  Has ozgeorge actually called you a liar explicitly, or are you just expressing your perception that he called you a liar?
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« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2009, 10:44:48 PM »

Dear Nebelpfade,

I don't see it as part of underhanded "techniques" at all. I remember not so long ago speaking with a Russian Orthodox Bishop who was very concerned about the Papal missionaries going to Russia and Ukraine. As a matter of fact
he sent some of the headline RC sex scandal American papers over there so
a strong movement against allowing them in might be embraced, thank God it was. Basically he advised them not to let the RC missionaries in. He loves kids.

One of the problems is that people these days are comfortable thinking that being polite no matter what is important. Most parents that love children are against behavior that is too commonly seen from the papal place.

I think that it is not right to say that part of praying and mourning excludes expressing support for victims by not bringing up how wrong the abusers are because they are power people. That is what the papacy is about, pedophiles also like exercise power. People get hurt in underhanded ways then.

Dear Pravoslavbob,

Nice to see you as well. I really don't think I'm being unfair for it much worse situation than it should be.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin



« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 10:50:25 PM by MatthewPanchisin » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2009, 10:52:32 PM »

I do like to observe these spats between Orthodox members...
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« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2009, 10:58:03 PM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

Do keep in mind that Father Ambrose has heard many confessions from dudes and Mesdames in his many years of Priestly life and his perception no doubt might do well to call others to their perceptions if they can listen.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2009, 11:00:07 PM »

What a shame. The archives only go back to 2003.
Guess we just have your word for it (again).

George, will you please stop trying to imply that I am a liar at every opportunity you get. One day you will have to answer for every idle word before the Saviour, you know.

Father bless,

I have to ask.  Has ozgeorge actually called you a liar explicitly, or are you just expressing your perception that he called you a liar?

George has called me a liar four times explicitly in recent days and if he is the Moderator who composed my Warning he has also called me a liar in the Warning by stating that I have knowingly presented false information to the Forum.  I asked for this to be corrected several days ago and still hope that it will be.  It is very distressing that a moderatorial statement which bears false witness against a priest is displayed on OC.net, would you not agree?   Those chosen as Moderators have a serious responsibilty and ought to maintain a high level of probity.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19559.msg289923.html#msg289923

IN THE NAME AND BY THE AUTHORITY OF THE MODERATORS OF OC.NET:

The duly organized, empanelled, and sworn Grand Jury of OC.net, presents in the Moderators Forum of OC.net, that in the Faith Issues Forum of OC.net, Irish Hermit, hereinafter styled Defendant, on or about the 6th Day of February, 2008, did then and there claim that the Ecumenical Patriarch did commemorate the Pope of Rome as an Orthodox Hierarch and in support thereof did show a link to a video documenting said event, and said link did not show a video of any type, and furthermore that defendant's claim was knowingly and patently false, with actual video of said event being publicly available and not containing any commemoration of the Pope of Rome,

AGAINST THE PEACE AND DIGNITY OF THE FORUM.
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« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2009, 11:01:58 PM »

Dear Jakub,

Sometimes they can be helpful.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2009, 11:02:48 PM »

I do like to observe these spats between Orthodox members...
Well, at least there's no such thing as an Orthodox paedophile (apparently).
They only exist in the Catholic Church (apparently).
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« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2009, 11:11:49 PM »

That's right ozgeorge I'm an idiot even though you are not calling me one.
What does that apparently mean to you?

In Christ,

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« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2009, 11:17:10 PM »

What a shame. The archives only go back to 2003.
Guess we just have your word for it (again).

George, will you please stop trying to imply that I am a liar at every opportunity you get. One day you will have to answer for every idle word before the Saviour, you know.

Father bless,

I have to ask.  Has ozgeorge actually called you a liar explicitly, or are you just expressing your perception that he called you a liar?

George has called me a liar four times explicitly in recent days and if he is the Moderator who composed my Warning he has also called me a liar in the Warning by stating that I have knowingly presented false information to the Forum.  I asked for this to be corrected several days ago and still hope that it will be.  It is very distressing that a moderatorial statement which bears false witness against a priest is displayed on OC.net, would you not agree?   Those chosen as Moderators have a serious responsibilty and ought to maintain a high level of probity.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19559.msg289923.html#msg289923

IN THE NAME AND BY THE AUTHORITY OF THE MODERATORS OF OC.NET:

The duly organized, empanelled, and sworn Grand Jury of OC.net, presents in the Moderators Forum of OC.net, that in the Faith Issues Forum of OC.net, Irish Hermit, hereinafter styled Defendant, on or about the 6th Day of February, 2008, did then and there claim that the Ecumenical Patriarch did commemorate the Pope of Rome as an Orthodox Hierarch and in support thereof did show a link to a video documenting said event, and said link did not show a video of any type, and furthermore that defendant's claim was knowingly and patently false, with actual video of said event being publicly available and not containing any commemoration of the Pope of Rome,

AGAINST THE PEACE AND DIGNITY OF THE FORUM.

A hint for you, Irish HermitOzgeorge didn't write that warning.  The warning was actually a team effort based on our common understanding that your lies have been publicly substantiated.  Now, are you going to go through the proper channels for complaining about the moderation here?  Another hint:  what you just did to complain publicly about it ain't it.
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« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2009, 11:22:05 PM »

That's right ozgeorge I'm an idiot even though you are not calling me one.
Are you?
I didn't think you were.

What does that apparently mean to you?
That something's upset you?
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« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2009, 11:25:27 PM »

While you guys sort this out let me quickly say, evil and wickedness know no boundaries...

Time in, commence the family feud...

Wish Richard Dawson was here...
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« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2009, 11:27:40 PM »

While you guys sort this out let me quickly say, evil and wickedness know no boundaries...
On the contrary, they do have boundaries (apparently). They are bounded by the edges of the Catholic Church. Haven't you been reading this thread?
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« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2009, 11:28:24 PM »

While you guys sort this out let me quickly say, evil and wickedness know no boundaries...

Time in, commence the family feud...

Wish Richard Dawson was here...
Notice that we just celebrated the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee, which means we are now into the season of the Lenten Triodion.  The dreaded Purple Demons have come out to play. Tongue
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« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2009, 11:29:40 PM »

What a shame. The archives only go back to 2003.
Guess we just have your word for it (again).

