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Author Topic: Fatima Once Again  (Read 11452 times) Average Rating: 0
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Orthodoc
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« on: February 11, 2009, 07:44:25 PM »


On another website administered by one of the sui juris churches of Roman Catholic Chuch the topic of Fatima came up once again.

The discussion once again stated that the praying for the conversion of Russia that was so prevelent in the 50's was for the conversion of Russia from communism. Rather (contrary to what my friends, neighbors, & classmates used to tell me) the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism.

However there were two replies from those within the papal Catholic Church who replied that -

1)  The prayers for the conversion of Russia are still part of the Rosary and are still said by traitional Roman Catholics.

2)The other reply (and I quote) says the following - "we still pray for consecration. In fact, after every Low Mass, the priest descends the altar to pray the Leonine Prayers with the people for the consecration of Russia."

Perhaps some of our posters who are part of this church can answer the question on WHY THESE PRAYERS are still being said now that communism is no longer in control in Russia and the Orthodox Catholic Church is expanding by leaps and bounds (see the statics of the growth of the Orthodox Church under +Alexy of blessed memory).  Especially since the exact opposite is happening in the west by this very church.

It does get confusing when one reads such contradictory statements.

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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2009, 08:05:43 PM »


On another website administered by one of the sui juris churches of Roman Catholic Chuch the topic of Fatima came up once again.

The discussion once again stated that the praying for the conversion of Russia that was so prevelent in the 50's was for the conversion of Russia from communism. Rather (contrary to what my friends, neighbors, & classmates used to tell me) the conversion of Russia to Roman Catholicism.

However there were two replies from those within the papal Catholic Church who replied that -

1)  The prayers for the conversion of Russia are still part of the Rosary and are still said by traitional Roman Catholics.

2)The other reply (and I quote) says the following - "we still pray for consecration. In fact, after every Low Mass, the priest descends the altar to pray the Leonine Prayers with the people for the consecration of Russia."

Perhaps some of our posters who are part of this church can answer the question on WHY THESE PRAYERS are still being said now that communism is no longer in control in Russia and the Orthodox Catholic Church is expanding by leaps and bounds (see the statics of the growth of the Orthodox Church under +Alexy of blessed memory).  Especially since the exact opposite is happening in the west by this very church.

It does get confusing when one reads such contradictory statements.

Orthodoc



That is certainly an interesting question. I wouldn't mind knowing the answer myself.
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2009, 08:10:08 PM »

Really, I think this is an over-reaction and overkill.
The fact is that those who are saying the Leonine Prayers after Mass are actually in disobedience to their own Church. The Sacred Congregation of Rites supressed the recitation of the Leonine Prayers in the encyclical "Inter Oecumenici" (Section 48 j ).
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 09:12:58 PM »

Orthodoc,

Instead of relying on hearsay thirdhand info and questionable websites, why don't you go to a reputable source?  For example:
http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/BVM.htm

You can read an exact transcription of the apparitions.  The relevant one about Russia:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.

We then looked up at Our Lady, who said to us so kindly and so sadly:

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."


After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."

http://212.77.1.247/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

I took the liberty of adding the the third part which was not revealed publically until later.

The Fatima prayer which may be added to (but not an official part of) the Rosary is: O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need. (of thy mercy.)

Sr Lucia confirmed the Consecration of Russia took place in 1984 by Pope John Paul II and the fall of Communism and resurgence of the Russian Church was proof of such.  There is a disobedient movement called the Fatima Network, headed by Fr. Nicholas Gruner whose priestly faculties are suspended http://www.fatima.org/, not to be confused with the Vatican recognized Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima http://www.wafusa.org/.  Fr. Gruner's group claims the 84 consecration was invalid, Russia is still controlled by Communists, and the Russian Orthodox Church is a Communist run farce and that prayer for the conversion of Russia to Catholicism is a must, but will not be affected until a Pope and every Catholic bishop consecrates Russia according to their criteria.  Some Catholics are duped by this organization and spout its rhetoric but this is not the fault of the Catholic Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 09:53:27 PM »

Always thought it was the conversion of communists...
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2009, 09:55:35 PM »

Of course it the fault of the catholic church for promoting this satanic apparition that point's to her .....this satanic vision didn't know that the Theotokos was greatly loved and honored by the russian faithful ..the theotokos versus satan....
 This is an Orthodox Christian forum.  You do not have to agree with the Roman Catholic Church, but must still show tact and decorum to others.  Your posts often have strong undertones of malice rather than love.  This has been a continuing trend that must end.  Please contact ozgeorge or Fr. Chris if you fell that this warning is in error.

