OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 22, 2014, 10:22:18 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Battle Over Britain's Orthodox Church  (Read 25467 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #90 on: February 17, 2009, 11:30:35 AM »

Actually no. You can't be Christian and exercise the "Right of Return."
The right of return is exercised by virtue of Jewish ethnicity.  Russian Orthodox Christians do not enter a religon on the immigration aplication.

"It has been estimated that in the past twenty years about 300,000 avowed non-Jews and even practicing Christians have entered Israel from the former Soviet Union on the basis of being a grandchild of a Jew or by being married to a Jew."

Source  ::  Law of Return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

The Secretary of the Jerusalem Patriachate estimates that in the last 10 years or so around 300,000 Russian Orthodox Christians have immigrated into Israel (Typical lax Orthodox statistics!   Grin )  He points out that even if we take a lower estimate the Russian Orthodox outnumber the Arab Orthodox in Jerusalem.


Who is a Jew?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Law_of_Return


« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 11:40:14 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #91 on: February 17, 2009, 11:36:42 AM »

Momentarily cannot find the statistics from the Secretary of the Jerusalam Patriarchate for Russian Orthodox immigrants.  Will keep looking.

In the meantime there is this:


http://portal-credo.ru/site/print.php?act=news&id=33276

"Last wave of immigration sharply increased
the number of secret Orthodox Christians in Israel"


Although official statistics indicate that the number of Christians in Israel is constantly decreasing, in reality, EAI data shows that there is a large number of secret Christians among the Jews who arrived from Russia and Ukraine between 1989-1993.

Thus, the research conducted among 86,000 new immigrants in 1999 demonstrated that approximately 53% of them cannot be considered Jews in accordance with Judaic law. Available data suggest approximately 400,000 "unregistered Orthodox Christians" arrived with the last wave of immigration.
__________________________________

That's quite an old link so it may well be dead.  Please don't flog me!   Grin
Logged
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #92 on: February 17, 2009, 11:42:10 AM »

I just did a quick read of the Israel Minister of Foreign Affairs website and it seems that Father is correct. You need to be an ethnic Jew not a religious Jew. It would seem that those Jews who converted to Orthodoxy can use the "Right of Return" Law as long as they can establish they are ethnically Jewish.

I need to read more but I don't have time at work.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #93 on: February 17, 2009, 11:42:55 AM »

Found it   Smiley

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate -- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful.

This will have some impact on the future of the Patriarchate.
***

We see from these statistics that the Orthodox outnumber the 117,000 Catholics (stats of eight years ago.)
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2009, 12:01:32 PM »

To be honest after reading these post I have to wonder if the good Father would minister to a Greek person if he came to his church or if he would just send him away because he isn't the right ethnic group.

I was unofficial parish priest to the Greek congregation of Wellington in 1992 for about 6 months (maybe a bit less than 3000 members at the time, I was a Serbian priest then)) while they were experiencing an interregnum of priests.

For six months I did Liturgy for them, in Greek, also their funerals and weddings.  I was slightly exhausted and glad when a new Greek priest arrived - there is so much socialising expected of a Greek priest !!

For years afterwards people I married asked that I baptize their children and provided it was given the green light from the Greek Church authorities I was honoured to do so.

It's an awful thing to say that I would send people away from church.  I cannot imagine what sort of priests you have experienced?? !!  Even today Greeks who live in the neighbourhood of the Russian church will be seen at services.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2009, 12:29:12 PM »

Hebrew is not used as a language in the Church because Modern Hebrew is a made up language.

Fr Alexander Winogradsky Frenkel is (or was) the head of the Russian Department of the Jerusalem Patriarchate.  I was sure that he mentioned years ago that they were using both Slavonic and Hebrew in the Liturgy.

He is on Facebook if anybody would like to make contact and ask him:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1126861596
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 12:49:17 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2009, 12:45:52 PM »

Whether it is a made up language or not, it is used by people now, so I don't see the problem with it being used.  If Esperanto were spoken by people in an area as a native language and they were monolingual, we could use that too (although most Esperantoists I have met have some kind of universalist humanist pov so I doubt there are many of them that are Orthodox!)

However, the number of parishes using Hebrew must be rather small.
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2009, 12:58:42 PM »

Momentarily cannot find the statistics from the Secretary of the Jerusalam Patriarchate for Russian Orthodox immigrants.  Will keep looking.