George, will you please stop trying to imply that I am a liar at every opportunity you get. One day you will have to answer for every idle word before the Saviour, you know.

Father bless,

I have to ask.  Has ozgeorge actually called you a liar explicitly, or are you just expressing your perception that he called you a liar?

George has called me a liar four times explicitly in recent days and if he is the Moderator who composed my Warning he has also called me a liar in the Warning by stating that I have knowingly presented false information to the Forum.  I asked for this to be corrected several days ago and still hope that it will be.  It is very distressing that a moderatorial statement which bears false witness against a priest is displayed on OC.net, would you not agree?   Those chosen as Moderators have a serious responsibilty and ought to maintain a high level of probity.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19559.msg289923.html#msg289923

IN THE NAME AND BY THE AUTHORITY OF THE MODERATORS OF OC.NET:

The duly organized, empanelled, and sworn Grand Jury of OC.net, presents in the Moderators Forum of OC.net, that in the Faith Issues Forum of OC.net, Irish Hermit, hereinafter styled Defendant, on or about the 6th Day of February, 2008, did then and there claim that the Ecumenical Patriarch did commemorate the Pope of Rome as an Orthodox Hierarch and in support thereof did show a link to a video documenting said event, and said link did not show a video of any type, and furthermore that defendant's claim was knowingly and patently false, with actual video of said event being publicly available and not containing any commemoration of the Pope of Rome,

AGAINST THE PEACE AND DIGNITY OF THE FORUM.



Im with you in this Fr. Ambrose you have my support....it's getting to a point that everything has to be politically correct just to be disscussed....just because i don't care for the vatican the pope and reunification it doesn't mean i hate them...as im accused of and warned
There own pope declared that the smoke of Satan has entered there church...so those  apparitions can be a product of it....
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« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2009, 11:31:16 PM »

Im with you in this Fr. Ambrose you have my support....it's getting to a point that everything has to be politically correct just to be disscussed....just because i don't care for the vatican the pope and reunification it doesn't mean i hate them...as im accused of and warned
There own pope declared that the smoke of Satan has entered there church...so those a apparitions are a product of it....
Are you saying that the apparitions at Fatima were apparitions of demons?
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« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2009, 11:38:52 PM »

George:

I was discussing this thread with my Priest, Fr. John Whiteford, and he certainly agrees that whatever appeared was not of God.
In the interest of decorum, and in the spirit of not insulting our RC guest, let me know, and I will PM you privately more info on what he said. Lips Sealed
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« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2009, 11:40:54 PM »

Dear ozgeorge,

That's what the Orthodox monks say, what do you think?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2009, 11:42:07 PM »

I am locking this thread for a few minutes while I sort through the posts.  Stand by.

-- Nebelpfade
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« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2009, 11:46:31 PM »

Whatever anyone thinks of Fatima, there is nothing worse than ingratitude.
For decades the Roman Catholics prayed for the freedom of our Faith in Russia.
Whatever you think of the Vatican and Roman Catholics, Pope Pius XI ordered all the faithful of his Church to pray the Leonine Prayers after every low Mass "to permit tranquillity and freedom to pro­fess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia." Thanks be to God, Who hears all prayers from sincere hearts, their prayers and ours were answered.
What have we done with this God-given freedom? Have we established the Unity of the Orthodox Church? Have we borne witness to the treasures of our Faith? No. Instead, we go on the Internet and write viscous things about one another's jurisdictions, clinging to ideas of "National Churches" as though we were Chrisimated into nations and ethnicities rather than the Church, thinking our ethnicity is holier than other ethnicities.
I tell you this: If we don't sort ourselves out soon, God will take the treasure of the Orthodox Church away from us and give it to a people who deserve it.
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« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2009, 12:13:49 AM »

 Satan didn't just enter the catholic church as smoke as the pope proclaimed at that time..he enter it fully at the time of the separation [schism],,,since then it  plotted. schemed,either to absorb or destroy holy Orthodoxy..if it wasn't for Islam. where the orthodox church had a better chance for survival and existence and protection..Rome would of wiped us out .....
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« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2009, 12:13:58 AM »

In the interest of decorum, and in the spirit of not insulting our RC guest, let me know, and I will PM you privately more info on what he said. Lips Sealed
No thank you. I already know (though I would say it was plani- that is prelest- rather than a "demonic apparition").
The only thing I wanted to hear from anyone in this thread about it was exactly what you said here:
In the interest of decorum, and in the spirit of not insulting our RC guest
Thank you for your example of charity.
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« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2009, 12:17:56 AM »

if it wasn't for Islam. where the orthodox church had a better chance for survival and existence..Rome would of wiped us out .....
Where is your faith? Is it in Islam?
Our Lord promised that even the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. Do you trust Him or do you trust Islam to protect the Church?
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« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2009, 12:22:29 AM »

i believe God allowed islam to protect us...From our own so called fellow christians............
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« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2009, 12:23:46 AM »

if it wasn't for Islam. where the orthodox church had a better chance for survival and existence..Rome would of wiped us out .....
Where is your faith? Is it in Islam?
Our Lord promised that even the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. Do you trust Him or do you trust Islam to protect the Church?
I don't trust the Vatican.
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« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2009, 12:26:01 AM »

Dear ozgeorge,

Do you think you have the treasure of Orthodoxy?

The Orthodox Church Fathers don't see things the way you do. The Orthodox Priesthood is seen as a high office, heavenly, angelic.

"For the priestly office is indeed discharged on earth, but it ranks amongst the heavenly ordinances; and very naturally so, for neither man, nor angel, nor archangel, nor any other created power, but the Paraclete Himself instituted this vocation, and persuaded men while still abiding in the flesh to represent the ministry of angels." "On the Priesthood." St John Chrysostom, N&PNF, First Series, Volume IX. p. 46.

The articulated threat that God will take the treasure of the Orthodox Church away from us and give it to a people who deserve it, does not seem to me to represent the spirit of traditional Orthodox understandings.

