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samkim
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« on: January 09, 2009, 10:57:58 PM »

I recently came across some extra money and was looking to buy a horologion. Any suggestions? What are some of the main differences between Russian and Byzantine practice? Would the Antiochian Liturgikon be suitable?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 11:05:13 PM by samkim » Logged

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samkim
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 11:09:20 PM »

(I do not plan on buying the $100+ HTM Great Horologion... if only I had the mula...)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 11:09:39 PM by samkim » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 01:28:05 AM »

I recently came across some extra money and was looking to buy a horologion. Any suggestions? What are some of the main differences between Russian and Byzantine practice? Would the Antiochian Liturgikon be suitable?
I have only used the HTM Horologion so cannot speak to the alternatives.  However, I do want to make sure you know that the Liturgikon does not contain the Horologion, they are two separate (but complementary) service books.  Save more money and buy them both!
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 04:25:39 PM »

I thought the Liturgikon had the ordinaries for the hours?
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 04:56:38 PM »

I thought the Liturgikon had the ordinaries for the hours?
Yes, and the Horologion has the variable hymns and readings for the appointed day.
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 05:38:19 PM »

The Liturgikon is the service book for priests so it only has the set priest parts of the services so and the Horologion has unchanging texts for the services. I would suggest the one that Jordanville prints, it's affordable and it's very nice. I would also suggest the Old Rite Horologion which is the one I use thats printed by Church of the Nativity.

Church of the Nativity Horologion: https://securehost85.hrwebservices.net/~cotn//shopping/product_info.php?products_id=163&osCsid=d9ebb1c1ba7720ed6e30c4f237c9a2b1

Jordanville: http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BK1913

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Yes, and the Horologion has the variable hymns and readings for the appointed day.

The Horologion has all the unchanging texts of the services. For the services for each day, one would need the Menaion which is a wonderful thing to have but it will cost about $1200. The Horologion is the one that has the ordinaries for the services and the Liturgikon has the ordinaries for the priest.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 05:41:49 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 05:50:38 PM »

I bought a book that outlines the Sunday readings for the year to send with my husband on his deployment. My priest said that it was the one book he thought would help him the most to stay in connection with the liturgy of the church while being so far away. It isn't a horologian, but it is really cool. I highy recommend it, especially since it is about $17. It may not have all the text for the services, but it is full of information.

The Year of Grace of the Lord: A Scriptural and Liturgical Commentary on the Calendar of the Orthodox Church
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 05:53:46 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 06:05:20 PM »

For the services for each day, one would need the Menaion which is a wonderful thing to have but it will cost about $1200.

12 volumes of Monthly Menaion $1200? Unbelievably expensive! In Poland one set (however in Church Slavonic) costs about $320. But if it's translated to understandable modern English maybe it's worth the price.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 06:06:31 PM by mike » Logged

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samkim
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 06:15:31 PM »

I think I will buy the Holy Trinity one. Although I'm Antiochian. I will ask again: what is the main difference btwn the Byzantine and Russian practice?
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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 06:16:45 PM »

The Liturgikon is the service book for priests so it only has the set priest parts of the services so and the Horologion has unchanging texts for the services. I would suggest the one that Jordanville prints, it's affordable and it's very nice. I would also suggest the Old Rite Horologion which is the one I use thats printed by Church of the Nativity.

Church of the Nativity Horologion: https://securehost85.hrwebservices.net/~cotn//shopping/product_info.php?products_id=163&osCsid=d9ebb1c1ba7720ed6e30c4f237c9a2b1

Jordanville: http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BK1913

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Yes, and the Horologion has the variable hymns and readings for the appointed day.

