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Author Topic: Koine scholars, help!  (Read 2358 times) Average Rating: 0
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The Caffeinator
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« on: September 22, 2003, 09:06:19 PM »

What is the word used for "Daily" in the Lord's prayer, in the original Greek? I'm comparing it to the Latin in the Nova Vulgata and the Vulgate of Saint Jerome.
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Edwin
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2003, 10:56:32 PM »

The word is "epiousios," and I believe that the Gospels are the first place where the word is used--in other words, it seems to have been a coinage. Certainly scholars are very uncertain as to what it means or even what the etymology is. "Epi" means "upon" but it isn't clear what the second element is. The _Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament_ (Rome: Pontifical Biblical Institute, 1993) gives three different etymologies:

1. From "ep-ienai," which would be translated as "for the coming day."

2. "epi ten ousan" (for the present [day]).

3. "epi + ousia," which would literally translate "upon/above being." The Grammatical Analysis says that this would actually mean "necessary for existence," but "some Fathers" have interpreted it as equivalent to "supernatural."

In Christ,

Edwin

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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2003, 11:27:55 PM »

I'm not a scholar, but I can use an online lexicon...

Edwin is correct that "daily" is one word in the Greek and seems to be a word invented by the evangelists.  The only time the word is used in the NT is for the Lord's prayer.  It is a compound word consisting of "epi" and "ousious"--ousious usually being translated into English by Greeks as "essence", but translated into English by Latins as "substance".  In the creed, "of one essence with the Father (Gk ->Eng)/of one substance with the Father (Lat ->Eng)" is the Greek word homoousious.  From what I understand, Jerome translated "epiousious artos" (artos is "bread") as "panis supersubstantialis" (supersubstantial bread).

If Afanasyiv hadn't run away, maybe he could have explained...
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prodromos
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2003, 06:21:16 AM »

Heartfelt apologies if you do not have Unicode support in your operating system.
The passages below are displayed in Palatino Linotype font. If you don't have it, get it Wink

Matthew 6:11
+ñß++++ ß+ä-ü-ä++++ ß+í++ß+¦++ -äß++++ ß+É-Ç+¦++ß++-â+¦++++ +¦ß++-é ß+í++ß+û++ -âß+¦+++¦-ü+++++ç

Luke 11:3
-äß++++ ß+ä-ü-ä++++ ß+í++ß+¦++ -äß++++ ß+É-Ç+¦++ß++-â+¦++++ +¦ß+++¦++-à  ÃƒÆ’Ÿ+í++ß+û++ -äß++ +¦+¦++’ ß+í++ß+¦-ü+¦++

(click on the verse reference to see the chapter in parallel English and Greek)
I had a brief private discussion of this part of the Lord's prayer with Justinianus as the Latin Vulgate translates epiousion in the Luke passage as cotidianum, while in the Matthew passage it is supersubstantialem which is the most correct translation IMHO.

"epiousion" means "that which is essential to live" and the Darby translation which you see parallel with the Greek in the links above is the only one I know of that comes close with "needed". I believe that this is actually in reference to the "bread of life" the body of our Lord Jesus which we receive in the Divine Liturgy, however translating "epiousion" as "daily" loses that meaning.

For you edification, here it is in Aramaic and an English translation


and again with a slightly different translation here http://wwwstaff.murdoch.edu.au/~t-issa/syr/abon.htm

I'd also like to copy a bit of the following link which explains the terms.
Quote
The Greek word epio+¦sios, which Luther rendered as "t+ñglich" ("daily") and Tyndale in 1525 and the King James Version as "daily," has been the object of lengthy discussion which is not yet finally settled. In my opinion, the decisive fact is that the church father Jerome (ca. A.D. 342-420) tells us that in the lost Aramaic Gospel of the Nazarenes the term mahar appears, meaning "tomorrow,") that here therefore the reference was to bread "for tomorrow. Now it is true that this Gospel of the Nazarenes is not older than our first three gospels; rather it rests on our Gospel of Matthew. Nonetheless the Aramaic wording of the Lord’s Prayer in the Gospel of the Nazarenes ("bread for tomorrow") must be older than the Gospel of the Nazarenes and older even than our gospels. For in first-century Palestine the Lord’s Prayer was prayed in uninterrupted usage in Aramaic, and a person translating the gospel of Matthew into Aramaic naturally did not translate the Lord’s Prayer as he did the rest of the text. Instead, when the translator came to Matthew 6:9-13, he of course stopped translating; he simply wrote down the holy words in the form in which he prayed them day by day. In other words, the Aramaic-speaking Jewish-Christians, among whom the Lord’s Prayer lived on in its original Aramaic wording in unbroken usage since the days of Jesus, prayed, "Our bread for tomorrow give us today."

