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Author Topic: Calls for removal of "anti-Semitic" imagery in Orthodox Liturgy  (Read 19514 times) Average Rating: 0
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Michał Kalina
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« Reply #180 on: May 08, 2013, 03:36:27 PM »

mine:

ethnicity: a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, on the basis of a real or a presumed common genealogy or ancestry, behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next. the non-biological part is the decisive one.

citizen: a native or naturalized member of a state who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection

nation: nation may refer to a a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, religion, or history

*"in general" to all
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 03:39:32 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #181 on: May 08, 2013, 04:06:41 PM »

mine:

ethnicity: a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, on the basis of a real or a presumed common genealogy or ancestry, behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next. the non-biological part is the decisive one.

citizen: a native or naturalized member of a state who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection

nation: nation may refer to a a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, religion, or history

*"in general" to all

The nation state is historically a fairly recent innovation. Ethnic Poles along with a wide range of others would have been subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but would have been neither Austrians or Hungarians. In the UK the passport describes holders as British citizens, but they may be English, Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish. Citizens of the PRC may be Han Chinese, Tibetans, Uighurs, etc.

Mislabelling can cause real offence, a good example of this those who identify the UK as England. True 80 per cent of the population live in England but calling a Scot English can lead to an explosive and verbally colourful response.
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« Reply #182 on: May 08, 2013, 04:20:55 PM »

Ethnic Poles along with a wide range of others would have been subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but would have been neither Austrians or Hungarians.
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...). Even today's Austria has a majority of ethnic Germans and Slovene, Croatian, Hungarian etc. minorities.

Citizens of the Hungarian part of the empire were Hungarians without distinction (kind of like the French model). All ethnical or cultural differences were to disappear through assimilation. (That's also the reason why Caraptho-Rusyns don't consider themselves Ukrainians, but that's another story.)
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« Reply #183 on: May 08, 2013, 05:37:03 PM »

Christ is risen!
For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.

I disagree.

Do you think his brown skin will disappear? Or maybe that his eyes will turn blue? Ethnicity is about genetics. Culture is about community.
If he is light enough, he can pass.

Or he can become black.

Genetics isn't dispositive for ethnicity. If it were, Indians and Slavs would be the same.


For some ethnicities (e.g. Iranian, Turks, etc), genetics do not play a role at all.
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« Reply #184 on: May 08, 2013, 05:42:05 PM »

Ethnic Poles along with a wide range of others would have been subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but would have been neither Austrians or Hungarians.
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...). Even today's Austria has a majority of ethnic Germans and Slovene, Croatian, Hungarian etc. minorities.

Citizens of the Hungarian part of the empire were Hungarians without distinction (kind of like the French model). All ethnical or cultural differences were to disappear through assimilation. (That's also the reason why Caraptho-Rusyns don't consider themselves Ukrainians, but that's another story.)
so the bureaucrats in Vienna and Budapest thought, but peoples involved proved otherwise. The Poles even have a monument to that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Lublin_Mound
with irony-and justice-it is in Ukraine now.
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« Reply #185 on: May 08, 2013, 05:47:15 PM »

Before we go further, agreed upon definitions are in order for Ethnicity, Culture, Citizenship, and Nationality.
Culture-the customs of a group of people.
Ethnicity-a culture whose people see their customs setting themselves apart from others.
Nationality-a culture with an army and navy.
Citizenship-a nationality telling you what you are, often with the help of its army and navy.
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« Reply #186 on: May 08, 2013, 07:13:43 PM »

Pascha brought home something of note. I would identify myself as being American by nationality, American culturally and Carpatho-Rusyn ethnically - I think....

What was brought home to us was the endurance of ethnic heritage within the confines of vastly differing cultures. A Facebook friend I do not personally know was visiting the common ancestral villages she shares with me and my wife  from the Slovak region of Saris, near the Polish border. She posted a series of pictures of her visit from preparing the Paschal foods, to Church services to the family meal. On our end , we were awestruck by the realization that had we stumbled into my distant relatives' Pascha or had they rung our doorbell we would have immediately felt a sense of kinship and comfort....This after 125 years of separation by immigration, two world wars, seventy years of communism and religious turmoil within the community on both sides of the Atlantic. At the risk of being presumptuous, I think that is what Michal means and feels.
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« Reply #187 on: May 08, 2013, 07:50:27 PM »

Pascha brought home something of note. I would identify myself as being American by nationality, American culturally and Carpatho-Rusyn ethnically - I think....