In the meantime there is this:


http://portal-credo.ru/site/print.php?act=news&id=33276

"Last wave of immigration sharply increased
the number of secret Orthodox Christians in Israel"


Although official statistics indicate that the number of Christians in Israel is constantly decreasing, in reality, EAI data shows that there is a large number of secret Christians among the Jews who arrived from Russia and Ukraine between 1989-1993.

Thus, the research conducted among 86,000 new immigrants in 1999 demonstrated that approximately 53% of them cannot be considered Jews in accordance with Judaic law. Available data suggest approximately 400,000 "unregistered Orthodox Christians" arrived with the last wave of immigration.
__________________________________

That's quite an old link so it may well be dead.  Please don't flog me!   Grin

The problem isn't with the link it is with the timeliness of the data. You should know this by now, many of the Russians claim to be Orthodox but very few of those that fled during this time period are actually practicing Orthodox Christians. They may show up at Pascha but you don't see them until there is a death and they need a burial. Also you will find very few of them practicing their Christianity and attending church because it will make them targets amongs some of the more zealous Zionist. The Russians are able to live in the Jewish sections but they will be persecuted by the Jews, the Arabs live in the Palestinian sections are they are persecuted by the Muslims. If you are Christian and live in the Jerusalem it is not easy and many have left. Just come to America and visit the cities of Houston, Chicago and Detroit and you will meet many pious people who have fled that part of the world so that they can live like human beings.
Logged

Joseph
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2009, 12:59:48 PM »

Whether it is a made up language or not, it is used by people now, so I don't see the problem with it being used. 

Technically, it's a reconstructed language, not a "made up one", such as Tolkien's Quenya and Sindarin languages.

The more important point is that not only is Hebrew used now, but it is actively being taught to children as their first language and has been for over 100 years.  While it may be argued that it has significantly changed from Biblical Hebrew due to the influx of European syntax and vocabulary via Yiddish, and therefore a truly hybrid language, no linguist or language scholar would deny that it is a living, viable language.



Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2009, 01:01:11 PM »

The ecclesiastical problem (let us leave the political one aside) has its origin in the Georgian Church's discriminatory attitude towards minority Orthodox groups within the territory of Georgia.

Huh
What do you mean "minority Orthodox groups within the territory of Georgia"?
Georgia is an Orthodox country with it's own Patriarchate. A "minority Orthodox group" in Georgia which is not in the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Georgia is nothing short of Phyletism.

I do not understand.

Yes, there are minority Orthodox groups in Georgia.

No, none of these minority Orthodox groups are not in the Patriarchate of Georgia.

Where is the phyletism?



How can there be "minority Orthodox groups" in a country which is Orthodox? If they're Orthodox, they are in the majority.
Simple.  They are not Georgian, and therefore in the minority.  For most of us, that would at a very basic level, raise the questions of the Liturgical language (Georgian is notoriously difficult, and if you aren't Georgian...)

I second someone's motion to have a separate thread on this issue, or perhaps merge it with the thread on the Georgian's treatment of the Armenians. Roll Eyes
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #100 on: February 17, 2009, 01:07:06 PM »

If you are Christian and live in the Jerusalem it is not easy and many have left. Just come to America and visit the cities of Houston, Chicago and Detroit and you will meet many pious people who have fled that part of the world so that they can live like human beings.

I have several ex-Israelis in my parish.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #101 on: February 17, 2009, 01:14:49 PM »

Hebrew is not used as a language in the Church because Modern Hebrew is a made up language.

Friday, August 29, 2008
OCMC supports Fr. Alexander Winogradsky

http://abbaaw.blogspot.com/2008/08/ocmc-supports-fr-alexander-winogradsky.html


This article was published in Fall 2007 in the OCMC Magazine. As we come to the end of 5768, a year of shmittah\שמיטה release and rest for the earth, the 150th anniversary year of the birth of Eliezer Ben Yehudah. He revived Hebrew, a dream that came true.

The Orthodox Christian Mission Center (OCMC) recently began supporting the work of Archpriest Alexander Winogradsky in Jerusalem. Fr. Alexander leads a small community where he performs the Liturgy in Hebrew. Offering Church services in the native language of the Israeli people has allowed Fr.Alexander to build bridges and reach out to those who are seeking Christ in this ancient and Holy Land. Fr. James Bernstein of St.Paul Antiochian Orthodox Church in Brier, Washington, interviewed Fr. Alexander about his remarkable ministry.

Fr. James/ Fr. Alexander, you are authorized to serve the Divine Liturgy and other services in Hebrew in the Holy Land. Is the servicing of Orthodox
services in Hebrew a recent development?

