Poll

Which is used?

English
70 (39.3%)
Greek
32 (18%)
Church Slavonic
22 (12.4%)
Ukrainian
9 (5.1%)
Serbian
6 (3.4%)
Bulgarian
1 (0.6%)
Romanian
6 (3.4%)
Russian
3 (1.7%)
Arab
10 (5.6%)
Rusyn/Lemko
0 (0%)
Latin
2 (1.1%)
Spanish
1 (0.6%)
Albanian
0 (0%)
Other
16 (9%)

Total Members Voted: 96

Author Topic: Liturgical languages in your Churches  (Read 16819 times)

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Offline mike

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Liturgical languages in your Churches
« on: February 08, 2009, 04:18:49 PM »
Just of curiosity. I'm interested in how it goes in your parishes. Or maybe you have some mixed services or several in different languages. Please write your experiences with it.

You can choose 3 options because you can also your former parishes. If I had missed any important language please, Mods, add it.

In my parish Church services is in Church Slavonic. Sermon is partly in Russian Partly in Polish. I've also attended services in Bulgarian, Belarusian and Greek.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 04:19:28 PM by mike »

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2009, 04:29:09 PM »
My current parish uses a mixture of Greek and English. I'd say the majority of it is done in English, with some Greek thrown in. Or at least enough English is done that I can follow along the Greek parts in English in the pew book provided. The sermon is said entirely in English, the Creed is done entirely in English, and the Lord's prayer is said first in Greek, then in English. The Gospel and the Epistle are said in Greek and in English.

The parish I grew up in was a Ukrainian/English mix. Similar mix as to what I go to now.

I've also attended services at an Antiochian parish in NJ that mixed Arabic and English, Ukrainian parishes where it was entirely in Ukrainian, and a Greek parish where it was entirely in Greek.

I know this is random, but I'd love to hear the Liturgy in French. I studied French for six years, and it's such a beautiful language that I think the Liturgy would just sound wonderful in French.
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline wynd

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2009, 07:49:21 PM »
I've been to two parishes, both OCA and both >99% English. Each had a reader that liked to throw in some Kyrie Eleison's/Gospodi Pomiluj's/Yara Burham's now and then during the Hours, but that's it.

Offline stashko

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2009, 08:35:52 PM »
Staro Slovenska liturgija,,,Serbian [prepovadanje]sermon and in some serbian churches  english liturgy followed by old slovanik liturgy............
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 08:41:05 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline FrChris

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2009, 08:39:39 PM »
My Sunday Liturgy is primarily English, with some Greek. In Orthros on Sundays we use those languages and a smattering of Arabic, French, or German.

My weekday Liturgies are primarily Greek with a smattering of English, depending on the crowd that day.
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Offline Robert W

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2009, 08:40:32 PM »
Finnish, with some Swedish and Russian (or is it Church Slavonic, how would I know?) added for spice.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 08:41:31 PM by Robert W »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 10:51:28 PM »
Classical Armenian

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 11:08:00 PM »
The Gospel reading, Creed and the Lord's Prayer are repeated in English. Everything else is all Greek.

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 11:29:20 PM »
My Sunday Liturgy is primarily English, with some Greek. In Orthros on Sundays we use those languages and a smattering of Arabic, French, or German.

My weekday Liturgies are primarily Greek with a smattering of English, depending on the crowd that day.

Interesting as that reflects my parish as well (both in usage and congregation - minus Arabic, French and German).  Sunday Orthros is nearly 100% English these days and is mostly attended by people who prefer English.  OTOH, weekday liturgies (especially days like Saturday of the Souls) are mostly Greek. 

Offline FrChris

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 11:45:23 PM »
My Sunday Liturgy is primarily English, with some Greek. In Orthros on Sundays we use those languages and a smattering of Arabic, French, or German.

My weekday Liturgies are primarily Greek with a smattering of English, depending on the crowd that day.

Interesting as that reflects my parish as well (both in usage and congregation - minus Arabic, French and German).  Sunday Orthros is nearly 100% English these days and is mostly attended by people who prefer English.  OTOH, weekday liturgies (especially days like Saturday of the Souls) are mostly Greek. 

