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« on: February 09, 2009, 06:20:57 PM »

Father Bless...Were the Greek old calendar at one time joined with the new calendar and spit for some reason or another to be more traditional..
If it was maybe this is a carry over from the time you were united...

I don't know much about greek old calendar ....
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2009, 06:30:58 PM »

Father Bless...Were the Greek old calendar at one time joined with the new calendar and spit for some reason or another to be more traditional..
If it was maybe this is a carry over from the time you were united...

I don't know much about greek old calendar ....
Excellent question, but totally unrelated to the topic of this discussion.  You will get a much better answer to this question if you make it the topic of a new thread.
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 06:40:01 PM »

Father Bless...Were the Greek old calendar at one time joined with the new calendar and spit for some reason or another to be more traditional..
If it was maybe this is a carry over from the time you were united...

I don't know much about greek old calendar ....
Excellent question, but totally unrelated to the topic of this discussion.  You will get a much better answer to this question if you make it the topic of a new thread.


                       im trying to tie it in with this .......
Father Bless...Were the Greek old calendar at one time joined with the new calendar and spit for some reason or another to be more traditional..
If it was maybe this is a carry over from the time you were united...

I don't know much about greek old calendar ....






Forget the fact that I am an Old Calendarist. I mention it because our practices are often more strict and less modernized and most people know that--it is important data for when comparing various national traditions and practices--but since you have a problem with it, forget it.

Address the fact that the communion prayers themselves say that Communion forgives sins (and that we should in fact be receiving communion frequently [Prayer 3 in particular].
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 06:46:49 PM »

Father Bless...Were the Greek old calendar at one time joined with the new calendar and spit for some reason or another to be more traditional..
If it was maybe this is a carry over from the time you were united...

I don't know much about greek old calendar ....
Excellent question, but totally unrelated to the topic of this discussion.  You will get a much better answer to this question if you make it the topic of a new thread.


                       im trying to tie it in with this .......
Father Bless...Were the Greek old calendar at one time joined with the new calendar and spit for some reason or another to be more traditional..
If it was maybe this is a carry over from the time you were united...

I don't know much about greek old calendar ....






Forget the fact that I am an Old Calendarist. I mention it because our practices are often more strict and less modernized and most people know that--it is important data for when comparing various national traditions and practices--but since you have a problem with it, forget it.

Address the fact that the communion prayers themselves say that Communion forgives sins (and that we should in fact be receiving communion frequently [Prayer 3 in particular].
What Fr. Anastasios is saying is that your concern about his jurisdiction is not relevant to his discussion with you.  Only the prayers of Communion mean anything to this discussion, so you should focus solely on this and not even concern yourself with his jurisdiction.
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2009, 06:58:05 PM »

Dear Stashko,

God bless you.

I will form a new thread for you when I return home. Thank you for your question.

In Christ,
Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2009, 09:49:09 PM »

Hi Stashko,

Basically there was an enyclical from the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1920:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jim_forest/Ecupat.htm

We thought this was bad because it obscured the differences between Churches.

Then in 1924 they changed the Calendar in Greece and about 10-25% (hard to count exactly) did not go along with it. No bishops stayed on the Old Calendar but some priests did and priests from Mount Athos would come and celebrate liturgies for those without a priest.

Some bishops who were on the New Calendar felt uncomfortable with it and the priests asked them to return to the Old Calendar since the Church needs bishops.

In 1935 three did return to the Old Calendar organized all the parishes and priests. They believed that the other bishops would realize that this was the right course of action and later return with them (in fact, it seems from the correspondence of Met Chrysostomos of Florina, that some of the other bishops were in fact thinking about it).  Unfortunately as we all know this did not happen. We also have to understand the political changes that were happening at this time in Greece that influenced all of these effects.

There were some persecutions and also an internal split in the Old Calendar Church. This meant all the bishops died out eventually.  So ROCOR made new bishops for us in the 1960's.

