Author Topic: Relations between Ukrainian Churches  (Read 15054 times)

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Offline mike

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Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« on: February 06, 2009, 11:43:14 AM »
I was wondering how are related UOC of USA, UOCC and UOC of Diaspora. It appeared to me that UOC of USA and UOC of Diaspora are one structure under metropolitan Constantine and UOCC is independent (with metropolitan John as its primate). Both of them are under the omophorion of Constantinople. 

But on UOC of USA's site bishops of UOC of Diaspora are not listed - this would mean that it's not the same. Oddly these two or three Churches extended the Nativity Epistle together and this would mean that they're very close to each other. Could someone explain me this?

I'm also interested about their relations with Churches in Ukraine. How do they cooperate with UOC MP?

I've also found a link to the website of 'Kyivian Patriarchate' on site of UOCC. Do they pull together? Do they also have any relations with 'UAOC'?

« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:45:48 AM by mike »
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2009, 02:02:29 PM »
Mike, what is UOCC? Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada?

About the relationships between UOC-USA and the jurisdictions in Ukraine: to my knowledge, and please correct me if I am wrong, there is no mutual interest between the UOC-USA and the UOC (MP). When my family and I lived in Seattle in 1991-98, we used to visit a UOC-USA parish, and the priest there did not even mention the UOC (MP) (or the UOC(KP) or the UAOC for that matter) in his prayers. The parishioners, mostly old Ukrainian immigrants of the 1940-s, had an extremely low opinion about UOC (MP), saying that these people simply aren't Ukrainian, they are all "moskali." I don't know, maybe it's changed since then, but I doubt it.

The presence of UOC (MP) in the USA seems nonexistent, and the presence of the UOC (KP) is amazingly subtle. Living in Mississippi, I deliberately searched for the nearest to me UOC(KP) parish, and to my bewildrement it turned out that the closest is in Southern Florida (!!!), and even there, the priest is not Ukrainian and does not even know the Ukrainian language (?????????????).
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 02:02:58 PM by Heorhij »
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 05:07:24 PM »
In terms of the UOCC, the Metropolitan has blessed Ukrainian language texts by the UOCKP for use in the Church.

http://www.uocc.ca/pdf/documents/Blessing%20of%20Books.PDF

http://www.uocc.ca/pdf/documents/Position%20UOCC%20and%20OCU.pdf
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 07:08:01 PM by Ukiemeister »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 09:58:34 PM »
Both the UOC-USA and the UOC-Canada are largely former or the descendents of former Ukrainian Greek Catholics from Western Ukraine.  It  should be no surprise there is small affection from them for the russophile UOC-MP.
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 10:11:27 PM »
In terms of the UOCC, the Metropolitan has blessed Ukrainian language texts by the UOCKP for use in the Church.

http://www.uocc.ca/pdf/documents/Blessing%20of%20Books.PDF

http://www.uocc.ca/pdf/documents/Position%20UOCC%20and%20OCU.pdf


The links do not appear to be working for me kind sir :)

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 10:21:10 PM »
In terms of the UOCC, the Metropolitan has blessed Ukrainian language texts by the UOCKP for use in the Church.

http://www.uocc.ca/pdf/documents/Blessing%20of%20Books.PDF

http://www.uocc.ca/pdf/documents/Position%20UOCC%20and%20OCU.pdf


The links do not appear to be working for me kind sir :)

They seem to be working fine for me, but were a tad slow.
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 10:26:10 PM »
In terms of the UOCC, the Metropolitan has blessed Ukrainian language texts by the UOCKP for use in the Church.

http://www.uocc.ca/pdf/documents/Blessing%20of%20Books.PDF

http://www.uocc.ca/pdf/documents/Position%20UOCC%20and%20OCU.pdf


The links do not appear to be working for me kind sir :)

They seem to be working fine for me, but were a tad slow.

interestingly enough they wouldn't open with firefox but would with internet exploder, err, Explorer.

Offline John of the North

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 10:35:26 PM »
I would have just copied the relevant text, but Acrobat wouldn't let me.
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 10:37:09 PM »
I would have just copied the relevant text, but Acrobat wouldn't let me.

