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Poll
Question: Which is used?
English - 70 (39.3%)
Greek - 32 (18%)
Church Slavonic - 22 (12.4%)
Ukrainian - 9 (5.1%)
Serbian - 6 (3.4%)
Bulgarian - 1 (0.6%)
Romanian - 6 (3.4%)
Russian - 3 (1.7%)
Arab - 10 (5.6%)
Rusyn/Lemko - 0 (0%)
Latin - 2 (1.1%)
Spanish - 1 (0.6%)
Albanian - 0 (0%)
Other - 16 (9%)
Total Voters: 96

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Author Topic: Liturgical languages in your Churches  (Read 16148 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: February 08, 2009, 04:18:49 PM »

Just of curiosity. I'm interested in how it goes in your parishes. Or maybe you have some mixed services or several in different languages. Please write your experiences with it.

You can choose 3 options because you can also your former parishes. If I had missed any important language please, Mods, add it.

In my parish Church services is in Church Slavonic. Sermon is partly in Russian Partly in Polish. I've also attended services in Bulgarian, Belarusian and Greek.
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2009, 04:29:09 PM »

My current parish uses a mixture of Greek and English. I'd say the majority of it is done in English, with some Greek thrown in. Or at least enough English is done that I can follow along the Greek parts in English in the pew book provided. The sermon is said entirely in English, the Creed is done entirely in English, and the Lord's prayer is said first in Greek, then in English. The Gospel and the Epistle are said in Greek and in English.

The parish I grew up in was a Ukrainian/English mix. Similar mix as to what I go to now.

I've also attended services at an Antiochian parish in NJ that mixed Arabic and English, Ukrainian parishes where it was entirely in Ukrainian, and a Greek parish where it was entirely in Greek.

I know this is random, but I'd love to hear the Liturgy in French. I studied French for six years, and it's such a beautiful language that I think the Liturgy would just sound wonderful in French.
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2009, 07:49:21 PM »

I've been to two parishes, both OCA and both >99% English. Each had a reader that liked to throw in some Kyrie Eleison's/Gospodi Pomiluj's/Yara Burham's now and then during the Hours, but that's it.
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2009, 08:35:52 PM »

Staro Slovenska liturgija,,,Serbian [prepovadanje]sermon and in some serbian churches  english liturgy followed by old slovanik liturgy............
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2009, 08:39:39 PM »

My Sunday Liturgy is primarily English, with some Greek. In Orthros on Sundays we use those languages and a smattering of Arabic, French, or German.

My weekday Liturgies are primarily Greek with a smattering of English, depending on the crowd that day.
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2009, 08:40:32 PM »

Finnish, with some Swedish and Russian (or is it Church Slavonic, how would I know?) added for spice.
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 10:51:28 PM »

Classical Armenian
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 11:08:00 PM »

The Gospel reading, Creed and the Lord's Prayer are repeated in English. Everything else is all Greek.
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 11:29:20 PM »

My Sunday Liturgy is primarily English, with some Greek. In Orthros on Sundays we use those languages and a smattering of Arabic, French, or German.

My weekday Liturgies are primarily Greek with a smattering of English, depending on the crowd that day.

Interesting as that reflects my parish as well (both in usage and congregation - minus Arabic, French and German).  Sunday Orthros is nearly 100% English these days and is mostly attended by people who prefer English.  OTOH, weekday liturgies (especially days like Saturday of the Souls) are mostly Greek. 
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 11:45:23 PM »

My Sunday Liturgy is primarily English, with some Greek. In Orthros on Sundays we use those languages and a smattering of Arabic, French, or German.

My weekday Liturgies are primarily Greek with a smattering of English, depending on the crowd that day.

Interesting as that reflects my parish as well (both in usage and congregation - minus Arabic, French and German).  Sunday Orthros is nearly 100% English these days and is mostly attended by people who prefer English.  OTOH, weekday liturgies (especially days like Saturday of the Souls) are mostly Greek. 

This seems to be the right 'balance' in the GOA parishes I have served in outside of New England (while in New England I was assigned to several Capital G Greek parishes to work on my language skills, etc).

What's interesting is that one of my chanters is from Lebanon, so he chants in Arabic and French. We have several Arabic families attend my parish because the local Antiochian parish has had its own demographics shift away from a Mediterranean culture, and so to be surrounded in a culture that they feel comfortable in those particular families come to my parish.

C'est la vie!
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 07:00:31 AM »

^ I guess we need to add French to the list. Wink

In my parish, only English is spoken. Every so often we have a non-English-speaker who asks for some things to be added in their language. Bishop Job feels that such a move would be a step backwards, and insists that a parish which can serve Liturgy in the native tongue of the area only change languages if that area's demographics change sufficiently (e.g. English speakers move out and Spanish speakers move in), and even then only as oikonomia. The parish should attempt to return to English as quickly as is appropriate for the parishioners.

That said, we sing the Lord have mercies at Pascha and Pentecost in as many languages as we have represented, because the Resurrection of Christ is the resurrection of all, and because at Pentecost Babel was undone.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 03:17:46 PM »

Finnish, with some Swedish and Russian (or is it Church Slavonic, how would I know?) added for spice.

Occasionally at Uspensky Cathedral in Helsinki, and rarely at Holy Trinity Church in the same city, some prayers are said in English for the benefit of any foreigners who might be present.
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 03:32:13 PM »

Divine Liturgy is almost always exclusively in English, although Father will occasionally toss in some Slavonic here and there.

When we have panakhidas afterwards, sometimes it's in Slavonic and sometimes it's in English.  I think it depends on whether or not the person being prayed for grew up/had an affinity for Slavonic, but I can't be sure.

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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 03:39:32 PM »

While I may have select English, Greek and Slavonic, it really is over 90% English with some Slavonic and occasional greek thrown in (Greek usually just a litany or two and occasional prayer, same with Slavonic, but a little more and the choir sometimes sings the Trisagion, Cherubic Hymn, It is truly Meet and Receive the Body of Christ in Slavonic).
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 05:02:29 PM »


Ok, here goes....

Ukrainian Parish (of USA) - my parish - mostly Ukrainian, with some English (depends on the makeup of the faithful that day.  If the priest sees unfamiliar faces, there's more English)
Romanian parish I visited - 100% Romanian - didn't understand a single word.
Antiochian parish I visited - mix of Arabic and English.  Gospel read in both.
Greek - mix of Greek and English
Serbian - mix of Serbian, English and Church Slavonic.  Most hymns were in Church slavonic, not English or Serbian.
Russian - 100% Russian
OCA - 100% English
Coptic - 100% something.  Didn't understand it.  I don't know what language it was and don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by guessing wrongly.
Bulgarian - they had a mix.  English and Bulgarian.
Malenkarian - don't know...never made it past the Narthex.

Wow....I am truly blessed to have such a variety - all within 20 miles of my home.

Of course....without a doublt...I prefer hearing the Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian (with some English thrown in for good measure!)
 Wink
 


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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 05:11:55 PM »

St. Andrew's uses a mixture of both English and Ukrainian.  The readings are in both languages and the sermons are generally in both languages.  Some exclamations by the clergy are done twice, in both languages.  Father will at times do Baptisms and Marriages in church Slavonic and Russian, it depends on the people requesting the service.
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2009, 05:15:00 PM »

Vast majority in Church Slavonic, with a wee bit of Russian.
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2009, 06:10:02 PM »

My parish only uses English and Greek (with the exception of Pascha and the Agape Vespers).