We have not done some of the other changes you see in the New Calendar Churches and for this reason we are considered to be more strict/traditional. When the ecumenical movement increased from theory to practice, we resisted this as well.

I hope this answers your question and if you have any other questions please let me know.

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2009, 09:49:45 PM »

Dear Stashko,

God bless you.

I will form a new thread for you when I return home. Thank you for your question.

In Christ,
Fr Anastasios

I would also be interested in the history of splits and etc.  Thanks in advance! 
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2009, 09:56:27 PM »

Bless father!

Could you also clarify for me how the Old Calendarist Church views the rest of Orthodoxy?  I've never fully understood exactly what the whole "walled off" or "in resistance" description actually meant, especially in actual day-to-day practice?
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 09:59:27 PM »

Bless father!

Could you also clarify for me how the Old Calendarist Church views the rest of Orthodoxy?  I've never fully understood exactly what the whole "walled off" or "in resistance" description actually meant, especially in actual day-to-day practice?

And also their connection if any to the other Greek non-communion groups such as HOCNA and etc.?  Sorry if this is too much, but it's a really interesting movement/history. 
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2009, 12:23:00 AM »

Hi Stashko,

Basically there was an enyclical from the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1920:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jim_forest/Ecupat.htm

We thought this was bad because it obscured the differences between Churches.

Then in 1924 they changed the Calendar in Greece and about 10-25% (hard to count exactly) did not go along with it. No bishops stayed on the Old Calendar but some priests did and priests from Mount Athos would come and celebrate liturgies for those without a priest.

Some bishops who were on the New Calendar felt uncomfortable with it and the priests asked them to return to the Old Calendar since the Church needs bishops.

In 1935 three did return to the Old Calendar organized all the parishes and priests. They believed that the other bishops would realize that this was the right course of action and later return with them (in fact, it seems from the correspondence of Met Chrysostomos of Florina, that some of the other bishops were in fact thinking about it).  Unfortunately as we all know this did not happen. We also have to understand the political changes that were happening at this time in Greece that influenced all of these effects.

There were some persecutions and also an internal split in the Old Calendar Church. This meant all the bishops died out eventually.  So ROCOR made new bishops for us in the 1960's.

We have not done some of the other changes you see in the New Calendar Churches and for this reason we are considered to be more strict/traditional. When the ecumenical movement increased from theory to practice, we resisted this as well.

I hope this answers your question and if you have any other questions please let me know.

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios

Father, Bless!

Please forgive my ignorance for the question, father, but if I may ask, as ROCOR ordained the Old Calendarist bishops in the 1960's, is the GOC in communion with the ROCOR church?  Just curious...

Thank you for your patience!

In Christ,
Presbytera Mari
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2009, 09:48:21 AM »

Being fairly new to Orthodoxy, I have begun to study the calendar differences. I cannot understand why the Holy Orthodox Church damaged her unity with this issue. It makes no sense to me. It also makes no sense that they do not return to the Julian Calendar today. I would suggest anyone who would like to learn more, to do research on Patriarch Meletius Metaxakis.

It is a very sad story.  Cry

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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2009, 10:20:35 AM »

 Cry
Being fairly new to Orthodoxy, I have begun to study the calendar differences. I cannot understand why the Holy Orthodox Church damaged her unity with this issue.
Cry Cry

We can pray (and I think that we are bound to pray)  that the Church, and in particular our hierarchs, learnt a lesson from the introduction of the Revised Calendar.   The disunity and bitterness which it caused are an object lesson. I hope the bishops will never again attempt to introduce any changes into the Church which have the potential to cause schism and pit brother against brother.

It is because of this potential for schism that Fr (Saint) Justin Popovich wrote so strongly against holding the planned Great and Holy Synod (which could be accepted as the Eighth Ecumenical Council.)
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2009, 10:39:42 AM »

Dear Stashko,

God bless you.

