Author Topic: Relations between Ukrainian Churches  (Read 15286 times)

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Offline Starlight

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2009, 02:22:27 AM »

Hehe I love Vl. Ilarion and I talk with Fr. Phillip regularly!

Excellent!

Offline mike

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2009, 11:16:30 AM »
Overall relationships between UOC-USA and UOCC always could be described as brotherly. Actually, UOC of USA and Diaspora included (3) Dioceses in USA (Pittsburgh, PA; South Bound Brook, NJ; and Chicago, IL) as well as (3) diocese in other countries:
- The Diocese of South America. An experience of a great growth lately. Parishes exist in Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil and Venezuela. Center - Curitiba, Brazil. This diocese may be split into (2).
- The Diocese of Western Europe. Also some improvements in the last couple of years. Parishes function in Belgium, France, Germany and Great Britain. Center - Genk, Belgium, previously - London, UK.
- The Diocese of Australia and New Zealand. Seems to include several parishes in Australia as well as one more in New Zealand.

Thanks! So this parish no longers belongs to UOC of Diaspora? Or was it simply moved to another place?

The only one Orthodox monastery outside Ukraine, which has the vast majority of services (possibly even all) in Ukrainian:
http://www.monasterujkowice.pl/
Location - Ujkowice, Poland. Surely the monastery belongs to Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church.

Unfortunately I've never been there but I was told by many people that they use Church Slavonic with Ukrainian accent not plain Ukrainian. In Poland there is one parish which might use Ukrainian. I'll ask for details.

edit:

What do you think about UOC priests conducting Services in Portugal and Spain?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 11:32:14 AM by mike »
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2009, 12:44:22 PM »
I'm actually cool with whatever usage English speakers agree to use amongst themselves. Ukraine is fine with me and it is actually what I use in my speech. But I am wary of attempts to change words based on some political consideration.

But our daily life and culture is heavily impacted by political considerations so that it is artificial to exclude politics from linguistics.  Unless someone has been living under a rock for the past few years Ukraine has been in the news quite a bit: Orange Revolution, potential NATO membership and disputes with Gazprom. 

Offline AMM

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2009, 01:58:55 PM »
In Poland there is one parish which might use Ukrainian. I'll ask for details.

Interesting icon gallery of Sv. Petro.

Offline mike

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2009, 02:46:44 PM »
Does any now any current statistics about current division of EOs in Ukraine? The ratio between these three Churches?

I've read somewhere that UOC covers about 70% of people in Ukraine. But according to your posts it's much exaggerated.
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Offline AMM

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2009, 04:17:21 PM »
Quote
Ukrainian Orthodox - Kyiv Patriarchate 50.4%
Ukrainian Orthodox - Moscow Patriarchate 26.1%
Ukrainian Greek Catholic 8%
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox 7.2%

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/up.html

Offline Starlight

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2009, 11:19:44 PM »
Thanks! So this parish no longers belongs to UOC of Diaspora? Or was it simply moved to another place?


This the major Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral of London. It is located in a suburb called Acton. When Bishop Andrij served as a ruling Hierarch of the Diocese of Western Europe, this parish had a status of his major Cathedral. Now Bishop Andrij took over responsibilities of the Bishop of Sascatoon and the Auxiliary Hierarch of Central Diocese of UOCC.
The only one Orthodox monastery outside Ukraine, which has the vast majority of services (possibly even all) in Ukrainian:
http://www.monasterujkowice.pl/
Location - Ujkowice, Poland. Surely the monastery belongs to Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church.

Unfortunately I've never been there but I was told by many people that they use Church Slavonic with Ukrainian accent not plain Ukrainian. In Poland there is one parish which might use Ukrainian. I'll ask for details.



I have also heard that a few parishes in the Dioceses of Przemysł and Lublin conduct at least some services in Ukrainian. We have a number of clergy in UOC-USA, who were ordained in Poland, including for example, Fr. Mitred Protopriest Yurij Siwko, the Pastor of St. Andrew Memorial Church, in Bound Brook, NJ, the center of our Diocese. They all contribute a lot indeed.

edit:
What do you think about UOC priests conducting Services in Portugal and Spain?