This seems to be the right 'balance' in the GOA parishes I have served in outside of New England (while in New England I was assigned to several Capital G Greek parishes to work on my language skills, etc).

What's interesting is that one of my chanters is from Lebanon, so he chants in Arabic and French. We have several Arabic families attend my parish because the local Antiochian parish has had its own demographics shift away from a Mediterranean culture, and so to be surrounded in a culture that they feel comfortable in those particular families come to my parish.

C'est la vie!
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 07:00:31 AM »
^ I guess we need to add French to the list. ;)

In my parish, only English is spoken. Every so often we have a non-English-speaker who asks for some things to be added in their language. Bishop Job feels that such a move would be a step backwards, and insists that a parish which can serve Liturgy in the native tongue of the area only change languages if that area's demographics change sufficiently (e.g. English speakers move out and Spanish speakers move in), and even then only as oikonomia. The parish should attempt to return to English as quickly as is appropriate for the parishioners.

That said, we sing the Lord have mercies at Pascha and Pentecost in as many languages as we have represented, because the Resurrection of Christ is the resurrection of all, and because at Pentecost Babel was undone.
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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 03:17:46 PM »
Finnish, with some Swedish and Russian (or is it Church Slavonic, how would I know?) added for spice.

Occasionally at Uspensky Cathedral in Helsinki, and rarely at Holy Trinity Church in the same city, some prayers are said in English for the benefit of any foreigners who might be present.

Offline Schultz

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 03:32:13 PM »
Divine Liturgy is almost always exclusively in English, although Father will occasionally toss in some Slavonic here and there.

When we have panakhidas afterwards, sometimes it's in Slavonic and sometimes it's in English.  I think it depends on whether or not the person being prayed for grew up/had an affinity for Slavonic, but I can't be sure.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 03:43:03 PM by Schultz »
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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 03:39:32 PM »
While I may have select English, Greek and Slavonic, it really is over 90% English with some Slavonic and occasional greek thrown in (Greek usually just a litany or two and occasional prayer, same with Slavonic, but a little more and the choir sometimes sings the Trisagion, Cherubic Hymn, It is truly Meet and Receive the Body of Christ in Slavonic).

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 05:02:29 PM »

Ok, here goes....

Ukrainian Parish (of USA) - my parish - mostly Ukrainian, with some English (depends on the makeup of the faithful that day.  If the priest sees unfamiliar faces, there's more English)
Romanian parish I visited - 100% Romanian - didn't understand a single word.
Antiochian parish I visited - mix of Arabic and English.  Gospel read in both.
Greek - mix of Greek and English
Serbian - mix of Serbian, English and Church Slavonic.  Most hymns were in Church slavonic, not English or Serbian.
Russian - 100% Russian
OCA - 100% English
Coptic - 100% something.  Didn't understand it.  I don't know what language it was and don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by guessing wrongly.
Bulgarian - they had a mix.  English and Bulgarian.
Malenkarian - don't know...never made it past the Narthex.

Wow....I am truly blessed to have such a variety - all within 20 miles of my home.

Of course....without a doublt...I prefer hearing the Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian (with some English thrown in for good measure!)
 ;)
 


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Offline monkvasyl

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 05:11:55 PM »
St. Andrew's uses a mixture of both English and Ukrainian.  The readings are in both languages and the sermons are generally in both languages.  Some exclamations by the clergy are done twice, in both languages.  Father will at times do Baptisms and Marriages in church Slavonic and Russian, it depends on the people requesting the service.
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2009, 05:15:00 PM »
Vast majority in Church Slavonic, with a wee bit of Russian.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2009, 06:10:02 PM »
My parish only uses English and Greek (with the exception of Pascha and the Agape Vespers).

I do know of a Greek Church in Charlotte (not the Cathedral) that has been known to use Arabic and a Slavic language (I don't remember which one) in addition to Greek and English because of a few families there.
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2009, 06:36:16 PM »
English is used almost %100 although sometimes Father will do a litany and other things in Greek and Arabic.

