Author Topic: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?  (Read 4232 times)

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Offline Gordon Ramsay

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Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« on: April 23, 2016, 06:13:53 PM »
People say that it is not in Holy Week or Lent, but wanted to check.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2016, 06:28:53 PM »
I believe Holy Week begins after Christ's entry in to Jerusalem...which is tomorrow

So today, Lazarus Saturday, is not yet Holy Week.

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Offline Gordon Ramsay

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2016, 06:31:38 PM »
I believe Holy Week begins after Christ's entry in to Jerusalem...which is tomorrow

So today, Lazarus Saturday, is not yet Holy Week.



That's what I thought, and wouldn't take make it more than a week then if Lazarus Saturday counted?

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2016, 06:53:39 PM »
Its still Great Lent.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2016, 07:01:18 PM »
Its still Great Lent.
No. Yesterday, Friday, was the fortieth day. From the Doxasticon for Lazarus Saturday: "Having completed the forty days that bring profit to our soul...." The fasting continues until Pascha, but it's not Holy Week either. Something of a festal interlude, since it's hard to separate Lazarus Saturday from Palm Sunday.

Offline Gordon Ramsay

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2016, 07:07:59 PM »
Its still Great Lent.
No. Yesterday, Friday, was the fortieth day. From the Doxasticon for Lazarus Saturday: "Having completed the forty days that bring profit to our soul...." The fasting continues until Pascha, but it's not Holy Week either. Something of a festal interlude, since it's hard to separate Lazarus Saturday from Palm Sunday.

I have fasted from meat for Lent and on Holy Week I start my more intensive fasting, but wanted to check. It's gonna be difficult trying to stick to veggies and fruit for a week. Can I have pita bread?

So it's not Holy Week yet? :D
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 07:08:44 PM by Gordon Ramsay »

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2016, 07:50:20 PM »
No. It's not yet Holy Week.

Yes, you can have pita bread.

Tomorrow, Palm Sunday...you can even have fish.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline biro

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2016, 08:06:17 PM »
No. It's not yet Holy Week.

Yes, you can have pita bread.

Tomorrow, Palm Sunday...you can even have fish.

Yay! Is salmon allowed?  :D
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Offline Bob2

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2016, 08:07:59 PM »
and caviar today

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2016, 09:19:17 PM »
No. It's not yet Holy Week.

Yes, you can have pita bread.

Tomorrow, Palm Sunday...you can even have fish.

Yay! Is salmon allowed?  :D

You bet it is.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline biro

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2016, 10:10:32 PM »
No. It's not yet Holy Week.

Yes, you can have pita bread.

Tomorrow, Palm Sunday...you can even have fish.

Yay! Is salmon allowed?  :D

You bet it is.

Huzzah! Thank you. :)
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Offline Luke

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2016, 10:46:23 PM »
In conversation with the Mrs., I call this weekend, "Transition weekend."

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2016, 08:10:19 AM »
Its still Great Lent.
No.

You are awesome.

You must have pretty low standards for awesomeness, then again that is hardly surprising.

Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.
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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2016, 08:59:47 AM »
Its still Great Lent.
No.

You are awesome.

You must have pretty low standards for awesomeness, then again that is hardly surprising.

Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.

I agree that Great Lent ends on Palm Friday (the day before Lazarus Saturday); however, I'm not sure if in this case Vespers anticipate the next day. We know that during the Holy Week Vespers are not anticipation, and I'm not sure about Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday, because:
1. During Vespers sticheras on Palm Friday it's said
Having completed the Forty Day Fast that is pleasing to our soul, let us cry out: Rejoice, O City of Bethany, the home of Lazarus, rejoice Martha and Mary, his sisters. For tomorrow Christ will come, by His word to give life to your dead brother.
2. In Slavonic books it's always highlited that Vespers are of the next day, that with this service the feast starts, it's written "on the day x, on Vespers"; however, as for evening of the Lazarus Saturday, it's written only "in the evening of the Palm Saturday" and "On Palm Sunday" is written in the beginning of Matins.
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Offline Bob2

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2016, 09:00:01 AM »
Its still Great Lent.
No.

You are awesome.

