OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 03:40:31 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Old Believers...  (Read 1916 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« on: February 03, 2009, 02:09:18 PM »

Do Old Believers have Bishops and an ordained Priesthood?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 02:48:56 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,462


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2009, 02:26:02 PM »

It depends.  There are different kinds of Old Believers, starting with the Priested and Priestless ones.  Obviously the Priestless ones don't have bishops or priests.  There are some Priested OB's that are in communion with mainstream Orthodoxy (notably (for the US) the Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA), but most are not, IIRC.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 02:49:06 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2009, 02:49:42 PM »

I modified the above to fix the grammatical error only.
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Hopeful Faithful
How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: In transition to the Russian Old Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Strong Russian Old Pomorsky (Stranniki)
Posts: 194


An Old Faith Flag


WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2009, 02:58:48 PM »

Do Old Believer's have Bishops and an ordained Priesthood?

A relative few "unionist" Old Believers have accepted New-Rite bishops. In so doing they lost any claim of being Old Believers. The more strict Old Believers clearly explain that Christ is their Heavenly Archpriest now and forever. Most Old Believers are more strict than the unionists and accept Prophet Daniel's fulfilling words of the "desolate sanctuary" and accept likeminded Church Fathers as Chrysostom who said that in the end there will be no earthly presiding bishops. Honestly, the term "priestless" is a misnomer created by those outside the Old Faith in order to make Old Believers falsely appear protestant, as most protestants reject the idea of priests. Strict Old Believers would never reject good priests, but evil priests they do reject. The people of the Old Faith are the keepers of anceint Orthodoxy and are not at all protestant. As Daniel foretold, we have been and are now at the end of years.

Forgive, brother John
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 03:31:16 PM by Hopeful Faithful » Logged

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 03:08:56 PM »

Do Old Believer's have Bishops and an ordained Priesthood?

A relative few "unionist" Old Believers have accepted New-Rite bishops. In so doing they lost any claim of being Old Believers. The more strict Old Believers say that Christ is their Heavenly Archpriest.

Yeah, all Protestants say that.

Quote
Most Old Believers are more strict than unionists and accept Prophet Daniel's fulfilling words of the "desolate sanctuary" and accept likeminded Church Fathers as Chrysostom who said that in the end there will be no earthly presiding bishops.
Some quotes please.

Quote
Honestly, the term "priestless" is a misnomer created by those outside the Old Faith.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 03:11:37 PM »

Do Old Believer's have Bishops and an ordained Priesthood?

A relative few "unionist" Old Believers have accepted New-Rite bishops. In so doing they lost any claim of being Old Believers. The more strict Old Believers say that Christ is their Heavenly Archpriest. Most Old Believers are more strict than the unionists and accept Prophet Daniel's fulfilling words of the "desolate sanctuary" and accept likeminded Church Fathers as Chrysostom who said that in the end there will be no earthly presiding bishops. Honestly, the term "priestless" is a misnomer created by those outside the Old Faith.

So the end came about 350 years ago, huh?  Wink
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,586


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 03:25:09 PM »

Honestly, the term "priestless" is a misnomer created by those outside the Old Faith in order to make Old Believers falsely appear protestant, as most protestants reject the idea of priests.
But you don't have any priests, do you?  Doesn't this by definition make you "priestless"?
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 06:25:52 PM »

Sorry everyone I didn't understand the replies... am I to understand that they have Priests but they are more like Protestant Pastors?
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Hopeful Faithful
How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: In transition to the Russian Old Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Strong Russian Old Pomorsky (Stranniki)
Posts: 194


An Old Faith Flag


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 06:37:00 PM »

Sorry everyone I didn't understand the replies... am I to understand that they have Priests but they are more like Protestant Pastors?

Some Old Believers have lost their identity by accepting New-Rite bishops. The strict Old Believers believe the prophecy of Daniel saying there will be a "desolate sanctuary" is presnet now at the end of years. So the strict Old Believers have Christ as their Heavenly Archpriest now. The good strict Old Believers are Old Orthodox and are not in any way Protestant. They never have rejected any good clergy, but they do reject evil clergy.

Forgive, brother John
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 06:43:16 PM by Hopeful Faithful » Logged

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 06:41:02 PM »

They reject priests because they believe the order became invalid after the Schism. They do recognize the priesthood before the the Schism. Protestants reject priesthood both past and present and for entirely different reasons.
Logged

signature
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,586


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 07:01:19 PM »

They reject priests because they believe the order became invalid after the Schism. They do recognize the priesthood before the the Schism. Protestants reject priesthood both past and present and for entirely different reasons.
In this case, the Schism being the Old Believer Schism of 17th Century Russia.
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 10:01:05 AM »

Grace and Peace,

I'm not here to make any judgments towards anyone. I'm just curious and want to ask questions. Thank you for everyone offering answers.

How many Old Believer's were there at it's height. Are there any groups like this outside of Russia? Is there a history of abuse towards them?

