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Author Topic: Russian Catholic Churches: Eastern Rite or Latinized?  (Read 2564 times) Average Rating: 0
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scamandrius
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« on: January 29, 2009, 07:47:39 PM »

With all the discussions related to the elevation of His Holiness Kirill to be Patriarch of Moscow and the question of whether this will thaw relations with the Vatican because of accusations that the Catholics are sheep stealing from the MP, are the Catholic Churches in Russia (not including Ukraine) Eastern Rite?  If so, are they under any pressure to adopt Latin rituals and rites?  Just curious.
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 10:28:55 PM »

With all the discussions related to the elevation of His Holiness Kirill to be Patriarch of Moscow and the question of whether this will thaw relations with the Vatican because of accusations that the Catholics are sheep stealing from the MP, are the Catholic Churches in Russia (not including Ukraine) Eastern Rite?  If so, are they under any pressure to adopt Latin rituals and rites?  Just curious.

There are Eastern Rite, and Latin Rite, with the usual problems.
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 10:55:42 PM »

With all the discussions related to the elevation of His Holiness Kirill to be Patriarch of Moscow and the question of whether this will thaw relations with the Vatican because of accusations that the Catholics are sheep stealing from the MP, are the Catholic Churches in Russia (not including Ukraine) Eastern Rite?  If so, are they under any pressure to adopt Latin rituals and rites?  Just curious.

There are Eastern Rite, and Latin Rite, with the usual problems.

Is there pressure from the Vatican or any of the bishops that the Eastern Rite churches adopt the Latin (western) rite? What do you mean, ialmisry, by "usual problems" exactly?
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 11:09:15 PM »

With all the discussions related to the elevation of His Holiness Kirill to be Patriarch of Moscow and the question of whether this will thaw relations with the Vatican because of accusations that the Catholics are sheep stealing from the MP, are the Catholic Churches in Russia (not including Ukraine) Eastern Rite?  If so, are they under any pressure to adopt Latin rituals and rites?  Just curious.

There are Eastern Rite, and Latin Rite, with the usual problems.

Is there pressure from the Vatican or any of the bishops that the Eastern Rite churches adopt the Latin (western) rite? What do you mean, ialmisry, by "usual problems" exactly?

The Russian Catholic Church (Eastern Rite) is currently in a state of complete disarray.  They currently have no hierarchy of their own (all under the jurisdiction of Msgr. Joseph Werth, Bishop of Siberia and the Russian Far East, and their parish Priests come from a variety of backgrounds, since they have so few available, including Latin Rite Priests who chose to study the the Eastern Rites to help.  I know they use a variety of liturgies, including the Old Believers' Liturgy and the post-Nikonian Liturgy in Slavonic.
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 06:06:33 AM »

There are only a few parishes/missions in Russia itself.  2 in Moscow, 2 in St. Petersburg, 2 in Siberia.  All are currently served by three priests, all are Russian.  One priest serves Liturgy according to the Old Rite.  The Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow still officially exists but the Holy Father has declined to ordain a hierarch for this Church so as not to upset the Russian Patriarch.  There are about 20 parishes/missions througout the US, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland, Italy, and Australia.  These are generally served by biritual priests or priests from other Greek Catholic Churches.  From their beginning their Liturgy has been unlatinizied and there has never been any pressure on them to do so. 
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 09:46:03 AM »

There are only a few parishes/missions in Russia itself.  2 in Moscow, 2 in St. Petersburg, 2 in Siberia.  All are currently served by three priests, all are Russian.  One priest serves Liturgy according to the Old Rite.  The Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow still officially exists but the Holy Father has declined to ordain a hierarch for this Church so as not to upset the Russian Patriarch.  There are about 20 parishes/missions througout the US, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland, Italy, and Australia.  These are generally served by biritual priests or priests from other Greek Catholic Churches.  From their beginning their Liturgy has been unlatinizied and there has never been any pressure on them to do so. 

What do you mean by "birutual priests" for those readers who may not know?
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 10:55:08 AM »

There are about 20 parishes/missions througout the US, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland, Italy, and Australia.
Actually all catholic parishes in Finland are latin.
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 11:25:21 AM »

What do you mean by "birutual priests" for those readers who may not know?

Biritualists are Catholic priests who are allowed to serve the Mass in two Catholic rites (not simultaneously of course) for example Armenian and Roman or Roman and Byzantine-Ukrainian. The permission is given by the Congregation for the Oriental Churches
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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2009, 10:37:25 PM »

The Oriental Congregation is no longer involved; if two Churches of different liturgical rites have overlapping jurisdiction a priest only needs the consent of his bishop and the bishop of the other ritual Church he wishes to serve.  There is usually a period of liturgical study and mentoring before faculties are granted.

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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2009, 11:19:25 PM »

There are about 20 parishes/missions througout the US, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland, Italy, and Australia.
Actually all catholic parishes in Finland are latin.