Theologically God loves mankind, our Orthodox Priest's will not abandon us, for it is written where your heart is there will your treasure be. In my life time I have seen some go through hell for other people and not abondon the flock and even those that are not of their flocks.

Even under the heal of the Godless communist when many Orthodox Churches had been destroyed it was ultimately the Orthodox Priests that kept things together. They bring the Eucharist through the Royal doors to us even though we don't deserve it.

It is a well known fact among the Russian Orthodox that Rome has always wanted Russia to put her under the papacy, to remove those pious hearted Russians from the Orthodox faith. Indeed Russian Orthodox Bishops to this very day have lost sleep and have been very concerned about the activities of the Protestants and the RC's.

After reading several of your post, I guess what I'm trying to convey to you is that there are older people that have been through a lot in life and may be much wiser than us.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2009, 12:29:51 AM »

It is a well known fact among the Russian Orthodox that Rome has always wanted Russia to put her under the papacy, to remove those pious hearted Russians from the Orthodox faith.
No. It isn't a "well known fact" that the that Rome wanted the "pious hearted Russians" (as opposed to those impious Arabs, Greeks, Australians, Americans, Asians etc). It is not a "well known fact" at all. It is simply something you personally believe to be true.
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« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2009, 12:33:11 AM »

if it wasn't for Islam. where the orthodox church had a better chance for survival and existence..Rome would of wiped us out .....
Where is your faith? Is it in Islam?
Our Lord promised that even the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. Do you trust Him or do you trust Islam to protect the Church?
I don't trust the Vatican.
I trust Christ.
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« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2009, 12:35:33 AM »

if it wasn't for Islam. where the orthodox church had a better chance for survival and existence..Rome would of wiped us out .....
Where is your faith? Is it in Islam?
Our Lord promised that even the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. Do you trust Him or do you trust Islam to protect the Church?
I don't trust the Vatican.


Neither do I, but nevertheless the situation is in God's hands. His will, and not ours be done.
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« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2009, 12:38:41 AM »

This section has recently erupted in a series of shameful displays and the moderation team has been bombarded with not only reported posts but private messages from a variety of posters, the vast majority being Orthodox, not Roman Catholic.  These members have expressed their deep concern over the content that appeared lately in the Orthodox-Roman Catholic section, as well as in certain other sections.  These members are Greeks, Russians, Americans, converts, cradle Orthodox, etc. and they have all said that they find that not only do such posts hurt the reputation of this site, but that of Orthodoxy as a whole.  This section is meant for civil debate and discussion concerning the similarities and differences within Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.  That means this section also functions as a second “convert” forum, in which members from a Roman Catholic background (whether Latin or Eastern rite) will read through to find answers to their questions.  We are supposed to be welcoming to these people, whether they are members, lurkers or guests.  You will not lead people to the Truth of Orthodoxy through malice filled posts, through the consistent use of straw-men nor through petty squabbles.  The internet is a powerful tool to introduce people to Orthodoxy, and though nothing will substitute the personal relationship between an inquirer and his/her Priest, too often do we have to remind people that Netodox does not equal Orthodox due to the nature of various posts.  Discussions get heated and people get passionate; this is natural, but we often have to step back and remember the audience we are playing to.  If a Roman Catholic, or Protestant, or Atheist friend were to approach you with questions, how would choose to address them and their concerns?  It is through love that you will lead these people to Christ’s Church, though an understanding of their beliefs, and often, through a gentle hand in “correcting” and guiding them. 

Now, to more specific concerns... 

Firstly, this forum is not becoming ‘politically correct’ to the point of censorship like certain members like to openly.  We try our best to maintain a welcoming environment at this forum for members of different faiths and Churches; it is no different than making this forum welcoming to all genders and all races.  The moderators prefer to take a light touch when it comes to moderation, to allow the freedom of speech and expression, but basic tact and freedom of expression do not have to be mutually exclusive!  We have been receiving countless complaints about the language and tone of certain posts.  The moderating team as a whole share the concerns with the forum members filing these reports and, as a team, we choose the best course of action.  Warnings, Post Moderations, Mutings, etc. occur after a period of discussion, unless the situation warrants a speedy correction.  There are Private, unmoderated forums in addition to the moderated forums.  If you believe your point of view is being so squelched due to the moderated nature of these forums, take them to the unmoderated forums.

Secondly, please provide proper sources and citations when formulating a response.  Gossip and hearsay do little for a discussion and create a situation in which no one can really respond, since it can be difficult to research pure speculation.  If something is solely your opinion and you have absolutely no academic grounds for it, just state so.  It will prevent drawn out exchanges between posters requesting sources and will prevent other misunderstandings.

Finally, do not air your dirty laundry over the public forum.  If you have a concern, go through the proper channels.  If you have a comment or complaint about a post or poster in this section, contact me privately.  If you have a complaint about my posts or decisions as a moderator, then ozgeorge is the global moderator overseeing this section too.  If you have a problem with a global mod, then take it one of the two administrators that focus on the forum content (both of them being ordained Priests).  Too much of this has happened lately and it needs to stop!  There is an unhealthy martyr complex appearing from some posters, and other posters appear to be wrapped up in a cult of personality of sorts.  We have a great moderator staff on this site, which I am proud and honoured to be a member of, and a great administrative staff... contact them when you have a problem. 

This turned out to be somewhat lengthy, but it applies universally to this forum, and not just this section which I look after.  The moderators are proud of their sections and we are proud of our members, but unfortunately, sometimes we do shake our heads at the behaviour we witness.  Therefore I am making this appeal, especially in light of the time we are entering on the Liturgical calendar, to all members, the Church has always been communal and welcoming, try not to do anything that will harm your soul, avoid situations where you will harm the soul of another, and lastly, provide an atmosphere to those who are not Orthodox that will enrich and enlighten their souls.  The moderating staff has and will continue to intervene in such situations where we believe more harm is being done, then good.

Thank you all.

Yours in Christ,
Nebelpfade


P.S.:  Now let us try and steer this thread back on track, and enter into a healthy discussion/debate.  Otherwise, it will likely end up locked within the next few days as it continues to spiral.
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« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2009, 12:39:20 AM »

if it wasn't for Islam. where the orthodox church had a better chance for survival and existence..Rome would of wiped us out .....
Where is your faith? Is it in Islam?
Our Lord promised that even the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. Do you trust Him or do you trust Islam to protect the Church?
I don't trust the Vatican.


