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Author Topic: Do We Need to Confess Even Petty Little Sins?  (Read 6587 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tzimis
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« on: February 09, 2009, 04:14:20 PM »

Thread started here:  Is It Necessary to Abstain from Meat for One Week Before Communion?   -PtA


I'm going to agree with Fr. Anastasios on this because the sacrament of confession is a separate sacrament in my church. It could also relate to the way Greeks differ slightly to the practices of the Slavic traditions. Our church often uses the our father prayer before receiving communion. We pray this as a community. Now if there are specific sins one my have that will affect there communion with the church then one should non approach the Eucharist in a sinful state.
Please understand that I am not trying to start an arguement but just trying to pin down what the Orthodox understanding of this is. I was under the impression that there was no difference in sins (venial vs. mortal) in the Eastern Orthodox Church yet here you seem to be suggesting that there are a difference in sins: those that don't affect one's communion with the church (venial) and those that do (mortal). What is the Eastern Orthodox position on this matter. If the moderators feel that this question needs to be moved to another subforum, I totally understand. I just didn't want to forget to ask this question after seeing this post.
There is no reason for a list. Your own heart will convict you. I think it a waste of the churches time when one goes to confession for petty sins. I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me.  laugh
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2009, 04:16:46 PM »

I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me. 
If it was intentional, would it not be an act of dishonesty? Should you not confess this?

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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 04:19:22 PM »

I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me. 
If it was intentional, would it not be an act of dishonesty? Should you not confess this?



No question about it. But to whom an I confessing?
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 04:21:13 PM »

No question about it. But to whom am I confessing?
God--with the priest as a witness. Your point?
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2009, 04:29:51 PM »

No question about it. But to whom am I confessing?
God--with the priest as a witness. Your point?

If it becomes a habitual sin or if indeed one can't stop. than I would confess it to my priest. But the liturgy, specifically the lords prayer is the same confession. Lords prayer covers my confession.
 in Greek

Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·
ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·
ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·
γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου, ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς·
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.
[Ὅτι σοῦ ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας. ἀμήν.]

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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2009, 04:33:45 PM »

But the liturgy, specifically the lords prayer is the same confession. Lords prayer covers my confession.

I have never heard of such a thing as the Lord's Prayer substituting for Confession. Is this like some sort of "general confession"?
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2009, 04:34:50 PM »

God--with the priest as a witness. Your point?

If it becomes a habitual sin or if indeed one can't stop. than I would confess it to my priest. But the liturgy, specifically the lords prayer is the same confession. Lords prayer covers my confession.
 in Greek

Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·
ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·
ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·
γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου, ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς·
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.
[Ὅτι σοῦ ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας. ἀμήν.]

Don't bold the one part while forgetting the subordinate clause:

καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·


"and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us"

And you should read more about what the Church has to teach about confession - for "the Lord's prayer covers my confession" isn't part of it.
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2009, 04:44:08 PM »

But the liturgy, specifically the lords prayer is the same confession. Lords prayer covers my confession.

I have never heard of such a thing as the Lord's Prayer substituting for Confession. Is this like some sort of "general confession"?
1.  In both the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil, the "Our Father" is recited after the Gifts have been consecrated during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

2.  We also have prayers of general confession immediately before the Holy Gifts are offered to the faithful.  ("I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first...")


That said, however, neither is to be seen as a substitute for specific personal confession as needed.
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 04:47:58 PM »

I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me. 
If it was intentional, would it not be an act of dishonesty? Should you not confess this?


Additionally, the concealment of known sins is itself a sin that needs to be confessed, regardless of how small the sins you conceal are.
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 04:49:52 PM »

1.  In both the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil, the "Our Father" is recited after the Gifts have been consecrated during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Yes.

2.  We also have prayers of general confession immediately before the Holy Gifts are offered to the faithful.  ("I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first...")

Yes.


That said, however, neither is to be seen as a substitute for specific personal confession as needed.
That's what I was taught.
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 04:50:58 PM »

Additionally, the concealment of known sins is itself a sin that needs to be confessed, regardless of how small the sins you conceal are.
Good point.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 04:52:46 PM »

I think it a waste of the churches time when one goes to confession for petty sins. I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me.  laugh
I wouldn't be so flippant about Confession, Demetrios.  Petty sins are still sins and should be confessed.
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 05:02:33 PM »

I think it a waste of the churches time when one goes to confession for petty sins. I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me.  laugh
I wouldn't be so flippant about Confession, Demetrios.  Petty sins are still sins and should be confessed.

