Author Topic: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications  (Read 14266 times)

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Offline lubeltri

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BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« on: January 22, 2009, 12:24:42 AM »
Several journalists have credibly reported that Pope Benedict XVI has issued a decree lifting the excommunications of the bishops of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X. The decree is to be made public imminently.

This is huge news if born out. Regularization could soon follow---we're talking about over 500 priests, brothers and sisters, with nearly 200 currently in seminary, in 63 countries.

For those not familiar, the SSPX is a non-canonical traditionalist priestly society formed by the late French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre several years after Vatican II. Originally in good standing with the Church, the fraternity (and its abrasive founder, Lefebvre) clashed with the French bishops and later the Vatican in the 1970s. Lefebvre was eventually put under suspension, but the SSPX continued to operate.

In 1988, now at an advanced age, Lefebvre defied Pope John Paul II and consecrated four new bishops for the fraternity. John Paul responded by excommunicating Lefebvre and the four bishops.

Lefebvre died in 1991, and one of the four bishops, Bernard Fellay, has succeeded him as Superior General.

The first big hurdle to be passed in the process of getting to this point was the de-restriction of the traditional Latin Mass, accomplished by Benedict's 7 July 2007 Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum. That was a major sticking point for the SSPX.

For details on the current developments, look here: http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/01/rumour-watch-explosive-news-related-to.html

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 12:29:21 AM »
The big question is if the SSPX really care one way or the other.  I have a feeling it's going to be a case of, "Thanks, but what about the rest of our [silly] demands, your, um, Holiness...?"
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 12:40:17 AM »
The big question is if the SSPX really care one way or the other.  I have a feeling it's going to be a case of, "Thanks, but what about the rest of our [silly] demands, your, um, Holiness...?"

I'm not so sure.  After the SSJV reconciled, I knew it would be just a matter of time before the SSPX would head down a similiar, though slightly more complex road.  Bishop Bernard Fellay seems like a reasonible man and I think this is a really good thing for the Roman Catholic Church.  I guess the question will be, if regularisation does follow, will all follow rank, or will some "seek refuge" in the SSPV?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 08:10:00 AM by Nebelpfade »
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Offline Innocent

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 07:44:00 AM »
This is really good news. I see the Pope moving Catholics back towards a pre-Vatican-II Church. He is doing it slowly to not cause a major schism but he is doing it. It would not surprise me to see the NO mass greatly officially modified (towards the Tridentine Mass) in the next 10-years.

When this Pope was elected I thought a younger Pope would have been better, but I've really grown to respect the choice of Pope Benedict XVI.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 11:01:59 AM »
Are they going to take the goofy daugher, the "Prietstly Society of Saint Josaphat?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Society_of_Saint_Josaphat

Quote
The SSJK condemns the ecumenism with the Orthodox currently practiced by both the Holy See and the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Instead the SSJK promotes Catholic missionary activities among the Orthodox, who are not in communion with the Holy See.

The SSJK rejects the de-Latinisation reforms presently prevailing in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which is in full communion with Rome. These reforms began with the 1930s under rule of Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky, but gained momentum with the 1964 decree Orientalium Ecclesiarum (Second Vatican Council) and several subsequent implementing documents. The SSJK for instance opposes the removal of the stations of the cross, the rosary and the monstrance from the liturgy and parishes of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. In rejecting these reforms, they also reject the right of the Church to make these reforms. Who controls the liturgy becomes an important point of debate.

Critics of the SSJK point out that the SSJK's liturgical practice favours severely abbreviated services and favours imported Roman Rite devotions over the traditional and authentic practices and devotions of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Proponents counter that these "Latin" symbols and rituals, borrowed from their Roman Catholic Polish neighbors some time ago have long been practiced by Ukrainian Greek Catholics, in some cases for centuries now, and that to deny them is to deprive the Ukrainian Catholic faithful of a part of their own sacred heritage. The central point in the dispute is over what constitutes 'organic development'. The Vatican in recent decades has explicitly maintained that latinization was not an organic development.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 11:06:25 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline VirSpeluncaeOrthodoxae

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 04:40:15 PM »
Can be only good for the Church of Rome...unless that is you're of the "Spirit of Vatican 2" ilk that has dancing, puppets and weird music etc.
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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 04:51:53 PM »
Are they going to take the goofy daugher, the "Prietstly Society of Saint Josaphat?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Society_of_Saint_Josaphat

Quote
The SSJK condemns the ecumenism with the Orthodox currently practiced by both the Holy See and the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Instead the SSJK promotes Catholic missionary activities among the Orthodox, who are not in communion with the Holy See.

