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Irish Hermit
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« on: February 06, 2009, 12:26:28 PM »

MODERATION:
This topic has been split from the thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19491.0.html




All posters are reminded of this post by the administrator of the forum:

I would like this thread to stay on the theoretical and not turn personal, thanks. This is a general request for all parties.

Fr Anastasios
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Thank you, George,  I am very tired of being accused of being slow to provide answers, of avoiding answers,  of obfuscation and other such things.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 03:42:26 PM by ozgeorge » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2009, 12:32:49 PM »

Fr. Ambrose....Mybe Pravoslav Bob is a convert to orthodoxy and he know's better than the cradle orthodox on what we should or shouldn't do......I never take communion in the orthodox churches that i visit ..be it greek russian, ukrainian,romainian ,,unless i prepare for a week of fasting and prayer..the words of Christ are serious to partake unworthily...this is how i was raised.....Father Bless...
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 12:43:46 PM »

I think that we need a deeper investigation of why all the Orthodox observed a particular pattern of receiving Communion for 1,600 years. 

The evidence is already in, very clear, and very deep indeed.  You seem to choose to ignore it, perhaps because it does not fit with how you have lived your life in the Church up to this point, or for other reasons that I would not not care to speculate about.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 01:19:33 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 12:48:48 PM »

Your kind of thinking represents the worst kind of traditionalist posturing current in the Orthodox Church today.  (And believe me, I know that there are problems on the other end of the Orthodox spectrum, so please don't use this as a way to deflect the thrust of my argument.)  It is anti-intellectual, anti-historical, and obtusely incorrigible in its unwillingness to admit that the traditions of men can poison the Church.  You seem ready to deem any bizarre practice to be "holy" if it has been practiced for a certain amount of time, no matter what the evidence to the contrary might be.   (Myself and many others have posted ample evidence here, so I will not repeat it.)   You elevate the corrupt practices of men to the status of Holy Tradition and dress them up with all kinds of pious words about how revered these practices are.  This is indefensible.  

Your oft-repeated claims that the practice of infreqent communion has created many thousands of saints is not substantiated by any evidence.  Any saints that were deacons, priests, hieromonks, hierodeacons, or bishops were sure to have communed frequently.   As for the others, thank God that His Grace is at work in the Church despite the best efforts of men to destroy the very fabric of the Church Herself.   If it were up to men, the Church would have been destroyed eons ago.  But thank God that He has promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her.  What a travesty it is that the very mystery that constitutes the Church, that makes Her what She is, is denied to Her members weekly around the globe!

You have disingenuously mixed up pastoral sensitivity in your argument as to why infrequent communion should be considered a pious practice.  This has nothing to do with it.  The pastoral thing to do would be to gently encourage people to commune more frequently, and to gently and lovingly integrate this return to genuine Christian practice over a period of time.


It is only 15 minutes since George reminded us of the Administrator's message that we must not be personal.... and yet here you are still accusing me of being guilty of

" the worst kind of traditionalist posturing..."

"anti-intellectual"

"anti-historical"

"obtusely incorrigible"

You accuse me of being willing

"to deem any bizarre practice to be "holy" if.."

and

"you elevate the corrupt practices of men to the status of Holy Tradition"

and finally accused me of acting

"disingenuously."


That's quite an avalanche of nasty things to write.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 12:54:17 PM »

Mybe Pravoslav Bob is a convert to orthodoxy and he know's better than the cradle orthodox on what we should or shouldn't do......
Isn't that a bit personal?
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 01:00:29 PM »

I didn't mean it as personal...i didn't see what Fr.A posted till after i posted....
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 01:22:32 PM »

What is the purpose of splitting these posts off from the Communion thread to which they are obviously integral?

Why are those who continued to posts personal remarks after, firstly, the Adminstratior's warning, then followed by George repeating that warning....?
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 01:32:43 PM »

Your kind of thinking represents the worst kind of traditionalist posturing current in the Orthodox Church today.  (And believe me, I know that there are problems on the other end of the Orthodox spectrum, so please don't use this as a way to deflect the thrust of my argument.)  It is anti-intellectual, anti-historical, and obtusely incorrigible in its unwillingness to admit that the traditions of men can poison the Church.  You seem ready to deem any bizarre practice to be "holy" if it has been practiced for a certain amount of time, no matter what the evidence to the contrary might be.   (Myself and many others have posted ample evidence here, so I will not repeat it.)   You elevate the corrupt practices of men to the status of Holy Tradition and dress them up with all kinds of pious words about how revered these practices are.  This is indefensible.  

