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Offline antiderivative

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OCA
« on: January 28, 2009, 05:21:55 PM »
Is the OCA considered schismatic and out of communion by those who don't recognize its autocephalecy?
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: OCA
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2009, 05:26:06 PM »
I don't consider them schismatic!  ;D

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Re: OCA
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2009, 05:26:13 PM »
AFAIK, it's just considered a metropolia of the Russian Orthodox Church.
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Offline antiderivative

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Re: OCA
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2009, 05:28:11 PM »
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AFAIK, it's just considered a metropolia of the Russian Orthodox Church.

You mean by those who just don't recognize its independence?
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Offline Schultz

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Re: OCA
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2009, 05:40:36 PM »
Quote
AFAIK, it's just considered a metropolia of the Russian Orthodox Church.

You mean by those who just don't recognize its independence?

Yes.
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: OCA
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2009, 05:52:21 PM »
I don't consider them schismatic!  ;D

Either does any other canonical Orthodox jurisdiction in the world!  Including those who recognise their autocephally and those who don't.  The OCA ceased being a Metropolia in 1970 when it received its Tomos of Autocephally from its mother - the Moscow Patriarch.

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Offline Fr. David

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Re: OCA
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2009, 07:28:59 PM »
Is the OCA considered schismatic and out of communion by those who don't recognize its autocephalecy?

As a direct answer: No.
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Offline prodromas

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Re: OCA
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2009, 09:31:10 PM »
Is the OCA considered schismatic and out of communion by those who don't recognize its autocephalecy?

As a direct answer: No.

Says the schismatic lol kidding. I was wondering that about ROCOR also.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: OCA
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2009, 10:21:23 PM »
Since the Moscow Patriarchate granted "autocephaly" to the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia, proclaiming it the "Autocephalous Orthodox Church in America" in 1970, only a few of the Holy Orthodox Churches recognized this "Tomos of Autocephaly." They were Churches within Communist nations, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, as I recall.  None of the Ancient Patriarchates or the Greek speaking Churches accepted the autocephalous status.  However, just as the Holy Orthodox Churches maintained Communion with the Metropolia while it was in schism with the Moscow Patriarchate when it had separated itself administratively from Moscow, due to the peculiar circumstances in its Mother Church (Moscow), the Holy Orthodox Churches have continued to maintain Communion with the OCA.  The Ecumenical Patriarchate had, in 1970, implied that it might break Communion if the Tomos was issued. Though relations were strained, it did not break Communion. 

Upon the fall of Communism and the Soviet Union, the OCA appealed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for recognition.  A compromise was reached with the Ecumenical Patriarchate recognizing its "self-governing" status, but did not and does not recognize the OCA as a sister, autocephalous, Holy Orthodox Church.  Again, Communion was always maintained.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 10:27:48 PM by Basil 320 »
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Offline BrotherAidan

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Re: OCA
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 11:38:58 PM »
No Old World patriarch is going to recognize the autocephaly of an Orthodox Church in America that is not from their jurisdiction for obvious reasons, and they aren't spiritual. That's not a criticism on my part, just an acceptance of reality.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 11:39:22 PM by BrotherAidan »

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Re: OCA
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2009, 12:15:02 AM »
No Old World patriarch is going to recognize the autocephaly of an Orthodox Church in America that is not from their jurisdiction for obvious reasons, and they aren't spiritual. That's not a criticism on my part, just an acceptance of reality.
Especially not as long as the Ecumenical Throne claims rightful jurisdiction here according to his interpretation of Canon 28 of Chalcedon.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 12:18:07 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: OCA
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2009, 12:25:11 AM »
Reply to Reply # 9, BrotherAidan,

I disagree.  A Constitutional Charter, among all the Churches who have jurisdictions in North America, with appropriate provisions, including support for the mother churches and their involvement, to some extent, in hierarchal elections, could be facilitated and an agreement could be reached, which would benefit America and the mother churches.  It would take a pan-Orthodox committee of negotiators, with the goal of some form of a unifed administration.  It is feasible and should be pursued.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 12:26:25 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Elisha

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Re: OCA
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2009, 03:36:46 AM »
...and they aren't spiritual.

Please tell me what the heck this is supposed to mean.

Offline Orthodoc

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Re: OCA
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2009, 12:41:15 PM »
...and they aren't spiritual.