Please click on link above for more....
Logged
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #102 on: February 17, 2009, 01:42:32 PM »

God bless Fr. Alexander and his work but one parish using Hebrew in the Patriarchate of Jerusalem is still an anomaly rather then the norm.

Also the text he is using is a more pure form of Hebrew then what is being taught in schools today.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 01:43:57 PM by arimethea » Logged

Joseph
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #103 on: February 17, 2009, 01:55:01 PM »


Also the text he is using is a more pure form of Hebrew then what is being taught in schools today.

There is no such thing as a "pure" form of a language.

Once again, any linguist will tell you that.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #104 on: February 17, 2009, 01:55:29 PM »

Is this like the Church of Greece which does not have control over a significant part of the territory of Greece?  Instead the northern part of Greece and some of its central territory is under Constantinople?
No. The "territory of Greece" is not the same as "the territory of the Church of Greece".
Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
GOD GRANT IT!
Quote
The Church's jurisdictional areas have nothing to do with national borders, which is why the Archbishopric of Ohrid is such a contentious issue between the Serbian and Macedonian Churches.

Oh?

Ecumenical Council of Nicea I
Quote
Canon IV.

It is by all means proper that a bishop should be appointed by all the bishops in the province; but should this be difficult, either on account of urgent necessity or because of distance, three at least should meet together, and the suffrages of the absent [bishops] also being given and communicated in writing, then the ordination should take place.  But in every province the ratification of what is done should be left to the Metropolitan.

Those provinces were the ones drawn by the emperors and the various client kingdoms.  The Metropolis was also decided by the secular world, Jerusalem being the sole exception.  Which is how we got:

Constantinople I
Quote
Canon III.

The Bishop of Constantinople, however, shall have the prerogative of honour after the Bishop of Rome; because Constantinople is New Rome.

And of course, who could forget (as if the EP would let us):


Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon

Quote
Canon XXVIII.

Following in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and acknowledging the canon, which has been just read, of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops beloved-of-God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome.  For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city.  And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (ἴσα πρεσβεῖα) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her; so that, in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the Dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople; every metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the bishops of his province, ordaining his own provincial bishops, as has been declared by the divine canons; but that, as has been above said, the metropolitans of the aforesaid Dioceses should be ordained by the archbishop of Constantinople, after the proper elections have been held according to custom and have been reported to him.

Quote
Canon XII.

It has come to our knowledge that certain persons, contrary to the laws of the Church, having had recourse to secular powers, have by means of imperial rescripts divided one Province into two, so that there are consequently two metropolitans in one province; therefore the holy Synod has decreed that for the future no such thing shall be at tempted by a bishop, since he who shall undertake it shall be degraded from his rank.  But the cities which have already been honoured by means of imperial letters with the name of metropolis, and the bishops in charge of them, shall take the bare title, all metropolitan rights being preserved to the true Metropolis

Quote
Canon XVII.

Outlying or rural parishes shall in every province remain subject to the bishops who now have jurisdiction over them, particularly if the bishops have peaceably and continuously governed them for the space of thirty years.  But if within thirty years there has been, or is, any dispute concerning them, it is lawful for those who hold themselves aggrieved to bring their cause before the synod of the province.  And if any one be wronged by his metropolitan, let the matter be decided by the exarch of the diocese or by the throne of Constantinople, as aforesaid.  And if any city has been, or shall hereafter be newly erected by imperial authority, let the order of the ecclesiastical parishes follow the political and municipal example.

Quintsext
Quote
Canon XXXVIII.
The canon which was made by the Fathers we also observe, which thus decreed:  If any city be renewed by imperial authority, or shall have been renewed, let the order of things ecclesiastical follow the civil and public models.

Not to say that is the way things should be. But it is how they have been.

No. The "territory of Greece" is not the same as "the territory of the Church of Greece".
.....

The Church's jurisdictional areas have nothing to do with national borders, ...

Yes, it is the same for the Church of Russia.

The Russian Orthodox Church is multi-ethnic and crosses many national borders.

Her canonical territory includes several countries - Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Azerbajian, Kazakhstan, Kirghizia, Latvia, Lithuania, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, etc.


ESTONIA
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 02:08:10 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #105 on: February 17, 2009, 02:06:34 PM »

I think that lumping all the Orthodox into one group labelled "Orthodox" is not useful.  Government statistics break us down into groups of ethnic origin and I think that the Churches are pleased to have such statistics.
Not everyone who is Greek or Russian is Orthodox so who cares how the government wants to label ethnic groups. The fact exist that if someone is Orthodox they are Orthodox, it does not matter where they are from.