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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2009, 10:12:53 PM »

Jakub,

The "error" of Russia spoken of in the apparition is Communism not Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2009, 10:15:14 PM »

Stashko,

I fail to see what the devotion of those Russians who remained faithful has to do with the fact that Communists took over Russia and did spread her error throughout the world to places like Serbia.

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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2009, 10:19:22 PM »

Of course it the fault of the catholic church for promoting this satanic apparition that point's to her .....this satanic vision didn't know that the Theotokos was greatly loved and honored by the russian faithful ..the theotokos versus satan....
You shouldn't call the Our Blessed Mother Satan, even if you are not a fan of hers.
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2009, 10:26:58 PM »

That's not the Blessed Mother.....We know Who the Blessed Mother is that was Handed to us through the centry's by the holy Fathers...this apparition is not it...this is something not know to the ancient Holy Orthodox church....
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 10:31:19 PM »

That's not the Blessed Mother.....We know Who the Blessed Mother is that was Handed to us through the centry's by the holy Fathers...this apparition is not it...this is something not know to the ancient Holy Orthodox church....

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 10:31:29 PM »

Stashko,

I fail to see what the devotion of those Russians who remained faithful has to do with the fact that Communists took over Russia and did spread her error throughout the world to places like Serbia.

Fr. Deacon Lance


thay were brain washed by the roman catholic masquerading as orthodox clergy..to fragment it and created this eastern catholic church...its happened in a lot of orthodox country's..
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 10:36:07 PM »

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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2009, 10:37:58 PM »

Of course it the fault of the catholic church for promoting this satanic apparition that point's to her .....this satanic vision didn't know that the Theotokos was greatly loved and honored by the russian faithful ..the theotokos versus satan....
You shouldn't call the Our Blessed Mother Satan, even if you are not a fan of hers.


I am guessing that he is not calling the Theotokos, Satan, only the apparition appearing as her.
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2009, 10:47:30 PM »

Stashko,

I fail to see what the devotion of those Russians who remained faithful has to do with the fact that Communists took over Russia and did spread her error throughout the world to places like Serbia.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Serbia was never under the iron curtin,, people moved and travel anywhere in the world they wanted.....tito broke away from russia in the 50's..this phoney vision failed to mention this to you because it didn't know it...
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2009, 10:57:04 PM »

You lost me on the Catholic clergy masquerading as Orthodox clergy...is this part of the Fascist Catholics turn Orthodox gold into Jewish diamonds conspiracy? Roll Eyes

Russia was the first Communist nation and they managed to spread this infection to all the other Slav nations,  Serbia included.  Being part of the Warsaw Pact has nothing to do with it, having your nation run by an athiestic Communist government does.

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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2009, 10:59:30 PM »

Jesuits.....
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2009, 11:16:10 PM »

What? I've seen these conspiracies from Chick Tracts, I never thought many Orthodox Christians believed them.
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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2009, 11:17:18 PM »

Still don't get.  Are you saying it was the Jesuits who enabled the Communists to take over Russia?
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« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2009, 11:26:01 PM »

There are several conspiracies. One (from Chick publications) says that the Pope created communism (Karl Marx must have been a secret Jesuit or something) in order to destroy the Orthodox Church. "Seeing this didn't work" the Pope supposedly created Nazism to try and destroy the Russian Orthodox again. I thought this was just a Fundy-Baptist theory, but I guess they're not the only ones who believe it.

Another weird one is the Jews supposedly took over Russia posing as atheists to destroy the Orthodox Church.

Others have mixed it around to form their own theories, but they are all just as strange.
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2009, 11:34:45 PM »

Orthodoc,

Instead of relying on hearsay thirdhand info and questionable websites, why don't you go to a reputable source?  For example:
http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/BVM.htm

You can read an exact transcription of the apparitions.  The relevant one about Russia:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.