Please tell me what the heck this is supposed to mean.


What this person means is that their reasons are based on financial reasons rather than spiritual.  And they are  right!

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« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 12:43:50 PM by Orthodoc »
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Offline BrotherAidan

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Re: OCA
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 12:48:58 AM »
...and they aren't spiritual.


Please tell me what the heck this is supposed to mean.


What this person means is that their reasons are based on financial reasons rather than spiritual.  And they are  right!

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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: OCA
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2009, 01:43:38 AM »
Would someone care to explain how the jurisdictionalism in the USA financially benefits the "mother churches"?  I understand that there is a financial element to the churches abroad, but I really think that they are probably just self-sustaining.  I can hardly imagine boatloads of cash going back to the homelands of said churches.  I must be naive...
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 01:43:51 AM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: OCA
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2009, 02:00:57 AM »
Would someone care to explain how the jurisdictionalism in the USA financially benefits the "mother churches"?  I understand that there is a financial element to the churches abroad, but I really think that they are probably just self-sustaining.  I can hardly imagine boatloads of cash going back to the homelands of said churches.  I must be naive...

In ALL cases, the American branch is the richest of the jurisdiction.  There is quite a bit of cash flow, not to mention political influence at stake in the US.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: OCA
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2009, 03:05:13 AM »
In ALL cases, the American branch is the richest of the jurisdiction.  There is quite a bit of cash flow, not to mention political influence at stake in the US.

I don't exactly get your meaning.  Are you saying that the Serbian Orthodox Church in North America is richer than the Serbian Orthodox Church in Serbia?

Offline Basil 320

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Re: OCA
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2009, 03:20:43 AM »
REPLY TO REPLY #15

It's unfortunate, but finances play a significant role in our relationships w/our mother churches abroad.  The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America was giving the Ecumenical Patriarchate 1/2 million dollars a year, as its "logia," while they Patriarchate complained that we weren't giving very much.  The "logia" is up to $750,000.00 this year, I believe.  This is the Archdiocesan budget line item amount and does not include direct contributions made by the faithful, the Philoptohos, the Order of St. Andrew, the parishes, and the Order of AHEPA, among others.

After the fall of Communism in Russia, Ukraine and the Balkan States, IOCC (International Orthodox Christian Charities) was formed in the United States, to serve as the charitable arm of the Orthodox Churches, who didn't have the resources to provide their own charitable services.  IOCC should serve as evidence of what a jurisdictionally unified Orthodoxy in America could do to support the mother churches, both financially and in regard to their civil needs, that could be assisted by the U.S. government.
As clear as this may appear, the mother churches seem to feel their direct control of their eparchies in the west is more beneficial to them, than what a jurisdictionally unified American church could be.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 03:25:26 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2009, 04:42:03 AM »
In ALL cases, the American branch is the richest of the jurisdiction.  There is quite a bit of cash flow, not to mention political influence at stake in the US.


Isa, take a look at this page of *realistic* stats for the American Churches.  It's not all that likely that such small numbers are contributing significant amounts of money to their Churches in the homelands.  The Greeks may be the exception since the desire to keep the "Megali Idea" alive and a presence in Turkey is so strong.

http://www.helleniccomserve.com/OrthodoxStatistics.pdf
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 04:44:39 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: OCA
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2009, 07:16:43 AM »
In ALL cases, the American branch is the richest of the jurisdiction.  There is quite a bit of cash flow, not to mention political influence at stake in the US.


Isa, take a look at this page of *realistic* stats for the American Churches.  It's not all that likely that such small numbers are contributing significant amounts of money to their Churches in the homelands.  The Greeks may be the exception since the desire to keep the "Megali Idea" alive and a presence in Turkey is so strong.

http://www.helleniccomserve.com/OrthodoxStatistics.pdf

The problem is, Father, look at the economies of the home patriarchates.  The Americans need only give out of their abudance.