*shakes fist at Acrobat*

Offline Orest

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 11:49:22 PM »
Quote
Both the UOC-USA and the UOC-Canada are largely former or the descendents of former Ukrainian Greek Catholics from Western Ukraine.  It  should be no surprise there is small affection from them for the russophile UOC-MP.

What the Catholic Deacon Lance has written is not true.  I am a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.  My family has been in Canada for over 100 years and our family has always been Orthodox both in Ukraine and in Canada.

When our church was first formed in Canada, the iniatiation came from a group of former Ukrainian-Catholic school teachers and intellectuals from Galicia who wanted to return to their Orthodox roots.

However, after the church was organised, local congregations of Orthodox believers from Bukovyna joined the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  In the inter-war period there was further immigration from both Orthodox Volnynia and Orthodox Bukovyna.  After World War, 2 there was a significant immigration of clergy including Metropolitan Hilarion Ohienko from Volynia.  Also adding to the numbers of non-Galician members were people from Eastern Ukraine.  Our previous Metropolitan Wasyly was 2 years old when his family emigrated from Bukovyna and our current Metropolitan John is the son of pioneer immigrants from Bukovyna.

Thus, it is totally wrong to claim as the Catholic Deacon Lance does above,   that  our church is made up of "largely former or the descendents of former Ukrainian Greek Catholics from Western Ukraine."

I also doubt that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA is largely made of the descendents of Ukrianian Catholics as well.  Most of the pre-WW1 immigrants who became Orthodox joined the OCA.  The post WW2 immigration to the USA from Eastern Ukraine and Volynia were the significant contributers.

As for our liturgical books, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada has always produced its own liturgical books.  The late Metropolitan Hilarion was responsible for much of the editing.  Recently, the UOCC issued a new edition the Ukrainnian language prayerbook for laity called "Dobryy Pastor" with corrections and some new translations of certain items.  We do not use the liturgical books of the church in Ukraine.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:51:57 PM by Orest »

Offline Heorhij

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2009, 10:19:59 AM »
Orest, I also have noticed, when living in Seattle, that not all parishioners in the UOC-USA parish were from Western Ukraine. For example, one of their most respected older members was from Pryashov (Eastern Slovalia), but his wife was from Kharkiv (Eastern Ukraine). There were couples from Kyiv, Dnipropetrovs'k, and other non-Galician Ukrainian cities and towns ("z Velykoji Ukrayiny"). Yet, Deacon Lance has a point in that a very significant part of that parish and perhaps other UOC-USA parishes was formed by the "Zapandentsi," the descendants of those who lived in the Volyn', the Halychyna, and the Carpathian Mountains. Whether their parents and grandparents used to be Greek Catholics, I do not know; perhaps some were, some weren't.

May I ask you, is there any communication, any, betwen your parish and any Ukrainian Orthodox parish in Ukraine (canonical or non-(yet?)-canonical? If yes, could you elaborate? If no, do you know of any other UOCC parishes that do have such communication?

Thank you! This same question is also addressed to other Ukrainians who live outside of Ukraine (pani Liza, pan Starlight, pan Username and others).
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Offline mike

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2009, 10:29:36 AM »
May I ask you, is there any communication, any, betwen your parish and any Ukrainian Orthodox parish in Ukraine (canonical or non-(yet?)-canonical? If yes, could you elaborate? If no, do you know of any other UOCC parishes that do have such communication?

Thank you! This same question is also addressed to other Ukrainians who live outside of Ukraine (pani Liza, pan Starlight, pan Username and others).

same asks me :)

And also I'd like someone posted something about relations between three Constantinopolian (now idea how it's spelled in your language :)) Ukrainian Churches.

Thanks for the things you've already posted.
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 03:15:16 PM »
May I ask you, is there any communication, any, betwen your parish and any Ukrainian Orthodox parish in Ukraine (canonical or non-(yet?)-canonical? If yes, could you elaborate? If no, do you know of any other UOCC parishes that do have such communication?