I will form a new thread for you when I return home. Thank you for your question.

In Christ,
Fr Anastasios

I would also be interested in the history of splits and etc.  Thanks in advance! 

One of the commonly pointed-out problems with the GOC is that there are now several claimants to the title "Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece."  The criticism goes that if the GOC is the real Orthodox Church, why is it internally divided; this is proof it is schismatic, etc.

I can only agree that it is a problem, although I think there are two considerations.  The first is that this is not the first time that a group resisting a heresy fractured in the face of the immense difficulty of the situation (I think of the aftermath of the Council of Nicaea for instance).  The situation during the majority of the history of the GOC was one of persecution (churches being seized, etc) and that played a part in it.  Eventually in the Nicene case, the disparate parties rejoined and vanquished the Arians together.  The other consideration is that our ordinations are given more recognitions than our depositions (!) so for instance, if we ordain someone a bishop, everyone calls him bishop, even if the New Calendar folks don't recognize him sacramentally, they still will accord him the courtesy of using the title and treat him as "the Old Calendar bishop of x" but then if that bishop is deposed by the Synod, they don't seem to accept that we deposed him. When this person goes off and starts his own Church, suddenly we hear that "Look at those Old Calendarists, they are all split up."  No one takes the time to do some simple stats--there is one Synod that makes up the vast majority of the GOC, has the majority of the parishes, monasteries, bishops, clergy, people, and historical places, documents, etc.--the Synod of Archbishop Chrysostomos II (Kiousis).  The other split offs together compose a minority and are in ever-shifting alliances and combinations.  I think of the split offs that arose in America in the 1920's all calling themselves the American Orthodox Church--only the Church of Metropolitan Platon, which eventually fixed its relations with the other churches--was ever the "real" Metropolia. But having said that I do understand that the situation is disconcerting.

HOCNA is a unique situation in that they did not come from the GOC of Greece but rather were with ROCOR.  When they split with ROCOR instead of joining the main Synod of the GOC, they joined with a deposed former Archbishop of the GOC who still had a small following.  Now that almost all those players are deceased, though, there doesn't seem to be any reason to be separate and I believe something could be worked out.

The other Synod you might see on the internet is that of Metropolitan Cyprian (the Synod in Resistance) which consists of a group of archimandrites who were consecrated in irregular circumstances and attempted to purify the Synod of perceived problems.  The majority of these new bishops were reconciled but Metropolitan Cyprian and one other bishop stayed separate because they did not believe the problems that precipitated the original action were resolved.  They are the Synod which has a self-described moderate position towards the New Calendar, and were in communion with ROCOR for some years until the latter decided to rejoin the Moscow Patriarchate.

The above is a gross simplification due to lack of time. One can find the various positions and documents floating about the internet.
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2009, 10:45:39 AM »

Bless father!

Could you also clarify for me how the Old Calendarist Church views the rest of Orthodoxy?  I've never fully understood exactly what the whole "walled off" or "in resistance" description actually meant, especially in actual day-to-day practice?

God bless you!

There is a range of opinions that matches the range of opinions found in the New Calendar/so-called "World Orthodoxy" towards us--"basically Orthodox with some problems that need to be fixed" to "graceless heretics/schismatics."

Walling off/resistance is a theory proposed by some whereby the confessing bishops separate administratively from those who have started to (but not completed) slide into some heresy, in the hopes of providing a wake-up call and providing a safe haven for the faithful, but do not condemn the erring bishops before an ecumenical council can be held.

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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2009, 10:46:36 AM »

Bless father!

Could you also clarify for me how the Old Calendarist Church views the rest of Orthodoxy?  I've never fully understood exactly what the whole "walled off" or "in resistance" description actually meant, especially in actual day-to-day practice?

And also their connection if any to the other Greek non-communion groups such as HOCNA and etc.?  Sorry if this is too much, but it's a really interesting movement/history. 