Neither do I, but nevertheless the situation is in God's hands. His will, and not ours be done.
Amen!
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« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2009, 12:53:39 AM »

How come I don't get an Amen? I said practically the same thing!
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« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2009, 12:57:27 AM »

How come I don't get an Amen? I said practically the same thing!
I'll do you one better:ἀμὴν!
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« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2009, 12:59:26 AM »

How come I don't get an Amen? I said practically the same thing!
I'll do you one better:ἀμὴν!
LOL! Cheesy
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« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2009, 01:17:40 AM »

It is a well known fact among the Russian Orthodox that Rome has always wanted Russia to put her under the papacy, to remove those pious hearted Russians from the Orthodox faith.
No. It isn't a "well known fact" that the that Rome wanted the "pious hearted Russians" (as opposed to those impious Arabs, Greeks, Australians, Americans, Asians etc). It is not a "well known fact" at all. It is simply something you personally believe to be true.

This is one of the most confusing responses that I have read of late on OC.net. Even a skimming of history would show MatthewPanchisin's personal view to be coincident with historical fact. What am I missing in this dialogue and this denial?
Whether history relates specifically to Fatima I've no idea. Is that your problem George?
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« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2009, 01:20:09 AM »

Dear ozgeorge,

You have mentioned:

"No. It isn't a "well known fact" that the that Rome wanted the "pious hearted Russians" (as opposed to those impious Arabs, Greeks, Australians, Americans, Asians etc). It is not a "well known fact" at all. It is simply something you personally believe to be true."

Do keep in mind that it is not right to import a meaning that was not part of my thinking into your rendition of what I was saying.

Actually in reality it is well known fact and is not something that I simply believe personally.

I see no point in any further conversation.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2009, 01:38:26 AM »

Matthew,

A well known fact?  The same splinter group kooks that are still hoping and praying for the conversion of Russia also claim that the Russia's consecration hasn't taken place yet and this is because the Pope's must not care about the Russians.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2009, 01:39:31 AM »

our Orthodox Priest's will not abandon us

Matthew,
Our Orthodox Priests are capable of abandoning us, and this has been the case since the Early Church.
On June 9 we commemorate the Holy Nun Martyrs, Sts. Thecla, Mariamne, Martha, Mary, and Enmatha. They were Martyred in the 4th century after they refused to follow their Priest into idolatry. Before they were martyred, they spat in his face.

George
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« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2009, 07:53:20 AM »

How come I don't get an Amen? I said practically the same thing!

You don't have my good looks, Russian Convertness, and charm, George!  Grin
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« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2009, 07:59:23 AM »

I don't hold any wild and crazy thoughts of converting any of my Orthodox brethern to the Catholic Church...

Joining the Red Sox Nation is another matter to discuss over a cold brew and brauts...


We call it " beer & hot dogs" in Texas.  Grin
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« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2009, 08:09:51 AM »

I don't hold any wild and crazy thoughts of converting any of my Orthodox brethern to the Catholic Church...

Joining the Red Sox Nation is another matter to discuss over a cold brew and brauts...


We call it " beer & hot dogs" in Texas.  Grin

IIRC, Aussies would call it "a coldie - or a tinnie - and snags"  - Australian members, please correct me if I'm wrong! Don't want to insult you, given the horrific fires Down Under...
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« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2009, 12:04:15 PM »

Posts about the Council of Florence can now be found here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19708.0.html

-- Nebelpfade
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« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2009, 01:45:26 PM »

Always thought it was the conversion of communists...

Nope, it was always the conversion of the Orthodox. It was always the "Conquest of Holy Mother Russia."

Here is the Catholic hope for the conquest of Russia and bringing it under Roman obedience..

Have a look at the picture in the March, 1990
issue of the Catholic magazine 30 Days.

30 Days is one of Italy's best Catholic magazines and has a workldwide distribution in several languages.

This has a host of issues as a source. First, it's out of context: presumably this is the beginning of an article, but if so, the content of the article is missing. Second, I have no idea who publishes 30Giorni and therefore whose viewpoint is being represented. Third, this material has major "Say where you got it" problems. What I see looks like an old scan of a paper magazine of unknown provenance. Where did this image come from? If you didn't scan it yourself, then who did? What's their angle? What I see here could well be something from the nuts who want to religiously take over Russia, or it could be from a respectable journal warning that the nuts are out there.

Now, there are certainly Feeneyite/Grunerite crazies out there. One of Keble's laws of religion is that "There are no allergen-free churches." Orthodoxy has its corresponding hyperCyprianite pious tale-passers, so you might want to put the stone down until you get the Lexan storm windows up. So far, though, the evidence is stacking up that the claims being made are either (a) flatly untrue, or (b) exaggerated to the extent of being essentially untrue, or (c) represent to views/policies of fringe elements with no Vatican approbation. The time has come for the people who started passing these tales to either pony up some real, solid evidence, or admit that they've been caught passing derogatory rumors.
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« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2009, 01:54:10 PM »

I would like to mention that Sister Lucia, one of the three children to receive the apparitions of the Theotokos at Fatima, was asked in 1946 by a young Russian pilgrim (Natacha Derfelden) at Fatima how the conversion of Russia would take place.

Sister Lucia replied that it would happen through the Orthodox Church and the "Oriental rite" (i.e., Byzantine) of the Catholic Church.




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« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2009, 02:23:23 PM »

I would like to mention that Sister Lucia, one of the three children to receive the apparitions of the Theotokos at Fatima, was asked in 1946 by a young Russian pilgrim (Natacha Derfelden) at Fatima how the conversion of Russia would take place.

Sister Lucia replied that it would happen through the Orthodox Church and the "Oriental rite" (i.e., Byzantine) of the Catholic Church.



So then it does have to do with the conversion of Russia to accept papal authority?  One gets so confused by the contradictions that come out of Rome and the Vatican!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2009, 04:11:14 PM »

I would like to mention that Sister Lucia, one of the three children to receive the apparitions of the Theotokos at Fatima, was asked in 1946 by a young Russian pilgrim (Natacha Derfelden) at Fatima how the conversion of Russia would take place.

