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Author Topic: Has the Vatican Based Dogmatic Statements on Apparitions of the Theotokos?  (Read 1690 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: January 23, 2009, 09:58:18 AM »

The following thread split off from here:  Orthodoxy of the Church Fathers


No. That's an Orthodox tendency the Protestants kept.  (with the Vatican getting the Theotokos in "apparitions" involved in issuing dogmatic statements, I have my doubts there).

Why? Can't we have at least one thread where you don't post some anti-Catholic vitriolic non-sense. This thread had nothing to do with Orthodox/Catholic relations, and yet you seem to not be able to resist to slide in some insult against Catholicism and the Catholic Church -- and a wholly inaccurate insult at that.

Inaccurate?

Many believe this Marian dogma [of Coredemptrix] will initiate the Triumph of our Blessed Mother over Satan, as foretold in Genesis and at Fatima. It is the key that unlocks the graces of the triumph. Her titles are her works, her titles are her functions, and the solemn proclamation of our Mother’s titles will lead to the full release of her most powerful sanctifying functions of grace and peace for the many crises experienced in the contemporary Church and world. It will allow her to intercede with the fullest possible mediation given to her by God for this triumph, for the Church and for humanity.
The consecration of the world, inclusive of Russia, to the Immaculate Heart was completed, fulfilling the request of Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima. Why was it so important? Because it allowed our Blessed Mother to intercede in a powerful way. She respects our freedom just as God the Father respects our freedom. Our Heavenly Mother is limited by our freedom in exercising her full God-given power of mediation and intercession. We must freely acknowledge her as the Mother of all Peoples, Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of all Graces, and Advocate so that she can fully exercise these roles for us at this watershed of human history, for the many crises experienced in the contemporary Church and world. Among these graces will be the grace necessary for an authentic Christian unity and reaffirmation of the authority of the papal Magisterium for the fruit of greater ecclesial unity.
http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=207:frequently-asked-question-7&catid=106:faqs&Itemid=620

After the inspired Word of Sacred Scripture and the doctrinal grace of the Catholic Catechism, I believe the third book that every Fatima devotee should have close at hand is the book of Sister Lucia, "Calls" From the Message of Fatima, which was released in English in 2002. A work truly directed by the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, "Calls" From the Message of Fatima constitutes a veritable Marian catechism of faith and life, written in a down to earth mode, which can be grasped by all members of the Faith and all people of good will. I have no personal doubt that Sister Lucia's recent masterpiece will eventually become a spiritual classic, rightfully identified as the fruits of a mystic and of a saint.

It is for this reason that I would like to isolate one of the foundational pearls of Sister Lucia's great work for its deserved appreciation, namely her predominant mariological theme of Our Lady as the "Co-redemptrix of the human race." Second only to the Marian title of "The Immaculate Heart of Mary," Mary Co-redemptrix is the most often cited and principal Marian theme presented by Sister Lucia throughout the book. Our Lady's coredemptive role with and under Jesus Christ in the accomplishment of Redemption is explained and expounded upon throughout the text, and always in ways which bring new appreciation to the unique role of the Mother of Jesus, as the New Eve with and under the New Adam, in the accomplishment of our Redemption.

Pope John Paul II has also, on three occasions, called all Christians to be "co-redeemers" (2) with Jesus Christ in distributing the graces of Redemption to today's world, and Sister Lucia likewise accentuates Our Mother's Fatima call for redemptive sacrifice as a foundational principal for living the message of Fatima.
Part of the genius of Sister Lucia's treatment of Our Lady's role as Co-redemptrix is its concrete application to the Christian call to holiness which should convict the heart of every Christian and, especially, every son and daughter of the Fatima message. In her section on "The Call to Holiness" (Chapter 21), the author offers the example of Our Lady in her model of holiness as a devoted wife in the fulfillment of all the duties of her state in life:

In seeking to assist us in a deeper penetration into the bottomless mysteries of the Rosary, our Fatima visionary guides the soul through a meditation on the Fourth Joyful Mystery, The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple, in Chapter 35, "Contemplation of the Joyful Mysteries." Here she explains that the Mother of Jesus does not simply offer her Son to the perfect will of the Father, but she offers herself with Christ to God, and specifically as the Co-redemptrix with Christ for the salvation of all humanity:

It is no accident that Sister Lucia repeatedly calls the reader to understand in mind and heart Our Lady's role as Co-redemptrix of the human race. Every child of Fatima is called to recognize the glorious role of the Mother of All Peoples in the work of Redemption, as well as to imitate our coredemptive Mother by offering our daily sacrifices, and by understanding that every daily cross, great or small, is one designated by God for the redemption of souls and our own sanctification. Indeed we are all called to "make up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, which is the Church" (Col. 1:24).