The SSJK rejects the de-Latinisation reforms presently prevailing in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which is in full communion with Rome. These reforms began with the 1930s under rule of Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky, but gained momentum with the 1964 decree Orientalium Ecclesiarum (Second Vatican Council) and several subsequent implementing documents. The SSJK for instance opposes the removal of the stations of the cross, the rosary and the monstrance from the liturgy and parishes of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. In rejecting these reforms, they also reject the right of the Church to make these reforms. Who controls the liturgy becomes an important point of debate.

Critics of the SSJK point out that the SSJK's liturgical practice favours severely abbreviated services and favours imported Roman Rite devotions over the traditional and authentic practices and devotions of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Proponents counter that these "Latin" symbols and rituals, borrowed from their Roman Catholic Polish neighbors some time ago have long been practiced by Ukrainian Greek Catholics, in some cases for centuries now, and that to deny them is to deprive the Ukrainian Catholic faithful of a part of their own sacred heritage. The central point in the dispute is over what constitutes 'organic development'. The Vatican in recent decades has explicitly maintained that latinization was not an organic development.


No.  Rome recently upheld the Ukrainian Catholic Synod's excommunication of 4 bishops ordained by the SSPX for the PSSJ.

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 05:31:55 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the SSPX a sedevacantist group which holds that the last "legitimate" Pope was Pius XII and that others since Vatican II are nothing more than pretenders?  If so, why would they care if the Vatican declared them schismatics no more?
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 05:38:40 PM »
The SSPX is not sedevacantist, that is the SSPV.  You were only off by V. :)

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« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 05:39:32 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 05:47:37 PM »
This is really good news. I see the Pope moving Catholics back towards a pre-Vatican-II Church. He is doing it slowly to not cause a major schism but he is doing it. It would not surprise me to see the NO mass greatly officially modified (towards the Tridentine Mass) in the next 10-years.

When this Pope was elected I thought a younger Pope would have been better, but I've really grown to respect the choice of Pope Benedict XVI.

Ya gotta be kidding us!  Do you know the hsitory behind this group and their opinion and intentions regarding the (U word) and Orthodoxy?

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 06:03:47 PM »
I know there views completely. I also know the Pope's vies and his views on the Orthodox Church and theirs views are vastly different. I agree with their views on the Mass and the modernist tendencies of the RC Church since Vatican-II. I do not subscribe to their ideas on Orthodoxy and I believe bringing them back under the Pope will modify those views. This is my opinion and you can have yours.

This is really good news. I see the Pope moving Catholics back towards a pre-Vatican-II Church. He is doing it slowly to not cause a major schism but he is doing it. It would not surprise me to see the NO mass greatly officially modified (towards the Tridentine Mass) in the next 10-years.

When this Pope was elected I thought a younger Pope would have been better, but I've really grown to respect the choice of Pope Benedict XVI.

Ya gotta be kidding us!  Do you know the hsitory behind this group and their opinion and intentions regarding the (U word) and Orthodoxy?

Orthodoc

Offline John of the North

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 07:29:06 PM »
Tell me again why I'm supposed to care about the SSPX??
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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 07:42:32 PM »
The SSPX is not sedevacantist, that is the SSPV.  You were only off by V. :)

Fr. Deacon Lance


OK, someone is going to have break down all these different groups with different acronyms because I'm not sure if  some of them are synonymous or what.