Yes, I have read about it. I believe it was an excellent idea. And those priests, who were assigned for those trips, are best from the best.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 11:22:27 PM by Starlight »

Offline mike

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2009, 04:08:03 PM »
In Poland Services in Ukrainian are hold in one Parish in Lublin, one in Wrocław and some in Przemyśl-Nowy Sącz Diocese (but I'm not sure about them).
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Offline Starlight

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2009, 10:51:33 PM »
In Poland Services in Ukrainian are hold in one Parish in Lublin, one in Wrocław and some in Przemyśl-Nowy Sącz Diocese (but I'm not sure about them).

Thank you very much for information. I appreciate this.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2009, 11:28:49 PM »
Does any now any current statistics about current division of EOs in Ukraine? The ratio between these three Churches?

I've read somewhere that UOC covers about 70% of people in Ukraine. But according to your posts it's much exaggerated.

Ukrainian Church Statistics for 2006
 

Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate): ..... 10,875 parishes..... 9,072 clergy.
 
Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kievan Patriarchate: .........  3,721 ................. 2,816 
 
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church: ...............  1,166 .................. 686
 

These statistics come from the Catholic source CNEWA which is always rather accurate with its figures.
 
http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=50&IndexView=toc

I have read that 75% of Ukrainian Orthodox are members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate.)   That would indicate that people are voting with their feet and their Church of choice is the canonical Church. 

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2009, 11:35:19 PM »
Does any now any current statistics about current division of EOs in Ukraine? The ratio between these three Churches?

I've read somewhere that UOC covers about 70% of people in Ukraine. But according to your posts it's much exaggerated.

Ukrainian Church Statistics for 2005
 

Here are the stats on risu.org.ua.  They are very similar to the ones above.

   http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/resources/statistics/org2005/
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 11:36:38 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Starlight

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2009, 11:50:30 PM »
Does any now any current statistics about current division of EOs in Ukraine? The ratio between these three Churches?

I've read somewhere that UOC covers about 70% of people in Ukraine. But according to your posts it's much exaggerated.

Ukrainian Church Statistics for 2006
 

Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate): ..... 10,875 parishes..... 9,072 clergy.
 
Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kievan Patriarchate: .........  3,721 ................. 2,816 
 
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church: ...............  1,166 .................. 686
 

These statistics come from the Catholic source CNEWA which is always rather accurate with its figures.
 
http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=50&IndexView=toc

I have read that 75% of Ukrainian Orthodox are members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate.)   That would indicate that people are voting with their feet and their Church of choice is the canonical Church. 

It all depends whom you will ask.

According to the official statistics of UOC-KP. Not available in English:
http://www.cerkva.info/static/church_today.html

Brief summary in English: around (40) Hierarchs, over (4,000) parishes.

The same source lists results of sociological studies, which state that UOC-KP has support of over 10 mil. people and UOC-MP of approximately. In December 2006 in Kyiv, 52% of respondents attached themselves to UOC-KP and only 8% to UOC-MP. The entities performing studies have not been named.

So, in terms of numbers of parishes, it should be more or less accurate. When it comes to people's sympathies, everyone has their own statistics there.

Having said that, I am not a member / communicant of UOC-KP. I do not have any illusions about this organization. Considering jurisdictions, currently existing in Ukraine, my sympathies go to Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2009, 01:01:09 AM »
It all depends whom you will ask.

That is why I chose two non-Orthodox neutral sources- CNEWA which has a good reputation for accurate statistics, and RISU.ORG

Offline Starlight

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2009, 01:39:29 AM »
Correction of the typo:

The same source lists results of sociological studies, which state that UOC-KP has support of over 10 mil. people and UOC-MP of approximately


SHOULD SAY:

The same source lists results of sociological studies, which state that UOC-KP has support of over 10 mil. people and UOC-MP of approximately 5 mil.

END OF CITATION.

The number of parishes does not necessarily reflect views of people. As a matter of fact, many faithful of UOC-MP support the idea of a united autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine. The tendency is growing. Another tendency which is growing - the moderate circles within UOC-KP gain more strength.

Here in USA I have seen immigrants, who belong to different Orthodox groups in Ukraine, attending UOC-USA parishes, partaking Communion together and even working together in the parish boards.