I do know of a Greek Church in Charlotte (not the Cathedral) that has been known to use Arabic and a Slavic language (I don't remember which one) in addition to Greek and English because of a few families there.
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2009, 06:36:16 PM »

English is used almost %100 although sometimes Father will do a litany and other things in Greek and Arabic.
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2009, 07:02:47 PM »

Just of curiosity. I'm interested in how it goes in your parishes. Or maybe you have some mixed services or several in different languages. Please write your experiences with it.

You can choose 3 options because you can also your former parishes. If I had missed any important language please, Mods, add it.

In my parish Church services is in Church Slavonic. Sermon is partly in Russian Partly in Polish. I've also attended services in Bulgarian, Belarusian and Greek.

Father Chris has already told about languages in his parish (which is also my parish Smiley ).

In other parishes I visited:

Milan Synod parish in Starkville, Mississippi (2007): everything in English, except the priest occasionally said "Kirie eleison, Khriste eleison" (Greek).

UOC-USA in Seattle, in the 1990-s: almost everything in modern vernacular Ukrainian; the priest sometimes read the Gospel in Ukrainian and then the same passage in English; the reader usually read Psalm 145(146) ("Do not put your trust in princes...") in Ukrainian and then in English. All liturgical exclamations were in Ukrainian, always.

UOC (KP) in Kyiv, summer 2008 (four different parishes): everything in modern vernacular Ukrainian.

UAOC (St. Andrew parish in Kyiv), summer 2008: everything in modern vernacular Ukrainian.

Childhood reminiscences about how it used to be in Kyiv churches when it was all "USSR" and there was no such thing as UOC: everything in Old Church Slavonic, and I did not understand a word. Sad
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2009, 01:55:26 AM »

My parish uses 100% English (Antiochian)
The other Antiochian parish I attend uses English 90%: Classical Arabic* 10%: and during feast days or when the bishop visits Greek 5%.

A few weeks ago, when discussing liturgical languages with one of the scholars in our parish, I was fascinated when I found out that in Greek Orthodox parishes there are three different dialects of Greek used.

From what I understand, Byzantine Greek is used for all the prayers and hymns. My fellow parishioner explained that the highly educated Church Fathers (ie: St. Gregory the Theologian) made a concerted effort to return to the use of a higher form of Greek used in earlier time periods (Attic Greek). He explained that the reason for this return was the older forms of Greek allowed for more flexibility, beauty and poetics for writing the prayers and hymns used in the services than the more everyday Koine Greek used to write the New Testament. He then went on to explain that the only time Koine Greek is heard during the Divine Liturgy is during the readings of the Epistle and Gospel (Koine was only used for a short time in the early church history). Finally, he shared with me that any readings from the Septuagint are read in a strange form of Greek that is actually a  literal translation from the Hebrew and because of this literal aspect sounds very strange to those who study Greek. But for many years it was regarded as holy translation from God because it sounded so different. It wasn't until recently, scholars learned this unusual form of Greek was used for a time in Egypt in regular written transactions and records.

*Classical Arabic is not the colloquial Arabic used for everyday conversation. For this reason I believe many Arab immigrants have a hard time understanding the Divine Liturgy in Arabic unless they have a written service book to follow because Classical Arabic is used in written form and understood when read by all Arabs. I wonder if it is similar to our situation when we hear old English like Chaucer? We can decipher the meaning if we read it but when we hear it almost sounds like a foreign language.
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2009, 02:01:41 AM »

For those who selected "Church Slavonic" I wonder how many people's church use more than a triple litany "Gospodi Pomiluj" and actually sing a decent amount of the liturgy in Church Slavonic? 
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2009, 02:19:36 AM »

For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2009, 09:35:41 AM »

For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68

I agree.

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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2009, 11:09:31 AM »

For those who chose English: is it modern version of language you use everyday or is it more sophisticated or older?
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2009, 12:47:44 PM »

For those who chose English: is it modern version of language you use everyday or is it more sophisticated or older?
Well, it's modern English that is appropriate for Liturgy. Certainly it is not colloquial English, but it is totally modern...usually. We do have some readers and hymns who will say "Thou" in reference to God, but mostly we use "You" even to refer to God. I don't believe there's any disrespect in doing so, especially since "thou" was originally a colloquial word and "you" was its formal counterpart (similar to "tu" and "vous" in French).
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2009, 12:50:53 PM »

For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68

The below version is actually in Old Church Slavonic. In the modern vernacular Russian, the words would be different (e.g., "прийдет" "настанет" instead of "приидет"; "как" isntead of "яко же"; "небесах" instead of "небесех", etc.

Abot the Ukrainian text of the Lord's Prayer - oh yes, I can't agree more.  Wink
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2009, 12:53:49 PM »

My parish uses 100% English (Antiochian)

Tamara, may I ask, why? And don't you miss Arabic?

It strikes me that in my Greek parish, the younger generation of ethnic Greeks does not know any Greek, and some even say that they cannot read the Greek words of the Divine Liturgy in our church book, let alone understand them.

In the Ukrainian diaspora, that extreme kind of Americanization would be an ultimate shame to the parents... Sad
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2009, 01:13:36 PM »

For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68

The below version is actually in Old Church Slavonic. In the modern vernacular Russian, the words would be different (e.g., "прийдет" "настанет" instead of "приидет"; "как" isntead of "яко же"; "небесах" instead of "небесех", etc.

Abot the Ukrainian text of the Lord's Prayer - oh yes, I can't agree more.  Wink

I apologize, I was going by the description on Youtube. As someone who doesn't speak any of the above, I'll have to take your word for it. Wink

(I've studied Ukrainian only a teeny tiny bit and only know enough to get me through Liturgy. Grin )
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2009, 01:47:06 PM »

For those who chose English: is it modern version of language you use everyday or is it more sophisticated or older?
Well, it's modern English that is appropriate for Liturgy. Certainly it is not colloquial English, but it is totally modern...usually. We do have some readers and hymns who will say "Thou" in reference to God, but mostly we use "You" even to refer to God. I don't believe there's any disrespect in doing so, especially since "thou" was originally a colloquial word and "you" was its formal counterpart (similar to "tu" and "vous" in French).

mike,

This is NOT uniform in the OCA.  "Y"'s parish is in Missouri and mine is in the California Wine country.  From what I've discussed with several clergy, the west coast is much more traditional in general across all jurisdictions (when looking at things from a language, praxis, church layout point of view).  I find it rather ironic since some people on the east coast nickname the west coast the "left" coast due to things politically, even though Orthodox-wise it is the not the case.  In my OCA parish, we use all "thee's" and "thou's" and generally use more traditional translations (e.g. Met. Kallistos/Mother Mary, Holy Transfiguration, Holy Trinity in Jordanville, etc.).
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« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2009, 03:33:21 PM »

For those who chose English: is it modern version of language you use everyday or is it more sophisticated or older?
Well, it's modern English that is appropriate for Liturgy. Certainly it is not colloquial English, but it is totally modern...usually. We do have some readers and hymns who will say "Thou" in reference to God, but mostly we use "You" even to refer to God. I don't believe there's any disrespect in doing so, especially since "thou" was originally a colloquial word and "you" was its formal counterpart (similar to "tu" and "vous" in French).

mike,

This is NOT uniform in the OCA.  "Y"'s parish is in Missouri and mine is in the California Wine country.  From what I've discussed with several clergy, the west coast is much more traditional in general across all jurisdictions (when looking at things from a language, praxis, church layout point of view).  I find it rather ironic since some people on the east coast nickname the west coast the "left" coast due to things politically, even though Orthodox-wise it is the not the case.  In my OCA parish, we use all "thee's" and "thou's" and generally use more traditional translations (e.g. Met. Kallistos/Mother Mary, Holy Transfiguration, Holy Trinity in Jordanville, etc.).

