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« on: January 02, 2009, 06:10:07 AM »

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown." - Gen. 6:4 NIV

Where does the word nephilim in the NIV translation come from? Were they "giants," as other translations (KJV, OSB, etc.) say?
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« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2009, 08:01:26 AM »

There is no note on these in the OSB although the translation of "giants" is used. In the apocryphal  book of Enoch (in the Ethiopian Orthodox canon) these nephilim are also identified as "giants" as born from the adultery of the fallen angels with mortal women. "And the women conceiving brought forth giants, Whose stature was each 300 cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them; And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, and to drink their blood. Then the earth reproved the unrighteous." (Enoch 7:11-15). There is a note that says these verses are quoted as between verses 8 & 9 of the next (8th) chapter in an 8th c fragment by the Orthodox monk George Syncellus in a slight variation from the Ethopic scroll translated by Anglican Archbishop Richard Laurence in the early 19th c.
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2009, 08:34:54 AM »

According to Elder Cleopa, the giants resulted when the heirs of Set mixed with those of Cain.
He is quoting a book translated into Romanian in 1837, "Hronograful lui Gheorghe Chedrinos". The author seems to Greek, Gheorghios Kedrinos. Hronograf is a book concerning Genesis.
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2009, 12:31:30 PM »

There's also an episode of the X-Files that deals with this though I don't believe that that is as authoritative as what [little] Scripture tells us.  Jusy saying.
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2009, 12:52:15 PM »

Our OT professor at HC was an expert on this subject, so I have a TON of notes on it, so if you're interested in more let me know...but hopefully this will wet your appetite...
Quote
The nephilim were flesh but there was no soul.  Origen said that the souls of these nephilim are demons, the original ones, looming around to be punished by God and not having access to Sheol like the rest of the souls.  When we read about the demoniac story in the Gospels, b/c it was the assumption that the demons were roaming here until the judgment comes and then God will ask them some questions.  They will be punished at the end of time, etc. 

So, the flood was a direct response to destroy the Nephilim.  This was the second very powerful attempt to destroy the image of God in man.  The first one was Cain.  The image of God in man is the cross, love God and neighbor, to destroy the horizontal responsibility to the other, and now the second one to destroy the horizontal.  He destroyed the soul in man, so there was nothing to be redeemed, on soul, just a body, so he destroyed that hybrid human race.  So he needed to restore the human race.  The flood is the foreshadowing of the baptism b/c it is a restoration. 

Genesis 6:3 we have a word:  my soul will not “katameno” remain down.  In Hebrew we have the word that you cannot even translate.  The word “yadon” vocalizing it in a way only the Massorits knew.  In no dictionary will you find this word, so we don’t know what the Massorits intended.  But you can revocalize this into “yadin” coming from the word “din” meaning to intercede.  So, my spirit will not intercede for these people.  What is the spirit in our tradition.  The spirit is a lawyer, an interpreter.  We don’t pray ourselves, but the spirit is praying “abba” so he is interceding for us. 

Nephilim comes from “nbl” meaning to fall.  The Septuagint word is “gigantes” meaning “giants” so why the translation here in the LXX?  There is a corollary text in Enoch.  The sons of the anachi are called “nephilim” having high proportions, so they are the ‘big ones’ so imagine the LXX translator, having the text in Numbers, encountering the word “nephilim” happening only 3 times in the OT, referring to a tribe of tall people.  So the nephilim was translated immediately as giants, b/c they are described this way.  So they go to Genesis and see “nephilim” and they thought that these guys survived the flood, and are in Canaan and they had to fight them.  The hybrid souls were alive, but the bodies were killed in the flood.  They did not have human souls, but rather hybrid souls condemned to roam in the world. 

Also, Numbers 13 speaks to the Nephilim, I don't remember exactly where though...

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« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2009, 02:39:03 PM »

There's also an episode of the X-Files that deals with this though I don't believe that that is as authoritative as what [little] Scripture tells us.  Jusy saying.