Who are the SSPV, the SSJV, the SSJK and any other SS__ group I might have left out?  Do they all have the same beef with the Vatican?  Are some more radical (i.e. traditional)?  Are all pretty much for the permanent reestablishment of the Tridentine Rite and don't like Vatican II?

Tell me again why I'm supposed to care about the SSPX??

No one is forcing you to read these or care.  But if there is a thawing, from what I've been told, it could radically change any chance of reconciliation with the Orthodox since the SSPX are not in favor of such a thing, but making the Orthodox Roman Catholic.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 07:44:52 PM by scamandrius »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 07:52:49 PM »
The SSPX is not sedevacantist, that is the SSPV.  You were only off by V. :)

Fr. Deacon Lance


OK, someone is going to have break down all these different groups with different acronyms because I'm not sure if  some of them are synonymous or what.

Who are the SSPV, the SSJV, the SSJK and any other SS__ group I might have left out?  Do they all have the same beef with the Vatican?  Are some more radical (i.e. traditional)?  Are all pretty much for the permanent reestablishment of the Tridentine Rite and don't like Vatican II?

Tell me again why I'm supposed to care about the SSPX??

No one is forcing you to read these or care.  But if there is a thawing, from what I've been told, it could radically change any chance of reconciliation with the Orthodox since the SSPX are not in favor of such a thing, but making the Orthodox Roman Catholic.

You mean honesty.
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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 07:55:01 PM »
Tell me again why I'm supposed to care about the SSPX??

Exactly what I was thinking.  It is a public forum and therefore anyone can express their thoughts and feelings per forum rules.  In this case I will add a resounding "second" to Ukie's post. 

Offline Milliardo

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 08:34:20 PM »
The big question is if the SSPX really care one way or the other.  I have a feeling it's going to be a case of, "Thanks, but what about the rest of our [silly] demands, your, um, Holiness...?"

I also have a feeling this will be the attitude of the SSPX. Rome has tried to court them many times, but each time the response has been the same: thanks, but no thanks.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 09:23:18 PM »
SSJV: Priestly Society of St. John Mary Vianney, now reconciled to the Roman Catholic Church

SSPX: Priestly Society of St. Pius X

SSJK: Priestly Society of St. Josaphat Kuncevich, Ukrainian Catholics affiliated with SSPX

SSPV: Priestly Society of Saint Pius V, Sedevacantists

CMRI: Congregation of Mary Immaculate Quen, Sedevacantists
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2009, 09:56:55 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the SSPX a sedevacantist group which holds that the last "legitimate" Pope was Pius XII and that others since Vatican II are nothing more than pretenders?  If so, why would they care if the Vatican declared them schismatics no more?

They are also not considered schismatic. They are canonically irregular---though, no doubt, some of their priests may be individually schismatic in spirit.

Their bishops are excommunicate and their priests are under suspension. The Masses they celebrate are valid. The interesting thing to consider canonically is that two sacraments they celebrate are of questionable validity---Penance and Matrimony---because of their suspended status (canon law requires faculties delegated from the local ordinary for these sacraments, which, being suspended, they do not have).

There are a number of groups previously a part of or affiliated with the SSPX which have since fully reconciled with Rome. Here are some:

-Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (formed in 1988 by priests who left the SSPX after the excommunications)

-Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney (before reconciliation in 2002, this was a traditionalist "shadow" diocese in Campos, Brazil; now it is a canonical community with its own bishop)

-Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer (reconciled 1988)

-Institute of the Good Shepherd (formed in 2006 by priests who left the SSPX)

-Benedictine Abbey of Saint Madeleine du Barroux (reconciled 1988)

-Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer (reconciled 2008; formerly called the Transalpine Redemptorists)




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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 10:05:24 PM »
They are also not considered schismatic. They are canonically irregular---though, no doubt, some of their priests may be individually schismatic in spirit.

Their bishops are excommunicate and their priests are under suspension. The Masses they celebrate are valid. The interesting thing to consider canonically is that two sacraments they celebrate are of questionable validity---Penance and Matrimony---because of their suspended status (canon law requires faculties delegated from the local ordinary for these sacraments, which, being suspended, they do not have).