The town I live in there is no "Russian" church but there have been many Russian immigrants and they are all not only ministered to but also very happy. The reason they are happy is because all the churches in town have the attitude that they are Orthodox first and the liturgy is celebrated in the local vernacular.

To be honest after reading these post I have to wonder if the good Father would minister to a Greek person if he came to his church or if he would just send him away because he isn't the right ethnic group.

You mean, they aren't Irish?

The Holy City of Jerusalem ( believe it or not!) is itself likely to see a Russian Jew on the throne of Saint James within a generation or two.  The Russian Jewish immigration (large numbers of Orthodox Christans from Russia and the Ukraine) is going to alter the whole demographic of the Orthodox presence in the Holy Land.


If they are Russian Jews then they are not Christians, they are JEWISH!!!! On top of it Russian Jews are not even ethnically Jewish or Russian.

Uh, they can, and do, convert.

Not ethnically Jewish or Russian, huh?  Then what are they?

Serrvices are conducted in both Slavonic and Hebrew

The only languages that the Patriarch of Jerusalem uses on a regular basis are Greek, Arabic and Slavonic (but only use the Slavonic is the churches that the Russian government has built). Hebrew is not used as a language in the Church because Modern Hebrew is a made up language.

About as made up as is Modern English, Modern Greek (or Koine for that matter), Classical Latin, Classical Arabic, Slavonic, etc.  Btw, the Revival of Hebrew (I guess what you mean by "made up) predates Zionism.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #106 on: February 17, 2009, 02:25:49 PM »

Quote
Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
GOD GRANT IT!

Such a thing would come from the demons, not from God. That a Bishop should usurp another Bishop's authority through violence is diabolical, infernal and a direct assault on the Orthodox Church. So I have to wonder who your god is that you address this prayer to.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 02:26:12 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #107 on: February 17, 2009, 02:43:18 PM »

I'm going to a guess that he meant God grant that Constantinople comes back under Christian hands, and not the violent takeover of the EP!

Quote
Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
GOD GRANT IT!

Such a thing would come from the demons, not from God. That a Bishop should usurp another Bishop's authority through violence is diabolical, infernal and a direct assault on the Orthodox Church. So I have to wonder who your god is that you address this prayer to.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #108 on: February 17, 2009, 02:48:42 PM »

I'm going to a guess that he meant God grant that Constantinople comes back under Christian hands, and not the violent takeover of the EP!

Quote
Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
GOD GRANT IT!

Such a thing would come from the demons, not from God. That a Bishop should usurp another Bishop's authority through violence is diabolical, infernal and a direct assault on the Orthodox Church. So I have to wonder who your god is that you address this prayer to.
The Russians so far have saved their violence for the Turks.  Btw, the last Orthodox service in Agia Sophia was a few years ago, when the Russian delegation at the funeral for the EP stopped by for a molieben I believe.  The Turks didn't dare stop them.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #109 on: February 17, 2009, 02:56:52 PM »

I just did a quick read of the Israel Minister of Foreign Affairs website and it seems that Father is correct. You need to be an ethnic Jew not a religious Jew. It would seem that those Jews who converted to Orthodoxy can use the "Right of Return" Law as long as they can establish they are ethnically Jewish.

I need to read more but I don't have time at work.

We have a couple in our parish originally from Kazakhstan.  He was Jewish and she was a Moselm.  They immigrated to Israel where they converted to Orthodoxy before coming to the U.S.  Many immigrating to Israel are not practicing Jews.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #110 on: February 17, 2009, 03:02:00 PM »

I just did a quick read of the Israel Minister of Foreign Affairs website and it seems that Father is correct. You need to be an ethnic Jew not a religious Jew. It would seem that those Jews who converted to Orthodoxy can use the "Right of Return" Law as long as they can establish they are ethnically Jewish.

I need to read more but I don't have time at work.

We have a couple in our parish originally from Kazakhstan.  He was Jewish and she was a Moselm.  They immigrated to Israel where they converted to Orthodoxy before coming to the U.S.  Many immigrating to Israel are not practicing Jews.

Orthodoc

Thats great for the Orthodox Church. The numbers of Christians in the Holy Land are down. I pray that God will bring their numbers up there and that many more Orthodox Churches are built.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #111 on: February 17, 2009, 03:06:05 PM »

I'm going to a guess that he meant God grant that Constantinople comes back under Christian hands, and not the violent takeover of the EP!