Offline Heorhij

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2009, 07:02:47 PM »
Just of curiosity. I'm interested in how it goes in your parishes. Or maybe you have some mixed services or several in different languages. Please write your experiences with it.

You can choose 3 options because you can also your former parishes. If I had missed any important language please, Mods, add it.

In my parish Church services is in Church Slavonic. Sermon is partly in Russian Partly in Polish. I've also attended services in Bulgarian, Belarusian and Greek.

Father Chris has already told about languages in his parish (which is also my parish :) ).

In other parishes I visited:

Milan Synod parish in Starkville, Mississippi (2007): everything in English, except the priest occasionally said "Kirie eleison, Khriste eleison" (Greek).

UOC-USA in Seattle, in the 1990-s: almost everything in modern vernacular Ukrainian; the priest sometimes read the Gospel in Ukrainian and then the same passage in English; the reader usually read Psalm 145(146) ("Do not put your trust in princes...") in Ukrainian and then in English. All liturgical exclamations were in Ukrainian, always.

UOC (KP) in Kyiv, summer 2008 (four different parishes): everything in modern vernacular Ukrainian.

UAOC (St. Andrew parish in Kyiv), summer 2008: everything in modern vernacular Ukrainian.

Childhood reminiscences about how it used to be in Kyiv churches when it was all "USSR" and there was no such thing as UOC: everything in Old Church Slavonic, and I did not understand a word. :(
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 07:04:26 PM by Heorhij »
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Offline Tamara

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2009, 01:55:26 AM »
My parish uses 100% English (Antiochian)
The other Antiochian parish I attend uses English 90%: Classical Arabic* 10%: and during feast days or when the bishop visits Greek 5%.

A few weeks ago, when discussing liturgical languages with one of the scholars in our parish, I was fascinated when I found out that in Greek Orthodox parishes there are three different dialects of Greek used.

From what I understand, Byzantine Greek is used for all the prayers and hymns. My fellow parishioner explained that the highly educated Church Fathers (ie: St. Gregory the Theologian) made a concerted effort to return to the use of a higher form of Greek used in earlier time periods (Attic Greek). He explained that the reason for this return was the older forms of Greek allowed for more flexibility, beauty and poetics for writing the prayers and hymns used in the services than the more everyday Koine Greek used to write the New Testament. He then went on to explain that the only time Koine Greek is heard during the Divine Liturgy is during the readings of the Epistle and Gospel (Koine was only used for a short time in the early church history). Finally, he shared with me that any readings from the Septuagint are read in a strange form of Greek that is actually a  literal translation from the Hebrew and because of this literal aspect sounds very strange to those who study Greek. But for many years it was regarded as holy translation from God because it sounded so different. It wasn't until recently, scholars learned this unusual form of Greek was used for a time in Egypt in regular written transactions and records.

*Classical Arabic is not the colloquial Arabic used for everyday conversation. For this reason I believe many Arab immigrants have a hard time understanding the Divine Liturgy in Arabic unless they have a written service book to follow because Classical Arabic is used in written form and understood when read by all Arabs. I wonder if it is similar to our situation when we hear old English like Chaucer? We can decipher the meaning if we read it but when we hear it almost sounds like a foreign language.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 02:01:56 AM by Tamara »

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2009, 02:01:41 AM »
For those who selected "Church Slavonic" I wonder how many people's church use more than a triple litany "Gospodi Pomiluj" and actually sing a decent amount of the liturgy in Church Slavonic? 

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2009, 02:19:36 AM »
For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68
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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2009, 09:35:41 AM »
For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68

I agree.

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Offline mike

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2009, 11:09:31 AM »
For those who chose English: is it modern version of language you use everyday or is it more sophisticated or older?