The OCA parish I used to attend in NJ also used the "thee's and thou's." As our Deacon's wife said, "We are not a "You-hoo" parish.  laugh

But to Mike's point, aside from the "thee's" and "thou's" it's all modern English that is understandable. It's not written in Shakespeare form or anything where we wouldn't be able to understand it. So "Liturgical English" (if there is such a thing) is not like "Church Slavonic" where it's an entirely different language that people have to study to understand. It's just a "prettier" way of saying things.  Smiley
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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2009, 03:38:08 PM »

Thanks four you explanations, I got to know many new things. But I'm interested in one more thing: which jurisdiction use Spanish?

Sorry for my constant questions but there is an incredible amount of things that are completely new to me.
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« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2009, 06:53:08 PM »

My parish uses 100% English (Antiochian)

Tamara, may I ask, why? And don't you miss Arabic?

It strikes me that in my Greek parish, the younger generation of ethnic Greeks does not know any Greek, and some even say that they cannot read the Greek words of the Divine Liturgy in our church book, let alone understand them.

In the Ukrainian diaspora, that extreme kind of Americanization would be an ultimate shame to the parents... Sad

Hi Heorhij,

The Antiochian parish I attend now is full of converts. We only have a few folks in our parish who are of Arab descent so it would make sense the Divine Liturgy would be completely in English. I have found attending Orthros or Vespers to be an intensive catechism lesson since we became members of this parish. In the parish I grew up in all of these services were in Arabic (100%). It has been very enlightening to attend services at this new parish. But I do miss hearing Byzantine chant. For those times, I pull out my CDs of Byzantine chant from Antioch or attend the other parish so I can hear it again. I feel lucky to have the option of hearing everything in English but I am also grateful to attend a parish that has chanters who learned their art in Damascus. I guess what I am saying is, I love both.  Smiley

I think the reason young Greeks cannot even understand the written service books is because they use the higher form of Greek (Byzantine) which was based on the Attic version of Greek. From what I understand, Byzantine Greek is a very complicated form of Greek to understand even for scholars.
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« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2009, 07:00:04 PM »

My parish uses 100% English (Antiochian)

Tamara, may I ask, why? And don't you miss Arabic?

It strikes me that in my Greek parish, the younger generation of ethnic Greeks does not know any Greek, and some even say that they cannot read the Greek words of the Divine Liturgy in our church book, let alone understand them.

In the Ukrainian diaspora, that extreme kind of Americanization would be an ultimate shame to the parents... Sad

Hi Heorhij,

The Antiochian parish I attend now is full of converts. We only have a few folks in our parish who are of Arab descent so it would make sense the Divine Liturgy would be completely in English. I have found attending Orthros or Vespers to be an intensive catechism lesson since we became members of this parish. In the parish I grew up in all of these services were in Arabic (100%). It has been very enlightening to attend services at this new parish. But I do miss hearing Byzantine chant. For those times, I pull out my CDs of Byzantine chant from Antioch or attend the other parish so I can hear it again. I feel lucky to have the option of hearing everything in English but I am also grateful to attend a parish that has chanters who learned their art in Damascus. I guess what I am saying is, I love both.  Smiley

I think the reason young Greeks cannot even understand the written service books is because they use the higher form of Greek (Byzantine) which was based on the Attic version of Greek. From what I understand, Byzantine Greek is a very complicated form of Greek to understand even for scholars.

I'm rather sure it's Koiné Greek, New Testament Greek.  It is different than modern colloquial Greek.  However it isn't that different, ie, compare Chaucer English to modern English or Church Slavonic to modern Ukrainian or Russian.
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« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2009, 07:16:09 PM »

I'm rather sure it's Koiné Greek, New Testament Greek.  It is different than modern colloquial Greek.  However it isn't that different, ie, compare Chaucer English to modern English or Church Slavonic to modern Ukrainian or Russian.

Only the New Testament readings are Koiné.
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« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2009, 07:34:39 PM »

I'm rather sure it's Koiné Greek, New Testament Greek.  It is different than modern colloquial Greek.  However it isn't that different, ie, compare Chaucer English to modern English or Church Slavonic to modern Ukrainian or Russian.

I see that comparison made a lot and if true means modern Greek speakers would have a very spotty understanding of Koine.

From the Knight's Tale:

But for to tellen yow of his array,
His hors were goode, but he was nat gay.
Of fustian he wered a gypon
Al bismotered with his habergeon,
For he was late ycome from his viage,
And wente for to doon his pilgrymage.
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« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2009, 08:03:57 PM »

For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68

The below version is actually in Old Church Slavonic. In the modern vernacular Russian, the words would be different (e.g., "прийдет" "настанет" instead of "приидет"; "как" isntead of "яко же"; "небесах" instead of "небесех", etc.

Abot the Ukrainian text of the Lord's Prayer - oh yes, I can't agree more.  Wink

I apologize, I was going by the description on Youtube. As someone who doesn't speak any of the above, I'll have to take your word for it. Wink

(I've studied Ukrainian only a teeny tiny bit and only know enough to get me through Liturgy. Grin )

No need to apologize. I guess it's a form of Slavonic that is not all that far from modern Russian.

Here is the text in this version of Slavonic:

Отче наш, иже еси на небесех, да святится имя Твое, да приидет Царствие Твое, да будет воля Твоя яко на небеси и на земли. Хлеб наш насущный даждь нам днесь, и остави нам долги наша, яко же и мы оставляем должником нашим, и не введи нас во искушение, но избави нас от лукаваго. Яко Твое есть Царствие, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святaго Духа, ныне, и присно, и во веки веков. Аминь.

Here is my translation into the modern vernacular Russian as I speak it (it is actually never used in the modern Russian Orthodox churches and I fail to comprehend why):

Отец наш, который на небесах, пусть святится имя Твое, пусть придет Царство Твое, пусть будет воля Твоя на земле так, как и на небе. Хлеб наш насущный дай нам сегодня, и прости нам вины наши, как и мы прощаем тем, кто виноват перед нами, и не допусти, чтобы мы искусились, но избавь нас от лукавого. Твои же и Царство, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святого Духа, ныне, и всегда, и во веки веков. Аминь.