Quote
Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
GOD GRANT IT!

Such a thing would come from the demons, not from God. That a Bishop should usurp another Bishop's authority through violence is diabolical, infernal and a direct assault on the Orthodox Church. So I have to wonder who your god is that you address this prayer to.

Why would you guess that when he said "God grant it" that the Patriarchate of Constantinople should come under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
That's stretching the interpretation of what he said a bit far isn't it?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #112 on: February 17, 2009, 03:08:56 PM »

I'm going to a guess that he meant God grant that Constantinople comes back under Christian hands, and not the violent takeover of the EP!

Quote
Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
GOD GRANT IT!

Such a thing would come from the demons, not from God. That a Bishop should usurp another Bishop's authority through violence is diabolical, infernal and a direct assault on the Orthodox Church. So I have to wonder who your god is that you address this prayer to.

Why would you guess that when he said "God grant it" that the Patriarchate of Constantinople should come under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
That's stretching the interpretation of what he said a bit far isn't it?

No I don't. I just don't think he meant he wanted Russian to take over Turkey and depose the EP. I'm guessing (thinking) he wants God to grant it to Russia to liberate the EP in Constantinople. Maybe I'm wrong but thats how I see it untill he says otherwise.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #113 on: February 17, 2009, 03:12:36 PM »

I'm going to a guess that he meant God grant that Constantinople comes back under Christian hands, and not the violent takeover of the EP!

Quote
Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
GOD GRANT IT!

Such a thing would come from the demons, not from God. That a Bishop should usurp another Bishop's authority through violence is diabolical, infernal and a direct assault on the Orthodox Church. So I have to wonder who your god is that you address this prayer to.

Why would you guess that when he said "God grant it" that the Patriarchate of Constantinople should come under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
That's stretching the interpretation of what he said a bit far isn't it?

No I don't. I just don't think he meant he wanted Russian to take over Turkey and depose the EP. I'm guessing (thinking) he wants God to grant it to Russia to liberate the EP in Constantinople. Maybe I'm wrong but thats how I see it untill he says otherwise.

Lets go through this slowly.

I said:
]Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
To which ialmisry responded:
GOD GRANT IT!

I don't see any other way to interpret this.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 03:12:55 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #114 on: February 17, 2009, 03:16:48 PM »

I'm going to a guess that he meant God grant that Constantinople comes back under Christian hands, and not the violent takeover of the EP!

Quote
Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
GOD GRANT IT!

Such a thing would come from the demons, not from God. That a Bishop should usurp another Bishop's authority through violence is diabolical, infernal and a direct assault on the Orthodox Church. So I have to wonder who your god is that you address this prayer to.

Why would you guess that when he said "God grant it" that the Patriarchate of Constantinople should come under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
That's stretching the interpretation of what he said a bit far isn't it?

No I don't. I just don't think he meant he wanted Russian to take over Turkey and depose the EP. I'm guessing (thinking) he wants God to grant it to Russia to liberate the EP in Constantinople. Maybe I'm wrong but thats how I see it untill he says otherwise.

Lets go through this slowly.

I said:
]Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
To which ialmisry responded:
GOD GRANT IT!

I don't see any other way to interpret this.


I know what he said but I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt here. It would be pretty bad to advocate the violent takeover of a Patriarchal Throne.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #115 on: February 17, 2009, 03:20:36 PM »

well ialmisry is a regular poster, I am sure he will be back soon enough to clarify Wink
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,917



« Reply #116 on: February 17, 2009, 03:30:08 PM »

I'm going to guess that he hope that the Russians will wipe out the Turks, not specifically that the MP will get to take over control of Constantinople.  I that would pretty much be the end of the Orthodox Church's unity.  Forget calendar issues; something like that would never be forgotten, like the sacking of Constantinople by the crusaders.
Logged
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #117 on: February 17, 2009, 03:50:24 PM »

This is how I see it also. I think we should be praying for the liberation of Turkey (Greece), and I would bet the person praying the most for this is the EP!

I'm going to guess that he hope that the Russians will wipe out the Turks, not specifically that the MP will get to take over control of Constantinople.  I that would pretty much be the end of the Orthodox Church's unity.  Forget calendar issues; something like that would never be forgotten, like the sacking of Constantinople by the crusaders.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 03:50:55 PM by Innocent » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #118 on: February 17, 2009, 04:41:51 PM »

I'm going to a guess that he meant God grant that Constantinople comes back under Christian hands, and not the violent takeover of the EP!

