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Author Topic: ROCOR and OCA, will they join together?  (Read 3164 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mark of Ephesus
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« on: February 05, 2009, 04:16:45 PM »

I am a member of a ROCOR Parish, and I was wondering if anyone has heard, or would care to speculate on whether the two groups will be joining together under the Moscow Patriarchate in the future.....
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2009, 04:19:48 PM »

The OCA would have to give up its autocephaly, which it has no intention to do.
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2009, 04:20:21 PM »

Given what speculation gave rise to on the most recent thread involving the EP, maybe it would be better for everyone to lay off the speculation for a bit.
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 04:22:18 PM »

Given what speculation gave rise to on the most recent thread involving the EP, maybe it would be better for everyone to lay off the speculation for a bit.

I am hoping that everyone will behave and be nice. This question is for honest information and discussion, and not to throw stones. Hopefully! Grin
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2009, 04:25:19 PM »

Why is it that everyone who starts one of these is convinced that their thread is going to be the one that is civil and rational, unlike every other one about the subject on this forum?
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2009, 04:30:34 PM »

Why is it that everyone who starts one of these is convinced that their thread is going to be the one that is civil and rational, unlike every other one about the subject on this forum?


I pray that as CHRISTIANS, especially from the same faith, we can strive for that. I will on my part. But I don't think it is right to just assume the worst.
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2009, 04:32:02 PM »

I pray that as CHRISTIANS, especially from the same faith, we can strive for that. I will on my part. But I don't think it is right to just assume the worst.

As ozgeorge will tell you, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.  Besides, the popular definition of insanity also comes to mind.
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2009, 04:32:58 PM »

It can join SCOBA at least.

BTW Mark of Ephesus: With 20 posts per day it's propably the forum record.
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Mark of Ephesus
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 04:35:03 PM »

I pray that as CHRISTIANS, especially from the same faith, we can strive for that. I will on my part. But I don't think it is right to just assume the worst.

As ozgeorge will tell you, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.  Besides, the popular definition of insanity also comes to mind.


I am a convert, and these discussions help me learn more about my faith.   (yes, even the free-for-alls!)
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2009, 04:40:31 PM »

The OCA would have to give up its autocephaly, which it has no intention to do.

And the laity would not want to go under Moscow, again.  I see better cooperation between ROCOR and the OCA.  Both can learn from each other.
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2009, 04:42:25 PM »

The OCA would have to give up its autocephaly, which it has no intention to do.

And the laity would not want to go under Moscow, again.  I see better cooperation between ROCOR and the OCA.  Both can learn from each other.


My parish and the OCA parish nearby get along well.....Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2009, 04:44:27 PM »

I pray that as CHRISTIANS, especially from the same faith, we can strive for that. I will on my part. But I don't think it is right to just assume the worst.

As ozgeorge will tell you, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.  Besides, the popular definition of insanity also comes to mind.
IOW:
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2009, 04:48:53 PM »

and your point?  Grin
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2009, 05:45:30 PM »

I am a member of a ROCOR Parish, and I was wondering if anyone has heard, or would care to speculate on whether the two groups will be joining together under the Moscow Patriarchate in the future.....
No, no.
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2009, 06:15:05 PM »

It can join SCOBA at least.

BTW Mark of Ephesus: With 20 posts per day it's propably the forum record.


Is that a good thing?
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2009, 06:52:25 PM »

It can join SCOBA at least.

BTW Mark of Ephesus: With 20 posts per day it's propably the forum record.


Is that a good thing?

Not to me.
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2009, 07:06:19 PM »

He's taking a break to get a new start, please do not refocus discussion on his person. Thanks. Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2009, 07:41:24 PM »

No.
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2009, 01:30:24 AM »

No.


What are you replying to? You didn't quote.....
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2009, 01:37:07 AM »

The OCA would have to give up its autocephaly, which it has no intention to do.

How do you figure?  The MP could just come up with a whole new thing.  Why not..they've done it before...on several occasions...hence ROCOR and the OCA...lol. 

I think that they're gona figure something out underneath the OCA.  I know that Met. Jonah has publically made it clear that he is going to be integrally involved/in charge of making sure this whole thing works out, as he understands it...i'm not going to be into it further b/c I have definite opinions about him..
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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2009, 02:00:09 AM »

What Fr Anastasios said.

Not a big deal. Today OCA priests supply (take the service on a Sunday when the pastor's away) in ROCOR churches.

I understand that in the beginning ROCOR was invited to join SCOBA.

Today why not?

I understand the agreement that made the OCA independent said Moscow wouldn't start new parishes in America.

In a sense now Moscow has many more American parishes but interestingly ROCOR and the Patriarchal Parishes exarchate (Moscow's former American diocese, renamed when the OCA became independent - to the Russians dioceses are OCA dioceses) are still run separately.