Here is how it's said in modern Ukrainian Orthodox parishes, both in Ukraine and in diaspora:

Отче наш, що єси на небесах, нехай святиться ім'я Твоє, нехай прийде Царство Твоє, нехай буде воля Твоя як на небесах, так і на землі. Хліб наш насущний дай нам сьогодні, і прости нам провини наші, як і ми прощаємо винуватцям нашим, і не введи нас у спокусу, але визволи нас від лукавого. Бо Твоє є Царство, і сила, і слава, Отця, і Сина, і Святого Духа, нині, і повсякчас, і на віки віків. Амінь.
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« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2009, 08:54:28 PM »

this one is much closer to serbian....i like ...Отец наш, который на небесах, пусть святится имя Твое, пусть придет Царство Твое, пусть будет воля Твоя на земле так, как и на небе. Хлеб наш насущный дай нам сегодня, и прости нам вины наши, как и мы прощаем тем, кто виноват перед нами, и не допусти, чтобы мы искусились, но избавь нас от лукавого. Твои же и Царство, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святого Духа, ныне, и всегда, и во веки веков. Аминь..the other one is also readable and understandable...i like allso   both very nice ,,,,,,
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« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2009, 09:38:44 PM »

Thanks four you explanations, I got to know many new things. But I'm interested in one more thing: which jurisdiction use Spanish?

Sorry for my constant questions but there is an incredible amount of things that are completely new to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ8KI2Ik0QA Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2009, 11:36:36 PM »

St. Andrew Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Boston - UOC-USA.
Approximately 55% of modern vernacular English and 45% of modern vernacular Ukrainian.

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« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2009, 01:14:42 AM »

For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68

The below version is actually in Old Church Slavonic. In the modern vernacular Russian, the words would be different (e.g., "прийдет" "настанет" instead of "приидет"; "как" isntead of "яко же"; "небесах" instead of "небесех", etc.

Abot the Ukrainian text of the Lord's Prayer - oh yes, I can't agree more.  Wink

I apologize, I was going by the description on Youtube. As someone who doesn't speak any of the above, I'll have to take your word for it. Wink

(I've studied Ukrainian only a teeny tiny bit and only know enough to get me through Liturgy. Grin )

No need to apologize. I guess it's a form of Slavonic that is not all that far from modern Russian.

Here is the text in this version of Slavonic:

Отче наш, иже еси на небесех, да святится имя Твое, да приидет Царствие Твое, да будет воля Твоя яко на небеси и на земли. Хлеб наш насущный даждь нам днесь, и остави нам долги наша, яко же и мы оставляем должником нашим, и не введи нас во искушение, но избави нас от лукаваго. Яко Твое есть Царствие, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святaго Духа, ныне, и присно, и во веки веков. Аминь.

Here is my translation into the modern vernacular Russian as I speak it (it is actually never used in the modern Russian Orthodox churches and I fail to comprehend why):

Отец наш, который на небесах, пусть святится имя Твое, пусть придет Царство Твое, пусть будет воля Твоя на земле так, как и на небе. Хлеб наш насущный дай нам сегодня, и прости нам вины наши, как и мы прощаем тем, кто виноват перед нами, и не допусти, чтобы мы искусились, но избавь нас от лукавого. Твои же и Царство, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святого Духа, ныне, и всегда, и во веки веков. Аминь.

Here is how it's said in modern Ukrainian Orthodox parishes, both in Ukraine and in diaspora:

Отче наш, що єси на небесах, нехай святиться ім'я Твоє, нехай прийде Царство Твоє, нехай буде воля Твоя як на небесах, так і на землі. Хліб наш насущний дай нам сьогодні, і прости нам провини наші, як і ми прощаємо винуватцям нашим, і не введи нас у спокусу, але визволи нас від лукавого. Бо Твоє є Царство, і сила, і слава, Отця, і Сина, і Святого Духа, нині, і повсякчас, і на віки віків. Амінь.

Thank you Heorhij! I prefer the Ukrainian to the Church Slavonic. It's much prettier. Like I said, maybe it's the sentimentalist in me, but the pronounciation of the Church Slavonic compared to the Ukrainian, ugh, I'd just rather do it in Ukrainian! lol

I used to attend an OCA parish that would sometimes break out the Church Slavonic for different things. The pronounciation is close enough, but still different enough that it would goof me up every time! Especially not being a fluent speaker, the subtleties of the different sounds would get lost on me.  Huh  Shocked

Grandma tried to teach me some Ukrainian when I was a girl, but all I walked away with was a song about a girl on a horse, a crow feeding her babies, and some simple phrases. The rest was learned listening to the hymns in Church.
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« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2009, 02:10:06 AM »

Quote
I think the reason young Greeks cannot even understand the written service books is because they use the higher form of Greek (Byzantine) which was based on the Attic version of Greek. From what I understand, Byzantine Greek is a very complicated form of Greek to understand even for scholars.

Quote
I'm rather sure it's Koiné Greek, New Testament Greek.  It is different than modern colloquial Greek.  However it isn't that different, ie, compare Chaucer English to modern English or Church Slavonic to modern Ukrainian or Russian.

From what I have been told it is very different and complex. It is no easy task to master Byzantine Greek. My good Greek-American friend speaks modern Greek and is quite fluent. He grew up in the Greek Orthodox church, singing in the choir. He can sing all of the hymns in Byzantine Greek and he also can recite many of the prayers but he hasn't a clue about their meaning. He now attends an OCA parish which uses English and has been rediscovering the meaning of many of the hymns and prayers of the Orthodox Church.

This same friend shared with me that Byzantine Greek is the official language spoken by Ecumenical Patriarch. Does anyone know if this is the language he speaks in when he comes to the United States to visit his flock?

Koine was only used for the writings of the scripture and the early writings of the church (Apostolic Fathers). But after that time period Byzantine Greek was the language used for Patristics, liturgics, and hymnography.


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/87308/Byzantine-Greek-language

Byzantine Greek
an archaic style of Greek that served as the language of administration and of most writing during the period of the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman, Empire until the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453. During the Byzantine period the spoken language continued to develop without the archaizing tendencies of the written language. Byzantine Greek is still the liturgical language of the Greek Orthodox church.

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« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2009, 03:54:56 AM »

This same friend shared with me that Byzantine Greek is the official language spoken by Ecumenical Patriarch. Does anyone know if this is the language he speaks in when he comes to the United States to visit his flock?

Yes.  I attended one of the Patriarchal Liturgies in NJ in 2004 and the Patriarch officiated in "Byzantine Greek" and spoke in Modern Greek 99.5% of the time.  An English translation of his homily was provided as a convenience.

I understand Byzantine Greek just fine.   Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2009, 09:30:53 AM »

From what I have been told it is very different and complex. It is no easy task to master Byzantine Greek. My good Greek-American friend speaks modern Greek and is quite fluent. He grew up in the Greek Orthodox church, singing in the choir. He can sing all of the hymns in Byzantine Greek and he also can recite many of the prayers but he hasn't a clue about their meaning. He now attends an OCA parish which uses English and has been rediscovering the meaning of many of the hymns and prayers of the Orthodox Church.

It does take some specialized education to get many of the words, but after studying Ancient, Koine, Patristic, and Modern Greek I can tell you that there are many words which haven't changed...