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2009, 12:47:44 PM »
For those who chose English: is it modern version of language you use everyday or is it more sophisticated or older?
Well, it's modern English that is appropriate for Liturgy. Certainly it is not colloquial English, but it is totally modern...usually. We do have some readers and hymns who will say "Thou" in reference to God, but mostly we use "You" even to refer to God. I don't believe there's any disrespect in doing so, especially since "thou" was originally a colloquial word and "you" was its formal counterpart (similar to "tu" and "vous" in French).
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2009, 12:50:53 PM »
For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68

The below version is actually in Old Church Slavonic. In the modern vernacular Russian, the words would be different (e.g., "прийдет" "настанет" instead of "приидет"; "как" isntead of "яко же"; "небесах" instead of "небесех", etc.

Abot the Ukrainian text of the Lord's Prayer - oh yes, I can't agree more.  ;)
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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2009, 12:53:49 PM »
My parish uses 100% English (Antiochian)

Tamara, may I ask, why? And don't you miss Arabic?

It strikes me that in my Greek parish, the younger generation of ethnic Greeks does not know any Greek, and some even say that they cannot read the Greek words of the Divine Liturgy in our church book, let alone understand them.

In the Ukrainian diaspora, that extreme kind of Americanization would be an ultimate shame to the parents... :(
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Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2009, 01:13:36 PM »
For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68

The below version is actually in Old Church Slavonic. In the modern vernacular Russian, the words would be different (e.g., "прийдет" "настанет" instead of "приидет"; "как" isntead of "яко же"; "небесах" instead of "небесех", etc.

Abot the Ukrainian text of the Lord's Prayer - oh yes, I can't agree more.  ;)

I apologize, I was going by the description on Youtube. As someone who doesn't speak any of the above, I'll have to take your word for it. ;)

(I've studied Ukrainian only a teeny tiny bit and only know enough to get me through Liturgy. ;D )
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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2009, 01:47:06 PM »
For those who chose English: is it modern version of language you use everyday or is it more sophisticated or older?
Well, it's modern English that is appropriate for Liturgy. Certainly it is not colloquial English, but it is totally modern...usually. We do have some readers and hymns who will say "Thou" in reference to God, but mostly we use "You" even to refer to God. I don't believe there's any disrespect in doing so, especially since "thou" was originally a colloquial word and "you" was its formal counterpart (similar to "tu" and "vous" in French).

mike,

This is NOT uniform in the OCA.  "Y"'s parish is in Missouri and mine is in the California Wine country.  From what I've discussed with several clergy, the west coast is much more traditional in general across all jurisdictions (when looking at things from a language, praxis, church layout point of view).  I find it rather ironic since some people on the east coast nickname the west coast the "left" coast due to things politically, even though Orthodox-wise it is the not the case.  In my OCA parish, we use all "thee's" and "thou's" and generally use more traditional translations (e.g. Met. Kallistos/Mother Mary, Holy Transfiguration, Holy Trinity in Jordanville, etc.).

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2009, 03:33:21 PM »
For those who chose English: is it modern version of language you use everyday or is it more sophisticated or older?
Well, it's modern English that is appropriate for Liturgy. Certainly it is not colloquial English, but it is totally modern...usually. We do have some readers and hymns who will say "Thou" in reference to God, but mostly we use "You" even to refer to God. I don't believe there's any disrespect in doing so, especially since "thou" was originally a colloquial word and "you" was its formal counterpart (similar to "tu" and "vous" in French).

mike,

This is NOT uniform in the OCA.  "Y"'s parish is in Missouri and mine is in the California Wine country.  From what I've discussed with several clergy, the west coast is much more traditional in general across all jurisdictions (when looking at things from a language, praxis, church layout point of view).  I find it rather ironic since some people on the east coast nickname the west coast the "left" coast due to things politically, even though Orthodox-wise it is the not the case.  In my OCA parish, we use all "thee's" and "thou's" and generally use more traditional translations (e.g. Met. Kallistos/Mother Mary, Holy Transfiguration, Holy Trinity in Jordanville, etc.).