The recognition and acknowledgment of Mary Co-redemptrix is indeed a central part of the Fatima message, as testified by Sister Lucia in "Calls" From the Message of Fatima and constitutes in itself an essential component of the fulfillment of the Fatima messages in our own time.

Our beloved Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, is presently discerning the worldwide petition for the solemn definition of Our Lady as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces and Advocate, as submitted by over 500 cardinals and bishops, nearly 7 million Catholic faithful spanning 145 countries, and including such contemporary lights as the late Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Mother Angelica, the late John Cardinal O'Connor, and the late John Haffert, co-founder of the Blue Army. Let us join our prayers and sacrifices to this petition, that the entire Church and world will soon officially acknowledge that which Sister Lucia conveys to us in "Calls" From the Message of Fatima: that Mary is, with and under Jesus our Divine Redeemer, the Co-redemptrix of the human race. Let us daily pray that Our Lady can be "released" by the solemn proclamation so that she may be able to fully intercede for all the graces necessary for the Triumph of her Most Immaculate Heart, and hence to bring ultimate fulfillment to her quintessential Fatima promise, that "in the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph…and a period of peace will be granted to the world" (July 13th, 1917).
http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=266:sister-lucia-and-mary-co-redemptrix&catid=110:saints-and-sensus-fidelium&Itemid=580
July 13th, 1917?  Odd citation of scripture. Roll Eyes

And of course the role of the vision of the "miraculous medal" before and Lourdes after in the promulgation of the IC.

The Orthdox Christian Information Center has an aritcle, good on many points, of the role "Marian Apparitions" have assumed in dogma, and other points.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

The fact is, via "apparitions," a lot of dogma is being put forth.  This is in contrast to the Fathers, who depended on the deposit of Faith, not adding to it.






« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 06:16:22 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2009, 05:47:16 PM »

Inaccurate?

Many believe this Marian dogma [of Coredemptrix] will initiate the Triumph of our Blessed Mother over Satan, as foretold in Genesis and at Fatima. It is the key that unlocks the graces of the triumph. Her titles are her works, her titles are her functions, and the solemn proclamation of our Mother’s titles will lead to the full release of her most powerful sanctifying functions of grace and peace for the many crises experienced in the contemporary Church and world. It will allow her to intercede with the fullest possible mediation given to her by God for this triumph, for the Church and for humanity.
The consecration of the world, inclusive of Russia, to the Immaculate Heart was completed, fulfilling the request of Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima. Why was it so important? Because it allowed our Blessed Mother to intercede in a powerful way. She respects our freedom just as God the Father respects our freedom. Our Heavenly Mother is limited by our freedom in exercising her full God-given power of mediation and intercession. We must freely acknowledge her as the Mother of all Peoples, Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of all Graces, and Advocate so that she can fully exercise these roles for us at this watershed of human history, for the many crises experienced in the contemporary Church and world. Among these graces will be the grace necessary for an authentic Christian unity and reaffirmation of the authority of the papal Magisterium for the fruit of greater ecclesial unity.
http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=207:frequently-asked-question-7&catid=106:faqs&Itemid=620

After the inspired Word of Sacred Scripture and the doctrinal grace of the Catholic Catechism, I believe the third book that every Fatima devotee should have close at hand is the book of Sister Lucia, "Calls" From the Message of Fatima, which was released in English in 2002. A work truly directed by the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, "Calls" From the Message of Fatima constitutes a veritable Marian catechism of faith and life, written in a down to earth mode, which can be grasped by all members of the Faith and all people of good will. I have no personal doubt that Sister Lucia's recent masterpiece will eventually become a spiritual classic, rightfully identified as the fruits of a mystic and of a saint.

It is for this reason that I would like to isolate one of the foundational pearls of Sister Lucia's great work for its deserved appreciation, namely her predominant mariological theme of Our Lady as the "Co-redemptrix of the human race." Second only to the Marian title of "The Immaculate Heart of Mary," Mary Co-redemptrix is the most often cited and principal Marian theme presented by Sister Lucia throughout the book. Our Lady's coredemptive role with and under Jesus Christ in the accomplishment of Redemption is explained and expounded upon throughout the text, and always in ways which bring new appreciation to the unique role of the Mother of Jesus, as the New Eve with and under the New Adam, in the accomplishment of our Redemption.