Convoluted and juridical Latin ecclesiology at its finest.   ::)
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Offline stanley123

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 02:22:35 AM »
Bishop Fellay who heads the SSPX appears to be a reasonable man. However, I would not say the same thing about Bishop Williamson. It appears that Bishop Williamson is very much a hardliner, and that he give indications of anti-semitism. For example, it looks like he may have endorsed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and denied the holocaust. He also takes a hardline toward any reconciliation with the Eastern Orthodox Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson_(bishop)_ .

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2009, 02:34:07 AM »
...it looks like he may have endorsed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and denied the holocaust. He also takes a hardline toward any reconciliation with the (other side).

This guy sounds really Orthodox to me!  :laugh:

Offline ignatius

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2009, 11:25:49 AM »
Doesn't this also reveal the messiness of layered Jurisdictions (i.e. Bishops with Papal Jurisdiction on top)?

Please correct me if I am in error but within Orthodoxy such an 'excommunication' would have never happened. The Archbishop would have simply broke communion and operated independently until such time as normal communal relations would have been reestablished. Would this be fair to say?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2009, 11:30:00 AM »
...it looks like he may have endorsed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and denied the holocaust. He also takes a hardline toward any reconciliation with the (other side).

This guy sounds really Orthodox to me!  :laugh:
???
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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2009, 11:50:36 AM »
...it looks like he may have endorsed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and denied the holocaust. He also takes a hardline toward any reconciliation with the (other side).

This guy sounds really Orthodox to me!  :laugh:
???

I believe Alveus Lacuna is simply finding humor in the similar intransigence towards union on both sides of the divide.
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Offline VirSpeluncaeOrthodoxae

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2009, 02:39:01 PM »
Maybe, but if I were Catholic I'd take Bp. Williamson over say...Cd. Mahoney, Bp. Trautman, et al any day. From the Roman POV the SSPX are after the mold of pre-Vat II theology and ecclesiology whereas the modernists look, act, and think like protestants.

As for why we should care, it will affect Rome's ascent from apostasy. It may not make them Orthodox but it's at least a step in the right direction.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2009, 02:42:01 PM »
???

I was also alluding to the Arizona Elder Ephrem (sp?) Monastery which supposedly is really into Jewish shadow government theories, and the Orthodox opposition to "Ecumenism."

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2009, 04:06:00 PM »
That reminds me of a funny story told by Nektarios:


These are the same people who also believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, insist that the September 11th terrorist attacks were a Jewish conspiracy etc.  My time spent on Mt. Athos was very eye opening as to the true nature of the self proclaimed Orthodox Elder crowd and their lay gruppies.  My personal favorite was the Athonite monk who told me he had changed monasteries because of the open courtyard of his old one - the Jews were able to watch him from their satellites.  You can't blame someone for taking them with a grain of salt.   

LOL.

The SSPX has already disavowed Bishop Williamson's comments. Even for them he is a nutter.

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2009, 10:49:35 PM »
Personally, I think Bishop Bernard Fellay's response to Bishop Richard Williamson's comments was perfect.  It is about a secular matter having nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church nor the SSPX, so his personal opinions should be viewed as just that, his personal opinions.
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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2009, 12:03:33 AM »
???

I was also alluding to the Arizona Elder Ephrem (sp?) Monastery which supposedly is really into Jewish shadow government theories, and the Orthodox opposition to "Ecumenism."

Do you have evidence?   :-[

Offline lubeltri

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2009, 01:34:50 PM »
Decree of the Congregation for Bishops

CONGREGATIO PRO EPISCOPIS



By way of a letter of December 15, 2008 addressed to His Eminence Cardinal Dario Castrillón Hoyos, President of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, Mons. Bernard Fellay, also in the name of the other three Bishops consecrated on June 30, 1988, requested anew the removal of the latae sententiae excommunication formally declared with the Decree of the Prefect of this Congregation on July 1, 1988. In the aforementioned letter, Mons. Fellay affirms, among other things: "We are always firmly determined in our will to remain Catholic and to place all our efforts at the service of the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is the Roman Catholic Church. We accept its teachings with filial disposition. We believe firmly in the Primacy of Peter and in its prerogatives, and for this the current situation makes us suffer so much."