Just to elaborate on what I wrote above, HOCNA came through the Russian Church and has a bit of a different history than us. We do not disagree with them majorly on issues of faith though so there is some discussion about what it would take to have a union.
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2009, 10:49:52 AM »

Father, Bless!

Please forgive my ignorance for the question, father, but if I may ask, as ROCOR ordained the Old Calendarist bishops in the 1960's, is the GOC in communion with the ROCOR church?  Just curious...

Thank you for your patience!

In Christ,
Presbytera Mari

God bless you!

We were in official and full communion with ROCOR from 1969.  Unfortunately, owing to the nebulous situation in Greece, and also to a difference in opinion between bishops such as Met Philaret and Arch Anthony in ROCOR as to the ROCOR's stance towards those in the New Calendar, by the late 1970's, this official communion was suspended.  Relations continued, however, and a group of Old Calendarists restored communion with ROCOR from 1994 to 2006. As the union with Moscow was announced, however, relations were finally and definitely severed in all aspects, because we believe such a move was premature and ill-advised.
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2009, 10:50:44 AM »

Being fairly new to Orthodoxy, I have begun to study the calendar differences. I cannot understand why the Holy Orthodox Church damaged her unity with this issue. It makes no sense to me. It also makes no sense that they do not return to the Julian Calendar today. I would suggest anyone who would like to learn more, to do research on Patriarch Meletius Metaxakis.

It is a very sad story.  Cry



It is a sad story, but the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church of Christ. There have been other big problems in the Church which were resolved. This issue can and God-willing will be resolved.
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2009, 11:01:56 AM »

It is a sad story, but the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church of Christ. There have been other big problems in the Church which were resolved. This issue can and God-willing will be resolved.
Bless Father,

You are correct. And my daily prayers include a heart felt plea for the resolution of this blemish to unity. Thank you.

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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 11:05:53 AM »

Why don't you join any mainstream OC jurisdiction (OCA, Serbian, Russian) if EP or GOAC won't allow you to keep the Julian calendar (but Ukrainians and ACROD's are allowed)?

There is Serbian Church of Spain. National Church of Jewish country and Arab believers has 'Greek' in it's name. Russian and Antiochian Churches use Roman and Celtic Masses. There is Polish Archdiocese in Brazil. It want be as odd as some of these but you will be together with us.

Please accept my apologise if I insulted you. Those diversity of mainstream and non-mainstream Churches is hardly understandable for me. In Poland we have only one mainstream EO Church, one OO parish (Coptic), 4 parishes of Old Believers and 3 Eastern Catholic organisations (Ukrainian, Armenian and Neo-uniate). There is only one expelled priest who tend to act as 'genuine'.
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2009, 04:34:48 PM »

Father, Bless!

Please forgive my ignorance for the question, father, but if I may ask, as ROCOR ordained the Old Calendarist bishops in the 1960's, is the GOC in communion with the ROCOR church?  Just curious...

Thank you for your patience!

In Christ,
Presbytera Mari

God bless you!

We were in official and full communion with ROCOR from 1969.  Unfortunately, owing to the nebulous situation in Greece, and also to a difference in opinion between bishops such as Met Philaret and Arch Anthony in ROCOR as to the ROCOR's stance towards those in the New Calendar, by the late 1970's, this official communion was suspended.  Relations continued, however, and a group of Old Calendarists restored communion with ROCOR from 1994 to 2006. As the union with Moscow was announced, however, relations were finally and definitely severed in all aspects, because we believe such a move was premature and ill-advised.

Now, is the GOC in communion with the ROCOR PSCA then since they resisted the Act of Communion with Moscow?

Also Father, what is the official stance of your Synod on the issue of grace with the Churches of the so called "World Orthodoxy"?
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2009, 04:54:47 PM »

Dear Mike,

Why don't you join any mainstream OC jurisdiction (OCA, Serbian, Russian) if EP or GOAC won't allow you to keep the Julian calendar (but Ukrainians and ACROD's are allowed)?