Thank you! This same question is also addressed to other Ukrainians who live outside of Ukraine (pani Liza, pan Starlight, pan Username and others).

same asks me :)

And also I'd like someone posted something about relations between three Constantinopolian (now idea how it's spelled in your language :)) Ukrainian Churches.

Thanks for the things you've already posted.

There are several jurisdictions in the USA that are part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2009, 03:20:27 PM »
But Greeks and ACROD's had their own Nativity epistles and Ukrainians have one together. So this would mean that they're not as separated as they seem to be. And what about Church in Diaspora which existences only on the signature on the letter?

I used to think that there's one Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA and Diaspora but it seems that they are not the same.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 03:21:01 PM by mike »
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Offline Orest

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2009, 05:35:12 PM »
Quote
Orest, I also have noticed, when living in Seattle, that not all parishioners in the UOC-USA parish were from Western Ukraine. For example, one of their most respected older members was from Pryashov (Eastern Slovalia), but his wife was from Kharkiv (Eastern Ukraine). There were couples from Kyiv, Dnipropetrovs'k, and other non-Galician Ukrainian cities and towns ("z Velykoji Ukrayiny"). Yet, Deacon Lance has a point in that a very significant part of that parish and perhaps other UOC-USA parishes was formed by the "Zapandentsi," the descendants of those who lived in the Volyn', the Halychyna, and the Carpathian Mountains. Whether their parents and grandparents used to be Greek Catholics, I do not know; perhaps some were, some weren't.

Sorry for my late reply.  I moved back home from Ontario and now living in a rural area with limited internet connections.
I think we are using different terminology.  It is interesting that you would include Volynia as part of the "Zapandentsi".  We don't in Canada. And there has always been so much hostility between the Bukovynsti and Galicians that we dont include them in one group under the umbrella of  "Zapandentsi".  These regionalisms in Canada have always been significant.

 Secondly, Bukovyna is in the Carpathians and has always been Orthodox.
Of course the Galician part of the Carpathians and Transcarpathian area was Ukrianian Cathoilc.  My point is that one cannot equate the term "Carpathian Ukrainians" with Ukrainian Catholicism.  After the Edict of Toleration of 1865 in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, former Ukrainian-Catholics in Galicia and in the Transcarpathian area were free to return to the Orthodox Church.  There were villages, parishes and individuals who did so.  I am not suggesting that this movement was large but it did exist.  All you have to do is look at the census materials.

 I was the one who said that the majority of Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada is not presently made up of the descendents of Galician Ukrainian Catholics.  I am sick and tired of Ukrainian Catholics saying this because it is not true.

Regardng your comments about Seattle,  please note that Volynia during the first wave of immigration was part of the Russian Empire and also that Volynia is historically Orthodox just like Bukovyna.  Also there were Ukrainian Orthodox from Bukovyna who moved to Seattle from Vancouver Canada.  The Seattle area has a regionally diverse Ukrainian population.

Quote
May I ask you, is there any communication, any, betwen your parish and any Ukrainian Orthodox parish in Ukraine (canonical or non-(yet?)-canonical? If yes, could you elaborate? If no, do you know of any other UOCC parishes that do have such communication?

Let me answer this backwards.  The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, a canonical church under the EP is on good terms with the Kyivan Patriarchate.  For example, when Archbishop Adrian Staryna visited Canada for about 2 months in the fall of September 2007, he was welcomed by Archbishop Yurij of Eastern Canada.  The UOCC Cathedral in Toronto held a special luncheon for him after church and Archbishop Adrian spoke. Donations were presented for the church in Ukraine. There was an offocial banquet for Archbishop Adrian on his name day at a local Ukrianian hall that I think was sold out.
In addition Archbishop Adrian met with the UOCC clergy of southern Ontario.  Archbishop Adrian also spoke at our church in Hamilton, Oshawa and other cities in the area.  I have forgotten all the detail.
He also spoke at St. Vladimir Institute, a Ukrianian Orthodox residence and cultural centre at the University of Toronto and at the Ukrainian Canadian Art Gallery.  He went on a bus to Montreal and spoke at a banquest there.  Every place he spoke, money was collected for the church in Ukraine.  He went by plane to Vancouver BC, the other end of the country and spoke there.  Also he made a lengthy visit to Winnipeg, Manitoba to the headquarters of our church and met with our hierarchy and consistory members.  He also spoke at churches there.  There were articles written about in the local Toronto newspaper "New Pathway".  You can check the archives here to read the articles:
http://www.infoukes.com/newpathway/main.htm
You can also check the archives of the church newspaper "Visnyk":
www.uocc.ca
However, as others have said it is really difficult to download newspaper articles.  The site is not useer friendly.