We then looked up at Our Lady, who said to us so kindly and so sadly:

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."


After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."

http://212.77.1.247/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

I took the liberty of adding the the third part which was not revealed publically until later.

The Fatima prayer which may be added to (but not an official part of) the Rosary is: O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need. (of thy mercy.)

Sr Lucia confirmed the Consecration of Russia took place in 1984 by Pope John Paul II and the fall of Communism and resurgence of the Russian Church was proof of such.  There is a disobedient movement called the Fatima Network, headed by Fr. Nicholas Gruner whose priestly faculties are suspended http://www.fatima.org/, not to be confused with the Vatican recognized Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima http://www.wafusa.org/.  Fr. Gruner's group claims the 84 consecration was invalid, Russia is still controlled by Communists, and the Russian Orthodox Church is a Communist run farce and that prayer for the conversion of Russia to Catholicism is a must, but will not be affected until a Pope and every Catholic bishop consecrates Russia according to their criteria.  Some Catholics are duped by this organization and spout its rhetoric but this is not the fault of the Catholic Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance



Because I learned a long time ago that EWTN is far from reliable.  You still haven't answered why after the fall of communism that the prayers are still receited after 'low mass' or why it is part of the rosary as these Roman Catholic posters claim on the website mentioned.  Or why this apparition asked for Russia to consecrated to her when Russia had more churches dedicated to the Virgin Mary than any other country in the world.  This is why you will never convince an Orthodox Slav of the validity of this farce.  And, anyone of us who were around from the fifties on, remember very well from our  RC friends and neighbors why they were going to church to pray for the conversion of Russia.  We were told this constantly until ecumenist movement came about when things suddenly changed.  I remember Bishop Sheen saying on TV he would like to live long enough to be able to serve mass in St Basil's Cathedral on Red Square.  I heard it with my own ears.  We all know he was a bi-ritualist so how could he have served mass in an Orthodox Cathedral as a Roman Catholic bishop if the cathedral remained Orthodox?

==============

Facts regarding Mary And Her Centuries Ties To Russia -

Russia has been traditionally known as "the House of Holy Mary", and
God's Mother has been regarded as the holy protectress of Russia for
centuries. There were more churches devoted to Her Nativity,
Presentation, Annunciation, Assumption, and Intercession than to
important events from the life of Christ. Many more churches were
built to honour the holy images of God's Mother, such as "Our Lady of
Vladimir", "Our Lady of Smolensk", and "Our Lady of Kazan".

The cult of God's Mother was introduced to Russia by Andrei
Bogolyubski who brought to his new capital the Byzantine icon "Our
Lady of Vladimir". During the most important events of Russian
history, such as the Polish invasion of 1612 or the French invasion of
1812, numerous prayers for victory were offered to this and other
important images of God's Mother. Even the Russian tricolour flag,
first introduced in 1667, was modeled after the traditional colours of
her clothes.

At the beginning of the 20th centuries, strange things started to
happen with holy icons. "Our Mother of Kazan" was stolen from the
Kazan monastery and was apparently burnt by thieves to ashes; "Our
Mother of Smolensk" (or the Hodegetria) started to "cry" with resin
(the icon perished during the WWII). The Fyodorovskaya icon of God's
Mother at Kostroma's Ipatievsky Monastery was considered the holy
protectress of the Romanov family: the first Romanov tsar's mother
blessed him for the reign with this icon. This holy image (said to be
painted by Apostle Luke but dated by analysis only to the 9th century)
started to blacken from 1911 on, and by 1917 it became so black that
almost nothing could be seen on it. Other divine images were
scattered: "Our Lady of Vladimir" and the Blachernitissa (made in the
7th century from the ashes of Christian martyrs) are exhibited at the
Tretyakov Gallery, "Our Lady of Tikhvin" is now in Chicago, and only
the tragic masterpiece "Our Lady of Tolga" (1314) was yesterday
(22-Aug-2003) returned to the Tolga Convent at Yaroslavl.