Yes, UOC-KP took few parishes of UOC-USA into schism, violating all relevant canons. (1) parish, in Rochester, NY, returned several years ago. Another parish in Clifton, NJ, where I have some very good friends kept the majority of parishioners, but the building and other property were stolen / taken over by UOC-KP much smaller group of supporters.

His Holiness Patriarch Kirill (Gundyayev) really has a historic chance, deliberately ignored by his predecessor Patriarch Alexiy (Rediger). This is an opportunity to fulfill aspirations of millions of Ukrainian Orthodox faithful and to recognize autocephaly in Ukraine. 


Offline Irish Hermit

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Moscow re-baptizing UOC-KP members?
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2009, 02:04:39 AM »
Dear Starlight and Ukiemeister and other Ukrainians,

Do you give any credence to the risu.org report that Moscow is now re-baptizing members of the UOC-KP?

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;27616/

The complaint comes from the highest level - the Patriarch and Synod of the UOC-KP.

Offline Starlight

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2009, 02:22:56 AM »
I am not sure, how common the practice is. Catholics, for example, are not re-baptized in Ukraine by any Orthodox. However, I am aware of such cases with UOC-KP baptisms. I have peronally heard an Archimandrite of UOC-MP answering the question and telling that if a child has been baptized in UOC-KP, she or he has to be re-baptized. Someone else, who has been baptized as an adult in UOC-KP, shortly after this recieved another baptism in UOC-MP, later graduated from the seminary, received an ordination in UOC-MP and serves as a priest now. I know him for over (10) years. In order to be objective, I have to say that he is very nice personally and at least now, I would certainly not describe him as a hater of UOC-KP. His views towards UAOC are respectful. His views towards UOC-USA and UOCC are very sympathetic.

If you would like to know my personal opinion, I am absolutely against any re-baptisms of Christians, let alone re-baptisms of Orthodox. Some groups, which claim to be Orthodox are not canonical. Ordinations are a separate story (also clergy may be accepted, but it is a separate story). But the baptism in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit can be only the baptism in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

If UOC-MP will accept baptisms and weddings, performed in UOC-KP, a huge barrier on the way to unity will be removed.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 02:53:41 AM by Starlight »

Offline Jake

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Re: Moscow re-baptizing UOC-KP members?
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2009, 12:08:55 PM »
Dear Starlight and Ukiemeister and other Ukrainians,

Do you give any credence to the risu.org report that Moscow is now re-baptizing members of the UOC-KP?

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;27616/

The complaint comes from the highest level - the Patriarch and Synod of the UOC-KP.

What a coincidence!  I was at the "Sunday of Orthodoxy Vespers" last night at the Russian Orthodox Church and we were discussing this at the dinner afterwards.  The consensus among both us Ukrainians and Russians seems to be that it is a propaganda ploy by the KP.  Just trying to get attention.

There is no documented evidence that the Russians are re-baptising people.  It is not their practise.  One of our new Ukrainian priests in the city in our church is a former KP priest from Ukraine and he was not aware of it.  Also none of our relatives in Ukraine have mentioned it.  There are a few former MP priests in Canada now in the OCA and they also said it was not their practise to re-baptise when in Ukraine.

Another topic of discussion was the fact that usually with the sacraments, politics are put aside.  The example discussed was that in the early days in Toronto (pre-WW1), the Bulgarians did not deny the sacraments to Macedonians who claimed to be Macedonians and not Bulgarians.  Baptisms, weddings, funerals still took place.
There was a functioning Bulgarian Orthodox priest and parish from the early days that served all Slavs.

Offline Starlight

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Re: Moscow re-baptizing UOC-KP members?
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2009, 09:12:25 PM »
What a coincidence!  I was at the "Sunday of Orthodoxy Vespers" last night at the Russian Orthodox Church and we were discussing this at the dinner afterwards.  The consensus among both us Ukrainians and Russians seems to be that it is a propaganda ploy by the KP.  Just trying to get attention.

There is no documented evidence that the Russians are baptising people.  It is not their practise.  One of our new Ukrainian priests in the city in our church is a former KP priest from Ukraine and he was not aware of it.  Also none of our relatives in Ukraine have mentioned it.  There are a few former MP priests in Canada now in the OCA and they also said it was not their practise to baptise when in Ukraine.