The OCA parish I used to attend in NJ also used the "thee's and thou's." As our Deacon's wife said, "We are not a "You-hoo" parish.  :laugh:

But to Mike's point, aside from the "thee's" and "thou's" it's all modern English that is understandable. It's not written in Shakespeare form or anything where we wouldn't be able to understand it. So "Liturgical English" (if there is such a thing) is not like "Church Slavonic" where it's an entirely different language that people have to study to understand. It's just a "prettier" way of saying things.  :)
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Offline mike

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2009, 03:38:08 PM »
Thanks four you explanations, I got to know many new things. But I'm interested in one more thing: which jurisdiction use Spanish?

Sorry for my constant questions but there is an incredible amount of things that are completely new to me.

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2009, 06:53:08 PM »
My parish uses 100% English (Antiochian)

Tamara, may I ask, why? And don't you miss Arabic?

It strikes me that in my Greek parish, the younger generation of ethnic Greeks does not know any Greek, and some even say that they cannot read the Greek words of the Divine Liturgy in our church book, let alone understand them.

In the Ukrainian diaspora, that extreme kind of Americanization would be an ultimate shame to the parents... :(

Hi Heorhij,

The Antiochian parish I attend now is full of converts. We only have a few folks in our parish who are of Arab descent so it would make sense the Divine Liturgy would be completely in English. I have found attending Orthros or Vespers to be an intensive catechism lesson since we became members of this parish. In the parish I grew up in all of these services were in Arabic (100%). It has been very enlightening to attend services at this new parish. But I do miss hearing Byzantine chant. For those times, I pull out my CDs of Byzantine chant from Antioch or attend the other parish so I can hear it again. I feel lucky to have the option of hearing everything in English but I am also grateful to attend a parish that has chanters who learned their art in Damascus. I guess what I am saying is, I love both.  :)

I think the reason young Greeks cannot even understand the written service books is because they use the higher form of Greek (Byzantine) which was based on the Attic version of Greek. From what I understand, Byzantine Greek is a very complicated form of Greek to understand even for scholars.

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2009, 07:00:04 PM »
My parish uses 100% English (Antiochian)

Tamara, may I ask, why? And don't you miss Arabic?

It strikes me that in my Greek parish, the younger generation of ethnic Greeks does not know any Greek, and some even say that they cannot read the Greek words of the Divine Liturgy in our church book, let alone understand them.

In the Ukrainian diaspora, that extreme kind of Americanization would be an ultimate shame to the parents... :(

Hi Heorhij,

The Antiochian parish I attend now is full of converts. We only have a few folks in our parish who are of Arab descent so it would make sense the Divine Liturgy would be completely in English. I have found attending Orthros or Vespers to be an intensive catechism lesson since we became members of this parish. In the parish I grew up in all of these services were in Arabic (100%). It has been very enlightening to attend services at this new parish. But I do miss hearing Byzantine chant. For those times, I pull out my CDs of Byzantine chant from Antioch or attend the other parish so I can hear it again. I feel lucky to have the option of hearing everything in English but I am also grateful to attend a parish that has chanters who learned their art in Damascus. I guess what I am saying is, I love both.  :)

I think the reason young Greeks cannot even understand the written service books is because they use the higher form of Greek (Byzantine) which was based on the Attic version of Greek. From what I understand, Byzantine Greek is a very complicated form of Greek to understand even for scholars.

I'm rather sure it's Koiné Greek, New Testament Greek.  It is different than modern colloquial Greek.  However it isn't that different, ie, compare Chaucer English to modern English or Church Slavonic to modern Ukrainian or Russian.

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2009, 07:16:09 PM »
I'm rather sure it's Koiné Greek, New Testament Greek.  It is different than modern colloquial Greek.  However it isn't that different, ie, compare Chaucer English to modern English or Church Slavonic to modern Ukrainian or Russian.

Only the New Testament readings are Koiné.

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2009, 07:34:39 PM »
I'm rather sure it's Koiné Greek, New Testament Greek.  It is different than modern colloquial Greek.  However it isn't that different, ie, compare Chaucer English to modern English or Church Slavonic to modern Ukrainian or Russian.

I see that comparison made a lot and if true means modern Greek speakers would have a very spotty understanding of Koine.