Our Lady of Vladimir:
www.pbs.org/weta/faceofrussia/...e/1100/12c.html
Our Lady of Kostroma ("Fyodorovskaya", after the restoration):
www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icon...orovsk_kost.jpg
Our Lady of Blachernae:
www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icon...033_vlahern.jpg
Our Lady of Tolga:
www.aquarium.ru:8080/misc/icon.../022_tolgsk.jpg

++++++++++++

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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 11:43:17 PM »

Of course it the fault of the catholic church for promoting this satanic apparition that point's to her .....this satanic vision didn't know that the Theotokos was greatly loved and honored by the russian faithful ..the theotokos versus satan....
You shouldn't call the Our Blessed Mother Satan, even if you are not a fan of hers.


I am guessing that he is not calling the Theotokos, Satan, only the apparition appearing as her.
I know what he meant. But him spouting off things like "Our Lady of Fatima is really Satan" is not constructive in the least. It certainly doesn't convince anyone who disagrees with him over to his side.
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2009, 11:49:49 PM »

Still don't get.  Are you saying it was the Jesuits who enabled the Communists to take over Russia?

ill pm Father Ambrose he has the facts on the Jesuits how they masqueraded  as orthodox clergy out to convert the orthodox....and to tear the church apart.....vatican's thug's..they really done a job in india allso....
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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2009, 11:52:04 PM »

Still don't get.  Are you saying it was the Jesuits who enabled the Communists to take over Russia?

ill pm Father Ambrose he has the scoop on the Jesuits how they masqueraded  as orthodox clergy out to convert the orthodox....and to tear the church apart.....vatican's thug's..they really done a job in india allso....

Please do not post hearsay!  If you have documentation, then present your opinion with them.  Just posting "scoops" does not allow anyone to debate the subject with you or further discuss it, since there is nothing remotely credible and academic to start off with.
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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2009, 12:00:31 AM »

He has the facts..ill ask him i get back to you..
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2009, 12:04:20 AM »

He has the facts..ill ask him i get back to you..

Thank you.  It is just without proper citations and evidence, forums can become realms of gossip.
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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2009, 12:29:50 AM »

  Thread Split.  Conversation pertaining to "the West", can be found in the private forums.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19683.0.html

If you do not have access to the private forums, please contact Fr. Chris.

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« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2009, 01:10:02 AM »

Because I learned a long time ago that EWTN is far from reliable.  You still haven't answered why after the fall of communism that the prayers are still receited after 'low mass' or why it is part of the rosary as these Roman Catholic posters claim on the website mentioned.  Or why this apparition asked for Russia to consecrated to her when Russia had more churches dedicated to the Virgin Mary than any other country in the world.  This is why you will never convince an Orthodox Slav of the validity of this farce.  And, anyone of us who were around from the fifties on, remember very well from our  RC friends and neighbors why they were going to church to pray for the conversion of Russia.  We were told this constantly until ecumenist movement came about when things suddenly changed.  I remember Bishop Sheen saying on TV he would like to live long enough to be able to serve mass in St Basil's Cathedral on Red Square.  I heard it with my own ears.  We all know he was a bi-ritualist so how could he have served mass in an Orthodox Cathedral as a Roman Catholic bishop if the cathedral remained Orthodox?

First of all you don't mention the website you are getting your info from but I doubt the people know what they are talking about or are faithful to the Holy Father.

The Leonine Prayers are:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.  Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen. (three times)

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

P: Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.

R: That we be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

P: Let us pray. O God, our refuge and our strength, look down with favor upon Thy people who cry to Thee; and through the intercession of the glorious and immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of her spouse, blessed Joseph, of Thy holy apostles, Peter and Paul, and all the saints, mercifully and graciously hear the prayers which we pour forth to Thee for the conversion of sinners and for the liberty and exaltation of holy mother Church. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

St. Michael, the archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. We humbly beseech God to command him. And do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the divine power thrust into hell Satan and the other evil spirits who roam through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

P: Most Sacred Heart of Jesus.
R: Have mercy on us! (three times)

Prayers after Low Mass were first requested  by Blessed Pius IX for the intention of Pope regaining temporal sovreignity over the Papal States.  These were three Hail Marys and the Hail Holy Queen with Versicles and Collect.  Pope Leo XIII changed the collect slightly and added the pareyr to St. Michael.  The intention remained the same.  it is from this they acquired the name Leonine.  St. Pius X added the petitions to the Sacred Heart.  In 1929 the Lateran Treaty was signed and the Pope regained temporal sovreignity over the Vatican City State.  The original intention of the prayer being answered, Pope Pius XI in 1930 changed it stating:

"not so long ago the en­emies of God and religion throughout the afore­mentioned regions kin­dled a very fierce persecution of the Church.  Christ, the Redeemer of the human race, is there­fore to be im­plored to permit tranquillity and freedom to profess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia. And, that all may be able to make this prayer with very little trouble and difficulty, We desire that those same prayers which Our Predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, or­dered priests to recite with the people af­ter Mass, shall be said for this intention, that is, for Russia. Bishops and the clergy, both secular and religious, should be most zealous in giving no­tice of this to their people or to all who assist at Mass, and should frequently remind them of it."

In 1964 Pope Paul VI suppressed the Leonine Prayers.  There were never used in the Ordinary form of the Roman Rite Mass and those using the Extraordinary form today should not be using them.

In origin the prayers were not originally for Russia, nor were they ever for the conversion of Russia to Latin Catholicism but that Christ "permit tranquillity and freedom to profess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia."

The Fatima prayer added to the Rosary has nothing at all to with Russia but with imploring mercy for all souls.

Why did Our Lady ask for Russia to be consecrated?  Because the most powerful atheist goverment yet to exist was in control of her.  It had nothing to do with the suffering faithful but the persecuting apostates.

As for Archbishop Sheen, I believe he hoped that just as Russian Orthodox were allowed to celebrate Liturgy in the Catholic Basilica of St. Nicholas in Bari, he would be able to celebrate Liturgy in the Orthodox Cathedral of St. Basil.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2009, 01:34:05 AM »

Because I learned a long time ago that EWTN is far from reliable.  You still haven't answered why after the fall of communism that the prayers are still receited after 'low mass' or why it is part of the rosary as these Roman Catholic posters claim on the website mentioned.  Or why this apparition asked for Russia to consecrated to her when Russia had more churches dedicated to the Virgin Mary than any other country in the world.  This is why you will never convince an Orthodox Slav of the validity of this farce.  And, anyone of us who were around from the fifties on, remember very well from our  RC friends and neighbors why they were going to church to pray for the conversion of Russia.  We were told this constantly until ecumenist movement came about when things suddenly changed.  I remember Bishop Sheen saying on TV he would like to live long enough to be able to serve mass in St Basil's Cathedral on Red Square.  I heard it with my own ears.  We all know he was a bi-ritualist so how could he have served mass in an Orthodox Cathedral as a Roman Catholic bishop if the cathedral remained Orthodox?

(1) First of all you don't mention the website you are getting your info from but I doubt the people know what they are talking about or are faithful to the Holy Father. The Leonine Prayers are:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.  Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen. (three times)

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

P: Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.

R: That we be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

P: Let us pray. O God, our refuge and our strength, look down with favor upon Thy people who cry to Thee; and through the intercession of the glorious and immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of her spouse, blessed Joseph, of Thy holy apostles, Peter and Paul, and all the saints, mercifully and graciously hear the prayers which we pour forth to Thee for the conversion of sinners and for the liberty and exaltation of holy mother Church. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

St. Michael, the archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. We humbly beseech God to command him. And do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the divine power thrust into hell Satan and the other evil spirits who roam through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

P: Most Sacred Heart of Jesus.
R: Have mercy on us! (three times)

Prayers after Low Mass were first requested  by Blessed Pius IX for the intention of Pope regaining temporal sovreignity over the Papal States.  These were three Hail Marys and the Hail Holy Queen with Versicles and Collect.  Pope Leo XIII changed the collect slightly and added the pareyr to St. Michael.  The intention remained the same.  it is from this they acquired the name Leonine.  St. Pius X added the petitions to the Sacred Heart.  In 1929 the Lateran Treaty was signed and the Pope regained temporal sovreignity over the Vatican City State.  The original intention of the prayer being answered, Pope Pius XI in 1930 changed it stating:

"not so long ago the en­emies of God and religion throughout the afore­mentioned regions kin­dled a very fierce persecution of the Church.  Christ, the Redeemer of the human race, is there­fore to be im­plored to permit tranquillity and freedom to profess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia. And, that all may be able to make this prayer with very little trouble and difficulty, We desire that those same prayers which Our Predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, or­dered priests to recite with the people af­ter Mass, shall be said for this intention, that is, for Russia. Bishops and the clergy, both secular and religious, should be most zealous in giving no­tice of this to their people or to all who assist at Mass, and should frequently remind them of it."