This same friend shared with me that Byzantine Greek is the official language spoken by Ecumenical Patriarch. Does anyone know if this is the language he speaks in when he comes to the United States to visit his flock?

Yikes.  No.  The Patriarch speaks "Katharevousa" when possible, which is a high-class Modern Greek.  When speaking about Liturgical concepts, or when quoting the Fathers, he uses the respective Greek languages that the references were written in.

Koine was only used for the writings of the scripture and the early writings of the church (Apostolic Fathers). But after that time period Byzantine Greek was the language used for Patristics, liturgics, and hymnography.

Eh, that's too simplistic an analysis of the progression; Koine was "Greek" for centuries.  "Byzantine" Greek (I clarify below) was an attempt by the upper-classes of Imperial Society, and Theologians alike, to bring the language back to Ancient Greek, reintroducing words and forms that had died beforehand.  But it wasn't necessarily "lingua franca" of its time - Koine was probably closer to it.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/87308/Byzantine-Greek-language

Byzantine Greek
an archaic style of Greek that served as the language of administration and of most writing during the period of the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman, Empire until the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453. During the Byzantine period the spoken language continued to develop without the archaizing tendencies of the written language. Byzantine Greek is still the liturgical language of the Greek Orthodox church.

We don't call it "Byzantine Greek;" many of us call it "Patristic Greek," while some others have less appropriate terms for it.
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« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2009, 12:43:55 PM »

this one is much closer to serbian....i like ...Отец наш, который на небесах, пусть святится имя Твое, пусть придет Царство Твое, пусть будет воля Твоя на земле так, как и на небе. Хлеб наш насущный дай нам сегодня, и прости нам вины наши, как и мы прощаем тем, кто виноват перед нами, и не допусти, чтобы мы искусились, но избавь нас от лукавого. Твои же и Царство, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святого Духа, ныне, и всегда, и во веки веков. Аминь..the other one is also readable and understandable...i like allso   both very nice ,,,,,,

Thank you, brother. That's simple modern Russian. Again, I really, really fail to understand why our Russian brothers and sisters do not use their real, live, beautiful modern vernacular Russian language in church. Let Mikhail Smirnov or Galina Volga or other Russians on this site correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that in a Russian church, only the sermon will be read in Russian; everything else is in the Old Church Slavonic, and, while it sometimes sounds kinda interesting and "cool," it's a DEAD language that no one speaks. I just can't imagine speaking and thinking one language and then going down on my knees before the Holy Icons and pray in a different language, and a dead one at that...
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« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2009, 01:56:44 PM »

Brother all the Our Father Prayers Are Beautiful the staro slovenski.As well the modern russian one and the ukrainian one..they all seem to be similar and understandable and readable ......ill try to post the serbian one as soon as i find it.....
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« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2009, 02:14:39 PM »

Here one in latinica.....Oce nas koji si na nebesima, da se sveti ime Tvoje, da dodje carstvo Tvoje, da bude volja Tvoja i na zemlji kao na nebu; hleb nas nasusni daj nam danas; i oprosti nam dugove nase kao sto i mi oprastamo duznicima svojim, i ne uvedi nas u iskusenje. nego izbavi nas od zla.Amin

Here's another in cirilica....Оче наш
Оче наш који си на небесима,
да се свти име Твоје,
да доће царство Твоје,
да буде воља Твоја, како на небу, тако и на земљи.
Хлеб наш насушни дај нам данас;
И опрости нам дугове наше
као што смо и ми опростили дужницима својим.
И не уведи нас у искушење,
него нас избави од Злога. 
Амин

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« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2009, 06:14:45 PM »

From what I have been told it is very different and complex. It is no easy task to master Byzantine Greek. My good Greek-American friend speaks modern Greek and is quite fluent. He grew up in the Greek Orthodox church, singing in the choir. He can sing all of the hymns in Byzantine Greek and he also can recite many of the prayers but he hasn't a clue about their meaning. He now attends an OCA parish which uses English and has been rediscovering the meaning of many of the hymns and prayers of the Orthodox Church.

It does take some specialized education to get many of the words, but after studying Ancient, Koine, Patristic, and Modern Greek I can tell you that there are many words which haven't changed...

This same friend shared with me that Byzantine Greek is the official language spoken by Ecumenical Patriarch. Does anyone know if this is the language he speaks in when he comes to the United States to visit his flock?

Yikes.  No.  The Patriarch speaks "Katharevousa" when possible, which is a high-class Modern Greek.  When speaking about Liturgical concepts, or when quoting the Fathers, he uses the respective Greek languages that the references were written in.

Koine was only used for the writings of the scripture and the early writings of the church (Apostolic Fathers). But after that time period Byzantine Greek was the language used for Patristics, liturgics, and hymnography.

Eh, that's too simplistic an analysis of the progression; Koine was "Greek" for centuries.  "Byzantine" Greek (I clarify below) was an attempt by the upper-classes of Imperial Society, and Theologians alike, to bring the language back to Ancient Greek, reintroducing words and forms that had died beforehand.  But it wasn't necessarily "lingua franca" of its time - Koine was probably closer to it.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/87308/Byzantine-Greek-language

Byzantine Greek
an archaic style of Greek that served as the language of administration and of most writing during the period of the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman, Empire until the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453. During the Byzantine period the spoken language continued to develop without the archaizing tendencies of the written language. Byzantine Greek is still the liturgical language of the Greek Orthodox church.

We don't call it "Byzantine Greek;" many of us call it "Patristic Greek," while some others have less appropriate terms for it.

Thank you for answering my questions and for providing more information about the language usages of the Greek Orthodox Church Cleveland. So from what I have been told, the reason Koine Greek was developed was so that large populations of non-Greeks could learn the language in order to unite people who had been conquered by the Greeks. Koine is a much simpler form of the language than the more ancient forms of Greek. Are these thoughts correct?
But during the Eastern Roman Empire, the scholars and theologians wanted to return to a more ancient usage of the language so deep theological concepts could be described with more accuracy and because the language allowed for more beauty and poetics in the liturgics?

The fellow in my church who described Patristic Greek as complex was quite fluent in Hebrew and Koine but was trying to learn Patristic Greek on his own so that he could read the writings of the Fathers in the original language. He does not want to miss the nuances of the way a word is used. He is originally of Anglican background, like Fr. Pat Reardon, and my sense is, after meeting Fr. Pat last fall and then speaking to my fellow parishioner, these former Anglicans are very precise in their studies of the Bible and Patristics.
He gave me an example of how a word from a Greek Orthodox consecration service book had been translated from the Patristic Greek word for "tabernacle" to "abode" (modern English). It is too bad translations are not more accurate but I realize Greek is an ancient language which has many words to explain complex theological concepts. I just wish highly refined translations were more readily available to those of us who are interested. Maybe with a few more Anglican scholarly converts, this may happen in the future.   Smiley  A team of Greek scholars and English scholars might be the right combination to have more accurate and poetic translations.
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« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2009, 06:56:21 PM »

So from what I have been told, the reason Koine Greek was developed was so that large populations of non-Greeks could learn the language in order to unite people who had been conquered by the Greeks. Koine is a much simpler form of the language than the more ancient forms of Greek. Are these thoughts correct?