Pope John Paul II has also, on three occasions, called all Christians to be "co-redeemers" (2) with Jesus Christ in distributing the graces of Redemption to today's world, and Sister Lucia likewise accentuates Our Mother's Fatima call for redemptive sacrifice as a foundational principal for living the message of Fatima.
Part of the genius of Sister Lucia's treatment of Our Lady's role as Co-redemptrix is its concrete application to the Christian call to holiness which should convict the heart of every Christian and, especially, every son and daughter of the Fatima message. In her section on "The Call to Holiness" (Chapter 21), the author offers the example of Our Lady in her model of holiness as a devoted wife in the fulfillment of all the duties of her state in life:

In seeking to assist us in a deeper penetration into the bottomless mysteries of the Rosary, our Fatima visionary guides the soul through a meditation on the Fourth Joyful Mystery, The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple, in Chapter 35, "Contemplation of the Joyful Mysteries." Here she explains that the Mother of Jesus does not simply offer her Son to the perfect will of the Father, but she offers herself with Christ to God, and specifically as the Co-redemptrix with Christ for the salvation of all humanity:

It is no accident that Sister Lucia repeatedly calls the reader to understand in mind and heart Our Lady's role as Co-redemptrix of the human race. Every child of Fatima is called to recognize the glorious role of the Mother of All Peoples in the work of Redemption, as well as to imitate our coredemptive Mother by offering our daily sacrifices, and by understanding that every daily cross, great or small, is one designated by God for the redemption of souls and our own sanctification. Indeed we are all called to "make up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, which is the Church" (Col. 1:24).

The recognition and acknowledgment of Mary Co-redemptrix is indeed a central part of the Fatima message, as testified by Sister Lucia in "Calls" From the Message of Fatima and constitutes in itself an essential component of the fulfillment of the Fatima messages in our own time.

Our beloved Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, is presently discerning the worldwide petition for the solemn definition of Our Lady as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces and Advocate, as submitted by over 500 cardinals and bishops, nearly 7 million Catholic faithful spanning 145 countries, and including such contemporary lights as the late Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Mother Angelica, the late John Cardinal O'Connor, and the late John Haffert, co-founder of the Blue Army. Let us join our prayers and sacrifices to this petition, that the entire Church and world will soon officially acknowledge that which Sister Lucia conveys to us in "Calls" From the Message of Fatima: that Mary is, with and under Jesus our Divine Redeemer, the Co-redemptrix of the human race. Let us daily pray that Our Lady can be "released" by the solemn proclamation so that she may be able to fully intercede for all the graces necessary for the Triumph of her Most Immaculate Heart, and hence to bring ultimate fulfillment to her quintessential Fatima promise, that "in the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph…and a period of peace will be granted to the world" (July 13th, 1917).
http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=266:sister-lucia-and-mary-co-redemptrix&catid=110:saints-and-sensus-fidelium&Itemid=580
July 13th, 1917?  Odd citation of scripture. Roll Eyes

And of course the role of the vision of the "miraculous medal" before and Lourdes after in the promulgation of the IC.

The Orthdox Christian Information Center has an aritcle, good on many points, of the role "Marian Apparitions" have assumed in dogma, and other points.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

The fact is, via "apparitions," a lot of dogma is being put forth.  This is in contrast to the Fathers, who depended on the deposit of Faith, not adding to it.


I'll only make one reply on this here - so I won't make the moderators too upset (hopefully). If you want to continue this, please respond in the Orthodox-Catholic forum.


There has never been one dogma proclaimed because of an apparition. Yes, the Catholic Church does approve of certain apparitions (i.e., Fatima, Guadalupe) and proclaim them worthy of belief, but belief in them is not obligatory. Note that Medjugorje is not approved by the Church (and likely never will be).

That said, there are messages from the apparitions which are beneficial to the members of the Catholic Church. For example, at Fatima, the primary message was: Pray and do penance!!! Do you find something wrong in being given a friendly reminder of a basic Christian duty?

Do you ignore the fact that apparitions are present in Orthodoxy? Should I assume that you implore the Blessed Mother's aid because she appeared over Constantinople and protected it -- an event that became a feast (The Protection of the Mother of God). Or that you received dogma from Saint Michael's intercession at Chonae -- which is also the basis of his feast in the East.
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2009, 06:29:01 PM »

There has never been one dogma proclaimed because of an apparition.
That may be true, but I have had a Catholic (former) roommate argue that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception must be true because the Theotokos once appeared to a girl name Bernadette and called herself the Immaculate Conception.  How is this all that much different from basing a dogma on proclamations made directly by a Marian apparition?
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2009, 07:38:36 PM »

There has never been one dogma proclaimed because of an apparition.
That may be true, but I have had a Catholic (former) roommate argue that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception must be true because the Theotokos once appeared to a girl name Bernadette and called herself the Immaculate Conception.  How is this all that much different from basing a dogma on proclamations made directly by a Marian apparition?