Yes, I remember the episode. I was an X-files junkie. Smiley But it was mostly fiction.
A seraphim returned to Earth to bring to Heaven his 4 children, the nephilims, who  were symbolised by the lion, the bull, the eagle and the man (who actually represent the 4 evangelists). Their bodies were left carbonized after they met their father. And the devil was after them, but a priest who had St Peter's cross at his neck protected them. Just fiction Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2009, 03:20:45 PM »

'Bnei elohim' in the Hebrew version can also be translated with te sons of the judges (leaders).
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2009, 04:58:36 PM »

The only other place I remember hearing the term was in Madeleine L'engle's Many Waters.  They were the sexy, bad "angels".
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 06:15:05 PM »

Very interesting stuff! I have even heard of UFO's being ascribed to the nephilim. It's possible. Also, perhaps satan was trying to corrupt the human blood line, from which the Savior would come.
I am Ethiopian Orthodox, and we accept Enoch as part of our canon. But in our Synaxarium (Tir 06), it indicates that the nephilim were the offspring of the children of Seth and the children of Cain. So, I am trying to get a clear cut interpretation. Any EOTC Christians (or other OO) that can answer this? I'm awaiting an answer from Adis Ababa; when I get it I will post it here.
Thanks for any help!
Selam
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 12:41:09 AM »

Very interesting stuff! I have even heard of UFO's being ascribed to the nephilim. It's possible. Also, perhaps satan was trying to corrupt the human blood line, from which the Savior would come.
I am Ethiopian Orthodox, and we accept Enoch as part of our canon. But in our Synaxarium (Tir 06), it indicates that the nephilim were the offspring of the children of Seth and the children of Cain. So, I am trying to get a clear cut interpretation. Any EOTC Christians (or other OO) that can answer this? I'm awaiting an answer from Adis Ababa; when I get it I will post it here.
Thanks for any help!
Selam


This might help:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18437.msg273448.html#msg273448

God bless.
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2009, 05:19:39 PM »

Peace to Everyone,

I hope that the Fast of Nineveh was a blessing.  I apologize for not replying or being active in the conversations for quite some time now. 

As far as the question concerning the Nephilim: Serb1389's post was great.  I mean, in the Traditional Ethiopian Interpretations (Andemta/Tergwame), you will find a combination of the Church Father's ideologies (if you will) blended into a few commentaries, provided by Ethiopian Scholars (memhirs).  Let me explain...

The commentaries of the Church Fathers have come down to Ethiopia, even in Pre-Christian times of course, through the acceptance of the Law and Prophets.  So, when Menelik I returned from the Holy Land, 318 scholars were sent with him in order that the Holy Books up until that time, be translated from Ge'ez to Hebrew (and even Aramaic).  Thus, you have in Ethiopia, Old Testament commentary according to tradition (tewfit).  After Christianity was accepted by Ethiopia (mainly the nobles) in the 1st Century, from that time onward, commentary progressed in the Abyssinian Church and realm.  During the early centuries of the Church (Universal and Local), the early Christian apologetics began to produce more and more commentary on the New and Old Testament scripture, along with the oral tradition. 

When Christianity bloomed (4th to 8th Centuries) for the second time in Ethiopia, various sources of commentary entered Her from different traditions, namely Alexandria, Syria and Asia Minor.  Later on, the Mesopotamian fathers highly influenced Ethiopian commentary. 

Now, in a lot of the Ge'ez commentary, it is Memhir Esdras (an Ethiopian monk and scholar) that has brought together all of the commentaries, as if they were ingredients and has made a tremendously large cake, the Traditional Ethiopian Commentary.  It is said that Memhir Esdras memorized over 600 of these books, perhaps on commentary and history. 

In conclusion, the Origen commentary is most likely one of the sources that the TEC has received and deposited in the compilation of commentaries (concerning the GIANTS in Genesis).  This is according to my feeble knowledge. 