Quote
Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
GOD GRANT IT!

Such a thing would come from the demons, not from God. That a Bishop should usurp another Bishop's authority through violence is diabolical, infernal and a direct assault on the Orthodox Church. So I have to wonder who your god is that you address this prayer to.

Why would you guess that when he said "God grant it" that the Patriarchate of Constantinople should come under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
That's stretching the interpretation of what he said a bit far isn't it?

No I don't. I just don't think he meant he wanted Russian to take over Turkey and depose the EP. I'm guessing (thinking) he wants God to grant it to Russia to liberate the EP in Constantinople. Maybe I'm wrong but thats how I see it untill he says otherwise.

Lets go through this slowly.

I said:
]Let's take the extreme example: if Russia invades Turkey and annexes it, does the Patriarchate of Constantinope automatically become the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow?
To which ialmisry responded:
GOD GRANT IT!

I don't see any other way to interpret this.


I'm going to guess that he hope that the Russians will wipe out the Turks,
I'd prefer convert.
Quote
not specifically that the MP will get to take over control of Constantinople. 
I'm not for the takeover of one patriarchate by another, violent or otherwise.  Well, Old Rome needs to be under someone's wing.
Quote
I that would pretty much be the end of the Orthodox Church's unity.  Forget calendar issues; something like that would never be forgotten, like the sacking of Constantinople by the crusaders.
Or the abolition of the patriarchates in Bulgaria, Serbia, etc. by the Phanar for the Ottomans?

Actually, shocking as it may seem to some, my Cross was blessed on the altar at St. George's, a/k/a the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #119 on: February 17, 2009, 06:55:06 PM »

This is how I see it also. I think we should be praying for the liberation of Turkey (Greece), and I would bet the person praying the most for this is the EP!

As I've said I believe that the Russians will eventually take control of the Ecumenical Throne simply by the strength of their numbers in Constantinople.  They are estimated to now number 5,000 which is more than the Greeks.  And they are still increasing.

I don't see what is wrong with this, especially for those people who do not perceive that there can be majority and minority ethnic groups within a Local Church and insist that all people are simply "Orthodox" within a Local Church.  All that happens is that a member of the majority Orthodox ethnic group in Constantinople (the Russians) may one day be elected Patriarch which is only fit and right.  It will be a natural outcome of the preponderance of their numbers within the Patriarchate. 

Constantinople will continue as always, but there should be one great benefit;  the Russians are in in position to actually ameliorate the Throne's position vis-a-vis the Turkish Government in a way which the Greeks have not been able.

And, when one thinks about it, is not the election of a Russian visible proof of the multi-national character of the Ecumenical Throne?
Logged
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #120 on: February 17, 2009, 06:59:18 PM »

I just can't see the turks allowing a Russian on the Throne.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #121 on: February 17, 2009, 07:01:18 PM »

Tom, I think you're right about the courts not really caring about us Orthodox, which means, really, that we don't have to worry about what they think -- much less what they who have no actual power to affect change think -- concerning the EP's role.

How sad that we've forgotten the scripture which warns against bringing your brother before a secular court...  :-";"xx

Is there any news from London concerning the case of the Exarchate of Russian Parishes (Ecumenical Patriarchate) against the Church of Russia, for ownership rights of the London cathedral of the diocese of Sourozh?

If memory serves the case is set to open this week in a London court.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #122 on: February 17, 2009, 07:06:53 PM »

This is how I see it also. I think we should be praying for the liberation of Turkey (Greece), and I would bet the person praying the most for this is the EP!

Turkey is not Greece. "Greece" is a modern invention. Before 1821, there was no nation state called "Greece". It was a collection of City States, which is why you won't find the word "Greece" in any of St. Paul's journeys there in the New Testament. St. Paul went to Corinth, Athens, Philippi, Ephesus etc. But if you asked someone who lived in what is now called Greece what their nationality was, they would have said "Romoi" (Roman). Turkey has nothing to do with the modern Nation State of Greece, and Greece has absolutely no claims over Constantinople.
Constantinople will be returned to the "Romoi", not Greece.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #123 on: February 17, 2009, 07:12:49 PM »

I just can't see the turks allowing a Russian on the Throne.
They won't.
All the prophesies of our contemporary Saints and Elders about this say that Constantinople will be taken by Russia, but they will be forced to give it to the Romoi against their will.
That's why the Romoi tend not to care about Russian boasts about their power- they are God's instument which will do our work for us.
Venerable Elder Paisios of blessed memory, my first Spiritual Father prophesied:
"We will get Constantinople back, but not us. We, because of the sorry state of the majority of our youth, are not capable to do such things. But God will arrange it so that others will capture Constantinople and give it to us, as a solution to their problem."
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #124 on: February 17, 2009, 07:14:02 PM »

This is how I see it also. I think we should be praying for the liberation of Turkey (Greece), and I would bet the person praying the most for this is the EP!