In 1964 Pope Paul VI suppressed the Leonine Prayers.  There were never used in the Ordinary form of the Roman Rite Mass and those using the Extraordinary form today should not be using them.

(2) In origin the prayers were not originally for Russia, nor were they ever for the conversion of Russia to Latin Catholicism but that Christ "permit tranquillity and freedom to profess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia." The Fatima prayer added to the Rosary has nothing at all to with Russia but with imploring mercy for all souls.

(3)  Why did Our Lady ask for Russia to be consecrated?  Because the most powerful atheist goverment yet to exist was in control of her.  It had nothing to do with the suffering faithful but the persecuting apostates.As for Archbishop Sheen, I believe he hoped that just as Russian Orthodox were allowed to celebrate Liturgy in the Catholic Basilica of St. Nicholas in Bari, he would be able to celebrate Liturgy in the Orthodox Cathedral of St. Basil.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Fr Deacon Lance:

(1) The reason I did not give the website I read it on is because I was under the impression we are not allowed to do so on this forum.  But I am very sure you are aware of it since you access it and are part of it so why the question you already know the answer to?

(2)  Then how come so many millions of Roman Catholics were misinformed about the prayers in the 1950's.  I myself sat in a RC religious class with my high school friends where the nun said exactly that.  Perhaps some RC' or former RC's that go back that far will tell you the same thing.
Things changed in the mid 60's but up until that time the RCC had a huge propaganda campaign against the ROC and Fatima was the springboard.

(3)  I was told that Our Lady asked that Russia be converted to her so called sacred heart.  Why wouldn't she carry out one of the two tasks given to her by God the Father and point to her son instead of herself?  Especially when she was so well aware of the love the Russians and Ukranians have for her?

Orthodoc

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« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2009, 05:38:55 AM »

There are several conspiracies. One (from Chick publications) says that the Pope created communism (Karl Marx must have been a secret Jesuit or something) in order to destroy the Orthodox Church. "Seeing this didn't work" the Pope supposedly created Nazism to try and destroy the Russian Orthodox again. I thought this was just a Fundy-Baptist theory, but I guess they're not the only ones who believe it.

Another weird one is the Jews supposedly took over Russia posing as atheists to destroy the Orthodox Church.

Others have mixed it around to form their own theories, but they are all just as strange.
I wonder what Jack Chick thinks about Orthodoxy?  I've read a few of his tracts, and he is definitely not a fan of the ROMAN(extra emphasis, just to be safe; I've seen people get in trouble) Catholic Church.  I'm sure he would disagree with Orthodox doctrines, but this seems to be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

This, of course, is not to imply that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are actually enemies.
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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2009, 09:10:58 AM »

Really, I think this is an over-reaction and overkill.
The fact is that those who are saying the Leonine Prayers after Mass are actually in disobedience to their own Church. The Sacred Congregation of Rites supressed the recitation of the Leonine Prayers in the encyclical "Inter Oecumenici" (Section 48 j ).

The Leonine Prayers still exist except they are now suppressed, is this correct?

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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2009, 01:44:47 PM »

I wonder what Jack Chick thinks about Orthodoxy?  I've read a few of his tracts, and he is definitely not a fan of the ROMAN(extra emphasis, just to be safe; I've seen people get in trouble) Catholic Church.  I'm sure he would disagree with Orthodox doctrines, but this seems to be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Don't waste your time analyzing the work of someone who obviously cares nothing for intelligent, rational discourse (i.e., Jack Chick).
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« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2009, 02:16:47 PM »

Wikipedia has what appears to be a decent article on the Leonine prayers, with references (though one key ref isn't linked to, as I'll note). The reality is that the prayers were introduced in 1859, and originally hand nothing whatsoever to do with Russia. It was Pius XI who introduced that part, changing the intent (not the prayers themselves) "to permit tranquillity and freedom to pro­fess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia". Wikipedia gives a citation for this, but not a link to the text; however, I see no particular reason to doubt it. As has been said above, they were suppressed by Vatican II under Paul VI. All this stuff can be looked up.