Again, according to my feeble knowledge, I would add to what was previously written that, the children of the daughter's of Cain (Qa'ay'l) were as tall as eight stories (of a building) and as small as rats.  There was chaos, fighting and the Giants hunger could not be satisfied, therefore they began to become cannibals.  Therefore, men formed weapons out of metals, they committed mass and gruesome murders and it became unimaginable, that the Image of God transformed to this state.  Eventually, God caused it to flood...

I read (I cannot recall the post, perhaps on Serb1389's) that there were Giants in the land of Canaan.  This is true.  The Giants spoken of were Canaanites, the sons of Ham, but this is a different era. They were very tall and may be the ancestors of the Omo, of southern Ethiopia, in the Omo Valley.  When all of the heathen were fighting in the Land of Canaan, a land that did not belong to the children of Ham, the righteous Melketsidek, mediated peace there; hence the name, King of Salem.  He was a not descended from Shem. On the other hand, it is said that he is Cushitic. He received the bones of the Patriarchs (Adam, Seth, Henos, etc.) from Shem, according to his father's (Noah) command and buried them in Karanio of Dudalem (the Center of Jerusalem). 

...In this place did Abraham attempt to sacrifice Isaac and in this place it is now called Mount Calvary, where the Lord Christ was crucified.  Melketsidek used to offer incense at the tomb of Adam day and night, and was seen until Abraham's victory, when he defeated the heathen kings, crossed the Jordan and received the wine and bread.  Afterward, he cut the hair and nails of Melketsidek and then Melketsidek was not seen again...

So, the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Church does not support the idea of aliens (UFO's).  That may be another topic, because some would like to know if they comparable to us, didn't they need salvation (being of the creation)?

This is just an example of the Traditional Ethiopian Commentary.  I only wrote from my weak memory, so please do not quote me word for word in a discussion.

Thank you and I hope that this gave you an idea of what the tradition states...

Peace,

haileAmanuel
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2009, 05:44:12 PM »

Peace to Everyone,

I hope that the Fast of Nineveh was a blessing.  I apologize for not replying or being active in the conversations for quite some time now. 

As far as the question concerning the Nephilim: Serb1389's post was great.  I mean, in the Traditional Ethiopian Interpretations (Andemta/Tergwame), you will find a combination of the Church Father's ideologies (if you will) blended into a few commentaries, provided by Ethiopian Scholars (memhirs).  Let me explain...

The commentaries of the Church Fathers have come down to Ethiopia, even in Pre-Christian times of course, through the acceptance of the Law and Prophets.  So, when Menelik I returned from the Holy Land, 318 scholars were sent with him in order that the Holy Books up until that time, be translated from Ge'ez to Hebrew (and even Aramaic).  Thus, you have in Ethiopia, Old Testament commentary according to tradition (tewfit).  After Christianity was accepted by Ethiopia (mainly the nobles) in the 1st Century, from that time onward, commentary progressed in the Abyssinian Church and realm.  During the early centuries of the Church (Universal and Local), the early Christian apologetics began to produce more and more commentary on the New and Old Testament scripture, along with the oral tradition. 

When Christianity bloomed (4th to 8th Centuries) for the second time in Ethiopia, various sources of commentary entered Her from different traditions, namely Alexandria, Syria and Asia Minor.  Later on, the Mesopotamian fathers highly influenced Ethiopian commentary. 

Now, in a lot of the Ge'ez commentary, it is Memhir Esdras (an Ethiopian monk and scholar) that has brought together all of the commentaries, as if they were ingredients and has made a tremendously large cake, the Traditional Ethiopian Commentary.  It is said that Memhir Esdras memorized over 600 of these books, perhaps on commentary and history. 

In conclusion, the Origen commentary is most likely one of the sources that the TEC has received and deposited in the compilation of commentaries (concerning the GIANTS in Genesis).  This is according to my feeble knowledge. 