From the Knight's Tale:

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Of fustian he wered a gypon
Al bismotered with his habergeon,
For he was late ycome from his viage,
And wente for to doon his pilgrymage.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2009, 08:03:57 PM »
For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68

The below version is actually in Old Church Slavonic. In the modern vernacular Russian, the words would be different (e.g., "прийдет" "настанет" instead of "приидет"; "как" isntead of "яко же"; "небесах" instead of "небесех", etc.

Abot the Ukrainian text of the Lord's Prayer - oh yes, I can't agree more.  ;)

I apologize, I was going by the description on Youtube. As someone who doesn't speak any of the above, I'll have to take your word for it. ;)

(I've studied Ukrainian only a teeny tiny bit and only know enough to get me through Liturgy. ;D )

No need to apologize. I guess it's a form of Slavonic that is not all that far from modern Russian.

Here is the text in this version of Slavonic:

Отче наш, иже еси на небесех, да святится имя Твое, да приидет Царствие Твое, да будет воля Твоя яко на небеси и на земли. Хлеб наш насущный даждь нам днесь, и остави нам долги наша, яко же и мы оставляем должником нашим, и не введи нас во искушение, но избави нас от лукаваго. Яко Твое есть Царствие, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святaго Духа, ныне, и присно, и во веки веков. Аминь.

Here is my translation into the modern vernacular Russian as I speak it (it is actually never used in the modern Russian Orthodox churches and I fail to comprehend why):

Отец наш, который на небесах, пусть святится имя Твое, пусть придет Царство Твое, пусть будет воля Твоя на земле так, как и на небе. Хлеб наш насущный дай нам сегодня, и прости нам вины наши, как и мы прощаем тем, кто виноват перед нами, и не допусти, чтобы мы искусились, но избавь нас от лукавого. Твои же и Царство, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святого Духа, ныне, и всегда, и во веки веков. Аминь.

Here is how it's said in modern Ukrainian Orthodox parishes, both in Ukraine and in diaspora:

Отче наш, що єси на небесах, нехай святиться ім'я Твоє, нехай прийде Царство Твоє, нехай буде воля Твоя як на небесах, так і на землі. Хліб наш насущний дай нам сьогодні, і прости нам провини наші, як і ми прощаємо винуватцям нашим, і не введи нас у спокусу, але визволи нас від лукавого. Бо Твоє є Царство, і сила, і слава, Отця, і Сина, і Святого Духа, нині, і повсякчас, і на віки віків. Амінь.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 08:17:37 PM by Heorhij »
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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2009, 08:54:28 PM »
this one is much closer to serbian....i like ...Отец наш, который на небесах, пусть святится имя Твое, пусть придет Царство Твое, пусть будет воля Твоя на земле так, как и на небе. Хлеб наш насущный дай нам сегодня, и прости нам вины наши, как и мы прощаем тем, кто виноват перед нами, и не допусти, чтобы мы искусились, но избавь нас от лукавого. Твои же и Царство, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святого Духа, ныне, и всегда, и во веки веков. Аминь..the other one is also readable and understandable...i like allso   both very nice ,,,,,,
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 09:01:15 PM by stashko »
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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2009, 09:38:44 PM »
Thanks four you explanations, I got to know many new things. But I'm interested in one more thing: which jurisdiction use Spanish?

Sorry for my constant questions but there is an incredible amount of things that are completely new to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ8KI2Ik0QA :)

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2009, 11:36:36 PM »
St. Andrew Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Boston - UOC-USA.
Approximately 55% of modern vernacular English and 45% of modern vernacular Ukrainian.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 11:37:03 PM by Starlight »

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2009, 01:14:42 AM »
For me (and this just may be the sentimentalist in me) nothing sounds as beautiful as the Lord's Prayer in Ukrainian.

Although the below version is in Russian, this is the arrangement we use in the UOC parish I grew up in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGDLGkeeS68

The below version is actually in Old Church Slavonic. In the modern vernacular Russian, the words would be different (e.g., "прийдет" "настанет" instead of "приидет"; "как" isntead of "яко же"; "небесах" instead of "небесех", etc.

