Author Topic: alexandrian mitre  (Read 10040 times)

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Offline samkim

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alexandrian mitre
« on: January 06, 2009, 12:36:20 AM »
What is the story behind the mitre worn by the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria? It is narrower than the typical episcopal Orthodox mitre and resembles a smaller version of a papal tiara.

Thanks.
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline samkim

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 12:39:39 AM »


주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline samkim

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 12:43:42 AM »
It also looks like he is wearing his epitrachelion outside of his sakkos. Am I mistaken? Is this a common practice?
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline Elisha

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2009, 04:36:29 AM »
samkin,
Where did you get those pics?

Offline mike

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 06:54:12 AM »
I think that they are from that synaxis which was hold in September

Offline Fr. George

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 08:15:41 AM »
What is the story behind the mitre worn by the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria? It is narrower than the typical episcopal Orthodox mitre and resembles a smaller version of a papal tiara.

It's probably a cultural difference unique to Alexandria.

It also looks like he is wearing his epitrachelion outside of his sakkos. Am I mistaken? Is this a common practice?

That's the way it appears to me, also.  No, it is certainly not a common practice - again, must be something unique to Alexandria.  I've never seen Greeks, Antiochians, or Russian/Slav/OCA Converts wear it that way.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 08:16:39 AM by cleveland »
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Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Elpidophoros

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 01:34:37 PM »

1,The special crown of Pope of Alexandria is not a "mitra".It has other name(unfortunately I forggot it...). The pope also has normal mitre,and wear it in some occasions.

2,In fact the pope of Alexandria wear two epitrachelia,the inner and the outer.He put the innner epitrachelion in the usual place and the outer over the sakkos.

Offline alexp4uni

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2009, 01:44:58 PM »
Could the St Cyril Icon be an influence in order to tame down what they saw as a Roman Papal mitre?

That really wasn't a Imperial Crown though. Though the Greeks are creative for their head dress.



Offline ialmisry

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2009, 03:07:36 PM »
Could the St Cyril Icon be an influence in order to tame down what they saw as a Roman Papal mitre?

That really wasn't a Imperial Crown though. Though the Greeks are creative for their head dress.




Actually one of the mitre is an Imperial Crown: the Pope, one time mediated between the emperor and EP, and both "took their hats off" to him.
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Offline Papist

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2009, 03:43:30 PM »
Just out of curiousity. Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria Greek Orthodox? Thanks.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline VirSpeluncaeOrthodoxae

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2009, 03:59:11 PM »
Just out of curiousity. Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria Greek Orthodox? Thanks.

To not be confused with the Coptic Pope of Alexandria.
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Offline Papist

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2009, 04:01:36 PM »
Just out of curiousity. Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria Greek Orthodox? Thanks.

To not be confused with the Coptic Pope of Alexandria.
But It thought each Church had just one patriarch. The Greeks have the EP. Is this sitution considered normal or just a concession because of the schim with the OO Church?
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2009, 05:24:02 PM »
Just out of curiousity. Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria Greek Orthodox? Thanks.

To not be confused with the Coptic Pope of Alexandria.
But It thought each Church had just one patriarch. The Greeks have the EP. Is this sitution considered normal or just a concession because of the schim with the OO Church?
There are other places the title of "Greek" is discussed on this board. The short answer is that "Greek" is not meant as an ethnic title but rather an imperial title as those that belonged to the Roman Empire. It is not "Greek" as a "Hellenic" but rather "Greek" as "Roman" and not "Roman" as "Latin." Let's keep this discussion on the vestments of the Patriarch of Alexandria because they are very unique and interesting.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 05:24:53 PM by arimethea »
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Offline Apostolos

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2009, 01:05:44 PM »
It is called if I'm not mistaken Skouphos or Spyris. Both names are used interchangeably. The name Spyris comes from the woolen or straw cap that was worn by the monks in the 4th century:

St Spyridon (the name means "he who wears a spyris"), wearing his Spyris

According to St Symeon the new Theologian (of Thessaloniki), the Patriarch of Alexandria began to wear an adorned with gold and precious stones skouphos-mitre, in the 14th century (Migne Patrologia Graeca-PG 155, 716)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 01:08:53 PM by Apostolos »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2009, 01:17:08 PM »
Just out of curiousity. Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria Greek Orthodox? Thanks.