What was brought home to us was the endurance of ethnic heritage within the confines of vastly differing cultures. A Facebook friend I do not personally know was visiting the common ancestral villages she shares with me and my wife  from the Slovak region of Saris, near the Polish border. She posted a series of pictures of her visit from preparing the Paschal foods, to Church services to the family meal. On our end , we were awestruck by the realization that had we stumbled into my distant relatives' Pascha or had they rung our doorbell we would have immediately felt a sense of kinship and comfort....This after 125 years of separation by immigration, two world wars, seventy years of communism and religious turmoil within the community on both sides of the Atlantic. At the risk of being presumptuous, I think that is what Michal means and feels.
yes, an ethnicity can be retained but it cannot be imposed.
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« Reply #188 on: May 08, 2013, 10:04:43 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?
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« Reply #189 on: May 08, 2013, 10:24:53 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 10:26:23 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #190 on: May 08, 2013, 11:22:47 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.
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« Reply #191 on: May 09, 2013, 02:41:12 AM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

You misunderstood me. I meant that in the Austro-Hungarian Empire "Austrian" was every citizen of the Austrian part of the Empire, both ethnic Germans and other ethnicities such as Czech, Poles, Ruthenes (Ukrainians)...

Most of those who were left in residual Austria after the end of the WWI were ethnic Germans, since many territories had been lost to Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania and Yugoslavia.

An Austrian identity distinct from German developped after WWII. But still today, one would speak in Austria of an ethnic German majority and ethnic minorities such as Croatians and Slovenes.
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« Reply #192 on: May 09, 2013, 08:00:03 AM »

it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.

All identity is. Americans should know this. We can forgive the rest of the world for their own naivete about identity, but we have no excuse.
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« Reply #193 on: May 09, 2013, 09:09:58 AM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.

Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.

As to us mere Europeans being naive, sorry but I found Orthonorm's comment wide of the mark. Naive indeed...
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« Reply #194 on: May 09, 2013, 11:14:08 AM »


Genetics isn't dispositive for ethnicity. If it were, Indians and Slavs would be the same.

For some ethnicities (e.g. Iranian, Turks, etc), genetics do not play a role at all.

I don't know much about science, but I don't think you can look at just one haplogroup and declare two separate groups the same. The similarity here is most likely due to both areas being invaded by the Mongols and their descendants (the surname Khan is quite prevalent in India for the same reason).
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« Reply #195 on: May 09, 2013, 01:17:38 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.

Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.

As to us mere Europeans being naive, sorry but I found Orthonorm's comment wide of the mark. Naive indeed...

If this goes to politics, I'll disabuse you of your European high browed myopia.
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« Reply #196 on: May 09, 2013, 03:25:17 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

No thanks, I'll pass...

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.

Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.

As to us mere Europeans being naive, sorry but I found Orthonorm's comment wide of the mark. Naive indeed...

If this goes to politics, I'll disabuse you of your European high browed myopia.

No thanks, I'll pass. Actually I'm long sighted Wink
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« Reply #197 on: May 26, 2013, 10:48:31 PM »

I am a Jewish Orthodox Christian and I am not offended by anything in the Liturgy.  I stand transfixed by the glorious and beautiful poetry and imagery of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  I couldn't image changing anything.  It is surely God's magnificent gift to us.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother and all the early Apostles were Jewish.
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« Reply #198 on: May 27, 2013, 10:15:26 PM »

Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.

Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.
Well, if ethnicity is not a shaky concept, how do you define Macedonians? Are they Greek, Serbian, Albanian, Bulgarian or Macedonian? If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #199 on: May 28, 2013, 03:47:26 AM »

If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

Because they were founded by Communists. Because they persecute the Church.

And yes, I acknowledge the right of Macedonian to self-identity (maybe not under that LARP-ing name).
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« Reply #200 on: May 28, 2013, 03:51:42 AM »

And yes, I acknowledge the right of Macedonian to self-identity (maybe not under that LARP-ing name).