Meanwhile, the statement that someone made about the rosary is completely bogus. Perhaps there is some crankolic group out there doing some unauthorized praying using a rosary, but the true, traditional rosay has nothing at all to do with Russia.

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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2009, 05:19:47 PM »

Fr Deacon Lance:

(1) The reason I did not give the website I read it on is because I was under the impression we are not allowed to do so on this forum.  But I am very sure you are aware of it since you access it and are part of it so why the question you already know the answer to?

(2)  Then how come so many millions of Roman Catholics were misinformed about the prayers in the 1950's.  I myself sat in a RC religious class with my high school friends where the nun said exactly that.  Perhaps some RC' or former RC's that go back that far will tell you the same thing.
Things changed in the mid 60's but up until that time the RCC had a huge propaganda campaign against the ROC and Fatima was the springboard.

(3)  I was told that Our Lady asked that Russia be converted to her so called sacred heart.  Why wouldn't she carry out one of the two tasks given to her by God the Father and point to her son instead of herself?  Especially when she was so well aware of the love the Russians and Ukranians have for her?

Orthodoc

Orthodoc,

(1) Believe it or not I don't read every subforum or thread on byzcath everyday, so no I was not aware there was current Fatima thread until I went looking for it after your post.  I notice the thread started is a new member who describes himself as a "Latin Rite Chrisitan".  In other words he belongs to the SSPX or some other unapproved or schismatic group.  Should the Orthodox Church be judged by the actions of its splinter groups?.

(2) I don't know, but you'll find that lots of Catholics are misinformed about lots of things, just as many Orthodox are.  But misinformed faithful do not a belief or policy make.  Again nothing about Fatima was aimed at the Russian Orthodox only the Communists and Apostates.

(3) Why did the Theotokos appear at Constantinople and spread her mantle over it instead of Christ?  To Christ through Mary is a saying of St. Louis de Montfort.  Every honor given to the Theotokos is ultimately an honor for her Son.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2009, 05:34:53 PM »

On another website administered by one of the sui juris churches of Roman Catholic Chuch the topic of Fatima came up once again.

Byzcath is a privately owned site whose owner and administrator is Byzantine Catholic.  It has no official sanction or connection to the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh as the site clearly states:

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright ©1996-2009. All rights reserved.
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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2009, 05:35:44 PM »

Really, I think this is an over-reaction and overkill.
The fact is that those who are saying the Leonine Prayers after Mass are actually in disobedience to their own Church. The Sacred Congregation of Rites supressed the recitation of the Leonine Prayers in the encyclical "Inter Oecumenici" (Section 48 j ).

The Leonine Prayers still exist except they are now suppressed, is this correct?

Yes, they still exist, but:

(i) It is forbidden to say them publicly after Mass as the group mentioned in the OP have

(ii) The prayers themselves don't actually mention Russia.

(iii) The prayers were offered from 1930-1965 for religious freedom in Russia (not it's conversion)

The original purpose of the Leonine Prayers when they were started in 1859 by Pius 1X was to pray against the suppression of the temporal powers of the Pope with the establishment of the Kingdom of Italy. In 1884, Pope Leo XIII ordered the prayers to be said after each "Low" Mass throughout the world and thus, they came to be called the "Leonine Prayers". In 1929, the Vatican City State was established, and thus the purpose of the prayers was attained, however the following year (1930) Pope Pius XI ordered that the prayers should continue to be offered "to permit tranquillity and freedom to pro­fess the faith to be restored to the afflicted people of Russia." In 1965, the prayers were suppressed by the Second Vatican Council, and at any rate, even if they were not, the intention of the prayers is no longer required.
Therefore, any Roman Catholics who recite the Leonine Prayers after Mass for any purpose are in disobedience to their own Church's Vatican Council.
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« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2009, 05:37:00 PM »

Fr Deacon Lance:


I thought the SSPX etc. had been reconciled back into the RC Church by the Pope, recently?  So they wouldn't be "schismatics "as you say, correct? Just wondering.
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« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2009, 05:41:08 PM »

Having been raised Roman Catholic via my Polish and Ukrainian background, by Bernardine Franciscan Sisters, these sisters were known to teach their own "nun" theology, like never chew the Host as you will hurt Jesus.  Never in the 12 years of my education did they ever say that the Prayer for the Conversion of Russia was to the Catholic Church, in fact, they made sure to tell us it was for their reconversion back to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2009, 05:43:28 PM »

Fr Deacon Lance:


I thought the SSPX etc. had been reconciled back into the RC Church by the Pope, recently?  So they wouldn't be "schismatics "as you say, correct? Just wondering.