The Calendar is only one part of the greater issue of ecumenism and modernism which we see influencing various national Churches.  We cannot restore communion until these issues are resolved.

There have been a few Old Calendarists who tried to join the EP in the past and they made a point that they were going to work from within the structure for reform. But within a few years they were indistinguishable from everyone else.

Quote
There is Serbian Church of Spain. National Church of Jewish country and Arab believers has 'Greek' in it's name. Russian and Antiochian Churches use Roman and Celtic Masses. There is Polish Archdiocese in Brazil. It want be as odd as some of these but you will be together with us.

Another Old Calendarist group in Portugal once joined with your Synod but things did not work out...I believe there were some bad people in that group, but I also wonder if cultural and language differences played any role in the misunderstandings?

That being said, for me, I am an American, but I don't care what ethnicity the bishops are.  When we had no bishop in America, we were under the Russians (in the 1950's and early 60's). That was never a problem.  The issue is that we do not agree with membership in the World Council of Churches, joint prayers, etc.

Quote
Please accept my apologise if I insulted you. Those diversity of mainstream and non-mainstream Churches is hardly understandable for me. In Poland we have only one mainstream EO Church, one OO parish (Coptic), 4 parishes of Old Believers and 3 Eastern Catholic organisations (Ukrainian, Armenian and Neo-uniate). There is only one expelled priest who tend to act as 'genuine'.

Your questions are fine, and I am not insulted.

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 05:01:15 PM »



Now, is the GOC in communion with the ROCOR PSCA then since they resisted the Act of Communion with Moscow?

Also Father, what is the official stance of your Synod on the issue of grace with the Churches of the so called "World Orthodoxy"?

Dear Andrew,

The ROCOR PCSA is in communion with the Synod in Resistance, the "other" Old Calendarist group I alluded to above.  However, our relations with Metropolitan Agafangel are good, and we were at the banquet after his Church canonized St Philaret (ROCOR Metropolitan Philaret).

The official stance of our Synod towards the New Calendar Church of Greece is the same as its stance towards us*: no grace.  However, "actual mileage may vary."  The position was not intended to be a diagnosis of the entire "rest of Orthodoxy" but was only a reaction to the New Calendar bishops who had condemned our Synod and then begun to arrest the bishops and priests of our Church in the 30's through 60's.  One notes, however, that in other traditionalists/Old Calendar synods of other national Churches, the position in regards to the New Calendar may vary.  While I agree that heretics cannot possess grace, I also am reminded of the fact that there are quite a many people in the mainstream Churches that decry ecumenism as much as we do.  While I think that "resisting from within" is problematic and untenable, I am not quick to jump on the bandwagon of making final judgments to this situation given that I think it is still very much "in play."

in Christ,

Fr Anastasios

(* I am referring to the State Church of Greece and not speaking for any other national Church).
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2009, 05:12:24 PM »

Blagoslovi Oce....Fr.Bless ....who is the majority in Greece and the islands.. is it the new or the old calendar.....or is it about even ......
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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2009, 05:14:10 PM »

Blagoslovi Oce....Fr.Bless ....who is the majority in Greece and the islands.. is it the new or the old calendar.....or is it about even ......

Dear Stashko,

The majority has always been New Calendar since the change in 1924.

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2009, 05:20:53 PM »

Are all the New calendar faithful in greece and the islands under the Ecumenical Patriarch ............it's so confusing....And thank you for your replies....Fr. Bless.......
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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2009, 05:26:29 PM »

Are all the New calendar faithful in greece and the islands under the Ecumenical Patriarch ............it's so confusing....And thank you for your replies....Fr. Bless.......

God bless you!

Most of Greece is autocephalous from the Ecumenical Patriarchate because it was independent of the Ottoman Empire in the 1820's.  Some land in North Greece that was given to Greece in the 1910's is still technically under the Ecumenical Patriarchate but administered by the Church of Greece.