Jerome tells us even more. He adds a remark telling how the phrase "bread for tomorrow" was understood. He says: "In the so-called Gospel according to the Hebrews20. . . I found mahar, which means ‘for tomorrow,’ so that the sense is, ‘Our bread for tomorrow - that is, our future bread -- give us today.’"21 As a matter of fact, in late Judaism mahar, "tomorrow," mean not only the next day but also the great Tomorrow, the final consummation. Accordingly, Jerome is saying, the "bread for tomorrow" was not meant as earthly bread but as the bread of life. Further, we know from the ancient translations of the Lord’s Prayer, both in the East and in the West, that in the early church this eschatological understanding -- "bread of the age of salvation," "bread of life," "heavenly manna"-- was the familiar, if not the predominant interpretation of the phrase "bread for tomorrow." Since primeval times, the bread of life and the water of life have been symbols of paradise, an epitome of the fullness of all God’s material and spiritual gifts. It is this bread -- symbol, image, and fulfillment of the age of salvation -- to which Jesus is referring when he says that in the consummation he will eat and drink with his disciples (Luke 22:30) and that he will gird himself and serve them at table (Luke 12:37) with the bread which has been broken and the cup which has been blessed (cf. Matt. 26:29). The eschatological thrust of all the other petitions in the Lord’s Prayer speaks for the fact that the petition for bread has an eschatological sense too, i.e., that it entreats God for the bread of life.

THis is probably more than you asked for Grin

unworthy John.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2003, 06:34:59 AM by prodromos » Logged
Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2003, 10:11:36 AM »

There is controversy over which Aramaic Jesus spoke.  Those who speak Eastern Syriac (which is referenced above) claim that it is His language; those who speak Western Syriac claim that that is His language: I've seen both.  Just yesterday I was reading somewhere that East Syriac is a dialect that was centred in Southern Turkey (Nisibis and Edessa), while West Syriac was centred in Antioch and Palestine; this would make the latter the language that Jesus spoke (unless God is a Turk...heaven forbid!).  Anyway, I don't know what to believe, but I think West Syriac sounds better, and it is the language of my Church, so below is a link to the Lord's Prayer in Syriac.  It doesn't give a literal translation, unfortunately, but uses the standard English translation we use in our parishes.  The one difference you will note is "debtors" for "trespasses"; I am personally used to the latter, although we use the former in church, and it is said the former is more accurate.  The wording of that part of the prayer also has a different meaning from what we commonly use in English.  

http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Common/Abundbashmayo.html
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2003, 12:18:16 PM »

Quote
supersubstantialis

This is interesting. I thought this word was a change in the Nova Vulgata. It is not the word that appears in the trad Liturgy.
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prodromos
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2003, 02:36:18 AM »

Quote
supersubstantialis

This is interesting. I thought this word was a change in the Nova Vulgata. It is not the word that appears in the trad Liturgy.

This is what Justinianus told me too. It seems that the Latin liturgical form has become the accepted translation for both Matthew and Luke in the English language. I have to admit that I was really surprised to find the same greek word in identical contexts translated as two different words in the Latin Vulgate. Thats why I went digging for the Aramaic text of the Lord's Prayer, to see how other ancient witnesses translate from the Greek.

unworthy John
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prodromos
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2003, 05:00:09 AM »

I just wanted to add that there is another common word for "daily" in greek which the evangelists could have easily used, "+¦+¦+++++++¦-ü+¦++-î-é" (actually there is another word as well), so if all they wanted to say was "daily", there was no need for a new word to be created as they already had a choice available. It seems to me that they wanted to convey a lot more meaning than simply "food for the day".

unworthy John
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2003, 10:12:44 PM »

Let me reflect back to you what I understand is being said here.  The word "epiousios" is best understood as something like sustenance, or life sustaining.  The “epi” part of the word is interesting.  Is the word along the line of the “bread” sustaining the whole of my being?  Are you saying that the meaning of the line is “give us the bread that will maintain the whole of our being” (physically and spiritually)?
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