Another topic of discussion was the fact that usually with the sacraments, politics are put aside.  The example discussed was that in the early days in Toronto (pre-WW1), the Bulgarians did not deny the sacraments to Macedonians who claimed to be Macedonians and not Bulgarians.  Baptisms, weddings, funerals still took place.
There was a functioning Bulgarian Orthodox priest and parish from the early days that served all Slavs.

Thank you for your input, Jake. Now it seems that the common strategy of UOC-MP is to avoid re-baptisms. If so, if would be only the reason to rejoice and to see one of the barriers to unity being moved away. Thank you!

As for Mr. Filaret Denysenko, he is well known attention seeker. Without his problematic behavior, it could be reasonable to say that the canonical and well-recognized autocephaly would be a reality now. A Ukrainophobe totalitarian fraction of UOC-MP, led by Metropolitan Agathangel does not have to many followers.

On a brighter note, if you would consider the future of UOC-KP, if Metropolitan Andriy (Horak) or Metropolitan Dmitry (Rudiuk) will succeed Mr. Denysenko, the chances for unity of Orthodoxy in Ukraine and canonical autocephaly will increase exponentially. As for Metropolitan Adrian (Staryna) as a potential successor, I would need to have more information it order to say something.

And unity will provide a perfect opportunity to purge poisoning individuals, such as Metropolitan Agathangel (Savin), Protopriest Andriy Novikov, etc. That applies to all curent jurisdictions in the country.

Offline Starlight

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2009, 02:24:25 AM »
Another parish in Clifton, NJ, where I have some very good friends kept the majority of parishioners, but the building and other property were stolen / taken over by UOC-KP much smaller group of supporters.


A little bit more details.

My friends in this parish stayed with UOC of USA, of course. The majority of parishioners remained in the Church, but not in their beloved church building, now occupied by UOC-KP group. The UOC-KP's "pastor", Mr. Oleh Zhovnirovich used to be an Orthodox priest in UOC-MP in Ukraine, being ordained in 1989. Of course, as everyone else, he gave an oath of a priest at the time of ordination, etc. Then he apostatized, left Orthodoxy, joined clergy of Ukrainian Catholic Church, moved to USA, got defrocked in Ukrainian Catholic Church of USA and came to Mr. Filaret Denysenko. As the result, he very quickly received several awards with the rank of the Protopresbyter of UOC-KP being the highest one.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 05:06:14 PM by username! »

Offline Starlight

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Re: Moscow re-baptizing UOC-KP members?
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2009, 02:53:53 PM »

Dear Starlight and Ukiemeister and other Ukrainians,

Do you give any credence to the risu.org report that Moscow is now re-baptizing members of the UOC-KP?

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;27616/

The complaint comes from the highest level - the Patriarch and Synod of the UOC-KP.

Update:

Here is the statement from Fr. Mitred Protopriest George Kovalenko, Press-Secretary for the Primate of the UOC-MP:
http://orthodox.org.ua/eng/node/598

Offline rwprof

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2009, 04:20:27 PM »
But... the Ukraine except Galicia (Polish before WWII) and Transcarpathia (Slovak before WWII) is Russian.

It's Ukraine, not "the Ukraine." It used to be "the Ukraine" when it was a province of Russia (a.k.a. the USSR). Now, we are a country, like Germany (not "the Germany"), Poland (not "the Poland"), India (not "the India"), etc.

Sorry for the lecture, but I principally object against English-speaking people calling my country "the Ukraine" because I consider is demeaning, belittling her.



I'm happy to comply, but I think you are attributing motives that do not exist. If there is an English speaker who uses "The Ukraine" as a pejorative, I have not met or heard of him. And note that a number of nations in English take a definite article. You're assuming a non-existent motive to what is only common usage.



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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2009, 04:38:03 PM »
But... the Ukraine except Galicia (Polish before WWII) and Transcarpathia (Slovak before WWII) is Russian.

It's Ukraine, not "the Ukraine." It used to be "the Ukraine" when it was a province of Russia (a.k.a. the USSR). Now, we are a country, like Germany (not "the Germany"), Poland (not "the Poland"), India (not "the India"), etc.