Sister Lucia replied that it would happen through the Orthodox Church and the "Oriental rite" (i.e., Byzantine) of the Catholic Church.



So then it does have to do with the conversion of Russia to accept papal authority?  One gets so confused by the contradictions that come out of Rome and the Vatican!

Orthodoc


I've never heard this account before, but nonetheless, it seems to support the Christ vs. Atheistic Communism point of view, rather than Orthodox vs. Roman Catholic one.
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« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2009, 04:37:18 PM »

Since this is really beginning to irritate me I'd like to point out that I have plenty of room to demand that both the pope and the patriarchs of the east should get out of the U.K., since it's our territory (well, except for Scotland, which belongs to those Presbyterians).

"Lucky for you we're C of E!"
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« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2009, 05:34:04 PM »

Since this is really beginning to irritate me I'd like to point out that I have plenty of room to demand that both the pope and the patriarchs of the east should get out of the U.K., since it's our territory (well, except for Scotland, which belongs to those Presbyterians).

"Lucky for you we're C of E!"

I remember that some Orthodox Church got title to an old decrepid church that happened to have some relics/remains of some canonized Saxon king. When the government got wind of the oversite, they asked for the bones.  The Church said, "our king, our saint, our relics," and refused.

There still seems to be some interdict on any bishops but the C of E for any historic sees.  From what's to be seen, it seems the UK is becoming virgin territory for the Gospel.  How ironic, after the London Bible Society came to us to "bring Christ."
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« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2009, 06:00:12 PM »

I would like to mention that Sister Lucia, one of the three children to receive the apparitions of the Theotokos at Fatima, was asked in 1946 by a young Russian pilgrim (Natacha Derfelden) at Fatima how the conversion of Russia would take place.

Sister Lucia replied that it would happen through the Orthodox Church and the "Oriental rite" (i.e., Byzantine) of the Catholic Church.



So then it does have to do with the conversion of Russia to accept papal authority?  One gets so confused by the contradictions that come out of Rome and the Vatican!

Orthodoc


I've never heard this account before, but nonetheless, it seems to support the Christ vs. Atheistic Communism point of view, rather than Orthodox vs. Roman Catholic one.

Really!  My interpretation is the exact opposite. What it tells me she was implying is that unity would come in effect by an accepted unia as the part of an agreeement between both churches.
How much do you know about what happened when this 'U' church was fromed and how it came about?

The Ukrainian Catholic Church has already proposed an Orthodox Church that was under both the EP amd Pope at the same time!  This was rejected by both.

Off hand this reply makes no sense if this young girl didn't even know Russia was a country when she asked for the prayers.

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« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2009, 06:02:20 PM »

Since this is really beginning to irritate me I'd like to point out that I have plenty of room to demand that both the pope and the patriarchs of the east should get out of the U.K., since it's our territory (well, except for Scotland, which belongs to those Presbyterians).

"Lucky for you we're C of E!"

I remember that some Orthodox Church got title to an old decrepid church that happened to have some relics/remains of some canonized Saxon king. When the government got wind of the oversite, they asked for the bones.  The Church said, "our king, our saint, our relics," and refused.

There still seems to be some interdict on any bishops but the C of E for any historic sees.  From what's to be seen, it seems the UK is becoming virgin territory for the Gospel.  How ironic, after the London Bible Society came to us to "bring Christ."

Think it was the relics of St Edward that were being kept in the run down church.

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« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2009, 07:42:12 PM »

While you guys sort this out let me quickly say, evil and wickedness know no boundaries...
On the contrary, they do have boundaries (apparently). They are bounded by the edges of the Catholic Church. Haven't you been reading this thread?

I'm a maverick arghh, Palin worn that out... laugh
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« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2009, 07:43:25 PM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 

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« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2009, 08:14:15 PM »

I remember that some Orthodox Church got title to an old decrepid church that happened to have some relics/remains of some canonized Saxon king. When the government got wind of the oversite, they asked for the bones.  The Church said, "our king, our saint, our relics," and refused.

There still seems to be some interdict on any bishops but the C of E for any historic sees.  From what's to be seen, it seems the UK is becoming virgin territory for the Gospel.  How ironic, after the London Bible Society came to us to "bring Christ."

If you're talking about the relics of Edward the Martyr, this isn't even remotely what happened. The relics in question were removed from a church in 1931 during archaeological excavations. When the discoverer went to donate them to a ROCOR parish (brotherhood?) in England, a wide range of controversies erupted. It's hard to get a straight story on this because the only sources I can find are on the Orthodox side, and they aren't consistent; but it does seem that the C of E did put in a claim, along with others claiming that they weren't the true relics, still others that claimed the church in those days was using the filioque (and that therefore he wasn't a saint), and I may have missed a few parties. The relics sat in a bank vault until the legal/hagiographical/forensic dust settled, at which time the ROCOR parish did receive them.
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« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2009, 10:23:33 PM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 


1. Fatima is a private revelation and Catholics don't have to believe it.
2. According to sister Lucy, the consecration has already been done.
3. The older theology as given above by Irish Hermit has been superceded by the Balamad document which mentions the need for "a will to pardon" .
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« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2009, 11:04:01 PM »

Dear Stanley123,

What you are saying doesn't make much sense over here. If Fatima is a private revelation and Catholics don't have to believe it, then what do you all do when you go to an Our Lady of Fatima parish to celebrate the feast day that is on the Roman Catholic "Universal" that is, worldwide official liturgical calander.

It would seem strange to me for Catholics to say "We here but we don't have to believe this Fatima worldwide celebration within the RC community that is on the calander."

Is this part of the newer 'theology', how do they see it? It seems rather confusing or deluded to me, I would think if something like a 'feast day' is on your calander to embrace you would have to believe it to properly celebrate it.



In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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« Reply #106 on: February 13, 2009, 11:20:17 PM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 


Sources?
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« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2009, 12:15:47 AM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 


Sources?


Sources?Huh??  I think Father Ambrose provided the sources!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2009, 01:02:28 AM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 


Sources?