Are you suggesting the divine liturgy is a waste of time and the prayers to our lord are meaningless? Is my priest the one that forgives my sins? I wasn't aware of that. BTW The above $1.50 was an example. You pinned it to me like a tail on a donkey.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 05:05:38 PM »

I think it a waste of the churches time when one goes to confession for petty sins. I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me.  laugh
I wouldn't be so flippant about Confession, Demetrios.  Petty sins are still sins and should be confessed.

Are you suggesting the divine liturgy is a waste of time and the prayers to our lord are meaningless? Is my priest the one that forgives my sins? I wasn't aware of that. BTW The above $1.50 was an example. You pinned it to me like a tail on a donkey.
Would you care to tell me how you got such specific ideas from my statement of nothing more than general wisdom?
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 05:16:19 PM »

I think it a waste of the churches time when one goes to confession for petty sins. I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me.  laugh
I wouldn't be so flippant about Confession, Demetrios.  Petty sins are still sins and should be confessed.

Are you suggesting the divine liturgy is a waste of time and the prayers to our lord are meaningless? Is my priest the one that forgives my sins? I wasn't aware of that. BTW The above $1.50 was an example. You pinned it to me like a tail on a donkey.
Would you care to tell me how you got such specific ideas from my statement of nothing more than general wisdom?
You don't even know me. What makes you feel like I need your wisdom?
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 06:28:33 PM »

I think it a waste of the churches time when one goes to confession for petty sins. I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me.  laugh
I wouldn't be so flippant about Confession, Demetrios.  Petty sins are still sins and should be confessed.

Are you suggesting the divine liturgy is a waste of time and the prayers to our lord are meaningless? Is my priest the one that forgives my sins? I wasn't aware of that. BTW The above $1.50 was an example. You pinned it to me like a tail on a donkey.
Would you care to tell me how you got such specific ideas from my statement of nothing more than general wisdom?
You don't even know me. What makes you feel like I need your wisdom?
No need to get personal.  Let's just stick to an examination of the topic of this thread (i.e., how one is to prepare for Communion) and not derail it with petty squabbles.

As to your specific concern, I did nothing but address the logic of your statement that one shouldn't waste the Church's time by confessing petty little sins that are already covered by the prayers of general confession before Communion.  I'm saying that Confession is the normative means of receiving forgiveness of sins, a rite separate from the usual means of preparation for Communion.  Regardless of whether you intend to receive Communion or not, you should confess even the petty sins of which you are conscious, such as the $1.50 tax cheat example you provided.
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2009, 10:19:05 PM »

I think it a waste of the churches time when one goes to confession for petty sins. I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me.  laugh
I wouldn't be so flippant about Confession, Demetrios.  Petty sins are still sins and should be confessed.

Are you suggesting the divine liturgy is a waste of time and the prayers to our lord are meaningless? Is my priest the one that forgives my sins? I wasn't aware of that. BTW The above $1.50 was an example. You pinned it to me like a tail on a donkey.
Would you care to tell me how you got such specific ideas from my statement of nothing more than general wisdom?
You don't even know me. What makes you feel like I need your wisdom?
No need to get personal.  Let's just stick to an examination of the topic of this thread (i.e., how one is to prepare for Communion) and not derail it with petty squabbles.

As to your specific concern, I did nothing but address the logic of your statement that one shouldn't waste the Church's time by confessing petty little sins that are already covered by the prayers of general confession before Communion.  I'm saying that Confession is the normative means of receiving forgiveness of sins, a rite separate from the usual means of preparation for Communion.  Regardless of whether you intend to receive Communion or not, you should confess even the petty sins of which you are conscious, such as the $1.50 tax cheat example you provided.

