OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 11:53:51 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Vatican secret confession tribunal opens up  (Read 2338 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« on: January 15, 2009, 05:50:49 AM »


Curious...In Orthodoxy can a orthodox priest forgive the most serious sins..or does one have to confess to a bishop or a patriarch.....


--------------------------------------------------------------
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_confession_crisis;_ylt=Ascwd06Lnd7m4ffmbIryf4pvaA8F







ROME – One of the Vatican's most secrecy shrouded tribunals, which handles confessions of sins so grave only the pope can grant absolution, is giving the faithful a peek into its workings for the first time in its 830-year history.

The Vatican has long lamented that fewer and fewer Catholics are going to confession, the sacrament in which the faithful can receive forgiveness if they sincerely confess their sins to a priest.

To combat the decline, the so-called "tribunal of conscience" invited the public into the frescoed halls of its imposing 16th-century palazzo for a two-day conference that ended Wednesday.

The aim was to explain what the Apostolic Penitentiary actually does, and thereby encourage more of the faithful to go to confession, said Monsignor Gianfranco Girotti, the tribunal's No. 2 official.

"Even though it's the oldest department of the Holy See, it's very little known — specifically because by its nature it deals with secret things," he said. "We want to relaunch the sacrament of penance."

By lifting the veil of secrecy surrounding the tribunal's work, the Vatican hopes to emphasize the fundamental role the sacrament plays in saving souls, the Vatican's No. 2, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said in a paper delivered at the conference.

"Today it seems as though the sense of sin has been forgotten," he said.

Confessions of even the most heinous of crimes and sins — such as genocide or mass murder — are handled at the local level by priests and their bishops and are not heard by the tribunal.

Its work involves those sins that are reserved for the pope — considered so serious that a local priest or bishop is not qualified to grant absolution, said Cardinal James Francis Stafford, an American who heads the Apostolic Penitentiary.

These include defiling the Eucharist, which Catholics believe is the body and blood of Christ. Stafford said this offense is occurring with more and more frequency, not just in satanic rites but by ordinary faithful who receive Communion and then remove the host from their mouths and spit it out or otherwise desecrate it.

Others include a priest breaking the seal of the confessional by revealing the nature of the sin and the person who sought penance, or a priest who has sex with someone and then offered forgiveness for the act.

These sins bring automatic excommunication from the church. Once absolution is granted, the excommunication is lifted, Stafford said.

A fourth type of case that comes to the tribunal involves a man who directly caused an abortion — such as by paying for it — who then seeks to become a priest or deacon, Stafford said.

"That is an irregularity and it means he should not receive the ordination without a dispensation from the pope," he said.

Vatican officials frequently point to a study carried out by Italy's Sacred Heart University that found that 47 percent of people in Italy — a majority Roman Catholic country — never went to confession or did so a long time ago.

"We cannot hide that the sacrament of penance is threatened in this time of secularization," Girotti said. But he stressed that it remained "fundamental for salvation and the sanctification of souls."

For the most part, clerical sex abuse cases are handled by another Vatican office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which deals with more public issues of discipline and orthodoxy.

What makes the Apostolic Penitentiary unusual by Vatican standards is the speed with which it dispenses decisions, Girotti said — very often within 24 hours, or two to three days maximum.

The palazzo where it operates, in the heart of Rome's historic center, also houses two of the Vatican's other main tribunals, the Roman Rota, which decides marriage annulments, and the Apostolic Segnatura, the Holy See's highest court.

Taking up nearly an entire city block, it is just steps away from one of Rome's most profane piazzas — Campo dei Fiori, filled with bars catering to tourists and college-age Americans studying abroad.
 









« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 05:53:31 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2009, 12:05:29 PM »

Curious...In Orthodoxy can a orthodox priest forgive the most serious sins..or does one have to confess to a bishop or a patriarch.....

The priest does not forgive sins, only God does. The priest hears the confession and then says a prayer of absolution over the penitent, but forgiveness comes from God alone.

If it was a sin constituting a canonical impediment to the priesthood, such as those mentioned below (clergy committing sexual immoral acts, the ordination of a person guilty of aborting a child, etc.) these would obviously be matters for a bishop to decide.

Other than that, I don't believe there are sins too grievous to be confessed to a priest, although the priest may wish to consult his bishop on particularly serious matters (not revealing the identity of the penitent).
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2009, 01:34:08 PM »

Curious...In Orthodoxy can a orthodox priest forgive the most serious sins..or does one have to confess to a bishop or a patriarch.....

The priest does not forgive sins, only God does. The priest hears the confession and then says a prayer of absolution over the penitent, but forgiveness comes from God alone.