If it makes you feel better, in Arabic he is the "Roman Orthodox."  Which is the point, from what I was told the Pope's deacon, that the crown is an imperial crown from the Roman emperor, as an honor from him, as the other miter is a gift from the EP in the Pope's honor.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2009, 01:18:19 PM »
Just out of curiousity. Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria Greek Orthodox? Thanks.

It's not "ethnic Greek" but "Greek i.e. Roman."  It was the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch as well.  It's not used as an ethnic identifier, but a religious-cultural one.  Heck, the Ecumenical Patriarch isn't "Greek Patriarch," he's the "Roman Patriarch."  Just as your "Roman Pope" isn't an ethnic pope (Roman = Italian), but a religious-cultural one (Roman = Western Christian).
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2009, 01:34:46 PM »
Just out of curiousity. Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria Greek Orthodox? Thanks.

It's not "ethnic Greek" but "Greek i.e. Roman."  It was the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch as well.  It's not used as an ethnic identifier, but a religious-cultural one.  Heck, the Ecumenical Patriarch isn't "Greek Patriarch," he's the "Roman Patriarch."  Just as your "Roman Pope" isn't an ethnic pope (Roman = Italian), but a religious-cultural one (Roman = Western Christian).

Isn't he Latin rite?
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2009, 01:43:04 PM »
It's not "ethnic Greek" but "Greek i.e. Roman."  It was the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch as well.  It's not used as an ethnic identifier, but a religious-cultural one.  Heck, the Ecumenical Patriarch isn't "Greek Patriarch," he's the "Roman Patriarch."  Just as your "Roman Pope" isn't an ethnic pope (Roman = Italian), but a religious-cultural one (Roman = Western Christian).

Isn't he Latin rite?

Indeed.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2009, 07:06:14 PM »
Just out of curiousity. Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria Greek Orthodox? Thanks.

It's not "ethnic Greek" but "Greek i.e. Roman."  It was the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch as well.  It's not used as an ethnic identifier, but a religious-cultural one.  Heck, the Ecumenical Patriarch isn't "Greek Patriarch," he's the "Roman Patriarch."  Just as your "Roman Pope" isn't an ethnic pope (Roman = Italian), but a religious-cultural one (Roman = Western Christian).

Isn't he Latin rite?

No.  There is no Latin Rite but one Latin Church with several Rites which all share Latin as their ancient liturgical language: Roman (including distinct usages of this Rite for the Carthusian, Dominican, and Cistercian Orders and Anglican use parishes ), Ambrosian, and Mozarabic.  The Pope of Rome is the Patriarch of the Latin Church, and normally uses the Roman Rite but can celebrate in any Rite he chooses.  Pope John Paul II of blessed memory celebrated the Roman, Mozarabic, and Byzantine Liturgies as principle celebrant and presided in choir in just about every other Liturgical Rite of the Catholic Church.

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Offline frost

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2009, 12:05:03 AM »
Just as an aside, the Alexandrian miter shown above looks very much like the one worn by Patriach Ilya of Georgia. You can see pictures of him at the Georgian patriarchal web-site. There is an English language section. BTW you can also find an address to send funds to help the refugees form the recent invasion - 130,000 are still homeless this Christmas.

www.patriarchate.ge

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2009, 12:14:14 AM »
Just out of curiousity. Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria Greek Orthodox? Thanks.

It's not "ethnic Greek" but "Greek i.e. Roman."  It was the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch as well.  It's not used as an ethnic identifier, but a religious-cultural one.  Heck, the Ecumenical Patriarch isn't "Greek Patriarch," he's the "Roman Patriarch."  Just as your "Roman Pope" isn't an ethnic pope (Roman = Italian), but a religious-cultural one (Roman = Western Christian).
Thank you. This is very helpful.
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Offline samkim

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2009, 11:02:25 PM »
O Cool... what's the story behind the Georgian mitre?
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline frost

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2009, 12:02:55 PM »
My wife tells me that Patriarch Ilya' mitre is many centruries old, an inheritance passed down from the ancient Patriarchs of Georgia. Looking at ancient manuscripts and illuminated manuscripts, you will see that the crowns worn by the Byzantine Emperors changed in style over time. I suspect that Patriach Ilya's mitre is just a more ancient style. BTW, Nino tells me that the mitre Patriach Ilya wears is very heavy with gold threads and jewels. It weighs about 5 kilos (about 12 lbs.) Also weding crowns used in Georgia look like an older style than those used in Russian churches. The Georgian wedding crowns are a metal chaplets with small crosses and icons and pendentives at the ears -much like the earlier forms of Byzantine crowns.