Sorry for the lecture, but I principally object against English-speaking people calling my country "the Ukraine" because I consider is demeaning, belittling her.



I'm happy to comply, but I think you are attributing motives that do not exist. If there is an English speaker who uses "The Ukraine" as a pejorative, I have not met or heard of him. And note that a number of nations in English take a definite article. You're assuming a non-existent motive to what is only common usage.


OK, but in what cases do the English-speaking people use the definite article when they talk about nations?

The Netherlands - because historically, it has been a federation of provinces.

The United Kingdom - again, because it it a union of the former kingdoms of England and Scotland, plus the principalities of Wales and Northern Ireland.

The Russian Federation - again, a federation, consisting of many constituent parts.

When a unitarian, non-federative state is mentioned, it is named without the use of the definitive article: Poland, Germany, Portugal, Brazil, France (even though it is "La France" in French).

Now, provinces, constituent parts of a country - that's a different story, their names are used with the definite article: the Azur Coast, the Lake District, the Pirenees, the Crimean peninsula, the Donbass, etc.

Ukraine used to be a province, now it is a country, and a unitarian (non-federative) country at that.

We, Ukrainians, want it to be a bona fide country and not a province, and that's exactly the reason why we want English speakers to respect our wish and to call it "Ukraine" instead of "the Ukraine." Why is this so hard? Why is this feels like too much to ask?
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2009, 05:29:39 PM »
We, Ukrainians, want it to be a bona fide country and not a province, and that's exactly the reason why we want English speakers to respect our wish and to call it "Ukraine" instead of "the Ukraine." Why is this so hard? Why is this feels like too much to ask?

But you've already won the battle.  AFAIK all major media outlets around the Anglophone world use "Ukraine" and not "the Ukraine".  Googling "Ukraine" vs. "the Ukraine" returns far more hits for the former.  I honestly don't think I've ever encountered anyone under 30 who has said "the Ukraine".  Still, these transitions take time to become universal.  I often heard people refer to the area immediately in front of Moscow Sate University as "Lenin hills" rather than "Sparrow hills" - I would guess that is because they grew up with the name Lenin Hills rather than a political statement about reconstituting the USSR.  In the same way, I could picture someone of my parents generation saying "the Ukraine" simply because they remember hearing it that way growing up and not have the slightest bit of malice towards the Ukrainian people or their country.  To go on a witch hunt over a linguistic expression that is clearly in the decline and to assume malicious motives when more often than not a simple mistake due to age is being made looks like insecurity more than anything else.   

Offline Michał

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2009, 07:21:04 PM »
In Poland Services in Ukrainian are hold in one Parish in Lublin, one in Wrocław and some in Przemyśl-Nowy Sącz Diocese (but I'm not sure about them).
Actually, as far as I know, these services are held in Church Slavonic but with Ukrainian pronunciation. Readings and sermons during them are in Ukrainian.

Offline AMM

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2009, 08:37:45 AM »
UOC-KP Calls UAOC Hierarchy to Unification

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;28092/

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2009, 08:47:39 AM »
Another parish in Clifton, NJ, where I have some very good friends kept the majority of parishioners, but the building and other property were stolen / taken over by UOC-KP much smaller group of supporters.


A little bit more details.

My friends in this parish stayed with UOC of USA, of course. The majority of parishioners remained in the Church, but not in their beloved church building, now occupied by UOC-KP group. The UOC-KP's "pastor", Mr. Oleh Zhovnirovich used to be an Orthodox priest in UOC-MP in Ukraine, being ordained in 1989. Of course, as everyone else, he gave an oath of a priest at the time of ordination, etc. Then he apostatized, left Orthodoxy, joined clergy of Ukrainian Catholic Church, moved to USA, got defrocked in Ukrainian Catholic Church of USA and came to Mr. Filaret Denysenko. As the result, he very quickly received several awards with the rank of the Protopresbyter of UOC-KP being the highest one.