Well, with that we agree. God only forgives. But, as I'm sure you would agree about Orthodoxy, the Catholic Church has the power of the keys, of binding and loosing, and in the cases mentioned above, the censure of excommunication can only be lifted by the Holy See. For other acts that result in excommunication, the local bishop can lift it.

Here's the absolution formula Latin-rite priests say. I hear this, in English or in Latin, whenever I go to confession:

God, the Father of mercies,
through the death
and the resurrection of his Son
has reconciled the world to himself
and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
through the ministry of the Church
may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins
in the name of the Father, and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit.
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2009, 06:05:56 PM »

Curious...In Orthodoxy can a orthodox priest forgive the most serious sins..or does one have to confess to a bishop or a patriarch.....

The priest does not forgive sins, only God does. The priest hears the confession and then says a prayer of absolution over the penitent, but forgiveness comes from God alone.

Well, with that we agree. God only forgives. But, as I'm sure you would agree about Orthodoxy, the Catholic Church has the power of the keys, of binding and loosing, and in the cases mentioned above, the censure of excommunication can only be lifted by the Holy See. For other acts that result in excommunication, the local bishop can lift it.

Here's the absolution formula Latin-rite priests say. I hear this, in English or in Latin, whenever I go to confession:

God, the Father of mercies,
through the death
and the resurrection of his Son
has reconciled the world to himself
and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
through the ministry of the Church
may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins
in the name of the Father, and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit.


This is remarkably similar in Orthodoxy, with one notable exception. An Orthodox priest says, "May God give you pardon and peace and absolve you from your sins...." Now, I'm not saying that Catholic priests try to absolve sins, but we just go an extra step to ensure that no one thinks so.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2009, 07:34:22 PM »

Here's the absolution formula Latin-rite priests say. I hear this, in English or in Latin, whenever I go to confession:

God, the Father of mercies,
through the death
and the resurrection of his Son
has reconciled the world to himself
and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
through the ministry of the Church
may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins
in the name of the Father, and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit.


Pretty similar to the absolution prayer with which the majority of the Orthodox are familiar.   It begins with what is called a deprecative statement (may God give...)and then moves into a declarative statement (and I absolve...)


The Prayer of Absolution of the Russian/Serbian/Bulgarian/Romanian Churches whose faithful generally need to confess before every Communion starts out with a deprecative formula which is typical of the Orthodox approach to all the Holy Mysteries and then it merges into the indicative formula (typical of modern Roman Catholics but also, let us remember, in fact the formula given by the Lord Himself when He instituted this Holy Mystery.)

"May our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, through His grace and
compassion and love for mankind, forgive thee my child (Name) all thy sins
(so far it is deprecative but now it becomes declarative/indicative) and I an unworthy
priest, through the power given unto me by Him, do forgive and absolve thee
from all thy sins, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit."
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 07:35:29 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2009, 08:44:44 PM »

...and I an unworthy
priest, through the power given unto me by Him, do forgive and absolve thee
from all thy sins, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit.

This seems unorthodox...
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,871


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2009, 11:32:16 PM »

...and I an unworthy
priest, through the power given unto me by Him, do forgive and absolve thee
from all thy sins, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit.

This seems unorthodox...

What makes you say that?  Huh
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2009, 11:33:36 PM »

Because the priest says that he forgives you, not that God forgives you...
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,871


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 12:06:01 AM »

Alveus, read the words of the prayer carefully: and I an unworthy priest, through the power given unto me by Him, do forgive and absolve thee ...

« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 12:06:28 AM by LBK » Logged
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 12:26:24 AM »

Alveus is absolutely right.  This is a Latin innovation brought into the Orthodox Church through the Ukraine by Metropolitan Peter Moghila in the seventeenth century.  (He is venerated as a saint in the Ukraine, Poland and at least parts of Romania, but I am not sure how widespread devotion is to him.)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 12:42:22 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2009, 12:28:51 AM »

The Prayer of Absolution of the Russian/Serbian/Bulgarian/Romanian Churches whose faithful generally need to confess before every Communion starts out with a deprecative formula which is typical of the Orthodox approach to all the Holy Mysteries and then it merges into the indicative formula (typical of modern Roman Catholics but also, let us remember, in fact the formula given by the Lord Himself when He instituted this Holy Mystery.)

Christ did not institute this Mystery during his life on Earth.

But, let us remember the fact that the indicative formula is given by the Lord Himself when He instituted this Holy Mystery.

Respectfully, I'm not sure what to think of this.    One could argue for the use of the indicative form based on Christ's words "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" found in Matthew 16:19 and 18:18. One might say that the origins of the mystery of confession comes from these words of the Lord.  But the fact is that the mystery of confession arrived on the scene much later in the history of the Church than the first century after much spiritual discernment and debate on the issue. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 12:45:20 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2009, 05:01:59 AM »

...and I an unworthy
priest, through the power given unto me by Him, do forgive and absolve thee
from all thy sins, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit.