That would be a confirmation to your former roommate (and for many others). I recall an Orthodox poster citing a Russian Orthodox liturgical book about what to do in the event of a eucharistic miracle. Among other things, it stating that this was to embolden the faith of those present to witness it. Same basic concept, it is a re-confirmation of the faith. But, the primary message of Lourdes wasn't that Our Lady is the Immaculate Conception, but of the sanctity of prayer, poverty, penance, and the Church.

I am not trying to minimize the importance of valid apparitions -- they are a great boon to the faith and they usually bring an urgent message to repent and pray. But, I am also not defending those Christians who rush off after every shadow in vain hope of witnessing a potential miracle. We must be open to the ordinary means by which God chooses to communicate with us.

"God comes to us through the ordinary, through the bread and wine [of Communion] and through the pastor as shepherd. As a pastor, I would say people should seek [the] ordinary means Christ has given to the church and not seek signs and wonders." (Bishop D'Arcy -- Catholic Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend)


That all said, the Catholic Church didn't dogmatize the Immaculate Conception because of Lourdes (which was several years in the future). The Catholic Church teaches repeatedly that public revelation ended with the death of Saint John the Apostle. Any private revelations (of which visions and apparitions are), do not add to nor subtract from the received Deposit of Faith. We may celebrate them, learn from their message, etc. -- but the Catholic Church doesn't get new public revelation from them.
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 07:49:22 PM »

There has never been one dogma proclaimed because of an apparition.
That may be true, but I have had a Catholic (former) roommate argue that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception must be true because the Theotokos once appeared to a girl name Bernadette and called herself the Immaculate Conception.  How is this all that much different from basing a dogma on proclamations made directly by a Marian apparition?

That's seriously misguided, especially considering the Lourdes apparition came four years AFTER the dogma.

The dogma came not from apparitions but from the sensus fidelium. The Immaculate Conception has been a universal feast of the Church since the 15th century. The main thing preventing it from being established as dogma earlier was the fact that the enormously influential theologian St. Thomas Aquinas did not believe it occurred at the moment of her conception.

Regarding apparitions, to be honest, I do not pay much attention to them. They are "private revelation," free to be believed or not---I am still buried up to my neck learning about public revelation.
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2009, 08:03:16 PM »

There has never been one dogma proclaimed because of an apparition.
That may be true, but I have had a Catholic (former) roommate argue that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception must be true because the Theotokos once appeared to a girl name Bernadette and called herself the Immaculate Conception.  How is this all that much different from basing a dogma on proclamations made directly by a Marian apparition?

That's seriously misguided, especially considering the Lourdes apparition came four years AFTER the dogma.
Misguided to cite the Lourdes apparition as evidence for the truth of the Immaculate Conception?
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2009, 11:10:06 PM »

There has never been one dogma proclaimed because of an apparition.
That may be true, but I have had a Catholic (former) roommate argue that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception must be true because the Theotokos once appeared to a girl name Bernadette and called herself the Immaculate Conception.  How is this all that much different from basing a dogma on proclamations made directly by a Marian apparition?

That's seriously misguided, especially considering the Lourdes apparition came four years AFTER the dogma.
Misguided to cite the Lourdes apparition as evidence for the truth of the Immaculate Conception?

I think he was referring to attempting to state that the apparitions of Lourdes was instrumental in dogmatize the doctrine as what was misguided.
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2009, 12:40:20 AM »

There has never been one dogma proclaimed because of an apparition.
That may be true, but I have had a Catholic (former) roommate argue that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception must be true because the Theotokos once appeared to a girl name Bernadette and called herself the Immaculate Conception.  How is this all that much different from basing a dogma on proclamations made directly by a Marian apparition?

That's seriously misguided, especially considering the Lourdes apparition came four years AFTER the dogma.
Misguided to cite the Lourdes apparition as evidence for the truth of the Immaculate Conception?

I think he was referring to attempting to state that the apparitions of Lourdes was instrumental in dogmatize the doctrine as what was misguided.
Of course, I must not have expressed myself clearly, then, since I wasn't talking about Pope Pius IX using Lourdes to support his proclamation of the IC as dogma.  But, even if the Lourdes apparition occurred AFTER 1854 (the year the IC was made a dogma), the use of this apparition to prove the truth of the already proclaimed dogma still makes my point valid.
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2009, 08:17:17 AM »

There has never been one dogma proclaimed because of an apparition.
That may be true, but I have had a Catholic (former) roommate argue that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception must be true because the Theotokos once appeared to a girl name Bernadette and called herself the Immaculate Conception.  How is this all that much different from basing a dogma on proclamations made directly by a Marian apparition?