It may have been a thoughtful simplification of the language to make it more easily learned, but it probably was instead a steady simplification of Greek as more and more people learned the language, just as languages such as English have in many ways simplified forms as they have been disseminated in wider spheres of population.

But during the Eastern Roman Empire, the scholars and theologians wanted to return to a more ancient usage of the language so deep theological concepts could be described with more accuracy and because the language allowed for more beauty and poetics in the liturgics?

From what I've read, yes.

The fellow in my church who described Patristic Greek as complex was quite fluent in Hebrew and Koine but was trying to learn Patristic Greek on his own so that he could read the writings of the Fathers in the original language. He does not want to miss the nuances of the way a word is used. He is originally of Anglican background, like Fr. Pat Reardon, and my sense is, after meeting Fr. Pat last fall and then speaking to my fellow parishioner, these former Anglicans are very precise in their studies of the Bible and Patristics.

He gave me an example of how a word from a Greek Orthodox consecration service book had been translated from the Patristic Greek word for "tabernacle" to "abode" (modern English). It is too bad translations are not more accurate but I realize Greek is an ancient language which has many words to explain complex theological concepts. I just wish highly refined translations were more readily available to those of us who are interested. Maybe with a few more Anglican scholarly converts, this may happen in the future.   Smiley  A team of Greek scholars and English scholars might be the right combination to have more accurate and poetic translations. 

I think you're right - getting together a diverse group of scholars and theologian-scholars would do the trick; one person attempting the translation of hundreds of hymns, texts, treatises and the like is a bit ridiculous.
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« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2009, 07:02:56 PM »

Brother all the Our Father Prayers Are Beautiful the staro slovenski.As well the modern russian one and the ukrainian one..they all seem to be similar and understandable and readable ......ill try to post the serbian one as soon as i find it.....

I know, brate, I am not arguing that the Old Church Slavonic sounds beautiful. I am just puzzled, why do Russians reject the Russian language in church. It is as beautiful as any other language. It is just strange to me, how can a modern (and quite beautiful, and widely used) language be considered "improper" for use in liturgy.
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« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2009, 07:18:45 PM »


Brother...
Father Miroslav told me once that there was no Bad word's in it ..it was specially set aside For the worship of God plus it was a related language to all the Slavic tongues easy to learn by attending regularly....
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« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2009, 11:15:18 PM »

Thank you, brother. That's simple modern Russian. Again, I really, really fail to understand why our Russian brothers and sisters do not use their real, live, beautiful modern vernacular Russian language in church. Let Mikhail Smirnov or Galina Volga or other Russians on this site correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that in a Russian church, only the sermon will be read in Russian; everything else is in the Old Church Slavonic, and, while it sometimes sounds kinda interesting and "cool," it's a DEAD language that no one speaks. I just can't imagine speaking and thinking one language and then going down on my knees before the Holy Icons and pray in a different language, and a dead one at that...

I completely agree with your observation and conclusion, Heorhij.

Modern vernacular Russian is used in a couple of parishes in Moscow. St. Nicholas Cathedral (OCA) in Washington, DC has (2) Sunday Liturgies. The earlier one is celebrated in English. The later one mostly has Old Slavonic, but practices reading in of Epistle and Gospel in Russian. Some other prayers also may be said / sang in Russian. As far as I understand, different prayers were said in Russian on different Sundays.

Also, some parishes of Sourozh Diocese in UK, which are now a part of the Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe (EP) also use vernacular Russian. Unfortunately, I don't know how many parishes and what are the percentage and frequency of services in Russian.
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« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2009, 10:25:41 AM »

In my small Antiochian parish, our priest will usually pause to allow the repetition of the Lord's Prayer by others in their own language if they choose to do so. It happens only occasionally. We have heard Arabic and Chinese. Our Lord Have Mercys (when in groups of 3 or more) may also include Greek and Arabic. Whenever I have to do 40 LHMs, I actually find counting easier by switching languages and will occasionally include French as well.

I also appreciate the little bits of Greek and Arabic because the Greek reminds me of the timelessness of our faith, and the Arabic reminds me of the global extent of our faith.

Jim
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« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2009, 11:18:55 PM »

On today's Liturgy we had fragments (Paschal troparion and Gospel mainly) in: Church Slavonic, Belarusian, Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Greek, Latin, Romanian and Georgian (!). I guess it was Romanian because I couldn't understand a single world from the troparion and my father is sure that once it was sung in Georgian because he's been to Georgia two times and it sounded similar.

Babel tower Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2009, 10:24:20 AM »

At the Coptic Orthodox Church of the Four Living Creatures mission to Australians here in Queensland Abouna James prays almost entirely in English. We have some Coptic at times for those who love it and a little Greek as all the Churches do with a splattering of Arabic if Egyptians are present but we have also had liturgies entirely in English thanks to God.

By the way, why aren't Coptic and Geez on your list? Also, the language is called "Arabic" not "Arab" Wink
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« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2009, 10:28:44 AM »

At the Coptic Orthodox Church of the Four Living Creatures mission to Australians here in Queensland Abouna James prays almost entirely in English. We have some Coptic at times for those who love it and a little Greek as all the Churches do with a splattering of Arabic if Egyptians are present but we have also had liturgies entirely in English thanks to God.

By the way, why aren't Coptic and Geez on your list? Also, the language is called "Arabic" not "Arab" Wink

At the Antiochian parish I used to attend, Orthros and Vespers were 50-50 English and Arabic, Divine Liturgy 99% English (we sang the Trisagion in Arabic, and even called it Quduson, but that was it). In my current OCA parish, 100% English, except of course for the Paschal greetings and troparia (English, Arabic, Greek, Slavonic, Ukrainian, Romanian, and Swahili).

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« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2009, 11:00:20 AM »

Would love to hear some Swahili! Have you Kenyans in your Church?

We not infrequently say the Trisagion in Greek. Personally I often do so in my own prayers as I simply find it easier to pronounce in Greek than in English (as odd as that may seem to some).
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« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2009, 11:08:52 AM »

Would love to hear some Swahili! Have you Kenyans in your Church?

Yes. Kristu amefufuka! Kweli amefufuka! Lord have mercy is Bwana udumia (oo-doo-mee-ah)

We sang the troparion last night in Swahili, but since I had it in front of my face on the music stand, I regret that I did not memorize it. On top of the Ukrainian and Romanian, neither of which I had ever seen, it was too much to commit to memory.

المسيح قام من بين الأموات
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و وهب الحياة
للذين في القبور
Al-Masīh qām min baīni'l-amwāt
Wa wati’ al-mawt bi'l-mawt
Wa wahab al-hayāt
Lil-ladhīna fī'l-qubūr!




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« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2009, 11:27:51 AM »

You do well to write Arabic!

Liturgy must sound so tranquil and tender in Swahili.
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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2009, 12:37:05 PM »

By the way, why aren't Coptic and Geez on your list? Also, the language is called "Arabic" not "Arab" Wink

I do not much about Oriental Orthodox Churches and their languages and I set this poll mainly for EOs. I regret it now and I'd be grateful if mods added them to the list.

I used to thing that Arab is an adjective describing language.

Taking an advance I refreshed the topic: what language does ACROD use? Lemko-Rusyn, Ukrainian, Church-Slavonic, English?