It doesn't involve just the collection plate in America.  Those in the "home country" are well aware of remitances flowing from families in "diaspora," and that such familiar ties need to be kept from unraveling to keep those funds flowing.  I remember when communism fell, what was the reaction in the OCA (which I was a member then), e.g. one man remarked how wrong it was to have had replaced Slavonic with English now that Russia was free, as if the OCA existed only as ecclesiastical mercantalism.  I am personally aware such activity with Egypt, Syria (where Met. Philip is treated like a head of state when he visits), Jordan  and Palestine (such activity is the only thing that keeps the Arab Orthodox surviving), Greece, Serbia, Slovakia, Poland, Romania and Russia.
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Re: OCA
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2009, 07:33:54 AM »
Church of Poland doesn't have any diaspora structures abroad which could support us (only about 10 former-ROCE's-or-something-like-this parishes which joined us). I've also never heard about any IOCC help in the country.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 07:36:17 AM by mike »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2009, 07:38:49 AM »
The problem is, Father, look at the economies of the home patriarchates.  The Americans need only give out of their abudance.

Since 1991 the Russian Churrch has built 27,000 churches and continues to open three new churches every day of the year.   It is very unlikely that they have needed money from the Russians in the States to accomplish this.  Thanks to a range of concessions from the Government the Russian Church is quite wealthy.

Ditto for the Serbs who are engaged in similar building programme, although on a smaller scale.

Whern it comes to Constantinople, you have to wonder WHY they are taking American money.    What is going on in Constantinople which requires that money - $750,000 this year?   Where are the new churches?  the extensive charitable programmes?  the relief work?  How is it expended by the Patriarchate?  Is it consumed by the Patriarch's travel expenses?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: OCA
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2009, 08:16:38 AM »
The problem is, Father, look at the economies of the home patriarchates.  The Americans need only give out of their abudance.

Since 1991 the Russian Churrch has built 27,000 churches and continues to open three new churches every day of the year.   It is very unlikely that they have needed money from the Russians in the States to accomplish this.  Thanks to a range of concessions from the Government the Russian Church is quite wealthy.

The Russian Church also didn't have a presence in the US to speak of.  In fact, the one parish here in Chicago was shipped, along with the priest, back to Russian in the time you mention.  It remains to be seen how the ROCOR reunion changes the dynamics.

Quote
Ditto for the Serbs who are engaged in similar building programme, although on a smaller scale.

Whern it comes to Constantinople, you have to wonder WHY they are taking American money.    What is going on in Constantinople which requires that money - $750,000 this year?   Where are the new churches?  the extensive charitable programmes?  the relief work?  How is it expended by the Patriarchate?  Is it consumed by the Patriarch's travel expenses?
Part of it is keeping what few Greeks remain put.  There was a bus service that used to (and still does, for all I know) go down the Bosphoros to gather up the Greeks on Church festivals and holidays.  There is also the expenses in keeping up pretenses of being the Orthodox Pope (although he's in Alexandria! ;D).  And knowing the Muslims in general and the Turks in particular, Church renovation is prohibitive, let alone new Churches and ostensible chraity work.

Then's there's legal fees (what ever happened to that suit against the EP for being EP?), security (what of that is allowed: I wouldn't trust the Turkish police), and I'm quite sure bribes, etc.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 08:27:28 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: OCA
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2009, 08:17:20 AM »
Whern it comes to Constantinople, you have to wonder WHY they are taking American money.    What is going on in Constantinople which requires that money - $750,000 this year?   Where are the new churches?  the extensive charitable programmes?  the relief work?  How is it expended by the Patriarchate?  Is it consumed by the Patriarch's travel expenses?

You've got to be kidding me. Things must be markedly different in NZ. $750,000 this year? That's an embarrassingly tiny amount - about the annual budget of a SINGLE GOA parish in some cities here.
I recall very recently reading how difficult the Turkish government has made it for the Patriarchate to continue its missions (schools, orphanages, hospital) in Turkey - most directed at all/any Turk, not just Orthodox. And I've no idea what security costs run for the Phanar - we've not that expense to worry here. And legal expenses?
I'm pretty certain all your questions' answers are available, in detail, but 3/4 million bucks is a paltry sum. A new church in Turkey?...yeah, that's going to happen. We're still trying to stop losing those we have.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: OCA
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2009, 08:52:32 AM »
Quote
Since 1991 the Russian Churrch has built 27,000 churches and continues to open three new churches every day of the year.   It is very unlikely that they have needed money from the Russians in the States to accomplish this.  Thanks to a range of concessions from the Government the Russian Church is quite wealthy.
Quote
The Russian Church also didn't have a presence in the US to speak of.  In fact, the one parish here in Chicago was shipped, along with the priest, back to Russian in the time you mention.  It remains to be seen how the ROCOR reunion changes the dynamics.


