Author Topic: Filioque a Dogma  (Read 7553 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,991
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re:Filioque a Dogma
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2009, 11:38:44 PM »
[Thank you Fr. Ambrose. I will endeavor to read these links.

You may or may not know but you played a very productive role in my inquiry into Holy Orthodoxy. It's been quite a struggle Father but I don't regret the journey. My prayers are with you for playing the role you did to open the eyes of many to Holy Orthodoxy on CAF. At times, I was a stout defender of the Roman Catholic Church and her dogmas and teachings and on many occasions we debated with much zeal.

Are you really Chrisb from CAF?  I so, Well met!   It is great to see you again.   I remember the enormous battles we had on CAF.  You were for~mid~able.   :)

Quote
With that said could you comment on this...

"The Filioque controversy which has separated us for so many centuries is more than a mere technicality, but it is not insoluble. Qualifying the firm position taken when I wrote The Orthodox Church  twenty years ago, I now believe, after further study, that the problem is more in the area of semantics than in any basic doctrinal differences." (Bishop Kallistos Ware, Diakonia, quoted from Elias Zoghby's A Voice from the Byzantine East, p.43)

For example, what is Bishop Kallistos Ware missing when he says that this controversy is more in the area of semantics than in any basic doctrinal differences?
 

The good English bishop is sometimes taken to task for these comments as well as his comments on women's ordination which he has, unfortunately, incorporated in his popular book The Orthodox Church.  Whereas many priests used to strongly recommend that book to catechumens now some are hesitant to do so - a great pity since it is otherwise an excellent resource for enquirers.   But if you have Anglicans/Episcopalians in the process of converting the last thing they want to hear is Bishop Kallistos saying that Orthodox women priests may be a future possibility.

My response has been to mentally 'blank out' his avant-garde opinions but I'll look around the Net and see if there are any sensible critiques of his filioque opinion.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 11:40:41 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,696
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Re:Filioque a Dogma
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2009, 12:01:10 AM »
Are you really Chrisb from CAF?  I so, Well met!   It is great to see you again.   I remember the enormous battles we had on CAF.  You were for~mid~able.   :)

It was all in a sincere struggle to understand and come to terms I assure you.

Quote
The good English bishop is sometimes taken to task for these comments as well as his comments on women's ordination which he has, unfortunately, incorporated in his popular book The Orthodox Church.  Whereas many priests used to strongly recommend that book to catechumens now some are hesitant to do so - a great pity since it is otherwise an excellent resource for enquirers.   But if you have Anglicans/Episcopalians in the process of converting the last thing they want to hear is Bishop Kallistos saying that Orthodox women priests may be a future possibility.

That is so disappointing to hear, he has been a very erudite author for many years and his efforts at translating the great treasures of the Eastern Orthodox Faith. I've drawn much nourishment from his works. I can't help but hope the very best for him.

Quote
My response has been to mentally 'blank out' his avant-garde opinions but I'll look around the Net and see if there are any sensible critiques of his filioque opinion.

Please don't feel burdened to find something. Your comments were adequate.

I hope you are well Father and your strength never fails.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Stefi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Filioque a Dogma
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2009, 02:55:23 AM »
Hi

I read this article a few weeks ago, and I found it informative. It critiques some parts of the revised edition of "The Orthodox Church", including the text on the Filioque.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_toc.aspx

Stefania

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,991
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Filioque a Dogma
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2009, 04:44:36 AM »
I read this article a few weeks ago, and I found it informative. It critiques some parts of the revised edition of "The Orthodox Church", including the text on the Filioque.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_toc.aspx
Thanks.  A very good critique of Bp Kallistos' views.

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,696
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Re: Filioque a Dogma
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2009, 02:55:50 PM »
So we have a Bishop expressing heterodox teachings that sympathetic Roman Catholics would be considered heretics and barred from admittance to Holy Orthodoxy. Should one consider Bishop Kallistos excommunicated or heterodox for his openly professed views?  ???
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,991
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Filioque a Dogma
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2009, 12:33:16 AM »
So we have a Bishop expressing heterodox teachings that sympathetic Roman Catholics would be considered heretics and barred from admittance to Holy Orthodoxy. Should one consider Bishop Kallistos excommunicated or heterodox for his openly professed views?  ???
If you read the critique referenced  http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_toc.aspx  it seems that the bishop is indulging in speculation.  That may have been appropriate in the lecture rooms of Oxford but should he do it in a book  which has been used as a catechetical tool for several decades?  My opinion is, No!  He ought to have confined his book to sound doctrine.

From the critique:

"Before we go on, we should point out that words like "hawk" and "dove"
[with reference to the filioque] have absolutely no application to matters of theology.
Although Bishop Kallistos does not align himself with either camp...."

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,696
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Re: Filioque a Dogma
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2009, 04:38:21 PM »
If you read the critique referenced  http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_toc.aspx  it seems that the bishop is indulging in speculation.  That may have been appropriate in the lecture rooms of Oxford but should he do it in a book  which has been used as a catechetical tool for several decades?  My opinion is, No!  He ought to have confined his book to sound doctrine.

From the critique:

"Before we go on, we should point out that words like "hawk" and "dove"
[with reference to the filioque] have absolutely no application to matters of theology.
Although Bishop Kallistos does not align himself with either camp...."


Speculation is okay but not profession... would be correct?
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”