I was living in Ontario at the time and went to hear him in person.  His talks were very moving.  For many of us it was a real eye opener to hear of the threats on his life and the violence in the inter-religious struggles in Eastern Ukraine.  He came across as a very dedicated and sincere Christian.  Unlike Patriarch. Filaret the current head of the church, there are no moral scandals associated with Archbishop Adrian.

Now as for individuals parishes in Canada, I have heard of some parishes collecting money, clothes, books to send to KP parishes in Ukraine.  I do not personally know how this is organised.  It seems to be informal
and usually starts when someone from a parish goes to Ukriane to visit relatives and then comes home and starts a collection.  Also the Women's groups in some parishes in Canada have been involved.

There is only one Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada and as I said some of our families have been here for over 100 years and we do not consider ourselves a "diaspora".  The word diaspora may imply to some that we are planning on going back to Ukraine. We are Ukrianian-Canadians.  Our church would never seek to become part of the Orthodox Church in Ukriane.

On the same line, our church has an official policy of not interfering in church life in Ukraine.  As I said we would not want clergy from Ukraine suddenly arriving in Canada trying to tell us what to do.  So we don't try to influence church life in Ukraine or side with one of the 3 Orthodox factions in Ukraine.  There is a policy statement on the church web site somewhere that outlines this.

So for example, when representatives of our church have visited Ukriane in the past, they made very sure to visit all three churches in order to prevent one faction from claiming our sole support.

There is also a recommedation passed at our last sobor of 2005 that we will pray for the unity of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine.

The history of the Ukrainnian Orthodox Church in Canada and the USA (which had a number of jurisdictions until recently) is very different.  I can explain why in another e-mail (if anyone is interested)why this has resulted in a different attitudes towards events in Orthodoxy in Ukraine.

Offline Heorhij

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2009, 05:43:35 PM »
Pane Oreste, many thanks for your detailed explanation. Very interesting and uplifting!

It is very good for me to hear that your jurisdiction is not demonizing UOC-KP. I wish them well. If I lived in Ukraine now, I would probably become a member of a UOC-KP parish. I believe they will be fully accepted into the global Orthodox family one happy day.
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2009, 05:43:53 PM »
So for example, when representatives of our church have visited Ukriane in the past, they made very sure to visit all three churches in order to prevent one faction from claiming our sole support.

Did he took the Eucharist in every of the Church?
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2009, 06:15:57 PM »
So for example, when representatives of our church have visited Ukriane in the past, they made very sure to visit all three churches in order to prevent one faction from claiming our sole support.

Did he took the Eucharist in every of the Church?

We would only be in communion with the UOCMP.
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Offline Orest

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2009, 06:26:47 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Orest on Today at 05:35:12 PM
So for example, when representatives of our church have visited Ukraine in the past, they made very sure to visit all three churches in order to prevent one faction from claiming our sole support.


Did he took the Eucharist in every of the Church?

No.  Our representatives only go in a group so there are always witnesses present.  You know how fast rumours get started and misinformation spreads!

They "visit" the offices of the churches.  If attending a church service, they attend but do not con-clebrate.  That would just cause too many problems.

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2009, 06:32:07 PM »
Concelebrating with UOC MP priest who is in full communion with your Church would cause problems?
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2009, 08:28:10 PM »
Yes, in fact it has in the past.
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Offline Orest

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2009, 08:43:50 PM »
Concelebrating with UOC MP priest who is in full communion with your Church would cause problems?