Everybody knows ROCOR is a different situation (not like 60 years ago when the Soviets were telling the Metropolia in America, now the OCA, to submit to them!).
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2011, 08:08:46 PM »

The American ROCOR churches would join to the OCA (North and South America would be part of the OCA), whereas the rest would be under Russia or the church where they are located,if such thing happens (one bishop,one diocese). Metr. Hilarion would then be administrator of Russian parishes, whereas Metr. Jonah would be the OCA head. Dioceses would be restructured.
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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2011, 07:54:27 AM »

The OCA would have to give up its autocephaly, which it has no intention to do.

How do you figure?  The MP could just come up with a whole new thing.  Why not..they've done it before...on several occasions...hence ROCOR and the OCA...lol. 

I think that they're gona figure something out underneath the OCA.  I know that Met. Jonah has publically made it clear that he is going to be integrally involved/in charge of making sure this whole thing works out, as he understands it...i'm not going to be into it further b/c I have definite opinions about him..

You are teasing us and not quite living up to your name.  Smiley
 
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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2011, 11:05:17 AM »

Quote
ROCOR and OCA, will they join together?
The two have a history of coming closer and farther, so my answer would be: Probably but not permanently. 

As I’ve often observed, not everyone who attends services at an Orthodox Church is there for the same reason.  I think that is true also of how people think of the Church in North America. Most, in my opinion, do not think much further than the local parish.  So the feeling of the Church, as the sum of the feelings of the people in it, is that things are fine the way they are.  There is no push, from the conscience of the faithful, that change is needed. 

All change is imposed from what seems to be outside the local parish.  It is sad that most seem to regard the bishops, apart form a parish’s local bishop, as being form the outside but I believe that is the case. There is fear that if only one Orthodox Church existed in North America, than one’s local parish would need to change to be like all the other Orthodox Church parishes around them.  Even if it is just two Orthodox Churches that can traces themselves back to the same “Mother Church”, people are afraid that it will mean change for their parish.   

Changes such as this need to be wanted from the members of the faithful.
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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2011, 11:38:08 AM »

The American ROCOR churches would join to the OCA (North and South America would be part of the OCA), whereas the rest would be under Russia or the church where they are located,if such thing happens (one bishop,one diocese). Metr. Hilarion would then be administrator of Russian parishes, whereas Metr. Jonah would be the OCA head. Dioceses would be restructured.

Nope, not gonna happen, at least not in the next 50 to 100 yrs.  Much would need to change, and much time would need to pass, before such a vision of administrative unity in the US could be achieved.
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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2011, 12:56:51 PM »

The American ROCOR churches would join to the OCA (North and South America would be part of the OCA), whereas the rest would be under Russia or the church where they are located,if such thing happens (one bishop,one diocese). Metr. Hilarion would then be administrator of Russian parishes, whereas Metr. Jonah would be the OCA head. Dioceses would be restructured.

Nope, not gonna happen, at least not in the next 50 to 100 yrs.  Much would need to change, and much time would need to pass, before such a vision of administrative unity in the US could be achieved.

I agree.  I really do not see any signs of any more happening that what is going on now, namely friendly relations and some intercommunion. 
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2011, 01:34:01 PM »

The American ROCOR churches would join to the OCA (North and South America would be part of the OCA), whereas the rest would be under Russia or the church where they are located,if such thing happens (one bishop,one diocese). Metr. Hilarion would then be administrator of Russian parishes, whereas Metr. Jonah would be the OCA head. Dioceses would be restructured.

Nope, not gonna happen, at least not in the next 50 to 100 yrs.  Much would need to change, and much time would need to pass, before such a vision of administrative unity in the US could be achieved.
LOL. Hardly.

within 25 years, it will be here, no matter the kicking and screaming.  Realities are caving in.
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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2011, 03:10:33 PM »

The American ROCOR churches would join to the OCA (North and South America would be part of the OCA), whereas the rest would be under Russia or the church where they are located,if such thing happens (one bishop,one diocese). Metr. Hilarion would then be administrator of Russian parishes, whereas Metr. Jonah would be the OCA head. Dioceses would be restructured.

Nope, not gonna happen, at least not in the next 50 to 100 yrs.  Much would need to change, and much time would need to pass, before such a vision of administrative unity in the US could be achieved.

I agree.  I really do not see any signs of any more happening that what is going on now, namely friendly relations and some intercommunion. 

