OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 25, 2014, 04:53:35 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Antipathy towards Judaism  (Read 2276 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« on: January 31, 2009, 01:07:00 PM »

Since becoming Orthodox, one of the most perplexing things of which I've become aware, is the antipathy of the Orthodox towards Judaism. The Church Fathers seem to be rampant with anti-jewish sentiment and even modern day Orthodox seem less accepting of Judaism than their heterodox Christian counterparts. Why is this so? I personally see a great deal of good in judaism and fail to understand this attitude. Why can't we appreciate and respect this good in a spirit of humility?  Thanks.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2009, 02:34:39 PM »

I have witnessed the same attitude and sentiment several times so far. I even remember that a guy at another forum wrote in response to an Orthodox believer "It is not surprising that you are a member of the Orthodox Church, your hatred towards Jews has already implied it".

I personally think that the Orthodox Church opposes not Judaism or Jews, but the way Jews interpret Judaism to bash Christ and His Gospel. It is their hostility that backfires on them. This, of course, has a lot to do with theology. However, there is more to that. The Orthodox believers generally have the political view that Jews almost always side with the enemy to stab Christians in the back. A Greek friend of mine said that the Jews allying with Ottomans were responsible for the fall of Constantinople. The cultural and political rivalry between Jews and Greeks have a new dimension now: religion.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2009, 02:41:37 PM »

Whose Messiah was Our Lord Jesus Christ?
You have to remember that the writings of the Fathers and the Liturgical Hymns were written at a time when Christianity was seen as the Fulfilment of the Old Testament, therefore, those who rejected the Messiah were not true Jews, and not the True Israel.
I think you guys are being anachronistic.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2009, 03:02:26 PM »

Thanks for the great replies! I think I am afflicted with this modern approach to religion-they're all different paths to the same goal, and there's truth in all of 'em...I have such trouble shaking off this way of thinking...

In addition, I didn't grow up in an Orthodox country which was being backstabbed in the way you mention, Theo, so it's harder for me to hold grudges against any religion such as Judaism or Islam, for instance.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 03:02:55 PM by Rosehip » Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
frost
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian, grew up in OCA
Posts: 108


« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 11:05:24 PM »

Dear Friends:

We should not think that the Orthodox faith and Orthodox cultures are necesarily anti-Judaic, or anti-Semitic, although there have been examples of such thoughout history.

For example, the Jewish community in Georgia dates from before the time of Christ. The robe of Christ was brought back to Georgia by the Jewish priest, Elioz, and buried with his sister, Sidonia. The tree that became the Holy Pillar grew out of Sidonia's grave. The Svetitskhoveli (Holy Pillar) Cathdral is built over the site. St. Nino's first converts to Christ were a Jewish couple she stayed with. They were childless until St. Nino prayed for them. The royal Bagriationi family claimed descent from the Jewish King David. The Ethiopian kings also claimed descent from King David through King Menelik.

The Jewish community in Georgia was one of the few that was never subjected to persecution by Christians. Many Georgian Jews emigrated to Isreal in the 1980's; but some have returned to invest in Georgia. Badri Patarakatsishvili, a prominent Jewish man, owns the second largest Georgian TV netwok (Imedi TV) and ran as an opposition candidate in the last presidential election.

It is helpful to recall the wider historical and social view of various episodes. For example, St. John Chrysostom's series of sermons against the Jews, was preached because the Christians and Jews of Antioch were on such friendly terms that they often took part in each others feast days. Chrystostom feared that this would make Christians suseptible to proselytism by the Jews. Historians point to Chrysostom's sermons as anti-semitic; but ignore the background of inter-communal friendship.

FF
Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,448


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 11:45:18 PM »

My priest writes a little about this in his book Surprised by Christ.
Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 12:08:26 AM »

Thank you for your input, Frost! Very, very interesting.

