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Author Topic: Just Came From Mass  (Read 3249 times) Average Rating: 0
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Lady Holiday
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« on: September 21, 2003, 04:58:03 PM »

i just returned from attending Mass. I LOVED the liturgy, it was beautiful, i couldnt ask for anything more divine. The Church itself was a visual splendour. (incredible stained glass in the sanctuary) However i was extremely saddened by the seriously immodest clothing i saw. granted it was "college sunday" but goodness i even saw some mothers setting poor examples for their kids here and there. I simply do not understand this. I had long sleeves, long skirt and was so humbled being there that i still felt unworthy to be poresent....is this common? what can be done, because frankly i think its irreverent and disgusting. (one girl actually had a halter top on...save that junk for the disco please) am I out of whack here?
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Anastasios
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2003, 07:35:51 PM »

I think it is unfortunate that some people dress immodestly to attend worship and I think the key to averting this problem is encouraging more piety.  Just FYI the Orthodox usually refer to Mass as Divine Liturgy but Mass was used in some English texts in the beginning of this century as it was at that time common parlance.  Calling it Mass will immediately make one think of Roman Catholic Mass though as a practical thing, so hence I just wanted to let you know of the distinction.

I hope that despite the appearance of some of the people that you enjoyed the service and will go back.  You might also want to look at other Orthodox Churches in the area if there are any. Slavic ones tend to be more conservative than the Arab ones.

anastasios
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Lady Holiday
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2003, 09:00:43 PM »

Im not even sure how to encourage piety. If im not mistaken we may have an Antiochan Orthodox parish in town but we will have to look into that. we also have a chapter of OCF at the local university, so we will be contacting them too i think. hey thanks for the heads up on Divine Liturgy, I wasnt sure on that. I plan to go back because I want Orthodoxy very much, but its hard to watch people be so disrespectful. on the other hand i suppose this is a good thing....there would be a big problem if I saw nothing wrong with it.
Thanks for the reply and God Bless.
Jessica
PS- I also noticed none of the women covered their heads and none of the Preists had beards and I was almost certain that both were a mandatory thing...am I wrong?
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Anastasios
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2003, 09:06:21 PM »

Yes, you are wrong on both counts. :-)

Beards are "supposed" to be there and I prefer them, and headcoverings are ok but more of a cultural thing.  Sure St Paul says a woman should pray with her head covered but he also says long hair on a man is an abomination yet how many of us follow that custom? There are lots of Orthodox men with long hair. So I think the key is to dress respectful according to the cultural norms.  If you think wearing a headcovering is modest then go for it.

anastasios
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Linus7
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2003, 09:30:51 PM »

I think that some young women do not quite realize how distracting they can be to a young man, especially when they wear clothing that accentuates their sexuality.

I can remember as a young Protestant leaving Sunday service many times feeling confused and guilty because I was not able to keep my mind on worshiping the Lord. I was too busy ogling Suzy-Q two pews up and to the left of me. And I couldn't help it!

Suzy-Q could have helped me out some if she had covered her curves a little bit.

I know we males have a responsibility to resist lust and overcome it with God's help, but it is not always a winning fight!

So ladies, help those young guys out. Wear some clothes to Church.
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Anastasios
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2003, 09:53:37 PM »

Just because these types of arguments usuall digress into men vs. women things, I would like to point out that this summer I went to a Roman Catholic Mass where a man had on a tank top exposing half his sides. YUCK!

anastasios
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Kyrie Eleison
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2003, 10:12:01 PM »

I think that the best thimg to do at this point for you Lady is seeing as how most likely you will have a chance to talk to your priest, I think that yuou might want to mention it to him, (the clothing at Divine Liturgy issue), and I think that there is a good possibility that he will take your questions with regard and propose an ultimatum to the congregation. I could be wrong on this, but I can not see a priest condoning such behaviour especially when he is the spiritual leader of the church and also has his own spiritual welfare to consider as well.

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, Have Mercy on Me!"

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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2003, 11:21:40 PM »

Back in the good old days we would'nt worry about such things, my buddies and I would even get rid of that Juciy Fruit gum before entering Church, even wore a nice shirt and tie, and that was at thirteen.

james, a Latin struggling and wandering in the desert towards the East.
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2003, 03:56:12 AM »

Dear Lady Holiday,

I fully appreciate your comments because it is something I struggle with at church services. I have often caught myself thinking "How on earth can they think to come to church dressed like that?". But then I have to stop and try and see things from a spiritual perspective. All of us are at different levels regarding our faith and understanding and it is wrong for us to judge those who may be yet spiritual babes as it were (not that I could consider myself a spiritual adult). Instead we should fill our mind with good thoughts, praising God that this man or this woman is even standing here in church, taking part in this most awesome of mysteries. And we must pray for them that they would become enlightened and choose to dress more modestly of their own accord for the sake of we who are weak and prone to judge, remembering always that we too fall far short and can never consider ourselves better than they. With the little knowledge and understanding that they have, in God's eyes they may far outstrip us in holiness and sanctity.