Sources?Huh??  I think Father Ambrose provided the sources!

Orthodoc
No, what Fr. Ambrose provided was excerpts from sources--proof texts, if you will.  I'm hoping for links to the whole documents so we can read the sources ourselves and cross-reference what he snipped against the documents from which he cut his snippets.
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« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2009, 01:08:24 AM »

http://www.byzantinecatholic.org/
http://www.byzantinecatholic.org/AboutUs/FrKarl.html

Quote
History of Our Lady of Fatima Church
Rev. Hieromonk Karl Patzel, S.J.
Jesuit Magazine, 1970

On the corner of Lake Street and 20th Avenue, in San Francisco's Richmond District, stands a pleasant, substantial mansion and enclosed garden. The house contains the Chapel of Our Lady of Fatima, a research library, and meeting rooms. The garden surrounds the outdoor shrine of Our Lady of Fatima. Both are surmounted by the familiar onionshaped cupolas peculiar to Russian churches, each topped with the distinctive Russian cross.

This foundation is of recent origin and was not the first attempt to establish a center of Russian Catholic spirituality in San Francisco. This house was bought for that purpose in March 1955, but the graphic story of the origin, growth and development of Our Lady of Fatima Russian Center began in 1950, with the aim of caring for the Russian exiles who had been uprooted from their old civilization in Russia with the advent of Communism. After years of sojourn in China and the Philippines, these people had arrived in San Francisco, bringing with them a history of endurance, courage and tenacity to their faith and traditions.

During the year 1950, the idea of founding in San Francisco a place for Catholic presence among the Russians assumed more concrete form. It began with the arrival of Father Fionan Brannigan, S.J. and of ships from China with Russian refugees. Father Feodor Wilcock, S.J. joined him in May 1952. Both were Byzantine Rite Jesuits, trained in Rome for the Russian Apostolate. Now they were working with the Russian Diaspora in San Francisco.

These priests went frequently to the port to meet ships from the Philippine Islands, Tubabao and Hong Kong. They met the lonely immigrants, some of whom were Catholic, and blessed them in their own language, giving them strength and courage to accept their life in a strange new land. Both priests were convinced that a distinctly Russian Catholic Church of the Byzantine Rite was needed to be a vital force in the life of these people and to preserve their religious traditions.
Father Bock had been the Czar's last envoy to the Vatican. Later, he became a Catholic and joined the Society of Jesus. It was in those days that Bishop Guilfoyle wrote about a "Russian Dolores", because it was at Mission Dolores that Father Bock celebrated the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is called in the Byzantine Rite). Mission Dolores, founded by the Spanish Padres, now echoed with Slavonic liturgical melodies.Many Russian people and the Knights of Columbus helped selflessly, in countless evening and Saturday shifts, to repair and reshape the house. The entry to the house became the entrance to the chapel. A new entrance had to he made on Lake Street for the rest of the house. On October 14. 1956. the house and the chapel were solemnly blessed by Bishop Donahue in honor of Our Lady of Fatima. This name was chosen because of the Mother of God's intense interest in the conversion of expressed by her prophecy to the three children of Fatima in Portugal: "Russia will he converted.

The principal aim is, and was from its very beginning, to serve the spiritual, educational and welfare needs of the Russian colony; to provide religious leadership; to offer encouragementto the Russian faithful in the practice of their religion; and to serve as an agency of assistance in their various needs. Our secondary aim is to acquaint Latin Rite Catholics with the Byzantine Rite and to offer those not of Russian nationality an opportunity to participate in the Russian spiritual heritage.

These are some of the ways the Byzantine Jesuits at the Russian Center (who are, of course, affiliated with the University of San Francisco) fulfill the spiritual and sometimes the material needs of the citizens of Russian origin in San Francisco.

A few words about the division of the Russian colony withregard to their religious affiliations may help give some understanding of the various Russian churches. Russians are usually assumed to be of Russian Orthodox faith. However, here in San Francisco, as in all of North and South America, the Russian Orthodox were split into three jurisdictions: (1) Russian Americans, with the Cathedral of the Holy Trinity at Van Ness Avenue and Green Street; (2) the Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia (the Emigrant Church), at the Holy Virgin Cathedral, Geary Boulevard and 26th Avenues; (3) the Church loyal to the Patriarch of Moscow, St. Nicholas Cathedral is located on 15th Street near Market. All three jurisdictions had observers at the recent Vatican Council.

In conversations with many Orthodox Russians, I have to answer numerous questions about the Catholic Church. Not long ago, I had a discussion with an Orthodox lady, recently arrived from Brazil, which could be of wide interest. She complained about a certain narrowness she had encountered among some of her new friends. She said she had been threatened with excommunication if she dared to attend a church other than her own. I reminded her that among Russians in San Francisco, as among other people, there are those of different frames of mind. There are those like Simeon, longingly expecting the Saviour, who look forward to His return. These people are of the past, for the future belongs to those who work and sacrifice for the unity of Christians. As a warrant, we have the word of Our Lord: "One flock and one shepherd" (Jn 10:16). His prayer for unity among His Apostles on the evening before His own sacrifice was simply a prophecy.

From another angle also, we learn from the Apostle John that God is Love. Everyone knows from his own experience that love is the principle of unity even here on earth. People in love want to he together. The literature of all nations is full of examples of this fact. Relatives travel thousands of miles to be together. The opposite principle is hatred, the principle of divisiveness, which poisons relations between people. This is the work of the devil (from the Greek "diabolos"-the slanderer-and, as we remember, he was a liar from the beginning). This line of thought is easily applied to the question of ecumenism, mentioned above. Realizing all this, our Center has become a place where we work with all our strength for unity among Christians, striving to promote this unity among Russians and all Christians: "Ut omnes unum sint" (Jn 17:20).

Quote
The Religion of Russia

There are two theories in regard to the early Christianity of Russia; according to one of them, Russia was Catholic from the times when she embraced Christianity until the twelfth century; the other holds that Russia was always Orthodox, i.e., an adherent of the Greek schism, from the time when Christian missionaries first crossed her frontiers.

The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm
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« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2009, 01:26:44 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2009, 01:53:18 AM »


Sources?Huh??  I think Father Ambrose provided the sources!

