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Author Topic: Today is the anniversary of the "Ukrainian Thermopiles"  (Read 2615 times) Average Rating: 0
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Heorhij
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« on: January 29, 2009, 12:48:23 PM »

On January 29, 1918, a group of only 400 Ukrainian men (mostly students, some of them only 15-16 years old; some sources say 300) held a railway station near the village called Kruty, ~80 miles off the city of Kyiv, for about 5 hours, defending it from the attack of a 6,000 men-strong detachment of the Russian Bolshevik army intending to capture Kyiv. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kruty

Just like the 300 Spartans at Thermopiles, almost all of them died during the battle, including their brave commander, Captain Ahapiy Honcharenko. Eleven youths were captured by the Reds and executed by the firing squad.

The battle near Kruty might seem senseless, but it actually delayed the fall of the capital of then-independent People's Republic of Ukraine to the Reds until February 6th. Even more importantly, it was the first precedent of armed struggle of the Ukrainian people for the independence of their homeland since the Poltava battle of 1709. Later, in the 1940-s - 1950-s, heroes of the glorious Ukrainian Insurgent Army used images of the Kruty heroes as their role models.

Unfortunately, only the "uncanonical" Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) served the memorial Panakhyda and reported about it in their online bulletin (http://www.cerkva.info/2009/01/29/panakhyda.html), while the "autonomous" (Huh) UOC-MP was completely unconcerned...

Cлава Україні - Гeроям Cлава! Glory to Ukraine, glory to her heroes.
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 01:33:01 PM »

Thank you so much for posting this.  I for one, knew nothing about this event.

My family, which has remained Ukrainian Orthodox and maintained the language and culture, emigrated to Canada from Bukovyna, Ukraine over 100 years ago.  So many families like mine unfortuantely think Ukrainian history ended when we came to Canada!

So I for one need to know these things.  I also need to know about current religious events in Ukraine.

Z Bohom,
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 02:02:10 PM »


Our parish (a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA) serves a panachida EVERY year, right after the Divine Liturgy. 

There's always a couple of teens who go up front with the Ukrainian flag and the US flag, and others hold candles.  It's a very somber event.

The memorial takes place the nearest Sunday after the actual date.  Therefore, that will be this coming Sunday.

Cлава Україні - Гeроям Cлава і Вічная пам'ять!
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 03:04:38 PM »

May the Lord remember them in His Kingdom, always, now and unto ages of ages.

Memory Eternal!
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 11:35:00 AM »


...from this Sunday.

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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 04:36:04 PM »

May the Memories of the Heroes who perished at Kruty be Eternal.

Amen!
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2009, 05:02:00 PM »

Memory Eternal!
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2009, 06:16:18 PM »

Wouldn't this qualify as Political discussion, since it makes political statements about Ukraine in relationship to Russia?  I would think that mentioning Ukrainian "national" history would probably anger many Russians on the board, so it seem more fit for political discussion.  Just an observation on my part.
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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2009, 07:12:18 PM »

Wouldn't this qualify as Political discussion, since it makes political statements about Ukraine in relationship to Russia?  I would think that mentioning Ukrainian "national" history would probably anger many Russians on the board, so it seem more fit for political discussion.  Just an observation on my part.

Why are you putting "national" in quotation marks?

And if Russians on this board are/will be angered because I mentioned a massacre of 400 Ukrainian boys by a horde of militant anti-Christian Bolsheviks under the commandment of a bloody sadist Mikhail Muraviov - then I am just... sorry.
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 07:35:13 PM »

And if Russians on this board are/will be angered because I mentioned a massacre of 400 Ukrainian boys by a horde of militant anti-Christian Bolsheviks under the commandment of a bloody sadist Mikhail Muraviov - then I am just... sorry.

Whatever else may be, that description of the event is hardly befitting a comparison to Thermopylae and some of the finest warriors the world has ever seen.

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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 07:39:37 PM »

Whatever else may be, that description of the event is hardly befitting a comparison to Thermopylae and some of the finest warriors the world has ever seen.

Remember the Alamo too!
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 08:01:44 PM »

Whatever else may be, that description of the event is hardly befitting a comparison to Thermopylae and some of the finest warriors the world has ever seen.

Remember the Alamo too!

Oh yes! I used to hear that a lot! That's where my forefathers faught, if I'm not mistaken...
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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2009, 02:37:40 PM »

Whatever else may be, that description of the event is hardly befitting a comparison to Thermopylae and some of the finest warriors the world has ever seen.

Remember the Alamo too!

Right... When a Russian Orthodox praises Alexander Nevsky, he is a good Orthodox. When a Ukrainian Orthodox mentions something sacred to his nation, the nation is immediately mentioned in quotation marks, and the poster is given a lecture about "some of the best warriors the word has seen" and how small his "nation" is compared to them, plus a dose of sarcasm.