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada hierarchy when visiting Ukraine does not "concelebrate" as I stated before, but its representatives attend services.

Why? Because to concelebrate might send the wrong message that our church supports the UOC-MO.
And as I said before the UOCC takes great pains not to officially side with any of the three factions.  We are a Canadian church under the EP and do not want to interfer in Ukrainian church politics.
But we continue to pray for unity.

Offline Orest

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2009, 08:54:31 PM »


It is very good for me to hear that your jurisdiction is not demonizing UOC-KP. I wish them well. If I lived in Ukraine now, I would probably become a member of a UOC-KP parish. I believe they will be fully accepted into the global Orthodox family one happy day.

There is no point in demonizing the KP because that will only cut off the discussion.  The people who belong to it are sincere Orthodox Christians seeking their own salvation.  We are all fellow Orthodox Christians.

Is it a crime to want to pray in your own mother tonge?  I was  recently reading a book about the Orthodox Church at the end of the 19th century and before the Russian Revolution in Ukraine in the Russian Empire .  Any efforts by Ukrainian seminary students to use Ukrainian and by priests to preach in Ukrainian were thwarted.  And priests removed and seminary students expelled from school.  Yet the desire did not die.

  The Serbian Orthodox Church had similar problems of disunity and reunited.  And just look at the ROCOR and the MP.
It is only a matter of time before there is one Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine that is Ukrainian in culture and autocephalous.  And then the Ukrainnian Orthodox Church will take her place in world Orthodoxy.  Let us all pray for healing and unity.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2009, 08:55:57 PM »
Let us all pray for healing and unity.

Lord, have mercy!
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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2009, 09:03:40 PM »
before this turns into a jurisdictional politics thread let us go back and refocus on the original post.  There is still much to be answered.  thank you kindly -username! other topics moderator
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 09:15:38 PM by username! »

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2009, 09:04:46 PM »
Here is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA, Ecumenical Patriarchate website:

www.uocusa.org

Offline Orest

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2009, 09:22:15 PM »
before this turns into a jurisdictional politics thread let us go back and refocus on the original post.  There is still much to be answered.  thank you kindly -username! other topics moderator

Maybe you could do us all a favour and state as bullets/ points what remains to be answered.
Thanks.

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2009, 09:26:04 PM »
before this turns into a jurisdictional politics thread let us go back and refocus on the original post.  There is still much to be answered.  thank you kindly -username! other topics moderator

Maybe you could do us all a favour and state as bullets/ points what remains to be answered.
Thanks.

Orest, you're doing a great job!  I just don't want the thread to get into a Ukrainian church politics thread.  So far we're all learning a lot and I don't want the thread to go southward.  Thank you for the very informational posts. 
You mentioned the history of the UOC USA is different than the UOCC and offered to answer that.  I'd gladly like to hear what you have to teach us on that :) 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 09:27:53 PM by username! »

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2009, 11:43:56 PM »
Of course the UOC-MP wouldn't have parishes in North America - the Russians have ceded that land to the OCA. (But keeping a small exarchate - no longer a diocese, an important technical, political distinction - to serve and spare the feelings of the Russian parishes in America that went under Moscow after WWII).

The Ukrainian churches in America (yes, ex-Greek Catholics who switched in the 1930s) were uncanonical for years but have been under the EP for some time now.

The KP might go the way of Bulgaria for example and be admitted to the Orthodox communion one day like the Ukrainian-Americans were.

But... the Ukraine except Galicia (Polish before WWII) and Transcarpathia (Slovak before WWII) is Russian.

Most Ukrainian churchgoers are happy in the MP.

Not like the Bulgarians fighting for independence from the Turks (then, EP = Turkish rule) over 100 years ago.
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Offline Jake

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2009, 12:31:10 AM »
Of course the UOC-MP wouldn't have parishes in North America - the Russians have ceded that land to the OCA. (But keeping a small exarchate - no longer a diocese, an important technical, political distinction - to serve and spare the feelings of the Russian parishes in America that went under Moscow after WWII).