At least one island, Cyprus, is also autocephalous. I do not know the status of all the other islands.

in Christ,

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2009, 05:27:33 PM »

Are all the New calendar faithful in greece and the islands under the Ecumenical Patriarch ............it's so confusing....And thank you for your replies....Fr. Bless.......

No, the New Calendar faithful in Greece span both areas: the "old Greece" (southern mainland, Peloponnisos, & many islands) under the Archdiocese of Athens & All Greece, and the "New Lands" (northern mainland & some islands) under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2009, 05:43:07 PM »

While I think that "resisting from within" is problematic and untenable, I am not quick to jump on the bandwagon of making final judgments to this situation given that I think it is still very much "in play."

in Christ,

Fr Anastasios

If you don't mind Father, could you please explain the reason why you think "resisting from within" is problematic and untenable? I'm just trying to get a better understanding about the stance of the Old Calendarist churches.
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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2009, 06:48:32 PM »



Now, is the GOC in communion with the ROCOR PSCA then since they resisted the Act of Communion with Moscow?

Also Father, what is the official stance of your Synod on the issue of grace with the Churches of the so called "World Orthodoxy"?

Dear Andrew,

The ROCOR PCSA is in communion with the Synod in Resistance, the "other" Old Calendarist group I alluded to above.  However, our relations with Metropolitan Agafangel are good, and we were at the banquet after his Church canonized St Philaret (ROCOR Metropolitan Philaret).

The official stance of our Synod towards the New Calendar Church of Greece is the same as its stance towards us*: no grace.  However, "actual mileage may vary."  The position was not intended to be a diagnosis of the entire "rest of Orthodoxy" but was only a reaction to the New Calendar bishops who had condemned our Synod and then begun to arrest the bishops and priests of our Church in the 30's through 60's.  One notes, however, that in other traditionalists/Old Calendar synods of other national Churches, the position in regards to the New Calendar may vary.  While I agree that heretics cannot possess grace, I also am reminded of the fact that there are quite a many people in the mainstream Churches that decry ecumenism as much as we do.  While I think that "resisting from within" is problematic and untenable, I am not quick to jump on the bandwagon of making final judgments to this situation given that I think it is still very much "in play."

in Christ,

Fr Anastasios

(* I am referring to the State Church of Greece and not speaking for any other national Church).

Thanks, Father. I always wondered about our Synod's position. I came to the GOC through reading about True Orthodoxy, and a lot of the internet-available literature (at least in English), is quite strict (i.e. _all_ the World Orthodox are in schism and devoid of grace). It's good to know that our Synod's declarations are in fact meant to be understood in the context of the Church of Greece only. It's also good to remind people who criticize us on this position that it was the New Calendarist State Church which was the first to start anathematizing the opposition, even calling us 'graceless' (hence the outrages committed by NC fanatics e.g. trampling on the Holy Mysteries, which from their POV were not true Mysteries).

Incidentally, does anyone know about the attitude of the Jerusalem Patriarchate to the GOC? My impression is that the JP has for a long time been sitting on the fence regarding the calendar schism (like having communion with both sides, maybe not both on an official level).
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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2009, 10:15:29 PM »

PARTIAL REPLY TO REPLY #28

I'm not sure if they officially share Holy Communion, but there are cordial relations between the Jerusalem Patriarchate and the moderate Old Calendar Synod in Resistance, which is headquartered in Fili, Greece.  Former Patriarch Diodoros, of Thrice Blessed Memory, participated (I think---he may have just attended) a service (not the Divine Liturgy) during a visit to Fili.  He spoke very warmly about the Synod in Resistance and its witness.  That may have been what shortly thereafter prompted Patriarch Bartholomew to convene an extraordinary synod which sanctioned Patriarch Diodoros, ostensibly for establishing monasteries in the diaspora, which, of course, Bartholomew claims is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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