FF

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2009, 05:10:53 PM »



St Cyril of Alexandria with his polystavrion (multi-cross) skouphos
Ἄνωθεν οἱ Προφῆται. Ἦχος Βαρύς.

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Offline mike

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2009, 04:19:04 PM »
I didn't want to start a new thread because I've got a very similar question 'bout strange mitre. It's from Serbia:


Is it common in Serbia? I'm used that mitre looks like this

Offline Elpidophoros

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2009, 04:38:43 PM »
I didn't want to start a new thread because I've got a very similar question 'bout strange mitre. It's from Serbia:


Is it common in Serbia? I'm used that mitre looks like this

It's not mitra,but skoupho.It's common in Serbia:



But the mitra also is comon:

Offline mike

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2009, 04:46:19 PM »
It's not mitra,but skoupho.It's common in Serbia:


Isn't a skoupho an award for Presbyters not for Bishops?

Offline Elpidophoros

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2009, 04:57:40 PM »
It's not mitra,but skoupho.It's common in Serbia:


Isn't a skoupho an award for Presbyters not for Bishops?

In some local traditions,yes.
In other local traditions,skoupho is for "everybody"even readers and chantors...
And the serbian bishops' skoupho is a special one(liturgical)...

Offline mike

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2009, 05:04:28 PM »
In some local traditions,yes.
In other local traditions,skoupho is for "everybody"even readers and chantors...
And the serbian bishops' skoupho is a special one(liturgical)...

thanks :)
But where are they allowed to be worn even for laymen?

Offline orthodoxlurker

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2009, 05:37:11 PM »
I didn't want to start a new thread because I've got a very similar question 'bout strange mitre. It's from Serbia:


Is it common in Serbia? I'm used that mitre looks like this

No, it isn't common in Serbia.

This is a photo of retired bishop Atanasije. He introduced it about a decade and a half ago (notwithstanding the strong presence of Sinaites - monks from Sinai in 15th century in Serbia), and was the topic of comments of faithful as a fancy dress and taken as yet another extravagance of his.



Since Metropolitan Amfilohije (photo above) was many times first bishop of Serbian Orthodox Church to do something, like he was the first one who visited the Roman Pope,


and the first one to say Muslim prayer in public during the service for building an Orthodox Church

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z21NdQLVG5w

and the first one to attend entronement of a Roman Pope



Yet, Metropolitan Amfilohije has never made a public appearance in Serbia wearing the mitre like the above, but I guess he couldn't let this wave of novelties pass without his participation. Therefore, he took a photo wearing it.

Consequently, no, it isn't common in Serbia.
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Offline shep4569

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2009, 02:04:51 AM »
http://www.serborth.org/images/bishopmaxima.jpg

Is that Bishop Maxim? Or maybe his name is a little different...I think I met him at SVOTS a couple years ago. Nvm, just saw the link.

Also: Two epitrachelions is weird...that seems kinda redundant. You need two stoles representing your priestly order? I don't think so...
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 02:06:18 AM by shep4569 »
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Offline samkim

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2010, 03:03:52 PM »

Also: Two epitrachelions is weird...that seems kinda redundant. You need two stoles representing your priestly order? I don't think so...

Maybe because His Divine Beatitude is styled "Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Prelate of Prelates."
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2010, 09:53:53 PM »

But It thought each Church had just one patriarch. The Greeks have the EP.

Not all of the churches are national, but rather some are regional. This was the case with the ancient churches of the Roman Empire. Today, the EO churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem continue to be primarily regional in principal, rather than national, and thus can be identified with common ethnicities. If anything, the Greek national church is the Church of Greece rather than the EP.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2010, 11:20:08 AM »
Just out of curiousity. Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria Greek Orthodox? Thanks.

To not be confused with the Coptic Pope of Alexandria.
But It thought each Church had just one patriarch. The Greeks have the EP. Is this sitution considered normal or just a concession because of the schim with the OO Church?
There are other places the title of "Greek" is discussed on this board. The short answer is that "Greek" is not meant as an ethnic title but rather an imperial title as those that belonged to the Roman Empire. It is not "Greek" as a "Hellenic" but rather "Greek" as "Roman" and not "Roman" as "Latin." Let's keep this discussion on the vestments of the Patriarch of Alexandria because they are very unique and interesting.