Abot the Ukrainian text of the Lord's Prayer - oh yes, I can't agree more.  ;)

I apologize, I was going by the description on Youtube. As someone who doesn't speak any of the above, I'll have to take your word for it. ;)

(I've studied Ukrainian only a teeny tiny bit and only know enough to get me through Liturgy. ;D )

No need to apologize. I guess it's a form of Slavonic that is not all that far from modern Russian.

Here is the text in this version of Slavonic:

Отче наш, иже еси на небесех, да святится имя Твое, да приидет Царствие Твое, да будет воля Твоя яко на небеси и на земли. Хлеб наш насущный даждь нам днесь, и остави нам долги наша, яко же и мы оставляем должником нашим, и не введи нас во искушение, но избави нас от лукаваго. Яко Твое есть Царствие, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святaго Духа, ныне, и присно, и во веки веков. Аминь.

Here is my translation into the modern vernacular Russian as I speak it (it is actually never used in the modern Russian Orthodox churches and I fail to comprehend why):

Отец наш, который на небесах, пусть святится имя Твое, пусть придет Царство Твое, пусть будет воля Твоя на земле так, как и на небе. Хлеб наш насущный дай нам сегодня, и прости нам вины наши, как и мы прощаем тем, кто виноват перед нами, и не допусти, чтобы мы искусились, но избавь нас от лукавого. Твои же и Царство, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святого Духа, ныне, и всегда, и во веки веков. Аминь.

Here is how it's said in modern Ukrainian Orthodox parishes, both in Ukraine and in diaspora:

Отче наш, що єси на небесах, нехай святиться ім'я Твоє, нехай прийде Царство Твоє, нехай буде воля Твоя як на небесах, так і на землі. Хліб наш насущний дай нам сьогодні, і прости нам провини наші, як і ми прощаємо винуватцям нашим, і не введи нас у спокусу, але визволи нас від лукавого. Бо Твоє є Царство, і сила, і слава, Отця, і Сина, і Святого Духа, нині, і повсякчас, і на віки віків. Амінь.

Thank you Heorhij! I prefer the Ukrainian to the Church Slavonic. It's much prettier. Like I said, maybe it's the sentimentalist in me, but the pronounciation of the Church Slavonic compared to the Ukrainian, ugh, I'd just rather do it in Ukrainian! lol

I used to attend an OCA parish that would sometimes break out the Church Slavonic for different things. The pronounciation is close enough, but still different enough that it would goof me up every time! Especially not being a fluent speaker, the subtleties of the different sounds would get lost on me.  ???  :o

Grandma tried to teach me some Ukrainian when I was a girl, but all I walked away with was a song about a girl on a horse, a crow feeding her babies, and some simple phrases. The rest was learned listening to the hymns in Church.
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Offline Tamara

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2009, 02:10:06 AM »
Quote
I think the reason young Greeks cannot even understand the written service books is because they use the higher form of Greek (Byzantine) which was based on the Attic version of Greek. From what I understand, Byzantine Greek is a very complicated form of Greek to understand even for scholars.

Quote
I'm rather sure it's Koiné Greek, New Testament Greek.  It is different than modern colloquial Greek.  However it isn't that different, ie, compare Chaucer English to modern English or Church Slavonic to modern Ukrainian or Russian.

From what I have been told it is very different and complex. It is no easy task to master Byzantine Greek. My good Greek-American friend speaks modern Greek and is quite fluent. He grew up in the Greek Orthodox church, singing in the choir. He can sing all of the hymns in Byzantine Greek and he also can recite many of the prayers but he hasn't a clue about their meaning. He now attends an OCA parish which uses English and has been rediscovering the meaning of many of the hymns and prayers of the Orthodox Church.

This same friend shared with me that Byzantine Greek is the official language spoken by Ecumenical Patriarch. Does anyone know if this is the language he speaks in when he comes to the United States to visit his flock?