The excommunication of the four Bishops was lifted, that is all.  The suspension a divinis and other canonical irregularities remain.
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« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2009, 06:17:34 PM »

Quote
I wonder what Jack Chick thinks about Orthodoxy?  I've read a few of his tracts, and he is definitely not a fan of the ROMAN(extra emphasis, just to be safe; I've seen people get in trouble) Catholic Church.  I'm sure he would disagree with Orthodox doctrines, but this seems to be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

This, of course, is not to imply that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are actually enemies.

Chick thinks the Orthodox Church is Satanic, but he doesn't hate it as much as the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2009, 06:47:12 PM »

Quote
I wonder what Jack Chick thinks about Orthodoxy?  I've read a few of his tracts, and he is definitely not a fan of the ROMAN(extra emphasis, just to be safe; I've seen people get in trouble) Catholic Church.  I'm sure he would disagree with Orthodox doctrines, but this seems to be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

This, of course, is not to imply that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are actually enemies.

Chick thinks the Orthodox Church is Satanic, but he doesn't hate it as much as the Roman Catholic Church.
Chick thinks anything he doesn't understand is Satanic, or as my students put it, "I don't get it. It's stupid."
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« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2009, 08:14:49 PM »

Always thought it was the conversion of communists...

Nope, it was always the conversion of the Orthodox. It was always the "Conquest of Holy Mother Russia."

Here is the Catholic hope for the conquest of Russia and bringing it under Roman obedience..

Have a look at the picture in the March, 1990
issue of the Catholic magazine 30 Days.

30 Days is one of Italy's best Catholic magazines and has a workldwide distribution in several languages.


The picture shows a horde of Catholic priests and nuns, with John Paul II leading them, marching into Russia, with Russian cupolas and churches in the background.

The caption is:

"Eastern Europe... Ready... Set....!

"The fall of the Iron Curtain has given the Church greater freedom of movement. The first to respond to the opportunity have been the religious orders. Their destination: the former Catholic nations. Their dream: to "conquer" Holy Mother Russia."


We are still seen as fodder for conversion.   Given the Roman requirement for all Christians to be in submission to the Holy Father this is quite understandable.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 08:16:21 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Jakub
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« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2009, 08:39:45 PM »

I don't hold any wild and crazy thoughts of converting any of my Orthodox brethern to the Catholic Church...

Joining the Red Sox Nation is another matter to discuss over a cold brew and brauts...
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An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
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« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2009, 09:17:17 PM »

Dear Father,

There we have it John Paul II who thought himself to be the 'Successor of Christ' leading the march.

How many pedophiles are in the line? Is not written a tree is known by it's fruit.

What they should do is simply return to the Orthodox faith, get rid of the septicemic plague of the heresies of the papacy, let the Priests get married and have children so the children can grow up as normal minded people.

I think it is abnormal and not right to follow a 'Successor of Christ' into Orthodox Russia. I also think it is abnormal to have one scandal after another in the RC place
in the name of discipline that hurts people, especially children.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 09:21:03 PM by MatthewPanchisin » Logged
Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2009, 09:40:58 PM »


Hi Matthew.  Nice to see you online again.

How many pedophiles are in the line? Is not written a tree is known by it's fruit.

Don't you think this is a little unfair?  I agree that there are problems with enforced celibacy, and pedophilia is one of them, but I think this might be sensationalized by the media.  I am not even sure if the Latin Church has more problems with pedophila than some other denominations.  Plus, this really has nothing to do with the discussion, although I would like to protect children as much as anyone else.


30 Days is one of Italy's best Catholic magazines....

Really?  I've never read it, though it looks kind of militant to me.  I wonder what some of our Catholic posters think.
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Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
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