Another example of this phenomena is, after the Unia became effective, the former Orthodox faithful in the Austro-Hungarian Empire were referred to as "Greek Catholics" to differentiate them from Roman Catholics in that they followed the Greek liturgical rituals.

Offline augustin717

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2010, 12:24:15 PM »
And we, that never received the "unia' were called "of the Greco-Oriental religion".
We  have some wayside crosses in our region , built during the Dual Monarchy or before "on the expenses of those of the Greco-oriental religion, non-uniate."

Offline Elpidophoros

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2010, 02:34:11 PM »
More pics on the double epitrachelia of the pope:






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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2010, 03:04:36 PM »
and the first one to attend entronement of a Roman Pope



This picture is an undeniable evidence that Orthodoxy is the true Church of Christ. Even our modernists are way cooler than Catholics! We have the best beards!

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2010, 03:09:54 PM »
More pics on the double epitrachelia of the pope:


Very beautiful pictures. Thank you!

Offline ialmisry

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Re: alexandrian mitre
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2010, 09:27:24 PM »
Just was reacquainted with this:
The ancient Coptic Churches of Egypt, Volume 2 By Alfred Joshua Butler (1882)
Quote
The practice of the Melkite Church of Alexandria agrees with that of the Coptic Church in granting the mitre or crown to bishops, as well as to the patriarch ; but dissents in having a specific form of mitre for the patriarch, different from the episcopal crown, and called by a distinguishing name. For the patriarchal mitre is called tiara, the episcopal mitra : and the distinction of shape is this, that the tiara is lofty and conical, resembling the western mitre without any cleft or horns at the top; while the mitra is a real crown, low, and rather globular than conical. It is impossible to say when this distinction arose, or for what reason. The only tiara which I have seen in Cairo is quite modern : it is made of crimson velvet, with a zone of silver or gold about an inch broad encircling the head, and from this zone four metal bands rise and meet at the top of the cone, upon which there stands a jewelled cross. Each of the four vertical divisions of the tiara encloses a porcelain medallion, painted with sacred figures, and set round with precious stones. The mitra has all the characteristics of a royal crown : it is generally made of silver gilt, more rarely of very rich velvet, covered with elaborate gold embroidery, and studded thick with jewels. The mitra, though of metal, is never of openwork : the ground is a solid plate of silver or gold, casque-like in this regard, and not a circlet with
bands of metal coming down from the top to meet it. There is at the church of St. Nicholas in Cairo a large collection of these crowns, some of which are ancient and exceedingly beautiful. The oldest there is a most magnificent specimen of silver-work and jewellery. The head-piece is of solid silver : round the bottom runs a circlet enclosing an exquisite design of small flowers repousse. Immediately above this is another zone of the richest blue enamel, in which is wrought some sacred writing in Greek characters. Above this comes a third narrow band of delicate work, raised, and standing out from the ground ; and all the points and angles of the design enclosed are set with lustrous jewels. The globe or main body of the crown is marked off into four equal compartments by vertical bands descending from a circlet near the top. These bands are of open silver work, soldered on to the ground, like the third of the narrow circlets just mentioned. In the centre of each compartment, and slightly raised, is an oval medallion of superb enamel, in which the Virgin, our Lord, and other sacred figures are wrought in soft yet resplendent colours, red, green, and blue ; and round every medallion runs a border of costly gems. The circlet round the top of the crown, too, which receives the four vertical bands, is richly jewelled on the edges, while the interior consists of blue enamel enclosing a text from Holy Writ in Greek letters. But the topmost point is covered with a large boss, which tapers upwards in three low stages, all set with precious stones, and on the summit stands a small cross. From the style of the enamelling and of the workmanship generally, I think that this most sumptuous and splendid mitre may be assigned to the eleventh or twelfth century: but no description and no picture can convey any idea of its beauty.

In the same treasury I saw several other crowns, all of rich metal work or jewelled embroidery, and some of them ancient. In every case the crown is surmounted by a cross, which is a characteristic feature of the bishop's head-dress, both Greek and Coptic.
http://books.google.com/books?id=vgE4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA207&dq=ancient+coptic+butler+tiara&hl=en&ei=t8A7TM6WOtChnQey7pGsDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

There's more, search tiara or mitre.  It also discusses the practise of Jerusalem, Antioch, Armenia etc.
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