You must have pretty low standards for awesomeness, then again that is hardly surprising.

Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.

Pull out a calendar and count 40 days starting at clean Monday

Offline Indocern

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2016, 09:26:39 AM »
Its still Great Lent.
No.

You are awesome.

You must have pretty low standards for awesomeness, then again that is hardly surprising.

Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.

I agree that Great Lent ends on Palm Friday (the day before Lazarus Saturday); however, I'm not sure if in this case Vespers anticipate the next day. We know that during the Holy Week Vespers are not anticipation, and I'm not sure about Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday, because:
1. During Vespers sticheras on Palm Friday it's said
Having completed the Forty Day Fast that is pleasing to our soul, let us cry out: Rejoice, O City of Bethany, the home of Lazarus, rejoice Martha and Mary, his sisters. For tomorrow Christ will come, by His word to give life to your dead brother.
2. In Slavonic books it's always highlited that Vespers are of the next day, that with this service the feast starts, it's written "on the day x, on Vespers"; however, as for evening of the Lazarus Saturday, it's written only "in the evening of the Palm Saturday" and "On Palm Sunday" is written in the beginning of Matins.

In our church it is not end of the great lent, the end of the great lent is after the next week and the next week is the passion week.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:29:12 AM by Indocern »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2016, 11:04:26 AM »
Its still Great Lent.
No.

You are awesome.

You must have pretty low standards for awesomeness, then again that is hardly surprising.

Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.
Actually, the Presanctified Liturgy finishes the Lenten day, which is why the Hymn of Kassiani, a hymn sung during the Matins/Vigil of Holy Wednesday, is included in the Presanctified Liturgy for Wednesday evening, NOT the Presanctified Liturgy for Tuesday evening.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 11:09:42 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Gordon Ramsay

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2016, 11:52:20 AM »
Is all oil restricted? Like vegetable oil for frying?

Sorry, trying to see what can be eaten.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2016, 08:30:59 PM »
Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.

Vespers concludes the liturgical day during Lenten weekdays.  The transition to the next liturgical day doesn't really occur until after "Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this evening without sin". 

"Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung" before "Gladsome Light", it is for Friday in the Week of Palms, not Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended on the Friday before Lazarus Saturday. 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2016, 09:49:25 PM »
Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.

Vespers concludes the liturgical day during Lenten weekdays.  The transition to the next liturgical day doesn't really occur until after "Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this evening without sin". 

"Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung" before "Gladsome Light", it is for Friday in the Week of Palms, not Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended on the Friday before Lazarus Saturday.

I have never heard this before.  Vespers only anticipates the day only after Vouchsafe, O Lord?  Then how do you account for the Menaion hymns at Great Vespers sung BEFORE the Doxasticon for the saint of the NEXT day?   I'm sure you've got some fancy answer due to your days at St. Vlad's which may account for this but I don't see how Vespers only anticipates the following day only at the prayer of Vouchsafe, O Lord.
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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2016, 10:12:01 PM »
Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.

Vespers concludes the liturgical day during Lenten weekdays.  The transition to the next liturgical day doesn't really occur until after "Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this evening without sin". 

"Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung" before "Gladsome Light", it is for Friday in the Week of Palms, not Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended on the Friday before Lazarus Saturday.

I have never heard this before.  Vespers only anticipates the day only after Vouchsafe, O Lord?  Then how do you account for the Menaion hymns at Great Vespers sung BEFORE the Doxasticon for the saint of the NEXT day?   I'm sure you've got some fancy answer due to your days at St. Vlad's which may account for this but I don't see how Vespers only anticipates the following day only at the prayer of Vouchsafe, O Lord.
You're missing one key qualifier in Mor's post: he's talking about Lenten Vespers, and specifically Lenten Daily Vespers. Even without the Presanctified Liturgy this service is a very different animal. The only stichera from the Menaion are sung during "Lord I Call", and we don't sing any of the Troparia from the Menaion.

BTW, I notice your subtle dig at Mor's seminary education, as if it's nothing more than an ivory tower academic experience that doesn't qualify him to speak as an authority on liturgical matters. The liturgics he studied and the liturgics you studied are the same liturgics--there's no difference between the two. I don't have a seminary degree, I am not ordained, nor am I even a tonsured reader, yet even I have studied our liturgics enough to know how confused you are on this matter.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 02:42:50 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2016, 10:23:51 PM »
Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.