Turkey is not Greece. "Greece" is a modern invention. Before 1821, there was no nation state called "Greece". It was a collection of City States, which is why you won't find the word "Greece" in any of St. Paul's journeys there in the New Testament. St. Paul went to Corinth, Athens, Philippi, Ephesus etc. But if you asked someone who lived in what is now called Greece what their nationality was, they would have said "Romoi" (Roman). Turkey has nothing to do with the modern Nation State of Greece, and Greece has absolutely no claims over Constantinople.
Constantinople will be returned to the "Romoi", not Greece.

And who are the decedents of the Romoi? Modern Greeks?
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #125 on: February 17, 2009, 07:15:36 PM »

I just can't see the turks allowing a Russian on the Throne.

If he is a Turkish national, why not?  It would be legal.

As you see from the Russians actually daring to pray in Agia Sofia, the Turks have to show a bit of respect for the Russians.  The exigency of realpolitik.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #126 on: February 17, 2009, 07:22:48 PM »

And who are the decedents of the Romoi? Modern Greeks?
Not only modern Greeks, but anyone who was a Christian subject of New Rome (Constantinple) is a "Romois". For example, the Christians in the Middle East who were subjects of the Roman Empire called themselves "Rum" which is the arabic word for "Roman". This is why the Patriarchate of Antioch to this day calls itself the "Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and all the East", by "Greek", they actually mean "Roman".
Even the Turks call us Romans, because that is who they conquered. The Patriarchate of Constantinople is called in Turkish: "Rum Ortodoks Patriği" ("The Roman Orthodox Patriarchate").
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #127 on: February 17, 2009, 07:25:56 PM »

All the prophesies of our contemporary Saints and Elders about this say that Constantinople will be taken by Russia, but they will be forced to give it to the Romoi against their will.

References please for the prophecies that

1. Constantinople will be taken by Russia

2. Russia will be forced againts its will to give it to the Greeks.
Logged
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #128 on: February 17, 2009, 07:28:02 PM »

And who are the decedents of the Romoi? Modern Greeks?
Not only modern Greeks, but anyone who was a Christian subject of New Rome (Constantinple) is a "Romois". For example, the Christians in the Middle East who were subjects of the Roman Empire called themselves "Rum" which is the arabic word for "Roman". This is why the Patriarchate of Antioch to this day calls itself the "Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and all the East", by "Greek", they actually mean "Roman".
Even the Turks call us Romans, because that is who they conquered. The Patriarchate of Constantinople is called in Turkish: "Rum Ortodoks Patriği" ("The Roman Orthodox Patriarchate").

Interesting!
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #129 on: February 17, 2009, 07:38:42 PM »

I just can't see the turks allowing a Russian on the Throne.
They won't be given the choice.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #130 on: February 17, 2009, 07:42:06 PM »

And who are the decedents of the Romoi? Modern Greeks?
Not only modern Greeks, but anyone who was a Christian subject of New Rome (Constantinple) is a "Romois".

Ah, the Millet-i Rum.  Orthodox Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, Vlachs, Romanians and Serbs were all considered part of the same millet and were Romans to the Turks.
Logged
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #131 on: February 17, 2009, 07:44:37 PM »

I just can't see the turks allowing a Russian on the Throne.
They won't be given the choice.