Your oft-repeated claims that the practice of infreqent communion has created many thousands of saints is not substantiated by any evidence.  Any saints that were deacons, priests, hieromonks, hierodeacons, or bishops were sure to have communed frequently.   As for the others, thank God that His Grace is at work in the Church despite the best efforts of men to destroy the very fabric of the Church Herself.   If it were up to men, the Church would have been destroyed eons ago.  But thank God that He has promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her.  What a travesty it is that the very great Mystery that constitutes the Church, that makes Her what She is, is denied to Her members weekly around the globe!

You have disingenuously mixed up pastoral sensitivity in your argument as to why infrequent communion should be considered a pious practice.  This has nothing to do with it.  The pastoral thing to do would be to gently encourage people to commune more frequently, and to gently and lovingly integrate this return to genuine Christian practice over a period of time.


Contrary to the Admin's instructions the message above is simply a tissue of ad hominems.  May I respectfully request that something be done to bring into effect the Admin's instructions.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 01:36:35 PM »

Contrary to the Admin's instructions the message above is simply a tissue of ad hominems.  May I respectfully request that something be done to bring into effect the Admin's instructions.

You already have requested this since you have reported the post. There is no need to derail the thread by discussing this on the thread is there? That is why I have split your post from the original thread and merged it here.
In future, if you feel the need to comment or dicuss this, please do so in this thread and not derail the original thread.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 01:52:14 PM »


Your kind of thinking represents the worst kind of traditionalist posturing current in the Orthodox Church today.  (And believe me, I know that there are problems on the other end of the Orthodox spectrum, so please don't use this as a way to deflect the thrust of my argument.)  It is anti-intellectual, anti-historical, and obtusely incorrigible in its unwillingness to admit that the traditions of men can poison the Church.  You seem ready to deem any bizarre practice to be "holy" if it has been practiced for a certain amount of time, no matter what the evidence to the contrary might be.   (Myself and many others have posted ample evidence here, so I will not repeat it.)   You elevate the corrupt practices of men to the status of Holy Tradition and dress them up with all kinds of pious words about how revered these practices are.  This is indefensible.  

Your oft-repeated claims that the practice of infreqent communion has created many thousands of saints is not substantiated by any evidence.  Any saints that were deacons, priests, hieromonks, hierodeacons, or bishops were sure to have communed frequently.   As for the others, thank God that His Grace is at work in the Church despite the best efforts of men to destroy the very fabric of the Church Herself.   If it were up to men, the Church would have been destroyed eons ago.  But thank God that He has promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her.  What a travesty it is that the very great Mystery that constitutes the Church, that makes Her what She is, is denied to Her members weekly around the globe!

You have disingenuously mixed up pastoral sensitivity in your argument as to why infrequent communion should be considered a pious practice.  This has nothing to do with it.  The pastoral thing to do would be to gently encourage people to commune more frequently, and to gently and lovingly integrate this return to genuine Christian practice over a period of time.

May I ask why this post which is replete with ad hominems against me is allowed to stand on the Forum and yet my protests, fully in accord with the Admin's instructions against such personal attacks and issued before this message, are simply ignored.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2009, 01:58:13 PM »

May I ask why this post which is replete with ad hominems against me is allowed to stand on the Forum and yet my protests, fully in accord with the Admin's instructions against such personal attacks and issued before this message, are simply ignored.

May I ask why you insist on derailing the thread after I asked you not to?
You have reported this post to the moderators using the "report to moderator" function. The moderators are discussing it.
Please be patient.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 01:58:28 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2009, 02:04:40 PM »

May I ask why this post which is replete with ad hominems against me is allowed to stand on the Forum and yet my protests, fully in accord with the Admin's instructions against such personal attacks and issued before this message, are simply ignored.