Koine was only used for the writings of the scripture and the early writings of the church (Apostolic Fathers). But after that time period Byzantine Greek was the language used for Patristics, liturgics, and hymnography.


http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/87308/Byzantine-Greek-language

Byzantine Greek
an archaic style of Greek that served as the language of administration and of most writing during the period of the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman, Empire until the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453. During the Byzantine period the spoken language continued to develop without the archaizing tendencies of the written language. Byzantine Greek is still the liturgical language of the Greek Orthodox church.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 02:32:20 AM by Tamara »

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2009, 03:54:56 AM »
This same friend shared with me that Byzantine Greek is the official language spoken by Ecumenical Patriarch. Does anyone know if this is the language he speaks in when he comes to the United States to visit his flock?

Yes.  I attended one of the Patriarchal Liturgies in NJ in 2004 and the Patriarch officiated in "Byzantine Greek" and spoke in Modern Greek 99.5% of the time.  An English translation of his homily was provided as a convenience.

I understand Byzantine Greek just fine.   :)

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2009, 09:30:53 AM »
From what I have been told it is very different and complex. It is no easy task to master Byzantine Greek. My good Greek-American friend speaks modern Greek and is quite fluent. He grew up in the Greek Orthodox church, singing in the choir. He can sing all of the hymns in Byzantine Greek and he also can recite many of the prayers but he hasn't a clue about their meaning. He now attends an OCA parish which uses English and has been rediscovering the meaning of many of the hymns and prayers of the Orthodox Church.

It does take some specialized education to get many of the words, but after studying Ancient, Koine, Patristic, and Modern Greek I can tell you that there are many words which haven't changed...

This same friend shared with me that Byzantine Greek is the official language spoken by Ecumenical Patriarch. Does anyone know if this is the language he speaks in when he comes to the United States to visit his flock?

Yikes.  No.  The Patriarch speaks "Katharevousa" when possible, which is a high-class Modern Greek.  When speaking about Liturgical concepts, or when quoting the Fathers, he uses the respective Greek languages that the references were written in.

Koine was only used for the writings of the scripture and the early writings of the church (Apostolic Fathers). But after that time period Byzantine Greek was the language used for Patristics, liturgics, and hymnography.

Eh, that's too simplistic an analysis of the progression; Koine was "Greek" for centuries.  "Byzantine" Greek (I clarify below) was an attempt by the upper-classes of Imperial Society, and Theologians alike, to bring the language back to Ancient Greek, reintroducing words and forms that had died beforehand.  But it wasn't necessarily "lingua franca" of its time - Koine was probably closer to it.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/87308/Byzantine-Greek-language

Byzantine Greek
an archaic style of Greek that served as the language of administration and of most writing during the period of the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman, Empire until the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453. During the Byzantine period the spoken language continued to develop without the archaizing tendencies of the written language. Byzantine Greek is still the liturgical language of the Greek Orthodox church.

We don't call it "Byzantine Greek;" many of us call it "Patristic Greek," while some others have less appropriate terms for it.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Liturgical languages in your Churches
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2009, 12:43:55 PM »
this one is much closer to serbian....i like ...Отец наш, который на небесах, пусть святится имя Твое, пусть придет Царство Твое, пусть будет воля Твоя на земле так, как и на небе. Хлеб наш насущный дай нам сегодня, и прости нам вины наши, как и мы прощаем тем, кто виноват перед нами, и не допусти, чтобы мы искусились, но избавь нас от лукавого. Твои же и Царство, и сила, и слава, Отцa, и Сына, и Святого Духа, ныне, и всегда, и во веки веков. Аминь..the other one is also readable and understandable...i like allso   both very nice ,,,,,,

Thank you, brother. That's simple modern Russian. Again, I really, really fail to understand why our Russian brothers and sisters do not use their real, live, beautiful modern vernacular Russian language in church. Let Mikhail Smirnov or Galina Volga or other Russians on this site correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that in a Russian church, only the sermon will be read in Russian; everything else is in the Old Church Slavonic, and, while it sometimes sounds kinda interesting and "cool," it's a DEAD language that no one speaks. I just can't imagine speaking and thinking one language and then going down on my knees before the Holy Icons and pray in a different language, and a dead one at that...
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