Quinault, I believe your priest is a convert from Judaism. I would so love to read his book!
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 05:16:26 AM »

As St Paul says, "God's gifts are irrevocable". It should not be so easy to ignore or despise the elected of God.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 12:56:05 PM »

Rosehip, in Slavic countries there might be some peculiar negative sentiment towards the Jews, but not because of their particular religious beliefs; more because during the first 17-18 years after the Bolshevik revolt of 1917, Jews (secular Jews, not religious followers of Judaism) dominated the government and the secret police (VChK, GPU, NKVD). Several "People's Comissariats" (Ministries or Secretariats, parts of the executive branch of government) consisted of ethnic Jews by 80-90% or so. Ethnic Jews almost always were commanders of armed detachments that raided the countryside, robbing peasants of all their food. The much feared sadist Henrich Yagoda (a.k.a Hershl Jehuda), the chief of the secret police in 1930-1936, was a Jew, and so was Lazar Kaganovich, Stalin's right hand who is largely blamed for the Holodomor of 1932-33 in Ukraine.

Generally, the notion that to be a Jew means to confess certain religious beliefs, is practically nonexistent in that part of the world. To be a Jew means to have a certain ethnicity.
Logged

Love never fails.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 06:14:40 PM »

Rosehip, in Slavic countries there might be some peculiar negative sentiment towards the Jews, but not because of their particular religious beliefs; more because during the first 17-18 years after the Bolshevik revolt of 1917, Jews (secular Jews, not religious followers of Judaism) dominated the government and the secret police (VChK, GPU, NKVD). Several "People's Comissariats" (Ministries or Secretariats, parts of the executive branch of government) consisted of ethnic Jews by 80-90% or so. Ethnic Jews almost always were commanders of armed detachments that raided the countryside, robbing peasants of all their food. The much feared sadist Henrich Yagoda (a.k.a Hershl Jehuda), the chief of the secret police in 1930-1936, was a Jew, and so was Lazar Kaganovich, Stalin's right hand who is largely blamed for the Holodomor of 1932-33 in Ukraine.

Generally, the notion that to be a Jew means to confess certain religious beliefs, is practically nonexistent in that part of the world. To be a Jew means to have a certain ethnicity.

This tends to ignore the high levels of antisemitism in the Tsarist government.  Precisely that persecution is why such a high percentage of Jews joined with the Bolsheviks - it offered a genuine break from the past and actual hope of better treatment.  But even this is an over simplification:  Catholic Poland has its own history of virulent anti-semitism while Orthodox Serbia and especially Bulgaria have little to no history of antisemitism (in fact the courage of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church in standing against the deportation of Bulgarian Jews during WWII is amazing). 
Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 06:38:36 PM »

I was just about to point out that the antisemitism does seem to go back much further than the Bolshevik revolt. What comes to mind immediately is that interesting bit of work, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", as just one example...

Nektarios, were there large Jewish populations in Serbia? I have heard Serbians uttering horribly anti-semitic sentiments too...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 06:42:10 PM by Rosehip » Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 06:43:38 PM »

I was just about to point out that the antisemitism does seem to go back much further than the Bolshevik revolt. What comes to mind immediately is that interesting bit of work, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", as just one example...

Here is the driving force of a lot of the actual anti-semetic policy of the Tsarist Empire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Pobedonostsev

The back and forth between him and Sergei Von Witte is quite interesting and captures the dichotomy that existed between the more liberal minded civil servants (like von Witte and Stolypin) who fought desperately to save the collapsing Empire and the reactionaries who drove it into the ground and paved the way for Bolshevism. 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 06:44:02 PM by Νεκτάριος » Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 06:53:51 PM »

Rosehip, in Slavic countries there might be some peculiar negative sentiment towards the Jews, but not because of their particular religious beliefs; more because during the first 17-18 years after the Bolshevik revolt of 1917, Jews (secular Jews, not religious followers of Judaism) dominated the government and the secret police (VChK, GPU, NKVD). Several "People's Comissariats" (Ministries or Secretariats, parts of the executive branch of government) consisted of ethnic Jews by 80-90% or so. Ethnic Jews almost always were commanders of armed detachments that raided the countryside, robbing peasants of all their food. The much feared sadist Henrich Yagoda (a.k.a Hershl Jehuda), the chief of the secret police in 1930-1936, was a Jew, and so was Lazar Kaganovich, Stalin's right hand who is largely blamed for the Holodomor of 1932-33 in Ukraine.

Generally, the notion that to be a Jew means to confess certain religious beliefs, is practically nonexistent in that part of the world. To be a Jew means to have a certain ethnicity.