May I ask why you insist on derailing the thread after I asked you not to?
You have reported this post to the moderators using the "report to moderator" function. The moderators are discussing it.
Please be patient.

Yes, of course you may ask and I am happy to be offered the opportunity of explaining.  I am really upset by the high level of anger and rudeness directed at me, merely because I come from a different tradition about the frequency of communion.  While I myself can exist in a world which has both frequent and infrequent communicants, people here are unable to be so tolerant and have launched a quite awful campaign against me and against the tradition with which I was reared in Orthodoxy.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2009, 02:11:44 PM »

May I ask why this post which is replete with ad hominems against me is allowed to stand on the Forum and yet my protests, fully in accord with the Admin's instructions against such personal attacks and issued before this message, are simply ignored.

May I ask why you insist on derailing the thread after I asked you not to?
You have reported this post to the moderators using the "report to moderator" function. The moderators are discussing it.
Please be patient.

I am not trying to derail the thread after being asked not to.   I had not seen your request at the time... It has become rather confusing now that there are the two threads in different areas of the Forum. 
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2009, 02:15:15 PM »

May I ask why this post which is replete with ad hominems against me is allowed to stand on the Forum and yet my protests, fully in accord with the Admin's instructions against such personal attacks and issued before this message, are simply ignored.

May I ask why you insist on derailing the thread after I asked you not to?
You have reported this post to the moderators using the "report to moderator" function. The moderators are discussing it.
Please be patient.

Yes, of course you may ask and I am happy to be offered the opportunity of explaining.  I am really upset by the high level of anger and rudeness directed at me, merely because I come from a different tradition about the frequency of communion.  While I myself can exist in a world which has both frequent and infrequent communicants, people here are unable to be so tolerant and have launched a quite awful campaign against me and against the tradition with which I was reared in Orthodoxy.

I can appreciate that you are angry. I get angry too (as you know).
What I think though is that we need to seperate the issues. I don't think many people are being rude to you on the thread, and the post which may have been has been reported by you and is being discussed. I certainly have tried to be polite to you on the thread even though I disagree with you about what the Tradition of the Orthodox Church is.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2009, 02:17:17 PM »

I am not trying to derail the thread after being asked not to.   I had not seen your request at the time... It has become rather confusing now that there are the two threads in different areas of the Forum. 
There are two different threads because there are two different topics.
I understand now that you didn't see my request because of this.
Please rest assured that the Post you reported is being discussed.

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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2009, 02:26:07 PM »

I attend Liturgy at the Holy Monastery of St. George in the Blue Mountains.



That's interesting.  Do you know George name removed and his family?  They lived in New Zealand for many years and even built a church in Masterton to which George would kindly invite me to serve Aprypnia and Liturgy now and again.  Btw, they would be able to answer your question as to whether or not I am a priest.


Moderation:
Please do not identify people without their permission.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 02:39:07 PM by ozgeorge » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2009, 03:41:23 PM »

I don't think many people are being rude to you on the thread
But those who have been rude, have been extremely rude.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2009, 03:42:41 PM »

I attend Liturgy at the Holy Monastery of St. George in the Blue Mountains.



That's interesting.  Do you know George name removed and his family?  They lived in New Zealand for many years and even built a church in Masterton to which George would kindly invite me to serve Aprypnia and Liturgy now and again.  Btw, they would be able to answer your question as to whether or not I am a priest.


Moderation:
Please do not identify people without their permission.


My apolopgies, I have not read the Forum Rules for quite a while.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2009, 03:54:38 PM »

I don't think many people are being rude to you on the thread
But those who have been rude, have been extremely rude.
OK, clearly everyone wants this dealt with faster. Unfortunately we have to wait until the other moderators and Admins are online. I guess it's my fault, as I should telephone the moderators around the world and inform them that we need an outcome. Therefore I have now issued myself with a warning.

Mybe Pravoslav Bob is a convert to orthodoxy and he know's better than the cradle orthodox on what we should or shouldn't do......
Isn't that a bit personal?
 Warned for not speeding up the process of dealing with a reported post.
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2009, 04:06:39 PM »

I am going to close all the threads where there is contention in about five minutes since Fr Chris is not online. Then let Fr Chris decide what he wants to do with all the reported posts.
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