The Horologion has all the unchanging texts of the services. For the services for each day, one would need the Menaion which is a wonderful thing to have but it will cost about $1200. The Horologion is the one that has the ordinaries for the services and the Liturgikon has the ordinaries for the priest.
Excuse me, yes, I was thinking of the Menaion!
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2009, 06:33:10 PM »

Horologion is not Typikon or Menaion so calendar diversity won't be a problem. I think that if there were some slightly differences, they wouldn't be important.
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2009, 06:39:50 PM »

For the services for each day, one would need the Menaion which is a wonderful thing to have but it will cost about $1200.

12 volumes of Monthly Menaion $1200? Unbelievably expensive! In Poland one set (however in Church Slavonic) costs about $320. But if it's translated to understandable modern English maybe it's worth the price.

I think my priest has both sets (Slavic and Byz).  He was the ecclesiarch in Seminary and also a music snob (plus composer and arranger), so understandable.
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samkim
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 06:40:25 PM »

As far as the texts for the ordinaries of the services, do they differ between the Byzantine and Russian practices?
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2009, 07:52:13 PM »

Anyone know if any of these books (e.g. Horologion) are available as pdfs online?  Just curious.
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2009, 08:19:37 PM »

I think I will buy the Holy Trinity one. Although I'm Antiochian. I will ask again: what is the main difference btwn the Byzantine and Russian practice?

I'm Antiochian also and I use an Old Rite Horologion so it's no big deal that you use Jordanville's. On differences between Russian and Byzantine practices, you can read this article: http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html. As far as differences in the texts of the services, there really isn't any.

Quote
Anyone know if any of these books (e.g. Horologion) are available as pdfs online?  Just curious

You can find them at this site: http://www.holytrinitymission.org/index.php. They have the Horologion, Oktoichos, Triodion, etc available for download.

Quote
12 volumes of Monthly Menaion $1200? Unbelievably expensive! In Poland one set (however in Church Slavonic) costs about $320. But if it's translated to understandable modern English maybe it's worth the price.

$1200 is the price for the whole set from Holy Transfiguration Monastery so it's $100 a book. St. John of Kronstadt Press also prints one which is more expensive.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 08:25:54 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2009, 02:52:47 PM »

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I will ask again: what is the main difference btwn the Byzantine and Russian practice?

The most obvious difference is : a greek(or byzantine )orologion is much more thick than a russian one. For the third part of orologion:"menaion,triodion and pentekostalion"(of course not the full menaion,but a brief enchiridion for those liturgical periods), the greek one have a "day-to-day"arrangement, in other word,a small note and troparion for every single day of the liturgical circle.
But in the russian one,only contains the feasts.The idea is:since you need the full menaion,triodion and pentekostalion anyway,why make the orologion so big?

The first part of the orologion is the standard parts of services of hours.Traditionally to say,only has the readers parts of matins and vespers,the priest's parts of "main hours"(matins ,vespers,vigil)you should find them from "leitourgikon". But the litany of priest in the end of midle-night hour and compline be included in the orologion.
If I do not make mistake,the Jordanville(Holy Trinity)version put the priest's parts (even D.Liturgy) in the orologion(it's not the traditional way,but very convenient).

Current russian and greek orologion follow the same typikon,there are no many difference(you still can find some slight ones from version to version,even in the same jurisdiction.) I do not know the old rite typikon,I heard that their vigil is much different from ours.

The second part of orologion: "the optional services" widely differs from region to region.
In the greek one ,generally has the akathistos of M.H.Theotokos;the small and great paraklesis of M.H.Theotokos;the parakletikos canon of "Sweet Iesus",of "Angelos Kyriou",and special hymns(akathist+canon)of Lifegiving Wood,of most glorious Trias....
In the russian one,some times same from the greek one,but in some versions,the second part be omitted (russians has special books for akathists and supplications).
In other jurisdictions, the second part can be extremely extended.For example,the romanian orologion of the period of H.B.Patriarch Ioustinianos,has almost 20 akathists!!! (But in the time of H.B.PatriarchTheoktistos,this superfluous amount was reduced).



« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 02:54:02 PM by Elpidophoros » Logged
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