I would just add that while we should certainly desire and long for administrative unity here in the US (and elsewhere), as this is essential for the canonical ordering of the Church, we should focus now more on the internal unity that should take priority over any such administrative arrangement.  Every local Church, in every country, has produced saints that are recognized as such by the universal Orthodox Church.  The saints of different lands have spoken different languages, perhaps used slightly different rites, etc., and yet all of the saints have one and the same phronema, mindset, worldview, and piety.  When this piety increases in America and elsewhere, when mature traditional monasteries begin to flourish in all of the jurisdictions, when American-born members of the various jurisdictions here begin to be venerated as saints, then the administrative issues will resolve themselves.  As long as there are seminaries, professors, pseudo-monasteries, and Church publications containing and promoting anti-Church, anti-Tradition, and anti-Monastic sentiments, it is pointless to speak of a healthy united Orthodox Church in this land or in any land that has not been historically Orthodox.

On this note, there is much affinity between the Athonite monasteries of the GOA and ROCOR despite differences in calendars and various differences between Greek and Russian practices.  I also notice that St. Tikhon’s Monastery has been acquiring, advertising, and selling in their book stores more traditional Orthodox publications such as are typically sold in ROCOR and at the Athonite Monasteries.  Some of the bishops in the OCA, and others in the OCA I have met, seem to have a great reverence for ROCOR and petition to be blessed with the visit of the Kursk Root Icon to their OCA parishes.  While I think we are a long way off from administrative unity, I do think the Panagia is interceding for the Church, and that she through the Kursk Root Icon is laying the foundation for the healing of many divisions.  This has to be our hope, but we have to be sober about the poor spiritual state of Orthodoxy in this land, and its derth of native born saints.   
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« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2011, 03:40:49 PM »

The American ROCOR churches would join to the OCA (North and South America would be part of the OCA), whereas the rest would be under Russia or the church where they are located,if such thing happens (one bishop,one diocese). Metr. Hilarion would then be administrator of Russian parishes, whereas Metr. Jonah would be the OCA head. Dioceses would be restructured.

Nope, not gonna happen, at least not in the next 50 to 100 yrs.  Much would need to change, and much time would need to pass, before such a vision of administrative unity in the US could be achieved.
LOL. Hardly.

within 25 years, it will be here, no matter the kicking and screaming.  Realities are caving in.

To have an OCA-ROCOR union with jurisdiction over all the three Americas would be a blessing. Maybe even the local ROCOR in Brazil would return to canonicity.
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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2011, 03:58:32 PM »

The American ROCOR churches would join to the OCA (North and South America would be part of the OCA), whereas the rest would be under Russia or the church where they are located,if such thing happens (one bishop,one diocese). Metr. Hilarion would then be administrator of Russian parishes, whereas Metr. Jonah would be the OCA head. Dioceses would be restructured.

Nope, not gonna happen, at least not in the next 50 to 100 yrs.  Much would need to change, and much time would need to pass, before such a vision of administrative unity in the US could be achieved.

I agree.  I really do not see any signs of any more happening that what is going on now, namely friendly relations and some intercommunion.  

I would just add that while we should certainly desire and long for administrative unity here in the US (and elsewhere), as this is essential for the canonical ordering of the Church, we should focus now more on the internal unity that should take priority over any such administrative arrangement.  Every local Church, in every country, has produced saints that are recognized as such by the universal Orthodox Church.  The saints of different lands have spoken different languages, perhaps used slightly different rites, etc., and yet all of the saints have one and the same phronema, mindset, worldview, and piety.  When this piety increases in America and elsewhere, when mature traditional monasteries begin to flourish in all of the jurisdictions, when American-born members of the various jurisdictions here begin to be venerated as saints, then the administrative issues will resolve themselves.  As long as there are seminaries, professors, pseudo-monasteries, and Church publications containing and promoting anti-Church, anti-Tradition, and anti-Monastic sentiments, it is pointless to speak of a healthy united Orthodox Church in this land or in any land that has not been historically Orthodox.

On this note, there is much affinity between the Athonite monasteries of the GOA and ROCOR despite differences in calendars and various differences between Greek and Russian practices.  I also notice that St. Tikhon’s Monastery has been acquiring, advertising, and selling in their book stores more traditional Orthodox publications such as are typically sold in ROCOR and at the Athonite Monasteries.  Some of the bishops in the OCA, and others in the OCA I have met, seem to have a great reverence for ROCOR and petition to be blessed with the visit of the Kursk Root Icon to their OCA parishes.  While I think we are a long way off from administrative unity, I do think the Panagia is interceding for the Church, and that she through the Kursk Root Icon is laying the foundation for the healing of many divisions.  This has to be our hope, but we have to be sober about the poor spiritual state of Orthodoxy in this land, and its derth of native born saints.    