His Holiness Benedict XVI - paternally sensitive to the spiritual unease manifested by the interested party due to the sanction of excommunication and trusting in the effort expressed by them in the aforementioned letter of not sparing any effort to deepen the necessary discussions with the Authority of the Holy See in the still open matters, so as to achieve shortly a full and satisfactory solution of the problem posed in the origin - decided to reconsider the canonical situation of Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson, and Alfonso de Galarreta, arisen with their episcopal consecration.

With this act, it is desired to consolidate the reciprocal relations of confidence and to intensify and grant stability to the relationship of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X with this Apostolic See. This gift of peace, at the end of the Christmas celebrations, is also intended to be a sign to promote unity in the charity of the universal Church and to try to vanquish the scandal of division.

It is hoped that this step be followed by the prompt accomplishment of full communion with the Church of the entire Fraternity of Saint Pius X, thus testifying true fidelity and true recognition of the Magisterium and of the authority of the Pope with the proof of visible unity.

Based on the faculties expressly granted to me by the Holy Father Benedict XVI, in virtue of the present Decree, I remit from Bishops Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson, and Alfonso de Galarreta the censure of latae sententiae excommunication declared by this Congregation on July 1, 1988, while I declare deprived of any juridical effect, from the present date, the Decree emanated at that time.


Rome, from the Congregation for Bishops, January 21, 2009.

Card. Giovanni Battista Re
Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops


http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/01/document-repealing-excommunications_24.html

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2009, 11:45:44 AM »
The SSPX has already disavowed Bishop Williamson's comments. Even for them he is a nutter.

Perhaps.  However, another twist to the story has been developing recently.

Pope didn't know bishop had denied Holocaust, Vatican says

The Vatican has demanded that a bishop who denied the Holocaust must recant his position before being fully readmitted into the Roman Catholic Church.

The Vatican also said in a statement Wednesday that Pope Benedict XVI didn't know about Bishop Richard Williamson's views when he agreed to lift his excommunication and that of three other ultraconservative bishops last week.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/02/04/pope-williams.html

« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:48:22 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Papist

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2009, 12:03:31 PM »
Has anyone heard any news of the SSPX moving toward full communion after the lifting of the excommunication?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline observer

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2009, 12:19:02 PM »
<Jewish shadow government theories,> slighty off topic I know (mea culpa) but Bishop Williamson can read as well as I can - Sharon's comments on controlling USA - Finkelstein , a whole list of people who have studied the problem and can predict these 'theories'.  For those of you who could not possible conceive of such a dastardly plot, I recommend Biedermann und die Brandstifter by Max Frisch.
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Offline mike

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2009, 12:39:32 PM »
Has anyone heard any news of the SSPX moving toward full communion after the lifting of the excommunication?

I've heard that they would have own Personal prelature made just as those Anglicans.
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Offline Papist

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2009, 12:42:11 PM »
Has anyone heard any news of the SSPX moving toward full communion after the lifting of the excommunication?

I've heard that they would have own Personal prelature made just as those Anglicans.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Now, I think there is still the matter of this group's rejection of Vatican II. I think they still must accept Vactican II before they come back into communioin. Has anyone heard of any progress being made on this matter?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2009, 01:42:22 PM »
Here's some interesting news:  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_jews

Vatican: Holocaust denier must recant
         
 VATICAN CITY – The Vatican on Wednesday demanded that a prelate who denied the Holocaust recant his positions before being fully admitted as a bishop into the Roman Catholic Church.

It also said Pope Benedict XVI had not known about Bishop Richard Williamson's views when he agreed to lift his excommunication and that of three other ultraconservative bishops Jan. 21.

The Vatican's Secretariat of State issued the statement a day after German Chancellor Angela Merkel urged the pope to make a clearer rejection of Holocaust denials, saying there had not been adequate clarification from the church.