I am mostly talking to myself here as I don't know you and cannot see into your heart, so please don't think these words are aimed at you.

I was just thinking that on the last day, God might say to me, "I sent my child to church, but you by your harsh attitude drove her out and she was lost.". I know that I am going to be held accountable for every thought, word and deed and this fills me with fear. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.
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katherine 2001
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2003, 10:01:03 AM »

Prodomos, you put it much better than me.  I've come to the conclusion that if I have a problem with how someone is dressed or anything else that I'm judging them on, I'm the one with the problem not them.  I have to learn to quit looking at other's faults and sins--I have more than enough of my own.  Also, true humility and modesty are character traits, not how you dress.  That person may have more inner humility and modesty than I'll ever have.  I can look modest and humble, but be full of pride on the inside.
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PhosZoe
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2003, 10:45:58 AM »

I hate to put it this way, but were you in a largely ethnic parish? The Serbian parish of  my youth were nothing but a big fashion show. Modesty was for your Baba. Smiley There is a different mentality on what  is classy.  To explain the mentality...  Many of the women that came over from Jugoslavia were overly thrilled to "dress american"  that they go a little overboard with the tight, the bright and the sleazy.

You might feel more comfortable in an all convert parish. In my experience,  the all convert parishes really push the issue for modest dress. I attended an all convert parish in recent history and received weird looks for wearing a pair of slacks. A parishoner thrust a head scarf into my hand and demanded that I cover my head. Extremes happen on both sides.

My 2 cents...

PhosZoe


I suggest that you remain modest and set a good example for the women in your parish.
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Robert
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2003, 11:07:10 AM »

Prodromos,

I couldn't have said it better. I have a tendency to judge and make hasty conclusions about people myself. I realize this is more detrimental to me than what the other person might be wearing.

Anyway, thanks for saying what needed to be said.
Bobby
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2003, 02:23:30 PM »

Humility is always in order, and it is bad to judge rashly, true. But I can't help but feel like my buttons are being pushed when I see what these women wear to church services. It's really degrading. It seems like an attempt to enslave me to my passions.

Haven't we, as virile men, been sinned against by women who dress this way?
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katherine 2001
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2003, 08:02:20 PM »

Maybe God is using these women to teach you self-control.  It's just like when you pray to God to teach you patience.  He will give you lots of practice!
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prodromos
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2003, 05:14:18 AM »

My aim in this life is to be able to look on the body of a naked woman and simply see a child of God. This is not something I spend time practicing mind you Roll Eyes, I just hope it will be the result of my efforts to bring my passions under control (or ultimately rid myself of, but I am no monastic)

unworthy John
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2003, 08:17:56 AM »

My aim in this life is to be able to look on the body of a naked woman and simply see a child of God. This is not something I spend time practicing mind you Roll Eyes

Didn't your Mama tell you about playing with fire, prodromos??!!!!  Shocked
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PhosZoe
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2003, 09:41:57 AM »

PS- I also noticed none of the women covered their heads and none of the Preists had beards and I was almost certain that both were a mandatory thing...am I wrong?

No this is NOT mandatory, contrary to popular convert belief.  Grin The use of head covering for women varies from parish to parish.  If you want to cover your head, that is totally up to you. Beards, many orthodox priests wear them, but again they are also not mandatory.  (Anyone can jump in and correct me) I think that beards are mandatory for monastics only. (Then again I have never seen a monastic without one)
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2003, 09:57:16 AM »

My aim in this life is to be able to look on the body of a naked woman and simply see a child of God. This is not something I spend time practicing mind you Roll Eyes, I just hope it will be the result of my efforts to bring my passions under control (or ultimately rid myself of, but I am no monastic)

Me to John, although I'm well past half-time in my life I guess and still fail. Sad

Do you remember the account in the Desert Fathers where a monk was walking and saw an Amma and some sisters and he crossed the road and bowed his head so that he might not look at them, and the Amma shouted at him 'If you were a real monk you wouldn't have even noticed we were women!!'.

Peter Theodore
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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2003, 01:39:20 PM »

"Haven't we, as virile men, been sinned against by women who dress this way?"

Just please bear in mind that men also do the same - Eve may have given Adam the apple, but he ate it all by himself!!

Gretchen
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2003, 08:57:28 AM »

As a Protestant kid I went to church in a fishing village one sunday when I was about 10yr old.  I'd been taught to dress in "sunday-best" as respect for God.  These men were dressed in denium overalls and look quite rough.  I'm a Southerner and had been well trained not to make comments about such things but couldn't help but wonder.  Where these people just that poor? Or was this a different cultural thing?

When we left my friend's father explained to us that it was the middle of the season and those men were loosing valuable time being in church. They were there dispite that it was hitting each in the pocketbook.  I realized that my sin was pride, those overalls were the most pious dress.
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