This tends to ignore the high levels of antisemitism in the Tsarist government.  Precisely that persecution is why such a high percentage of Jews joined with the Bolsheviks - it offered a genuine break from the past and actual hope of better treatment.  But even this is an over simplification:  Catholic Poland has its own history of virulent anti-semitism while Orthodox Serbia and especially Bulgaria have little to no history of antisemitism (in fact the courage of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church in standing against the deportation of Bulgarian Jews during WWII is amazing). 

Ah, but I don't argue with that, you are right... Actually, my wife's mother grew up in Volyn', which was back then (in the 1930-s) under Poles, and she recalls how her father disliked the official Polish Anti-Semitism. He, an Orthodox Ukrainian, had several Jewish friends and business partners, and was of a very high opinion about them.
Logged

Love never fails.
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,406


« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 09:28:56 PM »

I was just about to point out that the antisemitism does seem to go back much further than the Bolshevik revolt. What comes to mind immediately is that interesting bit of work, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", as just one example...

Nektarios, were there large Jewish populations in Serbia? I have heard Serbians uttering horribly anti-semitic sentiments too...

According to a fellow singer at church who is a on the scholarly side, the above work (Protocols) is a forgery.  Just sharin'....
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2009, 06:20:39 AM »

I was just about to point out that the antisemitism does seem to go back much further than the Bolshevik revolt. What comes to mind immediately is that interesting bit of work, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", as just one example...

Nektarios, were there large Jewish populations in Serbia? I have heard Serbians uttering horribly anti-semitic sentiments too...

No, the Jewish populations in Southeast Europe / the Balkans were relatively small other than in Thessaloniki (and the Thessaloniki Jews were almost entirely killed during WWII).  Still there were pre-war Jewish communities; for instance, there is a memorial to those killed in Novi Sad.  At least the official story is that it was Hungarian troops who were responsible.  The only massive indigenous South Slavic killing of Jews was the Ustasa, but killing Serbs was their main objective that galvanized wide popular support for their crimes.   

It's too late now, but tomorrow I'll post exact numbers for the demographic breakdown of some of the inter-war republics.  I know Poland had in the neighborhood of 10% Jewish population.  Minsk and Vilnius were predominantly Jewish cities.  That could also explain why anti-semitism was much more common at official levels among West and East Slavs relative to South Slavs.  Another difference to not discount is that Jews in Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Thessaloniki were Sephardic rather than Ashkenazi.  There is also the influence of the Ottoman system.   

I think it is important to make a distinction between a few loose cannons of any one group muttering racist remarks compared there being the popular will to organize pogroms, widely accept the validity of the Protocols, etc.  When the former happens in Serbia, I think it is a newer phenomenon and has its roots in anti-Western political ideologies. 

All in all, while anti-semitism has rooted itself deeply in some Orthodox countries it has also taken root in Catholic and Protestant communities in the same geographical area of Central and Eastern Europe.  And, I'd wager the real reason you're probably more likely to find residual anti-semitism further East is economic development. 
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,358



« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 12:32:13 PM »

According to a fellow singer at church who is a on the scholarly side, the above work (Protocols) is a forgery.  Just sharin'....

The "Protocols" are a forgery in that they are not true nor based on any real occurrence and parts were plagiarized from previous books on other subjects.  They were put out to attack and deride Jews
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 12:35:36 PM »

According to a fellow singer at church who is a on the scholarly side, the above work (Protocols) is a forgery.  Just sharin'....

The "Protocols" are a forgery in that they are not true nor based on any real occurrence and parts were plagiarized from previous books on other subjects.  They were put out to attack and deride Jews

Precisely.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,789



« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 03:12:48 PM »

The "Protocols" are a forgery in that they are not true nor based on any real occurrence and parts were plagiarized from previous books on other subjects.  They were put out to attack and deride Jews.

I was actually under the impression that is was meant to be satirical.  If so, it would seem as though that backfired...
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,358



« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2009, 11:54:13 AM »

The "Protocols" are a forgery in that they are not true nor based on any real occurrence and parts were plagiarized from previous books on other subjects.  They were put out to attack and deride Jews.

I was actually under the impression that is was meant to be satirical.  If so, it would seem as though that backfired...