The Ukrainian churches in America (yes, ex-Greek Catholics who switched in the 1930s) were uncanonical for years but have been under the EP for some time now.

The KP might go the way of Bulgaria for example and be admitted to the Orthodox communion one day like the Ukrainian-Americans were.

But... the Ukraine except Galicia (Polish before WWII) and Transcarpathia (Slovak before WWII) is Russian.

Most Ukrainian churchgoers are happy in the MP.

Not like the Bulgarians fighting for independence from the Turks (then, EP = Turkish rule) over 100 years ago.

Too many mistakes here.

1.The MP parishes in the USA are actually thriving since the fall of communism and the start of a new 4th wave of Russian speaking immigrants to the USA.  Just check their web site or visit one of their parishes in an urban centre.

2.  In the USA there were a number of Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions started in the 1920's.  There was one jurisdiction started by a small group of former Ukrainnian Catholic priests in the early 1920's that went under the Ecumenical Patriarch very early in its history.  Many of the original founding priests actually went back to the Ukrainian Catholic Church.  This church was favored by Orthodox immigrants from the Ukrainnian Province of Volynia, which was part of Poland in the inter-war period and under the EP.  Like Orest said Volynia was and is Orthodox.
Then there were the jurisdictions founded by immigrants from Eastern Ukraine and as we know Eastern Ukraine is Orthodox.  These groups usually had autocephalous in their legal name and saw themselves as the offspring of the Lipkivsky church in Eastern Ukraine.

3.  Don't know about Ukrainians in Ukraine being "happy in the MP."  According to statisics the majority of Othodox believers are not in the MP. 

Not only are your statements wrong you are also off topic.  The topic of this thread was the relationship between the Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions outside of Ukraine.

To answer one of the original questions: there is no "Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Diaspora." There is a Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Australia, of the USA, of Canada, Britain and so on.   There is a council of Ukrainian Orthodox Bishops Beyond the Borders of Ukraine that issues epistles such as a joint Christmas Epistle or Easter Epistle and from time to time other statements.  I remember reading in the press that when questioned as to why this council exists, the response was it exists until there is one united Ukrainian Orthodox Church in a free Ukraine.  In the past under communism this council played an important role in speaking for those who could not speak for the religious rights of believers in Ukraine and spoke out to the non-Ukrainian press about the presecution of religion in Ukraine.  Metropolitan Mystyslav Skrypnyk of the UOC-USA was the brains behind this formation of this council.  I am not sure if this council plays any significant role at the moment but that is just my personal opinion.  At least it doesn't do any harm.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 12:36:35 AM by Jake »

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2009, 06:56:10 PM »
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2009, 06:58:47 PM »
Of course the UOC-MP wouldn't have parishes in North America - the Russians have ceded that land to the OCA. (But keeping a small exarchate - no longer a diocese, an important technical, political distinction - to serve and spare the feelings of the Russian parishes in America that went under Moscow after WWII).

That's debateable.
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2009, 08:14:42 PM »
The KP might go the way of Bulgaria for example and be admitted to the Orthodox communion one day like the Ukrainian-Americans were.

YES!!! That's my hope and constant prayer.

But... the Ukraine except Galicia (Polish before WWII) and Transcarpathia (Slovak before WWII) is Russian.

No.

Most Ukrainian churchgoers are happy in the MP.

No. Some are, but not "most." At least not in the UOC(MP) with its current status. A minority of high positioned hierarchs (notably the Metropolitans of Odesa, Tul'chyn and Chernivtsi, and some others) do not represent the majority.

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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2009, 08:34:06 PM »
But... the Ukraine except Galicia (Polish before WWII) and Transcarpathia (Slovak before WWII) is Russian.

It's Ukraine, not "the Ukraine." It used to be "the Ukraine" when it was a province of Russia (a.k.a. the USSR). Now, we are a country, like Germany (not "the Germany"), Poland (not "the Poland"), India (not "the India"), etc.

Sorry for the lecture, but I principally object against English-speaking people calling my country "the Ukraine" because I consider is demeaning, belittling her.