Vespers concludes the liturgical day during Lenten weekdays.  The transition to the next liturgical day doesn't really occur until after "Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this evening without sin". 

"Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung" before "Gladsome Light", it is for Friday in the Week of Palms, not Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended on the Friday before Lazarus Saturday.

I have never heard this before.  Vespers only anticipates the day only after Vouchsafe, O Lord?  Then how do you account for the Menaion hymns at Great Vespers sung BEFORE the Doxasticon for the saint of the NEXT day?   I'm sure you've got some fancy answer due to your days at St. Vlad's which may account for this but I don't see how Vespers only anticipates the following day only at the prayer of Vouchsafe, O Lord.
You're missing one key qualifier in Mor's post: he's talking about Lenten Vespers, and specifically Lenten daily Vespers. Even without the Presanctified Liturgy this is a very different animal. The only stichera from the Menaion are sung during "Lord I Call", and we don't sing any of the Troparia from the Menaion.

But those stichera still anticipate the NEXT day.  Mor's point was that the Doxasticon occurs before "vouchsafe, O Lord" which when Vespers (even a Lenten vespers) anticipate the next day and thus is confined to Friday. However, that does not really hold if the stichera for the Saint(s) of the Day  are chanted even before the Doxasticon of Psalm 140.
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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2016, 10:29:31 PM »
Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.

Vespers concludes the liturgical day during Lenten weekdays.  The transition to the next liturgical day doesn't really occur until after "Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this evening without sin". 

"Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung" before "Gladsome Light", it is for Friday in the Week of Palms, not Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended on the Friday before Lazarus Saturday.

I have never heard this before.  Vespers only anticipates the day only after Vouchsafe, O Lord?  Then how do you account for the Menaion hymns at Great Vespers sung BEFORE the Doxasticon for the saint of the NEXT day?   I'm sure you've got some fancy answer due to your days at St. Vlad's which may account for this but I don't see how Vespers only anticipates the following day only at the prayer of Vouchsafe, O Lord.
You're missing one key qualifier in Mor's post: he's talking about Lenten Vespers, and specifically Lenten daily Vespers. Even without the Presanctified Liturgy this is a very different animal. The only stichera from the Menaion are sung during "Lord I Call", and we don't sing any of the Troparia from the Menaion.

But those stichera still anticipate the NEXT day.  Mor's point was that the Doxasticon occurs before "vouchsafe, O Lord" which when Vespers (even a Lenten vespers) anticipate the next day and thus is confined to Friday. However, that does not really hold if the stichera for the Saint(s) of the Day  are chanted even before the Doxasticon of Psalm 140.
But that doesn't support your initial assertion that Lent ends with Lazarus Saturday because Vespers "always anticipates the next liturgical day." You're now shifting your focus onto the Menaion when Lenten Vespers is governed by the Triodion. The hymns of the Triodion for Daily Vespers (to include the Presanctified Liturgy) finish the day. They don't anticipate the next day.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 11:00:29 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is Saturday of Lazarus Holy Week?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2016, 12:23:37 AM »
Vespers looks forward to the next liturgical day.  Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung on Friday it anticipates Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended yesterday.

Vespers concludes the liturgical day during Lenten weekdays.  The transition to the next liturgical day doesn't really occur until after "Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this evening without sin". 

"Since the Doxastikon, quoted above, for Vespers is sung" before "Gladsome Light", it is for Friday in the Week of Palms, not Lazarus Saturday.  Thus, Great Lent ended on the Friday before Lazarus Saturday.

I have never heard this before.  Vespers only anticipates the day only after Vouchsafe, O Lord?  Then how do you account for the Menaion hymns at Great Vespers sung BEFORE the Doxasticon for the saint of the NEXT day?   I'm sure you've got some fancy answer due to your days at St. Vlad's which may account for this but I don't see how Vespers only anticipates the following day only at the prayer of Vouchsafe, O Lord.

See the rubrics for the Wednesday and Friday of Cheesefare Week for an illustration of this.
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