That's seriously misguided, especially considering the Lourdes apparition came four years AFTER the dogma.
Misguided to cite the Lourdes apparition as evidence for the truth of the Immaculate Conception?

I think he was referring to attempting to state that the apparitions of Lourdes was instrumental in dogmatize the doctrine as what was misguided.
Of course, I must not have expressed myself clearly, then, since I wasn't talking about Pope Pius IX using Lourdes to support his proclamation of the IC as dogma.  But, even if the Lourdes apparition occurred AFTER 1854 (the year the IC was made a dogma), the use of this apparition to prove the truth of the already proclaimed dogma still makes my point valid.

I recall in several lives of Benadette (not all hagiography) that the local cleric was excited about the IC proclamation, as they wanted to promote it, like the "miraculous medal."

Lourdes and Fatima may not be binding on the Vatican's faithful, but try to deny them and live to tell the tale.  Many cite them more than scripture.  Curiously, Guadalupe doesn't seem to have this same type of fanaticism (i.e., it's not used to support the title "Theotokos").  Time difference?

That would be a confirmation to your former roommate (and for many others). I recall an Orthodox poster citing a Russian Orthodox liturgical book about what to do in the event of a eucharistic miracle. Among other things, it stating that this was to embolden the faith of those present to witness it. Same basic concept, it is a re-confirmation of the faith. But, the primary message of Lourdes wasn't that Our Lady is the Immaculate Conception, but of the sanctity of prayer, poverty, penance, and the Church.

I don't recall such miracles being used by the Orthodox (except Old Calendarists) to prove anything to anyone else, or to argue a certain dogma.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 08:21:01 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2009, 08:31:28 AM »



That said, there are messages from the apparitions which are beneficial to the members of the Catholic Church. For example, at Fatima, the primary message was: Pray and do penance!!! Do you find something wrong in being given a friendly reminder of a basic Christian duty?

The Baptist preaching on the corner soap box has the same message, used to promote his brand of the Bible.

Quote
Do you ignore the fact that apparitions are present in Orthodoxy? Should I assume that you implore the Blessed Mother's aid because she appeared over Constantinople and protected it -- an event that became a feast (The Protection of the Mother of God). Or that you received dogma from Saint Michael's intercession at Chonae -- which is also the basis of his feast in the East.

No, I don't ignore apparitions in Ortodoxy exist, just note the stark contrast among us and among those under the Vatican.

The Sub Tuum Praesidium predates the Protection by quite a bit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_the_Theotokos

I don't implore her aid because of a 10th century event.  I do so from 1st century events.
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2009, 08:36:28 AM »







The Baptist preaching on the corner soap box has the same message, used to promote his brand of the Bible.

.


HeHeHe HaHaHa,,,,Funny
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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2009, 12:17:31 AM »

On another forum  police Roll Eyes police on a thread brought to my attention from a poster, someone is trying to prove purgatory from the visions of Fatima, with the taunt "was Our Lady wrong?"
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=4725146#post4725146
To answer his question: the Bible says that the rich man was in hell, explicitely (how he misses that I can't see), so if the vision of Fatima says that the rich man was in purgatory, then the vision is wrong, in which case it wasn't our Lady.
Btw, this is precisely what told me Medjugorje can't be true.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 12:21:00 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2009, 12:45:43 AM »

I always found it ludicrous when people would try to use apparition (Marian or otherwise) to "prove" theological or dogmatic statements, and I know that even the Roman Catholic members in this section will agree with me.  The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has stated countless times that these apparitions have been private revelations and belief in them is subject to personal choice and devotion.  No one *MUST* believe in these apparitions, they have just been deemed approved/acceptable by the Roman Catholic Church magisterium.  You are just going to run into dead end after dead end debating with someone that something that is subject to personal devotion proves or expands on dogma.  When I was Roman Catholic, I did not believe in the vast majority of apparitions, and sure, it will lead to some great debates (and some not so great ones  Roll Eyes), but that is just how I felt.  Were some people dumbfounded?  Yup.  Were some people insulted?  Strangely, yes, sometimes.  Did I care?  Nope, I did not see them as being something that would assist me spiritually, nor was it an issue with me and my confessor.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 12:46:33 AM by Nebelpfade » Logged

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Tags: Theotokos apparitions 
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