Am I to understand that Hopeful Faithful is an Old Believer?
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,586


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 05:40:26 PM »

Are there any groups like this outside of Russia?
Yes.  You'll find large colonies of Old Believers in Alaska and in the Willamette Valley of northwestern Oregon.

Is there a history of abuse towards them?
Old Believers were very much persecuted by the Tsars--I believe with the blessing of the Patriarch--following the Old Believer Schism.  This is, in fact, much of the reason reconciliation between the Old Believers and the "Nikonian" Russian Orthodox Church has become virtually impossible--too much resentment.

Am I to understand that Hopeful Faithful is an Old Believer?
He has identified himself as such.
Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 07:42:53 PM »

Do Old Believers do any evangelistic work of any sort? Do they welcome and gain new converts? What is their policy on this?
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 11:55:32 PM »

Quote
Do Old Believers do any evangelistic work of any sort? Do they welcome and gain new converts? What is their policy on this?

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Of course, there are many different Old Believer sects, and most tend to be very reclusive and some live like the Amish. In fact, here is a youtube video where the photographer claims to be the first person to visit this village of Old Believers since the fall of the czar. In other words, these people, in the 21st century, were living in Russia, and never knew of the Soviet Union, and thought the czar was still in power.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DS2w1ICj2Zw
Logged

signature
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,789



« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 12:39:13 AM »

In fact, here is a youtube video where the photographer claims to be the first person to visit this village of Old Believers since the fall of the czar. In other words, these people, in the 21st century, were living in Russia, and never knew of the Soviet Union, and thought the czar was still in power.

If the photos were actually of Old Believers then I would have expected at least one photograph of a church or something religious in content.  The claim that they had not heard of the revolution seems totally bogus to me.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 12:40:12 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,369



« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 12:17:42 PM »

Am I to understand that Hopeful Faithful is an Old Believer?

In other posts, Hopeful Faithful has said that he is working on becoming an Old Believer, but he has not joined them or moved to where they have a settlement or taken other steps.


Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 12:22:03 PM »

Quote
Do Old Believers do any evangelistic work of any sort? Do they welcome and gain new converts? What is their policy on this?

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Of course, there are many different Old Believer sects, and most tend to be very reclusive and some live like the Amish. In fact, here is a youtube video where the photographer claims to be the first person to visit this village of Old Believers since the fall of the czar. In other words, these people, in the 21st century, were living in Russia, and never knew of the Soviet Union, and thought the czar was still in power.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DS2w1ICj2Zw

So how is living in such a reclusive, Amish-like manner helpful to the outside world?  It seems to me rather more selfish than anything else. What do you all think?
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2009, 12:25:07 PM »

So how is living in such a reclusive, Amish-like manner helpful to the outside world?  It seems to me rather more selfish than anything else. What do you all think?
You mean, like in a monastery?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2009, 12:30:39 PM »

Well, Ozgeorge, I didn't think most OBs were monastics. They have large families, from what I can see. I'm not trying to judge, I'm just wondering what you all think about living a non-monastic life in such a state of reclusion from the outside world. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Should we as christians be trying to live redemptively in the world-should we be light and salt or should we be covering our light by going into hiding? I'm just trying to understand what the Orthodox approach is to this.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2009, 12:39:39 PM »

I guess what I'm saying is that the line between "monastic" and "non-monastic" may not be so clear.
When I go to see my Spiritual Father, I am always amazed at the other laity who go to see him. Some are married, some widowed, others single, yet they live ordinary lives in extraordinary ways. Some live in communities together, others live alone. But ultimately, whether married, single, celebate or in community, each one of us is on our own in a very real way before God.
I've always understood that in Orthodoxy, service to the poor is just as important as praying in secret for the world. "Contemplation" and "Ministry" are both "work" in Orthodoxy.
Also I think we all need to accept differences. I don't think there is one way for Orthodox laity to live. There are many different types of plants in God's Garden; and a garden full of nothing but roses would be quite tedious.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,462


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2009, 01:06:25 PM »

Very beautifully put, George, especially the garden analogy!

I think the most important thing is what works for the individual person's road to salvation.  For some people, that is indeed living apart from the world at large is relatively isolated communities; for others, it may be living in the middle of a big city.  Each person is unique and different and the Church has given us so many lanes, as it were, on the road to salvation.  Just as there is room in the Church for the Desert Fathers and St. Theodore of the Studion, there is room for the metropolitan, socially active and the simple, rural laity.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 01:07:24 PM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2009, 01:10:00 PM »

Thanks Ozgeorge and Shultz, for the excellent, and yes, beautiful explanations! So very helpful!
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,586


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2009, 04:13:12 PM »

And what of the Amish community who suffered through the anguish of seeing their children massacred by a deranged gunman a few years ago?  When the camera finally shone on these somewhat reclusive people, did they not give a very beautiful witness to Christ in how they showed nothing but forgiveness to the man who murdered their children?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 04:13:37 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Tags: Old Believers 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.088 seconds with 50 queries.