Again, according to my feeble knowledge, I would add to what was previously written that, the children of the daughter's of Cain (Qa'ay'l) were as tall as eight stories (of a building) and as small as rats.  There was chaos, fighting and the Giants hunger could not be satisfied, therefore they began to become cannibals.  Therefore, men formed weapons out of metals, they committed mass and gruesome murders and it became unimaginable, that the Image of God transformed to this state.  Eventually, God caused it to flood...

I read (I cannot recall the post, perhaps on Serb1389's) that there were Giants in the land of Canaan.  This is true.  The Giants spoken of were Canaanites, the sons of Ham, but this is a different era. They were very tall and may be the ancestors of the Omo, of southern Ethiopia, in the Omo Valley.  When all of the heathen were fighting in the Land of Canaan, a land that did not belong to the children of Ham, the righteous Melketsidek, mediated peace there; hence the name, King of Salem.  He was a not descended from Shem. On the other hand, it is said that he is Cushitic. He received the bones of the Patriarchs (Adam, Seth, Henos, etc.) from Shem, according to his father's (Noah) command and buried them in Karanio of Dudalem (the Center of Jerusalem). 

...In this place did Abraham attempt to sacrifice Isaac and in this place it is now called Mount Calvary, where the Lord Christ was crucified.  Melketsidek used to offer incense at the tomb of Adam day and night, and was seen until Abraham's victory, when he defeated the heathen kings, crossed the Jordan and received the wine and bread.  Afterward, he cut the hair and nails of Melketsidek and then Melketsidek was not seen again...

So, the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Church does not support the idea of aliens (UFO's).  That may be another topic, because some would like to know if they comparable to us, didn't they need salvation (being of the creation)?

This is just an example of the Traditional Ethiopian Commentary.  I only wrote from my weak memory, so please do not quote me word for word in a discussion.

Thank you and I hope that this gave you an idea of what the tradition states...

Peace,

haileAmanuel

Thank you for that explanantion my brother. Is it possible to find this Traditional Ethiopian Commentary in English? I would very much like to have it.

Regarding UFO's: I wanted to know if perhaps these are demonic manifestaions. I have heard that some of the desert Fathers witnessed similar phenomenon, but that they recognized these "UFO's" as demons.

Thank you again for your thorough answer.

Selam
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2009, 07:02:51 PM »

Regarding UFO's: I wanted to know if perhaps these are demonic manifestaions. I have heard that some of the desert Fathers witnessed similar phenomenon, but that they recognized these "UFO's" as demons.

You definitely should read Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Fr Seraphim Rose.  A large part of this book speaks specifically about Orthodoxy's perspective of aliens/UFOs.

God bless
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2009, 03:02:23 PM »

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown." - Gen. 6:4 NIV

Where does the word nephilim in the NIV translation come from? Were they "giants," as other translations (KJV, OSB, etc.) say?

I hope it is okay to resurrect an old thread like this. I was going to start a thread, but, obviously, there is no point. . . 

Here is an interesting read:

http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/110/

(I am sorry, HaileAmanuel and Gebre, I haven't read your posts yet). It is my understanding that there are a couple of traditions regarding this issue - the "mischievous angels" tradition and the "sons of Seth" tradition.  Personally, I believe the "mischievous angels" tradition. The strange events recorded in Genesis 6 were understood by the ancient rabbinical sources, as well as the Septuagint translators, as referring to fallen angels procreating weird hybrid offspring with human women-known as the "Nephilim" (see the link).  I am with St. Justin Martyr on this one. St. Ireneaus of Lyons writes:

"For unlawful unions occurred on earth, as angels united themselves with daughters of men, who bore them sons who, because of their exaggerated height, were called giants (cf. Gen 6.2-4). The angels then gave their wives, as gifts, wicked teachings, for they taught them the powers of roots and herbs, of dyeing and cosmetics, and the discovery of precious material, love-potions, hatreds, loves, infatuations, seductions, bonds of witchcraft, and all kinds of divination and idolatry hateful to God. When these entered the world, the things of wickedness overabounded, while those of righteousness decreased, until judgement came upon the world from God […]" (A demonstration of the apostolic preaching, 18, 19).