I think that many here are putting a very western interpetation on the sacrament of repentance. I'm going to post a paragraph of an article found on the Goarch website. The whole can be read here   http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8493

Quote
Unfortunately confession at times undermines and even replaces the genuine inner repentance of a Christian: peo­ple feel "entitled" to communion after confession. This con­tradicts the true nature of repentance. It is a result of the sacrament being narrowly and juridically reduced to "abso­lution." Scholarly theology tended to transpose the concept of sin, repentance and forgiveness into a forensic idiom, and placed the emphasis on the power of the priest to absolve. In the Orthodox Church, the priest is seen as a witness of repentance, not a recipient of secrets, a detective of speci­fic misdeeds. The "eye," the "ear" of the priest is dissolved in the sacramental mystery. He is not a dispenser, a power­wielding, vindicating agent, an "authority." Such a concep­tion exteriorizes the function of the confessor and of con­fession which is an act of re-integration of the penitent and priest alike into the Body of Christ. The declaration "I, an unworthy priest, by the power given unto me, absolve you" is unknown in the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is of later Latin origin and was adopted in some Russian liturgical books at the time of the domination of Russian Orthodox theology by Latin thought and practice .[29] The idea served to bring confession into disrepute, turning it into a procedure of justification and exculpation in respect of particular pun­ishable offenses. Forgiveness, absolution is the culmination of repentance, in response to sincerely felt compunction. It is not "administered" by the priest, or anybody else. It is a freely given grace of Christ and the Holy Spirit within the Church as the Body of Christ.

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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2009, 04:33:49 AM »

I think it a waste of the churches time when one goes to confession for petty sins. I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me.  laugh
I wouldn't be so flippant about Confession, Demetrios.  Petty sins are still sins and should be confessed.

Are you suggesting the divine liturgy is a waste of time and the prayers to our lord are meaningless? Is my priest the one that forgives my sins? I wasn't aware of that. BTW The above $1.50 was an example. You pinned it to me like a tail on a donkey.
Would you care to tell me how you got such specific ideas from my statement of nothing more than general wisdom?
You don't even know me. What makes you feel like I need your wisdom?
No need to get personal.  Let's just stick to an examination of the topic of this thread (i.e., how one is to prepare for Communion) and not derail it with petty squabbles.

As to your specific concern, I did nothing but address the logic of your statement that one shouldn't waste the Church's time by confessing petty little sins that are already covered by the prayers of general confession before Communion.  I'm saying that Confession is the normative means of receiving forgiveness of sins, a rite separate from the usual means of preparation for Communion.  Regardless of whether you intend to receive Communion or not, you should confess even the petty sins of which you are conscious, such as the $1.50 tax cheat example you provided.

I think that many here are putting a very western interpetation on the sacrament of repentance.
Again, you only defeat your logic by labeling any theology with which you don't agree "Western" or "Roman Catholic" or "Protestant" without ever defining what exactly you mean by the terms "Western", "Roman Catholic", and "Protestant".  Exactly how are so many people here putting a Western interpretation on the sacrament of repentance?  Please explain to us in detail what this Western spin is.

I'm going to post a paragraph of an article found on the Goarch website. The whole can be read here   http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8493

Quote
Unfortunately confession at times undermines and even replaces the genuine inner repentance of a Christian: peo­ple feel "entitled" to communion after confession. This con­tradicts the true nature of repentance. It is a result of the sacrament being narrowly and juridically reduced to "abso­lution." Scholarly theology tended to transpose the concept of sin, repentance and forgiveness into a forensic idiom, and placed the emphasis on the power of the priest to absolve. In the Orthodox Church, the priest is seen as a witness of repentance, not a recipient of secrets, a detective of speci­fic misdeeds. The "eye," the "ear" of the priest is dissolved in the sacramental mystery. He is not a dispenser, a power­wielding, vindicating agent, an "authority." Such a concep­tion exteriorizes the function of the confessor and of con­fession which is an act of re-integration of the penitent and priest alike into the Body of Christ. The declaration "I, an unworthy priest, by the power given unto me, absolve you" is unknown in the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is of later Latin origin and was adopted in some Russian liturgical books at the time of the domination of Russian Orthodox theology by Latin thought and practice .[29] The idea served to bring confession into disrepute, turning it into a procedure of justification and exculpation in respect of particular pun­ishable offenses. Forgiveness, absolution is the culmination of repentance, in response to sincerely felt compunction. It is not "administered" by the priest, or anybody else. It is a freely given grace of Christ and the Holy Spirit within the Church as the Body of Christ.