To be fair, they have their side of the story, which have a few more details than the bald claim that they "stole" the church:
Quote
Summary:

Following the death of Patriarch Mstyslav in 1993, Archbishop Antony [an Archbishop within the UOC-USA] was a candidate at the “Sobor” [conclave] of the Mother Church in Kyiv, Ukraine, to succeed him as Patriarch of the UOC-Ukraine. Archbishop Antony subsequently was unsuccessful in his candidacy, and shortly thereafter, together with his followers within the UOC-USA, clandestinely entered into contracts, and understandings with the Greek Patriarchate Church of Constantinople (Istanbul, Turkey). Archbishop Antony and his followers eventually became hierarchs of the Greek Patriarchate Church and assumed Greek Bishop Titles.  The Greek Orthodox Church in Istanbul now claims that the UOC-USA is under its jurisdiction and that the diocese is no longer Autocephalous [i.e. independent] and all parish properties belong to the bishops.

Because Ukrainian Orthodox Holy Ascension members did not follow Archbishop Antony to the Greek Patriarchate in Istanbul, Archbishop Antony initiated a series of litigations against the Ukrainian Orthodox Holy Ascension Church in Clifton, NJ. Although the Supreme Court of New Jersey eventually sided with the parishioners of Holy Ascension against the Consistory of the UOC-USA, in 2007, the Consistory of the UOC-USA filed a fresh suit against the Church of the Holy Ascension which was dismissed with prejudice by the Superior Court of New Jersey in June 2008. Shortly thereafter, the UOC-USA filed an appeal, which is currently pending. Below is a statement of facts submitted by members of Holy Ascension to the Superior Court of New Jersey.

The Archbishop has waged a war of attrition against Holy Ascension for over a decade through intimidation, imported surrogates and the courts. Despite the boasting by Metropolitan Constantine that “we will bankrupt them”, the result is a flourishing, stronger and more vibrant parish, faithful to the church of Patriarch Mstyslav I and his successors.

 
What has the Archbishop achieved during this period since lying and betraying Patriarch Volodymyr, as well as the Ukrainian community at large? The UOC-USA is deep in debt and exploring the sale of churches such as Holy Trinity in Irvington, NJ to cover its dwindling income and unbridled spending. The once over a hundred parishes are disappearing at an alarming pace. Oh yes, the Archbishop has pursued remedies in civil courts – at no cost!?!

 
And in Ukraine? The lie was “canonical” recognition. Well, the UOC-USA bishops jumped ship and became Greeks. The faction that they took under their wing, the Autocephalous Church, was eventually left dangling and fractured into three camps. The situation is so bad that Bishop Daniel complained that on his last trip to Ukraine no one would deal with him other than Archbishop Isiachenko who has been shunned by UOAC and oversees a mere dozen or so parishes in Kharkiv region. UOC-USA is de-facto persona-non-grata!

 
Perhaps it is high time for the UOC-USA bishops to reconsider their mission and return to their spiritual agenda. Disdain persecution. Heal, unite and honor the legacy of your mentor, Patriarch Mstyslav. Enough is enough!!!
http://cliftonorthodoxcathedral.org/saveouruoc.html

Since the Charter under which the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-USA operates explicitely states "The Archdiocese receives within its ranks and under its spiritual aegis and pastoral care Orthodox Christians, who either as individuals or as organized groups in Dioceses and Parishes have voluntarily come to it and which acknowledge the supreme spiritual, ecclesiastical and canonical jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate," litigation would seem to ipso facto indicated a lack of voluntary acknowledgement.
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Offline mike

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2009, 11:49:15 AM »
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2009, 12:01:41 PM »
And what about them?

http://www.soborna.org/news/en/2009/

Some interesting things there:
Quote
Signs on the Divine presence at Church which heads Patriarch Moses.

Quote
5.05.2009
MISSION OF SOBORNA - UNIVERSAL CHURCH ON THE BLACK SEA COAST:
HAPPINESS OF UNITY
 

Quote
Moisey / Moses     
    Patriarch of Kyiv and All Rus'-Ukraine Universal Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Canonical

I guess Universal in Ukraine, or maybe just his "universe."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2009, 12:23:38 PM »
No idea. My father, who is a journalist, made an interview with this Patriarch Moses and even still owns his business card :)

I'm wondering are they important or is it just a 10-Hierarchs-and-their-close-relatives kind of jurisdiction.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 12:23:58 PM by mike »
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2009, 12:57:46 PM »
No idea. My father, who is a journalist, made an interview with this Patriarch Moses and even still owns his business card :)

I'm wondering are they important or is it just a 10-Hierarchs-and-their-close-relatives kind of jurisdiction.