This seems unorthodox...

It's not though, if only by virtue of the fact that the overwhelming majority of the Orthodox use it.   Smiley

But there are also historical considerations which come into the picture.

We have the pre-schism formula from at least one of the holy Orthodox Patriarchates  -the Orthodox Patriarchate of Rome.  That formula is almost identical to the formula used today by the Russian, Bulgarian and Serbian Churches:

"May the almighty and merciful Lord grant thee pardon, absolution and remission of thy sins. May Our Lord Jesus Christ absolve thee (deprecative up to this point; now it turns to the indicative formula) and I by His authority do absolve thee from thy sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."

Compare this with the Slavonic usage:

"May our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, through His grace and compassion and love for mankind, forgive thee my child (Name) all thy sins (so far it is deprecative but now it becomes indicative) and I an unworthy priest, through the power given unto me by Him, do forgive and absolve thee from all thy sins, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit."

I don't see how we can condemn our present majority usage without also condemning what the Orthodox were doing before the schism?   The Patriarchate of Rome can be documented as using both the deprecative and the indicative formula, either separately or (as given above) in a combined form.

Fr Ambrose

-oOo-
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2009, 05:13:34 AM »

The Prayer of Absolution of the Russian/Serbian/Bulgarian/Romanian Churches whose faithful generally need to confess before every Communion starts out with a deprecative formula which is typical of the Orthodox approach to all the Holy Mysteries and then it merges into the indicative formula (typical of modern Roman Catholics but also, let us remember, in fact the formula given by the Lord Himself when He instituted this Holy Mystery.)

Christ did not institute this Mystery during his life on Earth.

I am unsure what you have in mind?

After His Resurrection the Saviour sent the Apostles out into the world, with the specific authority to forgive sins.


"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

"And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Whosesoever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them
; and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained. "

Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2009, 05:36:05 AM »


Curious...In Orthodoxy can a orthodox priest forgive the most serious sins..or does one have to confess to a bishop or a patriarch.....

The bishop who ordained me, a Serb, reserved to himself the right to hear the Confession and receive back into the Church anybody who had gone into schism or heresy.  This was his perrsonal choice

Apart from that (and it is not a universal law), I don't think there are any sins which a priest may not forgive.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 05:36:37 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2009, 07:35:35 AM »

Orthodox Priests of all the Ancient Patriarchates (Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch & Jerusalem) all specifically say that they have no power to forgive sins on Earth. The Antiochians in the US used the Moghila formula for a while because they were using translations of Slavic Service books, but they are abandoning this practice.

The Rite of Repentance in the Ancient Patriarchates has the Confessor saying to the Penitent:
“My spiritual child, who have make your confession to my humble person: I, a humble
sinner, have no power to forgive sins on earth; only God can do that
; but trusting in the
divinely spoken words that were addressed to the Apostles after the Resurrection of our
Lord Jesus Christ, which said, “If you pronounce unforgiven the sins of any, they remain
unforgiven”, we are bold to say: Whatever you have related to my humble and lowly
person, and whatever you have failed to say either from ignorance or from forgetfulness,
whatever it may be, may God forgive you in this present age and in the age to come.”


This interprets John 20:23 as meaning that a Priest may pronounce sins forgiven by God, but not that he himself forgives sins.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2009, 08:04:30 AM »

"A Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayers" published by Saint Vladimir's Seminary Press (foreword by Fr Alexander Schmemann) contains both the Slavonic and Greek Order of Confession,  I don't have a copy of this.  Can any OCA member check to see if it has both forms of absolution.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Prayer_book
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2009, 08:36:52 AM »

"A Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayers" published by Saint Vladimir's Seminary Press (foreword by Fr Alexander Schmemann) contains both the Slavonic and Greek Order of Confession,  I don't have a copy of this.  Can any OCA member check to see if it has both forms of absolution.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Prayer_book

It shows both, combined.  The "I" is marked with a note that it is not original, and was introduced in the Ukraine in the 17th century under Latin influence (that was, after all, why St. Peter Movila's catechism had to be revised).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2009, 08:53:57 AM »

It shows both, combined.  The "I" is marked with a note that it is not original, and was introduced in the Ukraine in the 17th century under Latin influence (that was, after all, why St. Peter Movila's catechism had to be revised).

Also because of Moghila's language about the Eucharist and transubstantiation (he says it takes place with the Words of Institution), and Purgatory
Logged
Tags: confession 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.085 seconds with 45 queries.