And how exactly does this article apply to the reasoning I've employed in discussing this subject with you?
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 10:37:19 AM »

I think it a waste of the churches time when one goes to confession for petty sins. I cheated on my last years tax return by $1.50 father. Can you please read the prayer of obsolesce over me.  laugh
I wouldn't be so flippant about Confession, Demetrios.  Petty sins are still sins and should be confessed.

Are you suggesting the divine liturgy is a waste of time and the prayers to our lord are meaningless? Is my priest the one that forgives my sins? I wasn't aware of that. BTW The above $1.50 was an example. You pinned it to me like a tail on a donkey.
Would you care to tell me how you got such specific ideas from my statement of nothing more than general wisdom?
You don't even know me. What makes you feel like I need your wisdom?
No need to get personal.  Let's just stick to an examination of the topic of this thread (i.e., how one is to prepare for Communion) and not derail it with petty squabbles.

As to your specific concern, I did nothing but address the logic of your statement that one shouldn't waste the Church's time by confessing petty little sins that are already covered by the prayers of general confession before Communion.  I'm saying that Confession is the normative means of receiving forgiveness of sins, a rite separate from the usual means of preparation for Communion.  Regardless of whether you intend to receive Communion or not, you should confess even the petty sins of which you are conscious, such as the $1.50 tax cheat example you provided.

I think that many here are putting a very western interpetation on the sacrament of repentance.
Again, you only defeat your logic by labeling any theology with which you don't agree "Western" or "Roman Catholic" or "Protestant" without ever defining what exactly you mean by the terms "Western", "Roman Catholic", and "Protestant".  Exactly how are so many people here putting a Western interpretation on the sacrament of repentance?  Please explain to us in detail what this Western spin is.

Orthodoxy is about building a personality somewhat equal in stature to Christ. Theosis.  Repenting of sins is a means and not a finality of theosis. One isn't free from sins and justified the moment they are obsolved unless their moving from there sinful state towards a different personhood. The sacrament isn't a revolving door because every week you will return with the intent to be purified again. The sacrament is used as a means to better your stance towards the annihilation of sin all together.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2009, 10:49:58 AM »

The sacrament is used as a means to better your stance towards the annihilation of sin all together.
And this includes "petty" sins.
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2009, 11:34:44 AM »

The sacrament is used as a means to better your stance towards the annihilation of sin all together.
And this includes "petty" sins.

Yah I just don't get how we can put any sin as "petty".  A step away from god (amartia) is exactly that...a step away from God.  Call it a side step, a half step, whatever step you want, it's still a step.  As soon as you start rationalizing, then you bring yourself into even greater sin. 

Now, if your spiritual father thinks that you should be worried pre-eminently about your "major" sins or etc. that's up to him.  But in regards to a general conversation...sin is sin, no matter which way you slice it. 
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2009, 11:42:06 AM »


When we go to Holy Confession, the priest reads a prayer before he begins listening to our confessions.  In this prayer he states that we should not be ashamed before him to admit our wrongs, because he is only present as a witness, and in fact you are confessing to Christ Himself.  He also says that knowing a sin and not confessing it compounds that sin...and he warns us that having come to the "doctor" we be weary that we get healed and not make ourselves even "sicker".  Of course I paraphrased, as I don't know the exact words...but, this was the meaning.

I have always understood that the priest is present not to forgive.  He doesn't have that right or capacity.  Who forgives is God, alone.  The priest is there as your shepherd.  He is there to listen and when he realizes that one of his flock is having issues, he is there to offer advice, in order to assist them in their healing.  He is there to hear our sins...and to pray for us.  He is there to help us, not to forgive us.

When we complete our Confession, the priest does not tell you "you are forgiven", or your sins are "erased".  He prays that God should forgive us our trespasses.  He prays for our healing. 

If we go away with a warped sense of being "cleansed" with the notion of repeating it again this week, because I can go get "cleansed" again next Sunday...we are sadly mistaken.  Christ said "go and sin no more."  ...and while we are not perfect....and we WILL sin again....we need to leave with the wholehearted intent of NOT sinning again.  We need to fight against sin.  We need to make a decent effort!

As for petty sins.  First, there is no petty sin.  If we don't recognize even our smallest sins...we stand the chance of not seeing our bigger sins.  The more you "allow" yourself....the easier it will be to "allow" even greater sins.  We need to make a conscious effort against all manner of sin.