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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2009, 09:36:11 PM »
But... the Ukraine except Galicia (Polish before WWII) and Transcarpathia (Slovak before WWII) is Russian.

It's Ukraine, not "the Ukraine." It used to be "the Ukraine" when it was a province of Russia (a.k.a. the USSR). Now, we are a country, like Germany (not "the Germany"), Poland (not "the Poland"), India (not "the India"), etc.

Sorry for the lecture, but I principally object against English-speaking people calling my country "the Ukraine" because I consider is demeaning, belittling her.

Pan Heorhij, in principle I agree with you that the wishes of Ukrainians ought to be respected in how their country is referred to in the English language, but I'd also caution against assuming the motives of someone who uses a definite article before Ukraine.  To the native English ear, putting an article in front of a proper name that contains an adjective sounds much more natural than its omission and does not necessarily imply a lack of sovereignty.  For example the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, the Czech Republican.  Again, I fully believe the standard English usage should conform to the wishes of Ukrainians themselves (also for the pronunciation and spelling of the capital city), but please be patient with us native English speakers and realize that it will take some years before dropping the article sounds completely natural and that Russian imperialistic motives aren't always the cause.     


Offline Anastasios

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2009, 11:42:57 PM »
That's a tough call. I think that Ivory Coast's demand that English speakers refer to it as Cote D'Ivoire is ludicrous and arrogant for instance.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2009, 12:00:25 AM »
Like when Ireland tried to rename itself Eire mid-20th century. It didn't take.
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2009, 12:11:16 AM »
Like when Ireland tried to rename itself Eire mid-20th century. It didn't take.

I searched for "Ukraine" on google and it yielded 176,000,000 hits; "the Ukraine" yielded 2,350,000.  You tell me which one isn't taking.  My guess is that doing a similar search of any textual corpus of the last decade will yield similar results. 

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2009, 12:14:07 AM »
I'm actually cool with whatever usage English speakers agree to use amongst themselves. Ukraine is fine with me and it is actually what I use in my speech. But I am wary of attempts to change words based on some political consideration.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2009, 04:48:16 PM »

Hello all,

Sorry for replying so late in the game. 

I was lucky enough to be in Chicago this weekend for the Enthronement of His Grace Bihsop Daniel as the one of the hierarchs of the UOC of the USA.

At this fine event, were representatives of many Orthodox churches.  The UOCC (Canada) was represented by His Eminence Metropolitan John, His Eminence Bishop Ilarion, and His Eminence Archbishop Yurij.

There was a bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church who brought a congratulatory message from the EP.  The Romanian Bishop His Grace Nathaniel was there, as were many others, whom I don't know.

I was just humbled to be in the presence of so many hierarchs.  Simply no words to describe it.
Seriously…it was a very moving occasion.

As for the "Ukrainian" relations.  In Chicago there is in addition to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (of USA), a Ukrainian Orthodox Church (KP), and a Ukrainian Catholic Church from what I gathered.  There were a number of Catholic clergy present, who did NOT enter the Altar, but, were standing in a "reserved" section in the Nave.  Apparently, the priest from the Ukrainian Orthodox (KP) church was present, as well.

At the banquet after the Divine Liturgy and Enthronement ceremony, I was seated next to a very nice lady who attends the KP church.  From her I gathered that her priest was in attendance, however, she was very sad to see that nobody else was.  According to her (because I didn’t know anybody there) she was the only person from her parish who came to the Liturgy or the banquet.  To me, that would seem, they had no interest in supporting the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA.

As for my own personal experience in the Detroit area, my church has amicable relations with the Ukrainian Catholics and the Ukrainian Orthodox (KP).  We often attend the same ceremonies and support each others’  efforts (more or less) in promoting Ukraine and Ukrainian issues.

However, to be honest, my parish and the KP parish seldom mingle. 

It is a sad state of affairs.  I hope and pray that God will, in His time, bring us together as  One Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  I have seen Communism fall, by God’s hand – with no bloodshed.  This was unimaginable…and yet it happened.  So may it be with the joining of our churches.