You know what guys. I am insulted and, unless you apologize, I will not stay on this forum. Sorry.
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« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 03:05:49 PM »

Heorhij, my comment had nothing to do with Ukrainians and everything to do with an unwarranted comparison to Thermopylae (which is true of most comparisons to the Spartans at Thermopylae).  A small force that faces a substantially larger enemy army and bleeds them white for several days before being defeated is a good comparison; a small force that faces a substantially larger enemy army and is overrun in a few hours is not.  That's not anti-Ukrainian; that's simply history.  As someone else pointed out, the Alamo is probably a far better comparison to the event you mentioned, being a symbol of national resistance, rather than military skill and prowess. 
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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 06:08:06 PM »

Heorhij, my comment had nothing to do with Ukrainians and everything to do with an unwarranted comparison to Thermopylae (which is true of most comparisons to the Spartans at Thermopylae).  A small force that faces a substantially larger enemy army and bleeds them white for several days before being defeated is a good comparison; a small force that faces a substantially larger enemy army and is overrun in a few hours is not.  That's not anti-Ukrainian; that's simply history.  As someone else pointed out, the Alamo is probably a far better comparison to the event you mentioned, being a symbol of national resistance, rather than military skill and prowess. 

That's how people refer to this battle in Ukraine, - "The Ukrainian Thermopylae." So perhaps we Ukrainians are too stupid, we do not appreciate that the Thermopylae were about the "military skill and prowess" and not at all about defending one's country.
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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2009, 11:37:02 AM »


Heorhij,

Don't let these comments upset you.  Instead be glad for them.  This means these people and their nations/ancestors have faced little, if any persecution and they had no need to defend their lands against a one-sided onslaught.  I hope this is the case.  ...and as such they have no idea what it feels like. 

Memory eternal to one and all, in whatever land, who have died in defense of their lands and the Faith!



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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2009, 11:41:45 AM »

Because, of course, if you don't agree with everything a Ukrainian says about his/her country, you hate Ukrainians per se.

What a farce. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2009, 12:36:15 PM »


Hey!

That was just rude, Veniamin!

I said nothing about agreeing or disagreeing with what Ukrainians say.  Why are you picking a fight?

I was simply making a comment on persecution.

Tell me....didn't American patriotism grow after 9/11.  People who took America for granted in August...all of a sudden were darn proud to be an American in September!
Same thing happened during the hostage taking....when hundreds of yellow ribbons decorated trees.

This is human nature.  You don't appreciate what you have until it's taken from you.

Therefore, unless you've "suffered" a loss...you won't have that need to defend and protect what is yours.

This is true of every nation in the world...not just Ukraine. 

I am still of the thought that if you don't have that "need" or "pride" (due to no personal loss) then I hope you never developer it....meaning I hope you never suffer a loss.

...and as an Orthodox Christian you really shouldn't "hate" anybody.

Peace.



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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2009, 12:37:07 PM »

Because, of course, if you don't agree with everything a Ukrainian says about his/her country, you hate Ukrainians per se.

What a farce. Roll Eyes

Not quite "everything." Please feel free to disagree if I say that my country is located in Sweden or Australia.

But don't you dare belittle my country.
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2009, 12:47:42 PM »

Because, of course, if you don't agree with everything a Ukrainian says about his/her country, you hate Ukrainians per se.

What a farce. Roll Eyes

Not quite "everything." Please feel free to disagree if I say that my country is located in Sweden or Australia.

But don't you dare belittle my country.

Belittle your country?  How about we review what's been said here?

A) You post a comment comparing the battle in question to Thermopylae.

B) I post a response saying that's a lousy comparison.

C) You post a response accusing me of being anti-Ukrainian in my response.

D) I respond detailing my specific reasons for thinking that's a lousy comparison and then second someone else's suggestion of a comparison to the Alamo, a battle that is highly revered in my own homeland.

E) You respond by accusing me of thinking all Ukrainians are stupid.

At least we've managed to agree on one thing: my comment that if you disagree with a Ukrainian, it means you hate him.
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2009, 01:03:15 PM »


[/quote]
At least we've managed to agree on one thing: my comment that if you disagree with a Ukrainian, it means you hate him.
[/quote]

Can we stop?  Please.

Nobody here hates anybody else.

I am Ukrainian, and you can disagree with me all you like...and I hope you will not hate me.

What's the point of having a discussion if you can't discuss?  This is not a place to spawn hatred amongst brothers...but, to share our experiences, knowledge, hopes and thoughts with each other.

Everybody chill....before you say something really hurtful.



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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 01:11:06 PM »

Nobody here hates anybody else.

I am Ukrainian, and you can disagree with me all you like...and I hope you will not hate me.

I don't hate you, Heorhij, or any other Ukrainian.

However, according to Heorhij, the fact that I disagree with him and think that comparison is a bad one is proof that I hate all Ukrainians. 
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2009, 01:28:52 PM »

Nobody here hates anybody else.

I am Ukrainian, and you can disagree with me all you like...and I hope you will not hate me.

I don't hate you, Heorhij, or any other Ukrainian.

However, according to Heorhij, the fact that I disagree with him and think that comparison is a bad one is proof that I hate all Ukrainians. 