However, as to confessing each and every thing....I believe the priest may frown upon that...as almost being self righteous, in a sense.  If you've cursed out your coworker...and later you yelled at the bank teller for being slow....and then you got upset at your neighbor for something...and at your kids for disturbing you ...you don't need to tell the priest all the details, just say that you lost your patience and said unnecessary things.  With the one statement you have mentioned them all.  However, in YOUR heart....you need to remember ALL of them....and be remorseful....and try not to lose your temper again. 

Just my opinion.



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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2009, 01:34:40 PM »

The sacrament is used as a means to better your stance towards the annihilation of sin all together.
And this includes "petty" sins.

Are you saying holy scripture is wrong?

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2009, 01:38:28 PM »

Are you saying holy scripture is wrong?
No. Why would you say this?

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

This refers to the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2009, 01:44:17 PM »

Are you saying holy scripture is wrong?
No. Why would you say this?

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

This refers to the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

If it's unforgivable than why doesn't it lead to death?
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2009, 01:45:46 PM »

Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

He didn't say impossible. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2009, 01:56:07 PM »

If it's unforgivable than why doesn't it lead to death?
Wha?
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2009, 01:56:38 PM »

Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

He didn't say impossible.
Huh?
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2009, 02:38:06 PM »

Quote
This refers to the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

How do you know these verses are what you describe above?
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2009, 03:04:48 PM »

How do you know these verses are what you describe above?
Do a bit of studying and ask your spiritual father.

Mark 3:28-29
Amen I say to you, that all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and the blasphemies wherewith they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.


Matthew 12:31-32
Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

1 John 5:16
He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.
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« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2009, 03:09:25 PM »

First of all, to get to the heart of this we must ask "What is sin?"

Sin is missing the mark. It doesn't matter by how much you missed the mark. You missed, therefore you sinned.

So it doesn't matter if a person cheated $1.50 off of their taxes or $1500.00 off of their taxes, they cheated.

To qualify sins as "petty" or "non-petty" is similar to the Roman Catholic method of qualifying them as "venial," "mortal," and "cardinal."

This is foreign to Orthodoxy. Sin is sin. We go to confession to confess our sins. All of them, regardless of size.
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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2009, 03:15:17 PM »

First of all, to get to the heart of this we must ask "What is sin?"

Sin is missing the mark. It doesn't matter by how much you missed the mark. You missed, therefore you sinned.

So it doesn't matter if a person cheated $1.50 off of their taxes or $1500.00 off of their taxes, they cheated.
Amen.
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« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2009, 03:37:04 PM »

Some of this has to do with how often your Priest expects you to come to confession.

When I was in an OCA Parish I went before each major feast along with a few other times as was needed. I tended to stick to the bigger issues

Now that I am in a Rocor Parish I am expected to come to confession before receiving communion ( unless there is more than one Liturgy within a couple of days of each other). So now I can recall the smaller issues as well such as flash of anger or some gossip I engaged in or such the like. I feel this is better as I can now clean up every dusty corner. Your milage may vary.
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« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2009, 04:22:21 PM »

I think that many here are putting a very western interpetation on the sacrament of repentance.
Again, you only defeat your logic by labeling any theology with which you don't agree "Western" or "Roman Catholic" or "Protestant" without ever defining what exactly you mean by the terms "Western", "Roman Catholic", and "Protestant".  Exactly how are so many people here putting a Western interpretation on the sacrament of repentance?  Please explain to us in detail what this Western spin is.

Orthodoxy is about building a personality somewhat equal in stature to Christ. Theosis.  Repenting of sins is a means and not a finality of theosis. One isn't free from sins and justified the moment they are obsolved unless their moving from there sinful state towards a different personhood. The sacrament isn't a revolving door because every week you will return with the intent to be purified again. The sacrament is used as a means to better your stance towards the annihilation of sin all together.

But how does this answer my question?  Your attempt at an answer has done nothing but explain the Orthodox understanding of Confession.  I asked you to explain the Western understanding of Confession and to point out how so many of us have adopted this interpretation.
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« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2009, 05:09:44 PM »

How do you know these verses are what you describe above?
Do a bit of studying and ask your spiritual father.