You must not be aware of the Russian Catholic Chapel of SS Peter and Paul in Myllyjarvi.

http://stmichaelruscath.org/outbound/parishes/finland.myllyjarvi.php

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2009, 12:27:12 AM »

Deacon Lance,

Do you know of the Russian Catholic parish in SF, Our Lady of Fatima?  At least I think it is "Russian Catholic".  A few of their choir members have been at the Liturgical Singing Seminar at my parish several times.  No, they don't try to go to Communion to dispel any questions - they just sing with the super-duper-mega-seminar choir during the services.
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2009, 04:53:38 PM »

There are also about 30 Ukrainian-Catholic parishes: site.
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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 12:01:01 AM »

Deacon Lance,

Do you know of the Russian Catholic parish in SF, Our Lady of Fatima?  At least I think it is "Russian Catholic".  A few of their choir members have been at the Liturgical Singing Seminar at my parish several times.  No, they don't try to go to Communion to dispel any questions - they just sing with the super-duper-mega-seminar choir during the services.

I do but I have never had the opportunity to visit...yet.
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2009, 09:22:42 AM »

Actually all catholic parishes in Finland are latin.

You must not be aware of the Russian Catholic Chapel of SS Peter and Paul in Myllyjarvi.

http://stmichaelruscath.org/outbound/parishes/finland.myllyjarvi.php

Fr. Deacon Lance

 Grin Grin Note that Alpo used the term "parish". The Chapel at Myllyjärvi is an ecumenical experiment, not a real parish.  Grin
A bunch of protestants painting icons is not a Catholic parish.  Grin

I should stop messing with you Deacon Lance . I don't really disagree that this place could be called a parish.
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2009, 09:27:09 AM »

From the webpage linked to by Dcn Lance:

Quote
Another continuing prejudice is that our visitors think that they are baptized as Lutheran, Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist and so forth. We try to correct them that there is no Orthodox, Lutheran or whatsoever baptism, once we are baptized into Christ.

Ewwww.
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 02:33:16 PM »

From the webpage linked to by Dcn Lance:

Quote
Another continuing prejudice is that our visitors think that they are baptized as Lutheran, Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist and so forth. We try to correct them that there is no Orthodox, Lutheran or whatsoever baptism, once we are baptized into Christ.

Ewwww.



This form of "one God no matter what you believe" false ecumenism is wretched.  Turning your head and accepting false teaching in the name of love, ie, "
Quote
Another continuing prejudice is that our visitors think that they are baptized as Lutheran, Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist and so forth. We try to correct them that there is no Orthodox, Lutheran or whatsoever baptism, once we are baptized into Christ.
" is promoting a lie and false love.  Real love is the truth.  If you sincerely love other people than you teach them the truth not this fake acceptance that promotes division.  The modern ecumenical movement is the biggest lie.  Real ecumenical leaders were men like St. Mark of Ephesus who promoted ecumenism that was based on an acceptance of common doctrine and faith.
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2009, 05:24:01 PM »

This form of "one God no matter what you believe" false ecumenism is wretched.  Turning your head and accepting false teaching in the name of love, ie, "
Quote
I think that the kind of ecumenism that is being presented here is far beyond the "one God no matter what you believe" version. Its really talking specifically of those who believe in the and triune God revealed in Jesus Christ our Lord. That is much more specific than those who just "believe in God". Its belief in the one, true God and the redemption that he has bought by his blood. Brother, we have much in common and much to rejoice in for that very reason, much to celebrate together. In heaven, the denominationalism will disappear. In heaven, we will all be one in Christ, as was originally intended. If that is our destiny, why not celebrate that now, even if we have obstacles to overcome?
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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2009, 12:41:50 PM »

There are about 20 parishes/missions througout the US, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland, Italy, and Australia.
Actually all catholic parishes in Finland are latin.

You must not be aware of the Russian Catholic Chapel of SS Peter and Paul in Myllyjarvi.

http://stmichaelruscath.org/outbound/parishes/finland.myllyjarvi.php

Fr. Deacon Lance

I was aware of that chapel although I didn't know that it was a part of Russian Catholic parish. However, fr. Robert de Caluwe who used to celebrate byzantine liturgy there died on 2005 and I believe that the former Ecumenical Center is now a Redemptroris Mater seminary of the neocatechumenals.
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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2009, 12:58:20 PM »

From the webpage linked to by Dcn Lance:

Quote
Another continuing prejudice is that our visitors think that they are baptized as Lutheran, Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist and so forth. We try to correct them that there is no Orthodox, Lutheran or whatsoever baptism, once we are baptized into Christ.

Ewwww.


Ewwww is right.


As another thread is showing, when we are baptized into Christ is NOT agreed on by the Lutheran, Orthodox, Baptist, etc.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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