Are we still speaking of finances?  The Russian Church Abroad operates on the widow's mite.   This may slowly change as the tens of thosands of new immigrants are churched and begin to contribute financially.

But at this time most of our clergy live close to penury.

Fr Alexander Lebedeff has addressed this in a message he sent to Indiana...

https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0006A&L=ORTHODOX&P=R8636

"....The fact is that with very few exceptions the clergy of the Church Abroad
receive a salary that is so far below the poverty line, that all of these
clergymen and their families would be easily eligible for welfare...."

Offline Fr. George

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Re: OCA
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2009, 09:05:11 AM »
Whern it comes to Constantinople, you have to wonder WHY they are taking American money.    What is going on in Constantinople which requires that money - $750,000 this year?   Where are the new churches?  the extensive charitable programmes?  the relief work?  How is it expended by the Patriarchate?  Is it consumed by the Patriarch's travel expenses?

A few notes...

When I went to Constantinople in 2006, I believed that the US Archons and Archdiocese made up a major part of the Patriarchate's income stream, and that they (EP) should be more grateful than they appear to be (and more accommodating).  I too wondered where the missionary efforts were, and wondered what they were doing wrong to be losing so many of the faithful who were permitted to stay in Constantinople.  While I had the historical perspective on the persecution of the Rum (Roman/Greeks in Turkey) that continues to this day, I had no idea about the widespread extent and brutal severity of it.

In Constantinople, I got a wake-up call.  (1) The government of Greece is the major supporter of the Patriarchate, providing enough money for most of the salaries, living expenses, heavy taxes, legal fees, etc. that are needed.  American money, while not insignificant, certainly would not be able to support the Patriarchate, seeing as the Patriarchate supports not only itself but the active Churches, monasteries, schools, and the hospital.

(2) The persecution of the Rum and the Church is active, widespread, constant, oppressive, and nearly impossible to stem.  The government routinely seizes Churches (hence, why the EP needs legal money); they will not permit the construction of new Churches; since much of the "wealth" of the Church is tied to the hundreds of Churches it owned, it has been left in a compromised position thanks to these seizures.  It is even impossible to perform repair work on the existing Churches, leaving many of them in dangerous states, close to collapse (Agia Sophia is not free from this - the government had under-funded its own "museum" for so long that it needs extensive repair work now).  The Patriarchate does perform charitable work - the operation of the hospital sits at the forefront, where they do not question potential patients about their faith or political leanings, but treat all equally, and often times for no remuneration.  However, their charitable activities are severely crimped by the restrictions on movement and public activity placed upon them by the government.  In essence, the EP and the parishes within the Archdiocese of Constantinople (as well as the neighboring Archdiocese and Metropolises that have been absorbed into the city limits of Istambul) must operate as a mix between a catacomb Church and an open one.  And then there is the issue of the Muslim zealots who are constantly looking to kill members of the Patriarchate, damage the buildings, and disrupt life so as to drive all Christians out of Turkey for good.

However, as we discovered in our travels around the city, their activity and persecution does not go unnoticed.  We spoke with a number of people who were sympathetic to the plight of the Rum and the Rum Patriarchate; still others who had married an Orthodox person and who were raising their children as Orthodox Christians; still others who speculated that there were many "secret Christians" who only awaited the freedom to express this without death threats from their Muslim neighbors and "Secularist" government.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 09:06:27 AM by cleveland »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2009, 09:18:57 AM »
Is the OCA considered schismatic and out of communion by those who don't recognize its autocephalecy?
Schismatic? No.
We just don't recognize it's autocephaly.
As for those of you who would deny any help to the Persecuted Churches- I personally consider you worse than schismatics.
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Re: OCA
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2009, 10:07:28 AM »
Is the OCA considered schismatic and out of communion by those who don't recognize its autocephalecy?
Schismatic? No.
We just don't recognize it's autocephaly.
As for those of you who would deny any help to the Persecuted Churches- I personally consider you worse than schismatics.

I wonder who's worse. The external enemy or the one from within.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2009, 10:21:48 AM »
Is the OCA considered schismatic and out of communion by those who don't recognize its autocephalecy?
Schismatic? No.
We just don't recognize it's autocephaly.
As for those of you who would deny any help to the Persecuted Churches- I personally consider you worse than schismatics.