Orthodoc

I agree; the sources are there. Maybe not via convenient hypertext links, but then hard copy publication footnotes and bibliography are not convenient either.
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« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2009, 02:01:41 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin




I agree with the above ...Please  Show respect To Our Saintly Father Ambrose...
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« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2009, 02:02:20 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin



Thank you Matthew for saying what needed to be said.  I have never seen so much disrespect for a beloved Orthodox clergyman as I have read here in the past few weeks.  I can't help wonder why this is so.  Is it because of people who are new to the faith and still don't quite understand the Orthodox ethos?  

Go in any Roman Catholic discussion group and see how long anyone would last (Roman Catholic or non Roman Catholic) if they treated a RC  priest as  Fr Ambrose has been treated by some here.  And by moderators no less!

This conception that if we defend the faith we are preceived as nasty & arrogant and will turn people away is ridiculous.  If that were true we wouldn't have been banned from the Catholic Answers Forum due to the amount of people who were showing interest in Orthodoxy or converting to Orthodoxy because of our defending the Orthodox Catholic faith!

I can imagine what the reaction to this post will be by some, but my heart aches for the way a man of the cloth that I have learned so much from, and have such love and respect for, with nothing being done.  I was edited for using the 'U' word but there was absolutely no editing done of the vile words and name calling by one of the moderators here.

Once again, thanks for saying what needed to be said.  You were much more civil than I would have been.  But then again, I'm not know for sugar coating my words just to impress someone.

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« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2009, 02:11:03 AM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 


Sources?


Sources?Huh??  I think Father Ambrose provided the sources!

Orthodoc
No, what Fr. Ambrose provided was excerpts from sources--proof texts, if you will.  I'm hoping for links to the whole documents so we can read the sources ourselves and cross-reference what he snipped against the documents from which he cut his snippets.

Then perhaps you should have worded it that way or sent him a PM.

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« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2009, 02:14:25 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin


For one thing, Matthew--and I say the following also to Orthodoc and stashko, who posted replies while I typed this--Fr. Ambrose is not the only priest on this forum.  You may notice that two of our Admins, Fr. Anastasios and Fr. Chris, are both priests, which I've verified from sources outside this forum.

Secondly, anyone can claim to be a priest online, and, without outside sources, I am forced to either take him at his word or not.  I say this not to imply that Irish Hermit is, in fact, not whom he claims to be; I'm actually granting him the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he is.  Even so, I have seen nothing from any outside sources that confirm beyond any reasonable doubt that Irish Hermit is really the Hieromonk Ambrose.

Third, even a priest must be held to the same outside standard of truth to which all Orthodox must submit.  Assuming that Irish Hermit is indeed a priest, his identity and priestly office does not automatically give him unquestionable authority on all matters pertaining to Orthodox faith or relations with non-Orthodox churches.  This is especially true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.
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« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2009, 02:19:54 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin



Thank you Matthew for saying what needed to be said.  I have never seen so much disrespect for a beloved Orthodox clergyman as I have read here in the past few weeks.  I can't help wonder why this is so.  Is it because of people who are new to the faith and still don't quite understand the Orthodox ethos?  

Go in any Roman Catholic discussion group and see how long anyone would last (Roman Catholic or non Roman Catholic) if they treated a RC  priest as  Fr Ambrose has been treated by some here.  And by moderators no less!

This conception that if we defend the faith we are preceived as nasty & arrogant and will turn people away is ridiculous.  If that were true we wouldn't have been banned from the Catholic Answers Forum due to the amount of people who were showing interest in Orthodoxy or converting to Orthodoxy because of our defending the Orthodox Catholic faith!

I can imagine what the reaction to this post will be by some, but my heart aches for the way a man of the cloth that I have learned so much from, and have such love and respect for, with nothing being done.  I was edited for using the 'U' word but there was absolutely no editing done of the vile words and name calling by one of the moderators here.

Once again, thanks for saying what needed to be said.  You were much more civil than I would have been.  But then again, I'm not know for sugar coating my words just to impress someone.

Orthodoc


I also Agree with this ..very well put...............
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« Reply #117 on: February 14, 2009, 02:24:54 AM »

It's Getting to a point on this forum when defending The True Ancient Orthodox Way,,, Not the watered Down version ,,were labeled hateful.....
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« Reply #118 on: February 14, 2009, 02:27:33 AM »

Okay, are you guys going to return to the topic of this thread, or are you going to continue to use this thread to air your dirty laundry against the work of the Moderator team in direct violation of Nebelpfade's directive that you stop this?  In case you have forgotten, let me refer you to this post:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19681.msg292156.html#msg292156
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« Reply #119 on: February 14, 2009, 02:35:34 AM »

Third, even a priest must be held to the same outside standard of truth to which all Orthodox must submit.  Assuming that Irish Hermit is indeed a priest, his identity and priestly office does not automatically give him unquestionable authority on all matters pertaining to Orthodox faith or relations with non-Orthodox churches.  This is especially true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.
Additional comment:  Did not the evangelist St. Luke actually praise the Bereans for looking to the Scriptures to verify that what St. Paul preached to them was indeed true?  For not trusting St. Paul MERELY because he claimed to be an Apostle?  (See Acts 17:11)  I think the same applies here as regards our responsibility to verify Fr. Ambrose's word against the witness of outside sources.
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« Reply #120 on: February 14, 2009, 02:40:09 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin


For one thing, Matthew--and I say the following also to Orthodoc and stashko, who posted replies while I typed this--Fr. Ambrose is not the only priest on this forum.  You may notice that two of our Admins, Fr. Anastasios and Fr. Chris, are both priests, which I've verified from sources outside this forum.

Secondly, anyone can claim to be a priest online, and, without outside sources, I am forced to either take him at his word or not.  I say this not to imply that Irish Hermit is, in fact, not whom he claims to be; I'm actually granting him the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he is.  Even so, I have seen nothing from any outside sources that confirm beyond any reasonable doubt that Irish Hermit is really the Hieromonk Ambrose.

Third, even a priest must be held to the same outside standard of truth to which all Orthodox must submit.  Assuming that Irish Hermit is indeed a priest, his identity and priestly office does not automatically give him unquestionable authority on all matters pertaining to Orthodox faith or relations with non-Orthodox churches.  This is especially true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.

