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Author Topic: Mary, Daughter of the Father?  (Read 2139 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: January 22, 2009, 10:38:14 AM »

Sometimes, especially when something here necessitates it, I go back to another forum  police Roll Eyes police, where I saw a string of the coredemptrix hysteria, otherwise known as Vox Populi.  In their petition, they (or rather Dr. Mark Miravalle, professor of Mariology, or I would say Mariolatry,  at Steubenville) call the Theotokos:

Quote
Mary, Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, Spouse of the Spirit and Mother of the Church

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/MEDIATRI.HTM

Any thoughts on the boldface?

Btw, I think all the protestations that this is the "last" Marian dogma are smoke screen: I think it's last like the "last" tour of a rock band.  The Mariolatrists aren't going to break up afterward.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 10:39:26 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 10:41:39 AM »

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Mary, Daughter of the Father,


Ewwww.  Tongue Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 11:34:47 AM »

Sometimes, especially when something here necessitates it, I go back to another forum  police Roll Eyes police, where I saw a string of the coredemptrix hysteria, otherwise known as Vox Populi.  In their petition, they (or rather Dr. Mark Miravalle, professor of Mariology, or I would say Mariolatry,  at Steubenville) call the Theotokos:

Quote
Mary, Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, Spouse of the Spirit and Mother of the Church

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/MEDIATRI.HTM

Any thoughts on the boldface?

Btw, I think all the protestations that this is the "last" Marian dogma are smoke screen: I think it's last like the "last" tour of a rock band.  The Mariolatrists aren't going to break up afterward.

Aren't we all "sons" and "daughters" of the Father?
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 12:00:58 PM »

Sometimes, especially when something here necessitates it, I go back to another forum  police Roll Eyes police, where I saw a string of the coredemptrix hysteria, otherwise known as Vox Populi.  In their petition, they (or rather Dr. Mark Miravalle, professor of Mariology, or I would say Mariolatry,  at Steubenville) call the Theotokos:

Quote
Mary, Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, Spouse of the Spirit and Mother of the Church

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/MEDIATRI.HTM

Any thoughts on the boldface?

Btw, I think all the protestations that this is the "last" Marian dogma are smoke screen: I think it's last like the "last" tour of a rock band.  The Mariolatrists aren't going to break up afterward.

Aren't we all "sons" and "daughters" of the Father?

Unless you are baptized, no.

And if you are baptized, you are adopted, not begotten.

And any theology that thinks she is the Daughter of the Father at the same level she is the Mother of the Son, Spouse of the Spirit and Mother of the Church, has DEEP problems.
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 12:02:56 PM »

It does look strange to me. Indeed, we all are sons and daughters of God, but not by nature - only Christ as God the Son is the Son of the Father by nature. To call the Most Holy Theotokos Daughter of the Father in the same sense as to call Christ the Son of the Father, or herself as Mother of God (again, by nature) - is wrong, because it makes Her divine, having the Divine Nature (which of course She does not have).
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 12:13:04 PM »

It does look strange to me. Indeed, we all are sons and daughters of God, but not by nature - only Christ as God the Son is the Son of the Father by nature. To call the Most Holy Theotokos Daughter of the Father in the same sense as to call Christ the Son of the Father, or herself as Mother of God (again, by nature) - is wrong, because it makes Her divine, having the Divine Nature (which of course She does not have).

Btw, I was just reminded of a thread that was posted on that other forum  police Roll Eyes police from some Ukrainian Vatican  site (complete with open heart surgery pictures of the  Immaculate Heart and Sacred Heart in the letter head) that all but claimed she was a person of the Trinity.  The thread was pulled, so I don't have the link.  Does anyone know what site I am talking about? (btw, the site was in English).
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 12:23:32 PM »

It does look strange to me. Indeed, we all are sons and daughters of God, but not by nature - only Christ as God the Son is the Son of the Father by nature. To call the Most Holy Theotokos Daughter of the Father in the same sense as to call Christ the Son of the Father, or herself as Mother of God (again, by nature) - is wrong, because it makes Her divine, having the Divine Nature (which of course She does not have).

Btw, I was just reminded of a thread that was posted on that other forum  police Roll Eyes police from some Ukrainian Vatican  site (complete with open heart surgery pictures of the  Immaculate Heart and Sacred Heart in the letter head) that all but claimed she was a person of the Trinity.  The thread was pulled, so I don't have the link.  Does anyone know what site I am talking about? (btw, the site was in English).

There was a maryisgod.org site (from the Philippines, I believe), but that's been down for some time now. But, there's still this and also this.
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 12:51:10 PM »

 LG 53. See also LG 56, 59,

This most Holy Synod … exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues. LG 67

It looks to me like the Catholic Church has attempted to quell this 'uprising'.   Embarrassed
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 12:58:23 PM »

I came across a number of sites on this "Daughter of the Father":

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/documents/docs1-1.html
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/mangan_assumption_aug07.asp
http://www.piercedhearts.org/jpii/jpii_blessed_mother/mary_trinity.htm
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 01:03:16 PM »

LG 53. See also LG 56, 59,

This most Holy Synod … exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues. LG 67

It looks to me like the Catholic Church has attempted to quell this 'uprising'.   Embarrassed

Many tried to quell the IC when it reared its head.  Didn't work.
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 01:14:31 PM »

I came across a number of sites on this "Daughter of the Father":

http://www.piercedhearts.org/jpii/jpii_blessed_mother/mary_trinity.htm

JPII said:

Quote
Mother of the Son, Mary is the "beloved daughter of the Father" in a unique way. She has been granted an utterly special likeness between her motherhood and the divine fatherhood.