I suggest you do the same. because your wrong.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2009, 05:11:48 PM »

I think that many here are putting a very western interpetation on the sacrament of repentance.
Again, you only defeat your logic by labeling any theology with which you don't agree "Western" or "Roman Catholic" or "Protestant" without ever defining what exactly you mean by the terms "Western", "Roman Catholic", and "Protestant".  Exactly how are so many people here putting a Western interpretation on the sacrament of repentance?  Please explain to us in detail what this Western spin is.

Orthodoxy is about building a personality somewhat equal in stature to Christ. Theosis.  Repenting of sins is a means and not a finality of theosis. One isn't free from sins and justified the moment they are obsolved unless their moving from there sinful state towards a different personhood. The sacrament isn't a revolving door because every week you will return with the intent to be purified again. The sacrament is used as a means to better your stance towards the annihilation of sin all together.

But how does this answer my question?  Your attempt at an answer has done nothing but explain the Orthodox understanding of Confession.  I asked you to explain the Western understanding of Confession and to point out how so many of us have adopted this interpretation.
I explained both in my response to you. It's not my problem if you missed it.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2009, 05:36:59 PM »

I think that many here are putting a very western interpetation on the sacrament of repentance.
Again, you only defeat your logic by labeling any theology with which you don't agree "Western" or "Roman Catholic" or "Protestant" without ever defining what exactly you mean by the terms "Western", "Roman Catholic", and "Protestant".  Exactly how are so many people here putting a Western interpretation on the sacrament of repentance?  Please explain to us in detail what this Western spin is.

Orthodoxy is about building a personality somewhat equal in stature to Christ. Theosis.  Repenting of sins is a means and not a finality of theosis. One isn't free from sins and justified the moment they are obsolved unless their moving from there sinful state towards a different personhood. The sacrament isn't a revolving door because every week you will return with the intent to be purified again. The sacrament is used as a means to better your stance towards the annihilation of sin all together.

But how does this answer my question?  Your attempt at an answer has done nothing but explain the Orthodox understanding of Confession.  I asked you to explain the Western understanding of Confession and to point out how so many of us have adopted this interpretation.
I explained both in my response to you. It's not my problem if you missed it.

Let's look at your response again.

Orthodoxy is about building a personality somewhat equal in stature to Christ. Theosis.  Repenting of sins is a means and not a finality of theosis. One isn't free from sins and justified the moment they are obsolved unless their moving from there sinful state towards a different personhood. The sacrament isn't a revolving door because every week you will return with the intent to be purified again. The sacrament is used as a means to better your stance towards the annihilation of sin all together.
You offered a statement or two regarding how we Orthodox view Confession, and you offered a more detailed description of what Confession is not, but nowhere in your explanation did you attach the term "Western" to any part of either definition.  In fact, you don't use the term "Western" AT ALL, not even once.  If you want to tell me exactly what the Western spin on Confession is and show how so many of us have adopted this, you need to state explicitly something like this: "This is the Western understanding of Confession."  Insofar as you have not done this yet, the fact that I missed it IS your problem. Wink
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« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2009, 06:34:35 PM »

I'll give you a prime example of what I'm illuminating PTA. A person who has a sinful heart will see sin in everything around him. When he looks at a woman he has lust in his eyes. When a regular person sees a woman he will admire her in a respectable way acknowledging her beauty but not in a lustful way. Both men are doing the same thing, yet one is a sinner and the other justified. Are both these punishable sins. No way. Elder Paisios told us this in simple words. A fly will find filth and a bee will find flowers in the exact same place. Wink
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« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2009, 06:45:38 PM »

I'll give you a prime example of what I'm illuminating PTA. A person who has a sinful heart will see sin in everything around him. When he looks at a woman he has lust in his eyes. When a regular person sees a woman he will admire her in a respectable way acknowledging her beauty but not in a lustful way. Both men are doing the same thing, yet one is a sinner and the other justified. Are both these punishable sins. No way. Elder Paisios told us this in simple words. A fly will find filth and a bee will find flowers in the exact same place. Wink
But that has absolutely nothing to do with either my specific inquiry into what you understand to be the Western view of Confession or with the tax cheat example you brought up in the OP.  Can you show me how the line of reasoning quoted above applies to ANYTHING we've talked about in this thread?
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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2009, 08:49:31 PM »