The Holy See on Jan. 24 announced the rehabilitation of four bishops excommunicated in 1988 after being consecrated without papal consent.

Just days before, Williamson had been shown on Swedish state television saying historical evidence "is hugely against 6 million Jews having been deliberately gassed" during World War II.

Williamson has since apologized to the German-born pope for having stirred controversy, but he did not repudiate his comments, in which he also said only 200,000 to 300,000 Jews were killed during World War II and none were gassed.

Though the Vatican said it did not share Williamson's views, Jewish groups voiced outrage at his rehabilitation and demanded the prelate recant.

Williamson and the three other bishops were consecrated by the late ultraconservative Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who in 1969 founded the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X opposed to the liberalizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council, including its outreach to Jews.

The Vatican said Wednesday that, while Williamson's excommunication had been lifted, he still had no canonical function in the church because he was consecrated illegitimately.

"Bishop Williamson, in order to be admitted to episcopal functions within the church, will have to take his distance, in an absolutely unequivocal and public fashion, from his position on the Shoah, which the Holy Father was not aware of when the excommunication was lifted," the statement said. The Shoah is the Hebrew term for the Holocaust.

Jewish groups welcomed the Vatican statement, saying it satisfied their key demand.

"This was the sign the Jewish world has been waiting for," said Ronald Lauder, president of the World Jewish Congress.

Elan Steinberg, vice president of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors and their Descendants, thanked Merkel for her "righteous comments" and said the process to heal the "deep wound that this crisis caused to the Catholic-Jewish dialogue" could now begin.

Williamson's interview on Swedish state TV was aired Jan. 21. The decree lifting his excommunication bore the same date, although it was not announced until three days later. The broadcaster said the timing was a coincidence, but Williamson has expressed his views about the Holocaust previously.

Wednesday's statement was a remarkable turnabout by the Vatican, which had considered the Williamson case "closed" after Benedict issued a lengthy denunciation of Holocaust deniers last week and the society itself distanced itself from Williamson's views.

On Jan. 28, the pope said he felt "full and indisputable solidarity" with Jews, and warned against any denial of the full horror of the Nazi genocide.

The Vatican's secretary of state, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, cited those comments Tuesday in telling the newspaper of the Italian bishops' conference Avvenire that, as far as he was concerned, "the question can be considered closed."

Yet the pressure continued, including from Roman Catholic leaders in Benedict's native Germany and Merkel's comments Tuesday.

It was not immediately clear if the Vatican's newest statement Wednesday satisfied Merkel.

"The chancellor has spoken and has nothing to add to her comments from yesterday," her spokesman Ulrich Wilhelm told reporters in Berlin.

In addition to its demand of Williamson, the Vatican also said society as a whole must fully recognize the teachings of Vatican II and of all popes who came during and after it in order to have a legitimate canonical function in the church.

There was no answer to several calls placed Wednesday to Williamson's home in La Reya, Argentina.
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2009, 02:03:23 PM »
Quote
“They won’t be asked to accept the Council,” Monsignor Barreiro said. “There is nothing dogmatic regarding faith and morals in the Council documents,” he emphasized. “Many have elevated the Council as if it were a superdogma, when in truth, it was not dogmatic at all.”

In the SSPX’s official request to the Holy See asking for the lifting of the excommunications, Bishop Bernard Fellay wrote the following: “We are ready to write the Creed with our own blood, sign the anti-Modernist oath, the Profession of Faith of Pope Pius IV, we accept and make our own all the Councils up to the First Vatican Council. Yet we can but confess reservations concerning the Second Vatican Council, which intended to a Council “different from the others.” (Addressed by Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI)

Source

The source is far from perfect, but it says some interesting things.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2009, 07:42:12 PM »
Has anyone heard any news of the SSPX moving toward full communion after the lifting of the excommunication?

I've heard that they would have own Personal prelature made just as those Anglicans.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Now, I think there is still the matter of this group's rejection of Vatican II. I think they still must accept Vactican II before they come back into communioin. Has anyone heard of any progress being made on this matter?