But didn't you know Alexander the Great was a Slav who spoke a Bulgarian dialect?
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« Reply #201 on: May 28, 2013, 05:25:23 AM »

If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

Because they were founded by Communists.
I didn't know  that the Communists had anything to do with the founding of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in the year 999. Fifty five years before the schism,  the Macedonian Orthodox Church  was formed with the blessing of Pope Sylvester II in the year 999.  Pope Sylvester II was not a member of the Communist Party.
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« Reply #202 on: May 28, 2013, 05:28:46 AM »

If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

Because they were founded by Communists.
I didn't know  that the Communists had anything to do with the founding of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in the year 999. Fifty five years before the schism,  the Macedonian Orthodox Church  was formed with the blessing of Pope Sylvester II in the year 999.  Pope Sylvester II was not a member of the Communist Party.

Macedonian Orthodox Church was founded in 1967 by Tito.
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« Reply #203 on: May 28, 2013, 07:47:54 AM »

If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

Because they were founded by Communists.
I didn't know  that the Communists had anything to do with the founding of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in the year 999. Fifty five years before the schism,  the Macedonian Orthodox Church  was formed with the blessing of Pope Sylvester II in the year 999.  Pope Sylvester II was not a member of the Communist Party.

Macedonian Orthodox Church was founded in 1967 by Tito.

Reminds me of another founder, Uncle 'Joe' Stalin, that loveable founder of today's Moscow Patriarchate.

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« Reply #204 on: May 28, 2013, 06:07:44 PM »

If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

Because they were founded by Communists.
I didn't know  that the Communists had anything to do with the founding of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in the year 999. Fifty five years before the schism,  the Macedonian Orthodox Church  was formed with the blessing of Pope Sylvester II in the year 999.  Pope Sylvester II was not a member of the Communist Party.

Macedonian Orthodox Church was founded in 1967 by Tito.
The autocephalous Macedonian Orthodox Church has existed, first at Prespa and then in Ohrid, since the time of Tsar Samuil in the mid tenth century. Until the time of Samuil, the church in Macedonia had been under the jurisdiction of the Bulgarian Patriarchate founded by Tsar Symeon. According to  Lidija Slaveska : ---The independent Macedonian Orthodox Church in Samuil's Macedonian state had the final say in the whole of spiritual and educational life, it regulated legal and family relations and united the people under the symbol of its name, in the spirit of the widely-accepted medieval principle of unity between church and state, in accordance with the apostolic theory that there is no power other than that of God---  The Church was given legal support by Basil II in 1018.
Please see:
Etnogenezata na makedonskiot narod: Kontinuitet i tradicija : nekoi aspekti ,  Lidija Slaveska
and
Makedonski Icelenuchki Almanac
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« Reply #205 on: May 28, 2013, 07:53:04 PM »

If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

Because they were founded by Communists.
I didn't know  that the Communists had anything to do with the founding of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in the year 999. Fifty five years before the schism,  the Macedonian Orthodox Church  was formed with the blessing of Pope Sylvester II in the year 999.  Pope Sylvester II was not a member of the Communist Party.

Macedonian Orthodox Church was founded in 1967 by Tito.

Reminds me of another founder, Uncle 'Joe' Stalin, that loveable founder of today's Moscow Patriarchate.



You must not be of the ROCA with Moscow then.
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Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 986



« Reply #206 on: May 29, 2013, 04:01:58 AM »

If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?

Because they were founded by Communists.
I didn't know  that the Communists had anything to do with the founding of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in the year 999. Fifty five years before the schism,  the Macedonian Orthodox Church  was formed with the blessing of Pope Sylvester II in the year 999.  Pope Sylvester II was not a member of the Communist Party.

Macedonian Orthodox Church was founded in 1967 by Tito.

Reminds me of another founder, Uncle 'Joe' Stalin, that loveable founder of today's Moscow Patriarchate.



You must not be of the ROCA with Moscow then.

No, I like others could not go along with the betrayal of what ROCOR had stood for and which it now is bearing the sad fruits of. Non-Russian clergy being told they must change their mentality, join in ecumenical prayer and prayer with those of other faiths. All entirely in keeping with the Canons of the Church, not. All more in keeping with the long standing organ grinder's, OGPU/KGB/FSB, instructions.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 04:19:18 AM by Santagranddad » Logged
Tags: Political Correctness historical revisionism New Israel The Rudder Canons Israel Zionism 
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