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« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2009, 08:49:55 PM »

We use Greek, English, Arabic and Coptic in every mass.
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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2009, 08:54:59 PM »


Taking an advance I refreshed the topic: what language does ACROD use? Lemko-Rusyn, Ukrainian, Church-Slavonic, English?



ACROD uses English and Church Slavonic
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« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2009, 11:38:51 PM »

But I'm interested in one more thing: which jurisdiction use Spanish?


GOA and OCA have a couple of Spanish language missions each. A parish of UOC-USA in Dover, Florida uses a lot of Spanish together with English and Ukrainian. Also, some other parishes of GOA, OCA, AOA, and possibly ROCOR serve in Spanish together with other languages.
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« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2009, 10:35:28 PM »

My current parish, OCA, uses 100% English.

My former parish, also OCA, uses 100% English. However, they now have a Russian mission. Twice a month they'll do a separate liturgy for the Russian population, but I don't know if it's in Slavonic or in Russian.
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« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2009, 11:27:07 PM »

My current parish, OCA, uses 100% English.

My former parish, also OCA, uses 100% English. However, they now have a Russian mission. Twice a month they'll do a separate liturgy for the Russian population, but I don't know if it's in Slavonic or in Russian.

I would go out on a limb and reckon it is Church Slavonic perhaps with the homily preached in Russian.
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« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2009, 03:35:51 AM »


Taking an advance I refreshed the topic: what language does ACROD use? Lemko-Rusyn, Ukrainian, Church-Slavonic, English?



ACROD uses English and Church Slavonic

So little Slavonic that one has to pay really close attention to catch it (at least in our parish).
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« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2009, 12:13:42 AM »

My current parish, OCA, uses 100% English.

My former parish, also OCA, uses 100% English. However, they now have a Russian mission. Twice a month they'll do a separate liturgy for the Russian population, but I don't know if it's in Slavonic or in Russian.

I would go out on a limb and reckon it is Church Slavonic perhaps with the homily preached in Russian.

You're probably right.
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« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2009, 10:29:14 AM »

Liturgy in my parish is mostly English. Occasionally some Greeks join in the celebration, so our deacons intones the prayers in English and the Greek on the cantor's stand would reply in Greek (they have very beautiful voices by the way  Smiley ). The Epistle is read twice, first in Tagalog, then in Greek. Same also for the Gospel. The Homily is in Tagalog. Most hymns are sung in English, except when a Greek comes over to the cantor stand then everything goes Greek..
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« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2009, 02:40:27 PM »

I attend a parish in Bergamo, Italy. The main language is Church Slavonic, but the first time I attended in 2008 at Pascha they were celebrating in Italian, as they also do on the main feasts, but the answers such as "Gospodi pomiluj" are sung in Slavonic. The Creed is always in Church Slavonic too. The Our Father is sung twice, in Italian and in Church Slavonic on the great feasts. For this they use a non-traditional version of the Our Father - or better, a more literal translation then the one in use in the Roman Catholic Church, saying "Dacci oggi il nostro pane necessario" (lit. "Give us today our necessary bread") where the RCs use "Dacci oggi il nostro pane quotidiano" ("Give us today our daily bread").
Anyway, the priest sings the Gospel in Italian, while the Epistle is on occasion in Church Slavonic or in Italian.

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2009, 08:46:07 PM »

For the curious:

At one parish I know: almost 100% english.  Whether it's modern or not depends on where they get their translation from - the parish's jurisdiction uses modern English in its translation, but the parish uses HTM's menaion, some music from St. Anthony's (which also seems to use HTM's translation) and some from the Antiochians/Boston Byzantine Choir.  So Orthros and Vespers there mixes traditional and modern English. 

A few other places I've been to:

- at a local GOA parish, Orthros for Sunday plus Apodosis of the Dormition was mostly in Greek, with the Gospel in English (previously, I believe there was about 75% Greek/25% English at Orthros, including some of the Kathimsa, Expaostilaria, etc. from Saint Gregory Palamas Monastery's translation).   Divine Liturgy goes back and forth between Greek and English, mostly Greek.  The Akathist, as I recall, mixed English and Greek 50/50.  Holy Friday Orthros was also about 50/50.   

- the GOA parish in Honolulu uses mostly English.

- a GOA parish I went to in a certain part of the NE US made me feel that I was teleported back to Greece - even the homily was in Greek, without any English!!!  There were even a few young men at the kilros, and the four men up there split up Orthros and Divine Liturgy evenly.   

- Monastery of Saint Neilos of Calabria, Italo-Greek Catholic Church: some Italian, but the parts of Orthros that required prosomia were in Greek.  As I recall, Divine Liturgy mixed Italian and Greek.   [this is just outside Rome, and was founded by the Italo-Greek Saint Neilos around 1000AD.  He's commemorated in both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches]
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« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2009, 10:24:15 PM »

Finnish, with some Swedish and Russian (or is it Church Slavonic, how would I know?) added for spice.

Ask Russians. The language they really use when they talk to their wives, husbands, children, colleagues - that's Russian. The language they do not use but have a strange reverence to, because some 1300 years ago two Greeks made it up based on what they thought was the language of Southern Slavs whom they visited - that's Church Slavonic.Smiley))

And if you don't have any Russians in your parish who could answer - then why in the world is it not all Finnish? Smiley)))
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« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2009, 10:25:58 PM »

I attend a parish in Bergamo, Italy. The main language is Church Slavonic,

WHY?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??

In ITALY, for Pete's sake...
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« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2009, 10:27:04 PM »

So little Slavonic that one has to pay really close attention to catch it (at least in our parish).

Why keep it?
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« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2009, 01:48:39 PM »

Three languages are used at the synagogue I attend:

Torah, Prophets & Psalms chanted in Hebrew

Gospels & Epistles chanted in Aramaic (Eastern pronunciation of the Peshitta)

English for the rest.
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« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2009, 02:37:50 PM »

And if you don't have any Russians in your parish who could answer - then why in the world is it not all Finnish? Smiley)))

I don't know about Robert's parish but at least according to my limited experience services in Finland are normally entirely in Finnish. If the Church Slavonic is used that's because of immigrants and not because Finnish Church would like to to preserve Church Slavonic.
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« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2009, 02:43:15 PM »

I attend a parish in Bergamo, Italy. The main language is Church Slavonic,

WHY?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??

In ITALY, for Pete's sake...


Because it's a community founded BY Russian immigrants FOR Russian immigrants. And anyway, I love Church Slavonic, I find it harmonious in the tones used at the DL. As far as I know, 90% of the members of that congregation could be Russians. The remaining are the Reader (who is Italian), one of the priests of the community (who is Italian) and some of convertion as I (most of them are just husbands/wives of the Russian members).
In Italy the nearest community I know using Italian only belongs to the "Chiesa Ortodossa Italiana", which is not in communion with the four Patriarchates and with Moscow; also, they are some 3 hours by car away from me, in the city of Ravenna. Since I don't love schismatics, and it's useless to dedicate all weeks an entire day of travel to go to the DL, the choice of this Russian Church was automatical (and I consider this a true fortune).