No, I don't conclude from that that you hate Ukrainians. I do conclude, however, from your unwillingness to grant Ukrainians their right to create their own historycal mythology by comparing Kruty with Thermopylae, that you don't think much of Ukrainians as a nation; you belittle them (us, me). I can do the same to you by saying, for example, that Americans are not a nation at all, that they are just a "common business," that they have no real history, no real heroes (just sat hiding behind their ocans and waited for the opportunity to enrich themselves while European peoples fought), or that calling a bunch of Free Masons who agitated and provoked people to evade taxes "Founding Fathers" is a "lousy comparison." Of course, to this you will offer a lot of very logical arguments to the contrary. But you will, perhaps, be insulted by me saying all this. Similarly, I am insulted by what you have said in this thread.
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2009, 01:41:36 PM »

No, I don't conclude from that that you hate Ukrainians.

I call shenanigans on that one.  You actually agreed with my assessment that I couldn't disagree with you without being anti-Ukrainian.

Quote
I do conclude, however, from your unwillingness to grant Ukrainians their right to create their own historycal mythology by comparing Kruty with Thermopylae, that you don't think much of Ukrainians as a nation; you belittle them (us, me). I can do the same to you by saying, for example, that Americans are not a nation at all, that they are just a "common business," that they have no real history, no real heroes (just sat hiding behind their ocans and waited for the opportunity to enrich themselves while European peoples fought), or that calling a bunch of Free Masons who agitated and provoked people to evade taxes "Founding Fathers" is a "lousy comparison." Of course, to this you will offer a lot of very logical arguments to the contrary.

Funny that my "belittling" you consists of agreeing with someone that the battle in question is a better comparison to a battle revered in my country than to the one you think it is.  If I wanted to deny Ukrainians a right to create a national mythology, why would I agree that a portion of that mythology is better compared to a portion of my own national mythology?  Can you really not recognize the difference between "that's not worthy of remembering" and "that's a bad comparison; here's a better one"?

Quote
But you will, perhaps, be insulted by me saying all this. Similarly, I am insulted by what you have said in this thread.

The only thing I'm insulted by are your intentional, malicious, and false accusations that I am anti-Ukrainian.
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2009, 02:30:38 PM »

No, I don't conclude from that that you hate Ukrainians.

I call shenanigans on that one.  You actually agreed with my assessment that I couldn't disagree with you without being anti-Ukrainian.

Quote
I do conclude, however, from your unwillingness to grant Ukrainians their right to create their own historycal mythology by comparing Kruty with Thermopylae, that you don't think much of Ukrainians as a nation; you belittle them (us, me). I can do the same to you by saying, for example, that Americans are not a nation at all, that they are just a "common business," that they have no real history, no real heroes (just sat hiding behind their ocans and waited for the opportunity to enrich themselves while European peoples fought), or that calling a bunch of Free Masons who agitated and provoked people to evade taxes "Founding Fathers" is a "lousy comparison." Of course, to this you will offer a lot of very logical arguments to the contrary.

Funny that my "belittling" you consists of agreeing with someone that the battle in question is a better comparison to a battle revered in my country than to the one you think it is.  If I wanted to deny Ukrainians a right to create a national mythology, why would I agree that a portion of that mythology is better compared to a portion of my own national mythology?  Can you really not recognize the difference between "that's not worthy of remembering" and "that's a bad comparison; here's a better one"?

Quote
But you will, perhaps, be insulted by me saying all this. Similarly, I am insulted by what you have said in this thread.

The only thing I'm insulted by are your intentional, malicious, and false accusations that I am anti-Ukrainian.

Ok. I did not accuse you in being anti-Ukrainian and I apologize if I made it look that way.

I am still concerned that people call national interests of Ukraiune "national" in quotation marks and otherwise react to my posts in a way that seems to me like belittling my nation. Maybe I am paranoid; again, I apologize, but I am not comfortable when people on this forum do it.

Have a good day.
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2009, 09:51:40 AM »

Veniamin,

I gave this situation some thought, and I would like to apologize. Please forgive me. The thing is, I don't really know the history and the historical mythology of your country. It seemed to me that the comparison with Alamo was a sarcasm and a deliberate belittling of the significance of the battle at Kruty.

In Ukraine, few people if any know anything about the Alamo or even care to know. Unfortunately, I, even though I have lived in the USA for ~19 years, am like a "regular" "Ukrainian Ukrainian," who is prone to thinking the world of the ancient European history and to not really appreciating the history of the USA. I know it's bad.

Please forgive me, I behaved like a total jerk and I am very sorry about it.
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2009, 11:13:45 AM »

Heorhij, likewise, please forgive me if I offended you at any point.  I never stopped to consider that even though the battle of the Alamo would be instantly recognizable to any American (even those not versed in history), the significance of it might not be obvious to someone else.  Even though no offense was intended, I can understand how it might have been taken.  Please forgive.
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2009, 12:14:39 PM »

Heorhij, likewise, please forgive me if I offended you at any point.  I never stopped to consider that even though the battle of the Alamo would be instantly recognizable to any American (even those not versed in history), the significance of it might not be obvious to someone else.  Even though no offense was intended, I can understand how it might have been taken.  Please forgive.

You don't need to apologize, because you did not do anything wrong. It was my foolish perception.
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