I wonder who's worse. The external enemy or the one from within.
There's no difference. Anyone who would begrudge any help being given to Orthodox Christians who are being actively persecuted yet who refuse to surrender their Faith, that person is not only outside the Church, they are a Crucifier.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 10:22:24 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: OCA
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2009, 11:24:02 AM »
Is the OCA considered schismatic and out of communion by those who don't recognize its autocephalecy?
Schismatic? No.
We just don't recognize it's autocephaly.
As for those of you who would deny any help to the Persecuted Churches- I personally consider you worse than schismatics.

I wonder who's worse. The external enemy or the one from within.
There's no difference. Anyone who would begrudge any help being given to Orthodox Christians who are being actively persecuted yet who refuse to surrender their Faith, that person is not only outside the Church, they are a Crucifier.

Just so I'm clear on this: you aren't equating autocephalacy with refusing help to persecuted Churches, are you?
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Re: OCA
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2009, 02:09:33 PM »
We have a one time a year collection for the Patriarchate.  I would imagine the amount collected is not that large.  I am glad we continue to directly support our first among equals though.

Offline BrotherAidan

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Re: OCA
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2009, 08:40:26 PM »
No Old World patriarch is going to recognize the autocephaly of an Orthodox Church in America that is not from their jurisdiction for obvious reasons, and they aren't spiritual. That's not a criticism on my part, just an acceptance of reality.
Especially not as long as the Ecumenical Throne claims rightful jurisdiction here according to his interpretation of Canon 28 of Chalcedon.
Do you really think the claims of jurisdiction over territory that not only had not been discovered but that they did not have even the slightest fathom it existed gives the EP jurisdictional preference in the Americas?

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Re: OCA
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2009, 08:53:57 PM »
What has this to do with the OCA?
Vultures & Crucifiers.
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Re: OCA
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2009, 08:56:15 PM »
Is the OCA considered schismatic and out of communion by those who don't recognize its autocephalecy?
Schismatic? No.
We just don't recognize it's autocephaly.
As for those of you who would deny any help to the Persecuted Churches- I personally consider you worse than schismatics.

George
no one is saying to abandon the Mother Churches. I would venture that a "free will" support of the Mother Churches in general and the EP in particular would rise if they would entrust the American Church with autocephaly. It is the Mother Churches problem that they have no faith to trust, NOT the American Church.

And this leads to a larger issue of stewardship. Othodoxy has to get away from head taxes and dues and get to free will giving. Evangelicals raise billions this way [timeout - for a second - I am not talking TV evangelists, so DO NOT ANYONE bring them up as a rebuttal - I am talking about responsible and credible organizations like World Vision, Prison Fellowship, some of the world missions organizations (whose names I can no longer remember) etc.]. Orthodoxy can do it as well. We need to trust ourselves in this regard and the Old World Churches need to trust us as well.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 08:58:38 PM by BrotherAidan »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: OCA
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2009, 09:02:08 PM »
I would venture that a "free will" support of the Mother Churches in general and the EP in particular would rise if they would entrust the American Church with autocephaly.

I see. So truth has nothing to do with anything. Canons have nothing to do with anything. The Amercian way of "truth" is "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours".
You have corrupted Christianity beyond recognition. This is why you should never be granted autocephaly.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Veniamin

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Re: OCA
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2009, 09:04:29 PM »
I would venture that a "free will" support of the Mother Churches in general and the EP in particular would rise if they would entrust the American Church with autocephaly.

I see. So truth has nothing to do with anything. Canons have nothing to do with anything. The Amercian way of "truth" is "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours".
You have corrupted Christianity beyond recognition. This is why you should never be granted autocephaly.

Uh, you've completely lost me now.  ???
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Re: OCA
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2009, 09:13:28 PM »
What has this to do with the OCA?
Vultures & Crucifiers.
How so?  You've already alleged that the OCA does not send money back to the persecuted Old Country churches, thus earning the title "Crucifiers" in your mind.  How are the OCA also vultures?

You've also intimated that the OCA stands outside the Church as WORSE than schismatics.  Does this mean you deem yourself not in communion with the OCA?
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Re: OCA
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2009, 09:14:54 PM »
Uh, you've completely lost me now.  ???