I don't know either. The only thing I understood from their site and from the Wikipedia article on UAOC is that the Patriarch Moses of the so-called "UAOC-Canonical" (or, in Ukrainian, "Ukrayins'ka Avtokefal'na Pravoslavna Sobornopravna Tserkva") was "enthroned in the St. Sophia Cathedral in Kyiv" a few years ago. St. Sophia is actually a state-owned museum, not a real cathedral. It could have been a very private ceremony...  But I do not even understand what parishes, if any, do they have in my native city, Kyiv. It actually CAN be a "10-hierarchs-and-their-close-relatives kind of jurisdiction" for all I know.
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2009, 12:33:44 AM »
Some data on this schismatic Moisey (Kulick) from other threads:


Some News!

Oleh Kulyk (Patriarch Moisey) of the UAOC-C, a small faction of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church, was excommunicated by his former Synod this week, for supporting heretical beliefs and performing sacrilegous ordinations:


http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;7532/

Oleh Kulyk, a former priest of the UOC-USA left that Church when it became a part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. After that he started contacts with the autocephalists in Ukraine and eventualy founded his own small Church, the UAOC-C, of which he declared himself Patriarch.

Some months after his elevation, most of his Bishops left him to form the Ukrainian Autonomous Orthodox Church in America under Archbishop Ioan of the USA.

Moisey had been criticized for receiving several episcopi-vagantes with doubtful Apostolic Succession abroad, and profesing liberal doctrines on the Eucharist, veneration of relics and re-incarnation.

The UAOC-C no longer has bishops in Ukraine.



In any case, current hierarchs of UAOC-Sobornopravna are not listed in the official page of UAOC (http://www.uaoc.info/ua/hierarchy/), while Bishop Bohdan went from UAOC-Sobornopravna to UAOC.
Historically, UAOC-Sobornopravna even concentrated Moisey (Moses) Kulik as Metropolitan of their parishes in Ukraine. Later Moisey lied about being authorized by the EP and then created a new schismatic group, renamed it several times and then declared himself a Patriarch. Moisey preaches reincarnation and claims that Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary visit him on daily basis and provided instruction. Apostasy from Orthodoxy seems obvious. His group is small.



As well as this topic includes a lot of information:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15447.0.html


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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2009, 02:42:23 AM »
Thank you very much!
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2009, 05:32:36 AM »
Who on Earth are they?
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2009, 05:56:12 PM »
Oh my!  Oleh Kulik was pastor at my church, ages ago. A VERY unusual individual.  As an Orthodox I should not judge...but, I advise folks to stay away from him.

On his web page he even takes credit for initiating our Ukrainian school, which had been established years before his arrival.

During our bible study classes he would ask us to close our eyes and concentrate on his voice...Then he would walk around the circle with hands almost touching each person and ask who could feel him.  It was the closest I ever came to allowing myself to get hypnotized.  Stupid me, completely trusted my priest.  Before I knew it I was almost entranced.  It took a huge effort on my part to break free and open my eyes.  Absolutely terrified me!
He would also talk of things of a more superstitious than Christian nature. 

Beware of him.

I don't know what he is, but, he's not Orthodox.

I credit the Bishops of UOCofUSA for asking him to leave.


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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2010, 09:12:21 AM »
Does any now any current statistics about current division of EOs in Ukraine? The ratio between these three Churches?

I've read somewhere that UOC covers about 70% of people in Ukraine. But according to your posts it's much exaggerated.

Ukrainian Church Statistics for 2006
 

Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate): ..... 10,875 parishes..... 9,072 clergy.
 
Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kievan Patriarchate: .........  3,721 ................. 2,816 
 
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church: ...............  1,166 .................. 686
 

These statistics come from the Catholic source CNEWA which is always rather accurate with its figures.
 
http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=50&IndexView=toc

I have read that 75% of Ukrainian Orthodox are members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate.)   That would indicate that people are voting with their feet and their Church of choice is the canonical Church. 

Found a graph!   :)