Is this really problematic?
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 01:52:41 PM »

I came across a number of sites on this "Daughter of the Father":

http://www.piercedhearts.org/jpii/jpii_blessed_mother/mary_trinity.htm

JPII said:

Quote
Mother of the Son, Mary is the "beloved daughter of the Father" in a unique way. She has been granted an utterly special likeness between her motherhood and the divine fatherhood.

Is this really problematic?

Yes.  Her motherhood has nothing to do with any "daughterhood."

There is a reason why we say Son of God and Son of Man.  The two meet only in Christ.
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 02:03:19 PM »



This painting really creeps me out.  I think that it was things like this that always kept me from reentering into communion with the See of Rome.  There's just a different feeling that I get from the veneration of the Most Holy Virgin in the western church.  Whenever I encountered it in Orthodoxy, it seemed so much more subdued and appropriate.  But I realize this is simply my personal impression, and I do not wish to offend any Roman Catholics on the board.  The artwork of the Theotokos in the West is often beautiful, but certain pieces such as this just seem wrong in so many ways.  Is this just the Protestant in me, or are there many things very inappropriate with this depiction?  Does not the Theotokos also receive the title "Queen of Heaven" within Orthodoxy?

Are there any icons depicting something similar to the "Coronation of the Theotokos" in the Orthodox Church?  I haven't encountered anything yet.
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 02:27:09 PM »



Crown on head, World in hand and scepter...
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 02:27:50 PM »

Does not the Theotokos also receive the title "Queen of Heaven" within Orthodoxy?

Are there any icons depicting something similar to the "Coronation of the Theotokos" in the Orthodox Church?  I haven't encountered anything yet.

I can't recall specific phrases of "queen of heaven" but they do seem to be implicit in  a great deal of Orthodox hymnography.  For instance, look at St. Nektarios' hymn "Agni Parthene".  

I've not encountered an icon of the "coronation of the Theotokos."  I'm pretty sure that is a distinctly Western (i.e. Catholic) fesitival that developed on their own.  
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 02:30:44 PM »



Here is an old Russian Icon.
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 02:35:12 PM »

Both of those icons would be improper as they depict God the Father, or Christ as the Ancient of Days, correct?  So they exist, but they are not proper icons?

As far as the "Queen of Heaven" title, I am interested to know if it is ever specifically used in the Orthodox services.
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2009, 02:43:25 PM »

Both of those icons would be improper as they depict God the Father, or Christ as the Ancient of Days, correct?  So they exist, but they are not proper icons?



The Theotokos of Vladimir not an Orthodox Icon... don't tell the Russian that.
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 02:53:57 PM »

Both of those icons would be improper as they depict God the Father, or Christ as the Ancient of Days, correct?  So they exist, but they are not proper icons?



From Christ the Saviour Cathedral in Moscow...
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2009, 02:55:22 PM »



The Kursk Root Icon depicts the Ancient of Days above the head of the Theotokos with a Dove Proceeding from Him.
This Icon dates to the 13th century.
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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2009, 03:04:49 PM »



Crown on head, World in hand and scepter...

"God the Father" in heaven, strange halo on head.
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2009, 03:07:49 PM »

Both of those icons would be improper as they depict God the Father, or Christ as the Ancient of Days, correct?  So they exist, but they are not proper icons?



From Christ the Saviour Cathedral in Moscow...

Good Lord! Did they have to restore that?

And they said Napoleon lost.
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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2009, 03:08:12 PM »

"God the Father" in heaven, strange halo on head.

BTW, what does the Crown, World and Scepter symbolize in Iconography?  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2009, 03:11:49 PM »

BTW, what does the Crown, World and Scepter symbolize in Iconography?  Grin

It symbolizes Roman schismatic heresy!  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2009, 03:20:13 PM »

BTW, what does the Crown, World and Scepter symbolize in Iconography?  Grin

It symbolizes Roman schismatic heresy!  Grin

Revisionist...  Grin
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2009, 03:24:43 PM »

"God the Father" in heaven, strange halo on head.

BTW, what does the Crown, World and Scepter symbolize in Iconography?  Grin

Sovereignty, which is why she shouldn't have them.
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2009, 03:34:16 PM »

BTW, what does the Crown, World and Scepter symbolize in Iconography?  Grin

Sovereignty, which is why she shouldn't have them.

What do the Crowns as our heavenly reward symbolize?
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2009, 03:42:50 PM »

BTW, what does the Crown, World and Scepter symbolize in Iconography?  Grin

Sovereignty, which is why she shouldn't have them.

What do the Crowns as our heavenly reward symbolize?

Victory, but you will notice in your example that while she wears a crown, Christ does not. Shocked
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2009, 03:54:03 PM »

What do the Crowns as our heavenly reward symbolize?

Victory, but you will notice in your example that while she wears a crown, Christ does not. Shocked

True but we know also that our Saviour doesn't wear such an adornment in every icon either. I'm not sure it's absence should suggest a lack of recognition of such facts but perhaps the depiction of another emphasis. For example:



Note that in this western depiction the Crown, Scepter and World are shared possessions between the Father and the Son. The Crown is by extension being offered to the Mother. I see this as recognition of her victory as the second of the dead and an extending of the Divine Nature in her Sanctification as Queen Mother. I'll leave any further speculation to others but unlike the Orthodox samples the Queen Mother is not given as her possession, apart from the Father and Son, the Crown, Scepter and World.

BTW, would say that this crown which the BVM is being adorned with is that of a Sovereign? It appears far too modest to suggest such a thing. Would you agree?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 04:23:43 PM by ignatius » Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
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