In Christ,    Alex

PS: Do you maybe have some problems with traditional languages? Do you prefer the vernacular over the great languages of tradition (Greek, Slavonic and Latin)? As for me, I love the ancient languages better - but I'm a student in linguistics, which makes everything a little bit different ;-)
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« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2009, 10:37:22 AM »

Finnish, with some Swedish and Russian (or is it Church Slavonic, how would I know?) added for spice.

Ask Russians. The language they really use when they talk to their wives, husbands, children, colleagues - that's Russian. The language they do not use but have a strange reverence to, because some 1300 years ago two Greeks made it up based on what they thought was the language of Southern Slavs whom they visited - that's Church Slavonic.Smiley))

And if you don't have any Russians in your parish who could answer - then why in the world is it not all Finnish? Smiley)))


Some places in Finland they actually use Russian and not Slavonic. Especially in the south and the south east quite a high percentage of the church goers are nowadays Russian speakers. That's why Slavonic or Russian is used for parts of the service, and sometimes there are all-Slavonic or all-Russian services. In Helsinki, the Holy Trinity church has everything in Slavonic (ie no Finnish is normally used). The Holy Trinity church and some other parishes in large cities use Slavonic also because of tradition, not just because of immigrants, because many parishes in big cities in southern and western Finland used to be predominantly Russian, but most places in Finland, where the parishes have traditionally been Finnish speaking, Slavonic and Russian is used because or immigrants. Also Holy Trinity is nowadays mostly immigrants.
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« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2009, 11:31:46 AM »

At my Antiochian parish, we use about 98% English, with a few elements (some troparia, the Trisagion, etc) done in Arabic and English. During the special Holy Week services there is a lot more Arabic, closer to half and half.
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« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2009, 11:34:20 AM »

I attend a parish in Bergamo, Italy. The main language is Church Slavonic,

WHY?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??

In ITALY, for Pete's sake...


Because it's a community founded BY Russian immigrants FOR Russian immigrants. And anyway, I love Church Slavonic, I find it harmonious in the tones used at the DL. As far as I know, 90% of the members of that congregation could be Russians. The remaining are the Reader (who is Italian), one of the priests of the community (who is Italian) and some of convertion as I (most of them are just husbands/wives of the Russian members).
In Italy the nearest community I know using Italian only belongs to the "Chiesa Ortodossa Italiana", which is not in communion with the four Patriarchates and with Moscow; also, they are some 3 hours by car away from me, in the city of Ravenna. Since I don't love schismatics, and it's useless to dedicate all weeks an entire day of travel to go to the DL, the choice of this Russian Church was automatical (and I consider this a true fortune).

In Christ,    Alex

PS: Do you maybe have some problems with traditional languages? Do you prefer the vernacular over the great languages of tradition (Greek, Slavonic and Latin)? As for me, I love the ancient languages better - but I'm a student in linguistics, which makes everything a little bit different ;-)


It's a Ukrainian thing.

Ukrainians were wrongly banned from using their language, so there is overreaction to Church Slavonic, which Ukrainocentrics/Ukrainophiles see as a Russian thing, although the Russians adopted the recension developed in Ukraine (hence why ge is pronounced "ghe," no devoicing of final stops, no sluring of vowels, etc.).

The Ruthenians/Rusyns use their own recension, cutting off being Ukrainized, which of course draws the ire of Ukrainocentrists.

There are Ukrainians who prefer the Slavonic, even those who have submitted to the Vatican.
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« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2009, 11:35:02 AM »

At my Antiochian parish, we use about 98% English, with a few elements (some troparia, the Trisagion, etc) done in Arabic and English. During the special Holy Week services there is a lot more Arabic, closer to half and half.
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« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2009, 11:46:28 AM »

I attend a parish in Bergamo, Italy. The main language is Church Slavonic,

WHY?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??

In ITALY, for Pete's sake...


Perhaps because there are Russians, Ukrainians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Macedonians (and maybe a Croat or Pole or Czech or Slovak or two) and Church Slavonic is the neutral, common heritage.
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« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2009, 12:02:30 PM »

In my parish services are in Church Slavonic.
But once when we had a guest from OCA (a priest) it was partly in English... I live next to Tibeth, Afghanistan and Chinese border and it was extremely exotic here....
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« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2009, 02:36:09 PM »

In my parish, it's mostly in English, with some oft-repeated responses in Greek.  We also do "Lord have mercy" in the Memorial in a variety of languages (this also holds for the Litany of Fervent Supplication at Vespers.  And, come Pascha, we routinely do the greeting and response in  Greek, Arabic, Romanian, and Slavonic, as well as English.
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« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2009, 04:11:14 PM »

Here's how it was for the parishes I attended:

OCA
A mostly "Russian" church (the priest was also Russian) but was chanted mostly in English. The rest was in Church Slavonic (I guess? I can't tell the difference between it and Russian). The readings are all in English, the homily is spoken first in English, then in Russian. I think the priest just gives a summary of the day's hagiography for brevity's sake. The laity was half Slavic, half definitely-not-Slavic. I think there are even some Ethiopians there.

GOA
Mostly English. One thing I can specifically point out is that the litanies are chanted in English and responded in Greek. A lot of the hymns are Greek. The Creed and the Our Father are recited in English first, then Greek while the Gospel is chanted first in Greek and then in English. The homily is completely in English. Since I taught myself a bit of koine Greek I thought following the Greek portion of the Divine Liturgy handbook would be easy, but the pronunciation they use is completely different from what I'm  used to. I was surprised by the lack of a "beginning h" sound (agios vs. hagios), the pronunciation of "eta" as a "short i" and "ypsilon" vs. "upsilon." Also all the diphthongs are different (kay vs. kye).

Antiochian
100% English. Arabs are actually a minority in this parish. And *gasp* a priest who shaves!

There are more churches where I live, including a ROCOR parish that is 100% Slavonic, an OCA parish that uses English, Greek and Spanish, another Antiochian parish that uses some Arabic, and a Serbian parish. Don't know the language of that last one.
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« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2009, 08:17:30 PM »

Wow, I am really impressed at the diversity of languages used during liturgy represented here by our forum community! Glory be to God!  Smiley
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« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2009, 10:26:48 PM »

Latin
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« Reply #86 on: May 20, 2010, 07:05:49 AM »

In my parish in Warsaw there is everything in Ukrainian... (Liturgy, sermon etc) it's pretty hard for me becouse I don't know Ukrainian hehe
Here in Bulgaria in Sofia the Servis is in Church Slavonic but in Burgas is in Bulgarian. It was funny in Belgrade becouse  in spite of Liturgy was in Church Slavonic sermon was preached in three languages - Rusyn, Ukrainian and Serbian. (All of these cases are from Bizantyne Catholic churches).
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« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2010, 03:44:49 PM »

I wonder how much logistics and inertia influence the use of a particular language. By logistics I mean the existence of service books, including musical notations, say in Church Slavonic, not-modern-Arabic, or not-modern-Greek . These books are available everywhere but their counterparts in the vernacular are rare, incomplete and not always available with musical notations. "Inertia" could include a large number of chanters/readers who are trained in the older language, a large number of congregants who are used to hearing the chants/hymns in the old language, and the general human tendency to resist change.
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