I'll give you a prime example of what I'm illuminating PTA. A person who has a sinful heart will see sin in everything around him. When he looks at a woman he has lust in his eyes. When a regular person sees a woman he will admire her in a respectable way acknowledging her beauty but not in a lustful way. Both men are doing the same thing, yet one is a sinner and the other justified. Are both these punishable sins. No way. Elder Paisios told us this in simple words. A fly will find filth and a bee will find flowers in the exact same place. Wink
But that has absolutely nothing to do with either my specific inquiry into what you understand to be the Western view of Confession or with the tax cheat example you brought up in the OP.  Can you show me how the line of reasoning quoted above applies to ANYTHING we've talked about in this thread?
Why yes it does. What if I overpaid the year prier to that by twenty dollars. Am I not entitled to my money back? If I am than it's not a sin is it? You call me a sinner. Who's the real sinner now?
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2009, 09:15:21 PM »

I'll give you a prime example of what I'm illuminating PTA. A person who has a sinful heart will see sin in everything around him. When he looks at a woman he has lust in his eyes. When a regular person sees a woman he will admire her in a respectable way acknowledging her beauty but not in a lustful way. Both men are doing the same thing, yet one is a sinner and the other justified. Are both these punishable sins. No way. Elder Paisios told us this in simple words. A fly will find filth and a bee will find flowers in the exact same place. Wink
But that has absolutely nothing to do with either my specific inquiry into what you understand to be the Western view of Confession or with the tax cheat example you brought up in the OP.  Can you show me how the line of reasoning quoted above applies to ANYTHING we've talked about in this thread?
Why yes it does. What if I overpaid the year prier to that by twenty dollars. Am I not entitled to my money back? If I am than it's not a sin is it? You call me a sinner. Who's the real sinner now?
Honestly, Demetrios, I have no idea what you're trying to prove, since you keep dodging my questions and keep trying to avoid making any logical connections between your several disparate analogies.  Also, you keep trying to make this personal with your implications that I'm calling you a sinner or that I'm implying things that do not follow from my replies in the slightest.

I asked you to define for me a Western understanding of Confession, and, so far, you have yet to do so.  If you don't want to answer my question, then just say so and stop calling my understanding of Confession "Western".  You don't have to keep doing this stupid little dance you like to do.
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« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2009, 09:38:55 PM »

I'll give you a prime example of what I'm illuminating PTA. A person who has a sinful heart will see sin in everything around him. When he looks at a woman he has lust in his eyes. When a regular person sees a woman he will admire her in a respectable way acknowledging her beauty but not in a lustful way. Both men are doing the same thing, yet one is a sinner and the other justified. Are both these punishable sins. No way. Elder Paisios told us this in simple words. A fly will find filth and a bee will find flowers in the exact same place. Wink
But that has absolutely nothing to do with either my specific inquiry into what you understand to be the Western view of Confession or with the tax cheat example you brought up in the OP.  Can you show me how the line of reasoning quoted above applies to ANYTHING we've talked about in this thread?
Why yes it does. What if I overpaid the year prier to that by twenty dollars. Am I not entitled to my money back? If I am than it's not a sin is it? You call me a sinner. Who's the real sinner now?
Honestly, Demetrios, I have no idea what you're trying to prove, since you keep dodging my questions and keep trying to avoid making any logical connections between your several disparate analogies.  Also, you keep trying to make this personal with your implications that I'm calling you a sinner or that I'm implying things that do not follow from my replies in the slightest.

I asked you to define for me a Western understanding of Confession, and, so far, you have yet to do so.  If you don't want to answer my question, then just say so and stop calling my understanding of Confession "Western".  You don't have to keep doing this stupid little dance you like to do.
I'll tell you an old Greek saying. Ama bis sto horo tha horepsiss. Wink
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« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2009, 09:44:30 PM »

I'll tell you an old Greek saying. Ama bis sto horo tha horepiss. Wink

Demetrios, please translate this into English.
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« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2009, 09:56:22 PM »

It's one of those sayings that in translation may not sound right.
 "If you enter a dance than you must dance"
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« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2009, 09:58:33 PM »

It's one of those sayings that in translation may not sound right.
 "If you enter a dance than you must dance"
But I'm not entering this dance.  I'm trying to get you to STOP dancing and actually offer a cogent argument for some of the things you've said on this thread.
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