We may have to consider also the fact that in some communities, the local OCA church serves almost all of the ethnic Russians, whereas the ROCOR church is composed overwhelmingly of converts. The relationship between the churches are as brotherly as can be and concelebrations are frequent, limited perhaps by the separate calendars. The local OCA folks have had the opportunity to venerate the Kursk icon and love (or hold great reverence for ) their ROCOR brethren, as well as their GOA and Antiochian ones. So, you are right that unity at the grassroots level has started to happen at the most basic level--recognizing each other as fellow Orthodox Christians and starting to act accordingly.
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« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2011, 04:28:31 PM »

The American ROCOR churches would join to the OCA (North and South America would be part of the OCA), whereas the rest would be under Russia or the church where they are located,if such thing happens (one bishop,one diocese). Metr. Hilarion would then be administrator of Russian parishes, whereas Metr. Jonah would be the OCA head. Dioceses would be restructured.

Nope, not gonna happen, at least not in the next 50 to 100 yrs.  Much would need to change, and much time would need to pass, before such a vision of administrative unity in the US could be achieved.
I agree.  I really do not see any signs of any more happening that what is going on now, namely friendly relations and some intercommunion.  

I would just add that while we should certainly desire and long for administrative unity here in the US (and elsewhere), as this is essential for the canonical ordering of the Church, we should focus now more on the internal unity that should take priority over any such administrative arrangement.

North American unity is internal unity.  Its [the Dominion of] Canada and the United States of America.  Not the United Nations, the Commonwealthof Independent States, the European Union nor the Arab League.

If one is in the canonically drawn boundaries of the Orthodox Church in America
Quote
The Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America shall have exclusive spiritual and canonical jurisdiction over all bishops, clerics and laymen of the Eastern Orthodox confession in continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii...
there is your definition of "internal."

Every local Church, in every country, has produced saints that are recognized as such by the universal Orthodox Church.
Yes, already the OCA forms no exception.

The saints of different lands have spoken different languages, perhaps used slightly different rites, etc., and yet all of the saints have one and the same phronema, mindset, worldview, and piety.
Not quite.  It's not as homogenous as you make it out to be. Those who come from where the Lord came and the Church was born can see that going to Russia, Romania, Greece, etc.

When this piety increases in America and elsewhere, when mature traditional monasteries begin to flourish in all of the jurisdictions,
your tolerance of a plural there voids any point you want to make.

when American-born members of the various jurisdictions here begin to be venerated as saints,
Already done.
then the administrative issues will resolve themselves.

LOL. that would be a first in Orthodoxy.

As long as there are seminaries, professors, pseudo-monasteries, and Church publications containing and promoting anti-Church, anti-Tradition, and anti-Monastic sentiments, it is pointless to speak of a healthy united Orthodox Church in this land or in any land that has not been historically Orthodox.
Most, if not all, lands "that have been historically Orthodox" would fall by that standard, Russia not excepted.

On this note, there is much affinity between the Athonite monasteries of the GOA and ROCOR despite differences in calendars and various differences between Greek and Russian practices.  I also notice that St. Tikhon’s Monastery has been acquiring, advertising, and selling in their book stores more traditional Orthodox publications such as are typically sold in ROCOR and at the Athonite Monasteries.  Some of the bishops in the OCA, and others in the OCA I have met, seem to have a great reverence for ROCOR and petition to be blessed with the visit of the Kursk Root Icon to their OCA parishes.  While I think we are a long way off from administrative unity, I do think the Panagia is interceding for the Church, and that she through the Kursk Root Icon is laying the foundation for the healing of many divisions.  This has to be our hope, but we have to be sober about the poor spiritual state of Orthodoxy in this land, and its derth of native born saints.  
Duh, the local Church, as far as autocephalous, is within a lifetime.  That does have a limiting factor on native born saints.  SS. Boris and Gleb, the first Rus' saints (Ukrainian, Russian-I don't know if the Belarus and Carpathorussians claim them) were murdered in 1015 but not glorified until 1071, by which time the official Rus' Metropolitinate and Church was 82 years old.  The Americans have a saying, "Patience is a virtue."  In the meantime
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« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2011, 08:48:09 PM »

If I may ask just out of curiosity (i'm not Orthodox but sometimes visit a nearby OCA parish), how would such a change impact the day to day life of the average worshiper?
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2011, 08:26:03 AM »

If I may ask just out of curiosity (i'm not Orthodox but sometimes visit a nearby OCA parish), how would such a change impact the day to day life of the average worshiper?
Most likely not one bit.   If the past is a guide, the local parishes would say under their current bishops and it would just be a more confusing to diocese structure.
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2011, 10:00:41 AM »

If I may ask just out of curiosity (i'm not Orthodox but sometimes visit a nearby OCA parish), how would such a change impact the day to day life of the average worshiper?
Most likely not one bit.   If the past is a guide, the local parishes would say under their current bishops and it would just be a more confusing to diocese structure.
How much changed when the Patriarch of Moscos and ROCOR signed the Act of Canonical Communion?  When the "Free Serbs" reunited with the Patriarchate of Serbia?  When the Ukrainians were received under the omophorion of the EP?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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