That would be wonderful. I would love to see the day when the turks are removed from Orthodox lands!
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #132 on: February 17, 2009, 07:56:10 PM »

References please for the prophecies that

1. Constantinople will be taken by Russia

2. Russia will be forced againts its will to give it to the Greeks.

Well, he's formerly of ROCOR, but Vladimir Moss may be familiar to you. In his work "The Book of the End" he references many of our Saint's prophecies about this:
Quote
"Several of the Greek prophets speak of the conquest of Constantinople by a blonde race beginning with the letter "R". This occupation will last "until the fifth hour" (St. Constantine's tomb) or "for six and five" (St. Methodius of Patara). We suppose that this means: “between five and six months”, for the climax of the prophecy of Hieromartyr Constantius the Russian of Constantinople covers a period of little over five months: "On July 8th two unheard-of wars will coincide. On August 12th there will be an unbearable heatwave. On December 18th half mankind will perish."[173] This is more or less consistent with the Apocalypse's five months."
and in the footnotes to this paragraph (footnote 171), he lists the Saints as:
Quote
"Hieromartyr Methodius of Patara, St. Andrew the Fool-for-Christ of Constantinople, St. Tarasius of Constantinople, Emperor Leo the Wise, Hieromartyr Cosmas of Aitolia and on the tomb and column of St. Constantine the Great, translated in Sotiropoulos, op. cit."

Then, add to this the prophecy of the venerable Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain from the book "Ο ΓΕΡΩΝ ΠΑΪΣΙΟΣ" ("THE ELDER PAISIOS") by Heiromonk Christodoulos Angellou (pg 183):
Quote
Στην Λιτανεία της Φοβεράς Προστασίας το 1992, την ομπρέλλα της Παναγίας την κρατουσσε ο ανθυπασπιστής της Μοίρας Καταδρομων, Β.Τ., από τα Ιωάννινα. Όπως προχωρούσαμε, δεξιά του ήμουν εγώ και αριστερά του ο Γέροντας, ο οποιος κάποια στιγμή είπε στον αξιωματικό:

-Άντε, εύχομαι με το καλό να είσαι σημαιοφόρος και στην Πόλη (Κων/πολη), που θα μπουμε:

Και γυρνώντας προς εμένα μου είπε:

-Άκουσες τι είπα;

-Ναι, Γέροντα το άκουσα. Αμήν, του απάντησα.

Τοτε γέλασε εκεινος και πρόφερε το χαρακτηριστικό του επιφώνημα.

-Ά! (εντάξει, δηλαδή).

Μιά μέρα αργότερα κατέβηκα στο κελί του και τον ρώτησα σχετικά με την Πόλη και μου είπε:

-Την Κωνσταντινούπολη θα την πάρουμε πίσω, αλλά όχι εμείς. Εμείς, έτσι όπως κατάντησε η πλειονότητα της νεολαίας μας, δεν είμαστε ικανοί για τέτοια. Όμως ο Θεός θα οικονομήσει να πάρουν άλλοι την Πόλη και να την δώσουν σ’ εμας, σαν λύση στο πρόβλημά τους.

 

Rough English translation:

During the Procession of the Awesome Protection of 1992, the umbrella of the Panagia was being held by the sergeant-major of the Army Squadron, B.T., from Ioannina. As we proceeded, I was on his right, and the Elder, who was on his left, at some point said to the officer:

-"Come on, I hope you are the standard-bearer even in Constantinople, in which we shall enter."

And turning to me he said:

-"Did you hear what I said?"

-"Yes, Elder, I heard it. Amen," I answered him.

Then he laughed and uttered his characteristic exclamation.

-"Ah!" (ok, in other words)

One day later I went to his cell and I asked him about Constantinople and he told me:

-"We will get Constantinople back, but not us. We, because of the sorry state of the majority of our youth, are not capable to do such things. But God will arrange it so that others will capture Constantinople and give it to us, as a solution to their problem."

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #133 on: February 17, 2009, 07:57:36 PM »

That would be wonderful. I would love to see the day when the turks are removed from Orthodox lands!

Yikes, could we not learn to live side by side.  If the Turks are expelled from Turkey, we will create a political problem which will make the Palestinian one seem like a mild toothache.   Sad
Logged
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #134 on: February 17, 2009, 08:19:35 PM »

That would be wonderful. I would love to see the day when the turks are removed from Orthodox lands!

Yikes, could we not learn to live side by side.  If the Turks are expelled from Turkey, we will create a political problem which will make the Palestinian one seem like a mild toothache.   Sad

Yeah if they convert to Orthodox. As muslims these people have committed genocide on a scale that is really hard to comprehend. I'm not saying execute them but what are the Orthodox going to do. Maybe split the country I'm not sure and its not up to me. I don't think there has ever been a country in the history of islam that has had a sizable muslim population and no strife?  If I'm wrong ok, but living side by side with muslims usually means continual strife.
Logged
Tags: British Orthodox Church schism Patriarch Ilya Godwin's Law EP Bashing 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.179 seconds with 71 queries.