It's quite simple. Anyone who thinks that autocephaly baqsed on nationalism is a "right" which is being "denied" doesn't understand the Orthodox Church which is the Body of Christ. Anyone who will only willingly support those who are persecuted in the Church "if" their particular uncanonical demands for a nationalistic Church are met do not understand the Church which is the Body of Christ. Why should any local Chuch which does not understand the Church which is the Body of Christ be entrusted with autocephaly?
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Re: OCA
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2009, 09:20:01 PM »
I would venture that a "free will" support of the Mother Churches in general and the EP in particular would rise if they would entrust the American Church with autocephaly.

I see. So truth has nothing to do with anything.
How has the OCA departed from the truth?

Canons have nothing to do with anything.
How has the OCA violated the Canons?

The Amercian way of "truth" is "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours".
You have corrupted Christianity beyond recognition.
How so?  I need specifics.  So far, all I've seen from you is vitriolic generalities.

This is why you should never be granted autocephaly.
Fair enough if you want to think that.  After seeing where we've been the past 20 years, I don't know that we deserve autocephaly myself, and I'm not sure what good autocephaly serves us right now.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 09:23:28 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: OCA
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2009, 09:20:55 PM »
I would venture that a "free will" support of the Mother Churches in general and the EP in particular would rise if they would entrust the American Church with autocephaly.

I see. So truth has nothing to do with anything. Canons have nothing to do with anything. The Amercian way of "truth" is "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours".
You have corrupted Christianity beyond recognition. This is why you should never be granted autocephaly.
What? ???
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 09:22:34 PM by BrotherAidan »

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Re: OCA
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2009, 09:21:29 PM »
You've also intimated that the OCA stands outside the Church as WORSE than schismatics. 
That is a blatant lie Peter.
Here is what I said right after I said the OCA is not considered schismatic:
As for those of you who would deny any help to the Persecuted Churches- I personally consider you worse than schismatics.
Does the OCA begrudge any assistance to the Persecuted Great Church of Christ? If so, then yes, I consider it worse than schismatic, but I make it quite clear that I don't believe this is the case generally.
Where do lies come from Peter?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 09:22:21 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline antiderivative

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Re: OCA
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2009, 09:26:55 PM »
Quote
It's quite simple. Anyone who thinks that autocephaly baqsed on nationalism is a "right" which is being "denied" doesn't understand the Orthodox Church which is the Body of Christ. Anyone who will only willingly support those who are persecuted in the Church "if" their particular uncanonical demands for a nationalistic Church are met do not understand the Church which is the Body of Christ. Why should any local Chuch which does not understand the Church which is the Body of Christ be entrusted with autocephaly?

Actually, many join the OCA to escape the nationalism found in Greek, and other ethnic churches. People are even shunned out of Orthodoxy based off race here in America, since many churches have become culture clubs. In fact, the OCA has less American nationalism than any church I've been to. Ironically, many people in my church are extremely critical of America culture.
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Re: OCA
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2009, 09:27:33 PM »
You've also intimated that the OCA stands outside the Church as WORSE than schismatics. 
That is a blatant lie Peter.
Here is what I said right after I said the OCA is not considered schismatic:
As for those of you who would deny any help to the Persecuted Churches- I personally consider you worse than schismatics.
Does the OCA begrudge any assistance to the Persecuted Great Church of Christ? If so, then yes, I consider it worse than schismatic, but I make it quite clear that I don't believe this is the case generally.
Where do lies come from Peter?
George, you need to take a walk around the block, get some fresh air. Then come back and read what you have posted in response to NOTHING that anyone explicitly stated (no one suggested abondoning the Mother Churches; one person questioned some practices of the EP - perhaps lacking knowledge on the dire straights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; but nowhere near being judged a schismatic and crucifier).Then re-join this discussion when you can contribute rationally.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 09:28:35 PM by BrotherAidan »

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Re: OCA
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2009, 09:28:50 PM »
How has the OCA departed from the truth?
Through the heresy of phyletism.

How has the OCA violated the Canons?
Through the heresy of phyletism.

The Amercian way of "truth" is "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours".
You have corrupted Christianity beyond recognition.
How so?  I need specifics.  So far, all I've seen from you is vitriolic generalities.
Through the heresy of phyletism.

You guys wish to follow the bad example of the Church of Greece which was granted autocephaly contrary to the Canons for the sake of peace in the Church. You now consider this a "right". It is not a right.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.