As it was promulgated, the "Protocols" were not in any way a satire, but intended to rally people against Jews and it has been used in that way up to the present day.


Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2009, 12:01:27 PM »

As it was promulgated, the "Protocols" were not in any way a satire, but intended to rally people against Jews and it has been used in that way up to the present day.
And to this day, people still fall for this idiotic forgery.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2009, 01:15:09 PM »

As it was promulgated, the "Protocols" were not in any way a satire, but intended to rally people against Jews and it has been used in that way up to the present day.
And to this day, people still fall for this idiotic forgery.


As I wrote before, I was, about 1.5 years ago, very surprised to learn that Sergei Nilus was very instrumental in forging these "protocols." If I did not learn that about him, I would think that Nilus was a saint. His other writings are wonderful, very inspirational.

Also, it is quite disappointing to me that such luminaries as Metr. Antoniy of Kyiv and Halych (Khrapovitsky - was a personal confessor of the Tsar's family), Arch. Veniamin of St. Petersburg (a Hieromartyr!), and a number of other highly positioned hierarchs of the ROC of the 1890-s - 1910s were members of the so-called "Union of the Russian People," a very ill-reputed judophobic organization, otherwise known as "Chornaja Sotnya" ("The Black Hundred"). Here is a complete list of its members: http://www.hrono.info/biograf/bio_ch/cherno100.html
Logged

Love never fails.
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,406


« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2009, 02:37:31 PM »

As it was promulgated, the "Protocols" were not in any way a satire, but intended to rally people against Jews and it has been used in that way up to the present day.
And to this day, people still fall for this idiotic forgery.


And unfortunately, as I understand, a certain Elder in a monastery in Arizona endorses the book too.  I hope I'm mistaken or that this has stopped.
Logged
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2009, 07:45:27 PM »

I do know the Metropolitan of Moscow, Vladimir (who is now a saint), condemned the Protocols in 1905.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 07:45:56 PM by antiderivative » Logged

signature
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2009, 08:31:47 AM »

I do know the Metropolitan of Moscow, Vladimir (who is now a saint), condemned the Protocols in 1905.

Thank you for mentioning this! Indeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir,_Metropolitan_of_Moscow

I did not know about that. The XPOHOC Internet library, from where I got the list of the Black Hundred members, seems to over-emphasize and almost praise those whom he condemned (particularly Nilus).

BTW, the above list includes also Prof. N.O. Lossky, a prominent philosopher-personalist and (as far as I understand?) the father of Vladimir Lossky. Just another demonstration of how pernicious the Judophobia can be... I hope the son, a prominent Orthodox theologian who lived most of his life far from Russia, in Paris, did not share the Judophobic views of his father (or the father was not really an active or ideologically-driven member of the Black Hundred).
Logged

Love never fails.
Eleos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Posts: 251


« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2009, 07:04:21 PM »

I do know the Metropolitan of Moscow, Vladimir (who is now a saint), condemned the Protocols in 1905.

Thank you for mentioning this! Indeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir,_Metropolitan_of_Moscow
Here's an excerpt of the address of Metropolitan Vladimir "What should we do during these troubled days?" (Что нам делать в эти тревожные наши дни?)  that's referred to (but not quoted) in the above linked Wiki article:

Quote
in their secret protocols they call us, the Christians, animals, to whom God, they say, have given a human face only in order that it should not be repulsive to them, His chosen ones, to use our services…

The source of that quote is a book by Vladimir Moss available in PDF: NEW ZION IN BABYLON - PART 1

The Wiki article linked to above says that Metropolitan Vladimir denounces the Protocols and their authors, but the quote above seems to suggest the opposite, that Metropolitan Vladimir accepted the Protocols as authentic, and that Judophobia had merit.  Could someone provide a translation or quotes from the address that support the claim that he actually denounced the authors of the Protocols as "criminal" and "anti-Christian" as the Wiki article claims? 
Logged

"The Unity of the Church, as Your Holinesses well know it, is the will of God and ought to be an inspiring example to all men. It should always be a help and not a hindrance to the unity of men of different religions."-Emperor Haile Selassie To the Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches 1965
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.093 seconds with 52 queries.