Now, I am thinking about creation and evolution (again).  I shall ponder. .(in silence).

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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2009, 03:52:37 PM »

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown." - Gen. 6:4 NIV

Where does the word nephilim in the NIV translation come from? Were they "giants," as other translations (KJV, OSB, etc.) say?

I hope it is okay to resurrect an old thread like this.
If you have something of value to contribute, as you did, we actually prefer that you do. Wink  We just think it odd when someone resurrects a thread to post nothing of any substance.
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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2009, 06:31:13 PM »



"For unlawful unions occurred on earth, as angels united themselves with daughters of men, who bore them sons who, because of their exaggerated height, were called giants (cf. Gen 6.2-4). The angels then gave their wives, as gifts, wicked teachings, for they taught them the powers of roots and herbs, of dyeing and cosmetics, and the discovery of precious material, love-potions, hatreds, loves, infatuations, seductions, bonds of witchcraft, and all kinds of divination and idolatry hateful to God. When these entered the world, the things of wickedness overabounded, while those of righteousness decreased, until judgement came upon the world from God […]" (A demonstration of the apostolic preaching, 18, 19).

Now, I am thinking about creation and evolution (again).  I shall ponder. .(in silence).


[/quote]
I heard Pastor Murray From Shepherds chapel mention this above  i  agree with him ..He did Mention That the last giant That the shepherd Boy ,The Chosen of God and future king david killed was the last hybrid giant.....
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2009, 06:49:13 PM »

Our OT professor at HC was an expert on this subject, so I have a TON of notes on it, so if you're interested in more let me know...but hopefully this will wet your appetite...
Quote
The nephilim were flesh but there was no soul.  Origen said that the souls of these nephilim are demons, the original ones, looming around to be punished by God and not having access to Sheol like the rest of the souls.  When we read about the demoniac story in the Gospels, b/c it was the assumption that the demons were roaming here until the judgment comes and then God will ask them some questions.  They will be punished at the end of time, etc. 

So, the flood was a direct response to destroy the Nephilim.  This was the second very powerful attempt to destroy the image of God in man.  The first one was Cain.  The image of God in man is the cross, love God and neighbor, to destroy the horizontal responsibility to the other, and now the second one to destroy the horizontal.  He destroyed the soul in man, so there was nothing to be redeemed, on soul, just a body, so he destroyed that hybrid human race.  So he needed to restore the human race.  The flood is the foreshadowing of the baptism b/c it is a restoration. 

Genesis 6:3 we have a word:  my soul will not “katameno” remain down.  In Hebrew we have the word that you cannot even translate.  The word “yadon” vocalizing it in a way only the Massorits knew.  In no dictionary will you find this word, so we don’t know what the Massorits intended.  But you can revocalize this into “yadin” coming from the word “din” meaning to intercede.  So, my spirit will not intercede for these people.  What is the spirit in our tradition.  The spirit is a lawyer, an interpreter.  We don’t pray ourselves, but the spirit is praying “abba” so he is interceding for us. 

Nephilim comes from “nbl” meaning to fall.  The Septuagint word is “gigantes” meaning “giants” so why the translation here in the LXX?  There is a corollary text in Enoch.  The sons of the anachi are called “nephilim” having high proportions, so they are the ‘big ones’ so imagine the LXX translator, having the text in Numbers, encountering the word “nephilim” happening only 3 times in the OT, referring to a tribe of tall people.  So the nephilim was translated immediately as giants, b/c they are described this way.  So they go to Genesis and see “nephilim” and they thought that these guys survived the flood, and are in Canaan and they had to fight them.  The hybrid souls were alive, but the bodies were killed in the flood.  They did not have human souls, but rather hybrid souls condemned to roam in the world. 

Also, Numbers 13 speaks to the Nephilim, I don't remember exactly where though...




Great post! I saw the samething in many of the works of the ANF's.








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