The Holy Father is said to plan to establish temporary faculties for the SSPX bishops and priests until a suitable juridical arrangement can be found.

However, this move has been delayed by the shrill, mendacious, and unrelenting global firestorm directed at the Pope for (as the "mainstream" media likes to misleadingly characterize it) "rehabilitating a Holocaust denier." The secularist enemies of the Pope and the Catholic Church have all come out of the woodwork, working to sabotage Benedict's work for unity and the restoration of our Church. The calumny and ill-will and unscrupulosity of these evil attacks have been breathtaking, and no amount of profuse apology from the Pope or anyone else will stop it.

Of course, all the geriatric heretics "within" the Catholic Church (in truth, they aren't) have emerged from their lairs with predictable attacks on the Holy Father. Heresiarch Hans Kung has been whining at the Pope to treat the "progressives" generously too (as if they weren't already! Kung has never been formally excommunicated or even suspended, unlike the SSPX bishops who, though disobedient, at least are Catholic!). Kung's colleague Hermann Haering is making the rounds of the secularist press, calling on the Pope to resign (LOL!).

The worst hypocrisy has been coming from the politicians and from the self-appointed spokesmen for the Jews---you know, the professional whiners about perceived "offenses" and "insensitivities."

As much as they try, these people will not succeed. The whole thing is a farce.

Offline ROCORthodox

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2009, 12:58:07 PM »
Quote
As much as they try, these people will not succeed.

I hope you are right!

Offline stanley123

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2009, 05:36:56 PM »
Has anyone heard any news of the SSPX moving toward full communion after the lifting of the excommunication?

I've heard that they would have own Personal prelature made just as those Anglicans.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Now, I think there is still the matter of this group's rejection of Vatican II. I think they still must accept Vactican II before they come back into communioin. Has anyone heard of any progress being made on this matter?

The Holy Father is said to plan to establish temporary faculties for the SSPX bishops and priests until a suitable juridical arrangement can be found.

However, this move has been delayed by the shrill, mendacious, and unrelenting global firestorm directed at the Pope for (as the "mainstream" media likes to misleadingly characterize it) "rehabilitating a Holocaust denier." The secularist enemies of the Pope and the Catholic Church have all come out of the woodwork, working to sabotage Benedict's work for unity and the restoration of our Church. The calumny and ill-will and unscrupulosity of these evil attacks have been breathtaking, and no amount of profuse apology from the Pope or anyone else will stop it.

Of course, all the geriatric heretics "within" the Catholic Church (in truth, they aren't) have emerged from their lairs with predictable attacks on the Holy Father. Heresiarch Hans Kung has been whining at the Pope to treat the "progressives" generously too (as if they weren't already! Kung has never been formally excommunicated or even suspended, unlike the SSPX bishops who, though disobedient, at least are Catholic!). Kung's colleague Hermann Haering is making the rounds of the secularist press, calling on the Pope to resign (LOL!).

The worst hypocrisy has been coming from the politicians and from the self-appointed spokesmen for the Jews---you know, the professional whiners about perceived "offenses" and "insensitivities."

As much as they try, these people will not succeed. The whole thing is a farce.
The problem is that Bishop Williamson has denied the holocaust and has quoted approvingly from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Further, he has implied that 9/11 was an inside job. Holocaust denial is a crime in many countries in Europe. Bishop Williamson has himself being videotaped and breaking the law of a country which had accepted him as a guest.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2009, 10:50:06 PM »
Whatever his personal non-theological views, however wrongheaded, they have nothing to do with the decision to rescind the excommunications.

BTW, he does not "deny the Holocaust." He just thinks only about 300,000 Jews were killed, and none via gas chambers. This view is idiotic, but it has nothing to do with his canonical state in the Catholic Church.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: BREAKING: Pope Benedict to lift SSPX excommunications
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2009, 10:52:15 PM »
Let us make sure we keep things on topic.  Debating/discussing "Holocaust denial" and its implications are best left for another thread in another section.
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