 Fr.Anastasios and Fr.Chris never showed us there ordination paper's and i would never ever ask them too..Il show them respect when writing to them by addressing them  Fr.  Bless...They told us they are clergy and in respect  i take there word For it...
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« Reply #121 on: February 14, 2009, 02:47:51 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin


For one thing, Matthew--and I say the following also to Orthodoc and stashko, who posted replies while I typed this--Fr. Ambrose is not the only priest on this forum.  You may notice that two of our Admins, Fr. Anastasios and Fr. Chris, are both priests, which I've verified from sources outside this forum.

Secondly, anyone can claim to be a priest online, and, without outside sources, I am forced to either take him at his word or not.  I say this not to imply that Irish Hermit is, in fact, not whom he claims to be; I'm actually granting him the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he is.  Even so, I have seen nothing from any outside sources that confirm beyond any reasonable doubt that Irish Hermit is really the Hieromonk Ambrose.

Third, even a priest must be held to the same outside standard of truth to which all Orthodox must submit.  Assuming that Irish Hermit is indeed a priest, his identity and priestly office does not automatically give him unquestionable authority on all matters pertaining to Orthodox faith or relations with non-Orthodox churches.  This is especially true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.

 Fr.Anastasios and Fr.Chris never showed us there ordination paper's and i would never ever ask them too..Il show them respect when writing to them by addressing them  Fr.  Bless...They told us they are clergy and in respect  i take there word For it...

If anyone questioned Fr Ambrose and his background all they had to do is ask him for his background.  He was born in Ireland and  is a convert from Roman Catholicism who spent years in the Serbian Orthodox Church in the Balkans and is now in ROCOR and living in New Zealand.  But I should let him decide if further info on his background is necessary -

http://www.orthodoxchurch.org.nz/parishes.php

Wellington:Christ the Saviour Church
62 Darlington Rd
Miramar
Hieromonk Fr Ambrose
   

Orthodoc

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« Reply #122 on: February 14, 2009, 03:15:39 AM »

Dear Bob,

You don't happen to have his phone number so we can check him out? I have been trying to get it to no avail. I thought maybe he is back in that cave on the cliff in Serbia again but he took a laptop.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2009, 03:22:23 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

While much of what you say compels me to wonder how old you are and most certainly leads me to conclude that your knowledge of the Orthodox Church is less than others. I take you at your word that you are an Orthodox Christian. Should you or others feel comfortable implying that Father Ambrose is a fraud and that he is less than honest from the external sources you rely on then yours and the delusions of others will continue. That is how people can become comfortable for now calling a much beloved Priest a liar and other things.

You have mentioned:

Third, even a priest must be held to the same outside standard of truth to which all Orthodox must submit. 

This is a notion that is quite far from Orthodox understandings. The standard of truth that is difficult for you to discern does not come from outside standards of truth.

You have also mentioned:

Assuming that Irish Hermit is indeed a priest, his identity and priestly office does not automatically give him unquestionable authority on all matters pertaining to Orthodox faith or relations with non-Orthodox churches.  This is especially true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.

Father Ambrose actually used to represent the Serbian Orthodox Church in 'Ecumenical talks' that was at the request of my current bishop and his former bishopsome years ago now. His reputation with the Synod of Bishops at ROCOR is well known. He is also much beloved in and has never been seen as dishonest with other jurisdictions.

My former bishop Archbishop Alypy (ROCOR) is well aware of his internet activities. He gave me blessing to participate on the CA Forum after I mentioned Father Ambrose we be there as well so that Bob and I could obey my bishop at the time and "try to stop the uniates from telling lies."
We painted an icon for Bob. Bob liked it, Saint Job if my memory serves me correctly.

You see the internal sources that do not think that he is less than honest think very highly of him. Could you explain to me the nature of the disconnection you are experiencing relative to your thoughts on Father Ambrose in comparison to the thoughts of many Orthodox Bishops, brother Orthodox Priests, Roman Catholic Priests and others that he has enjoyed such a wonderful relationship with over many years now? How long have you known him and how is it that you are not capable of discerning an Orthodox Priests Priesthood? Is something wrong there since you'll can only assume it?

Perhaps you might want to consider that the external source that you rely on can be falsified by you since you use them to falsely to say that Father Ambrose might not be a Priest and true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.

In the Orthodox Christian tradition we look to the internal source such things should rightly be addressed from within the realm of Orthodox ascetical theology.

Ok Peter the Aluet, back to Fatima, your comode rator Ozgeorge has mentioned:

Are you saying that the apparitions at Fatima were apparitions of demons?

St Gregory of Sinai mentions the below and Orthodox monks and Priestmonks of these days would agree with St. Gregory.

"If while engaged in spiritual work you see a light or a fire outside you, or a form supposedly of Christ or of an angel or of someone else, reject it lest you suffer harm. And do not pay court to images, lest you allow them to stamp themselves on your intellect. For all these things that externally and inopportunely assume various guises do so in order to delude your soul."

You see Peter your heart is inside you. Do me a favor remember the good Father Ambrose in your prayers you might see a Celtic Cross sometime so that your soul is not confused.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2009, 03:26:09 AM »

Okay, this thread is starting to turn into a discussion of Irish Hermit and his credentials, which is a deviation from the topic of this thread (i.e., the alleged Fatima appearance of the Theotokos) and a violation of the spirit of Nebelpfade's directive (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19681.msg292156.html#msg292156).  Therefore, I am locking this thread pending Nebelpfade's final word on this matter.
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« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2009, 10:11:44 AM »

This thread has gone off topic for the last time, it will stay locked.

Also, all members are held to the same standards on this forum.  If you provide us with information, a proper source is expected.  This is done to encourage proper debate and discussion but is also the direct request by our administrators Fr. Anastasios and Fr. Chris, both ordained Orthodox Priests.  If you have qualm with their policies, you will have to bring it up with them, for moderators merely enforce the rules.

If you have a complaint or issue with my moderating decisions, please PM ozgeorge or Fr. Chris about it.

-- Nebelpfade
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