As for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA, stemming from Catholics – I wholeheartedly disagree.  We have our Catholics and we have our Orthodox and two are separate entities.
We fight for the same Ukraine, but, we do not belong to the same “Faith”.

Peace to all.




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Offline Starlight

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2009, 01:27:57 AM »
I wish I would be able to make to Chicago last week end...

It is a sad state of affairs.  I hope and pray that God will, in His time, bring us together as  One Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  I have seen Communism fall, by God’s hand – with no bloodshed.  This was unimaginable…and yet it happened.  So may it be with the joining of our churches.

As for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA, stemming from Catholics – I wholeheartedly disagree.  We have our Catholics and we have our Orthodox and two are separate entities.
We fight for the same Ukraine, but, we do not belong to the same “Faith”.

Peace to all.



Amen.

Overall relationships between UOC-USA and UOCC always could be described as brotherly. Actually, UOC of USA and Diaspora included (3) Dioceses in USA (Pittsburgh, PA; South Bound Brook, NJ; and Chicago, IL) as well as (3) diocese in other countries:
- The Diocese of South America. An experience of a great growth lately. Parishes exist in Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil and Venezuela. Center - Curitiba, Brazil. This diocese may be split into (2).
- The Diocese of Western Europe. Also some improvements in the last couple of years. Parishes function in Belgium, France, Germany and Great Britain. Center - Genk, Belgium, previously - London, UK.
- The Diocese of Australia and New Zealand. Seems to include several parishes in Australia as well as one more in New Zealand.

Offline John of the North

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2009, 01:31:11 AM »
We also have a presence in Portugal.
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Offline Starlight

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2009, 01:51:48 AM »
We also have a presence in Portugal.

Correct. But technically these parishes belong to the Diocese of Spain and Portugal of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The aforementioned Diocese includes both Greek and Ukrainian parishes. Most of Ukrainian parishes are located in Portugal. There was an auxiliary Bishop Ilarion (Rudnick), who is now a ruling Bishop of the Diocese of Edmonton of UOCC. Metropolitan Polykarpos, the ruling Hierarch, pays a lot of attention to Ukrainian parishes. Currently, Archimandrite Philip (Jagnisz), who serves in Portugal, can be considered as candidate to become an auxiliary Bishop. Fr. Philip was born in USA, served in UOC-USA and prior to his relocation to Portugal he already was fluent in Spanish, additionally to English and Ukrainian. Probably, he advanced Portugese by now as well.

Ukiemeister, of course, I am sure that you know about your present Ruling Hierarch and Portugal much better then I do! He was very efficient in Portugal.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 01:59:15 AM by Starlight »

Offline Starlight

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2009, 02:05:12 AM »
The only one Orthodox monastery outside Ukraine, which has the vast majority of services (possibly even all) in Ukrainian:
http://www.monasterujkowice.pl/

Location - Ujkowice, Poland. Surely the monastery belongs to Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church.

St. Herman of Alaska Monastery in Cleveland, OH (UOC-USA) conducts services in English.

Offline John of the North

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Re: Relations between Ukrainian Churches
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2009, 02:09:24 AM »
We also have a presence in Portugal.

Correct. But technically these parishes belong to the Diocese of Spain and Portugal of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The aforementioned Diocese includes both Greek and Ukrainian parishes. Most of Ukrainian parishes are located in Portugal. There was an auxiliary Bishop Ilarion (Rudnick), who is now a ruling Bishop of the Diocese of Edmonton of UOCC. Metropolitan Polykarpos, the ruling Hierarch, pays a lot of attention to Ukrainian parishes. Currently, Archimandrite Philip (Jagnisz), who serves in Portugal, can be considered as candidate to become an auxiliary Bishop. Fr. Philip was born in USA, served in UOC-USA and prior to his relocation to Portugal he already was fluent in Spanish, additionally to English and Ukrainian. Probably, he advanced Portugese by now as well.

Ukiemeister, of course, I am sure that you know about your present Ruling Hierarch and Portugal much better then I do! He was very efficient in Portugal.

Hehe I love Vl. Ilarion and I talk with Fr. Phillip regularly!
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