Author Topic: Convert hierarchs?  (Read 10476 times)

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Offline mike

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Convert hierarchs?
« on: December 27, 2008, 03:02:59 PM »
Are there some more modern convert hierarchs apart from metropolitan Jonah?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2008, 03:15:06 PM »
Are there some more modern convert hierarchs apart from metropolitan Jonah?

In the OCA alone, two of his closest "contenders" for the metropolate (neither as far I know wanted it, one expressly saying no) were HG Job (from the Vatican), and HG Tikhon (from the episcoplians).  There was Archbp Peter L'Huillier (who is said to have been the foremost expert on canon law), and I seem to recall it being that the majority of the Holy Synod of the OCA are converts.  Our bishop Mark (Antiochian) is from the Pentacostals.  And of course there is Kallistos Ware, Metropolitan Anthony Bloom.  Although not a hierarch, nor yet formally canonized, there was Fr. Seraphim Rose.
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Offline mike

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2008, 03:20:56 PM »
Thanks. And what about primates?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2008, 05:54:20 PM »
Are there some more modern convert hierarchs apart from metropolitan Jonah?

In the OCA alone, two of his closest "contenders" for the metropolate (neither as far I know wanted it, one expressly saying no) were HG Job (from the Vatican), and HG Tikhon (from the episcoplians).  There was Archbp Peter L'Huillier (who is said to have been the foremost expert on canon law), and I seem to recall it being that the majority of the Holy Synod of the OCA are converts.  Our bishop Mark (Antiochian) is from the Pentacostals.  And of course there is Kallistos Ware, Metropolitan Anthony Bloom.  Although not a hierarch, nor yet formally canonized, there was Fr. Seraphim Rose.
Bishop Benjamin of the OCA Diocese of the West (third behind Bp. Jonah and Abp. Job in the recent vote for OCA Metropolitan) also converted to the Orthodox faith--I want to say he was previously Lutheran, but I'm not sure.
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Offline mike

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2008, 06:10:03 PM »
That's very interesting. I used to think that OCA (especially clergy) mainly consists of descendans of Russian immigrants. I'm glad to see, that I was wrong.

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2008, 06:38:41 PM »
That's very interesting. I used to think that OCA (especially clergy) mainly consists of descendans of Russian immigrants. I'm glad to see, that I was wrong.
The OCA really never has consisted of descendants of Russian immigrants. Most of the immigrants who made up the Metropolia (the pre cursor to the OCA) were from your neck of the woods. While they may have come from areas controlled by Russia they are ethnically Poles, Carps, Ukies, and Lemkos.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2008, 06:44:00 PM »
Archbishop Nathaniel was Romanian Greek Catholic priest before coming to the OCA.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2008, 10:42:21 PM »
Thanks. And what about primates?

You mean autocephalous or autonomous?  Not so likely, as only a few areas would have the odds in favor of that: most of those areas have either everyone already Orthodox, at least in name, or places where the dynamics favor a "native" Orthodox.  The OCA comes to mind of course, but perhaps the Churches of Japan or Finland might (the latter I doubt though).  The Czech and Slovak Church must have at one time, as it is almost all convert in origin.  I would say Poland has odds on it happening, but I don't know enough and certainly not as much as you on that.

One place that would be different would be Albania: the present primate is from an Orthodox family, but his likely successor is from a Muslim background.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 10:43:31 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2008, 10:44:16 PM »
That's very interesting. I used to think that OCA (especially clergy) mainly consists of descendans of Russian immigrants. I'm glad to see, that I was wrong.
The OCA really never has consisted of descendants of Russian immigrants. Most of the immigrants who made up the Metropolia (the pre cursor to the OCA) were from your neck of the woods. While they may have come from areas controlled by Russia they are ethnically Poles, Carps, Ukies, and Lemkos.

Don't forget the Aleuts, Yupiks and other Amerindians.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2008, 05:53:40 AM »
The OCA comes to mind of course, but perhaps the Churches of Japan or Finland might (the latter I doubt though).
I think HE bishop Ambrose of Helsinki is a convert from Lutheranism but at least I've never heard that HE Archbishop Leo of Finland would be a convert.

Offline Elisha

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2008, 06:22:12 AM »
Don't forget HE Dmitri of Dallas and the South - the first convert bishop in the country.

Offline mike

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2008, 01:56:25 PM »
Thanks a lot. I was curious about autonomous Churches also.

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2008, 10:15:55 AM »
I found that ROCOR's bishop Jerome of Manhattan is also - former Episcopalian.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 10:18:08 AM by mike »

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2008, 12:16:29 PM »
Are there some more modern convert hierarchs apart from metropolitan Jonah?

Archbishop Seraphim of Canada (OCA) is a convert from Anglicanism.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2010, 02:26:36 PM »
ROCOR in Germany now has a Lutheran-born Archbishop for the second time: Mark (Arndt). The first was Serafim (Lade), who died in 1950.

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2010, 02:29:25 PM »
Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania is also a convert from Episcopalianism.
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2010, 02:39:27 PM »
Bishop George of ROCOR was raised Roman Catholic.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2010, 03:23:41 PM »
I thought Bishop MARK of the Antiochian Diocese of Toledo and the Midwest was a convert from Roman Catholicism.
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Offline Robb

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2010, 03:38:36 PM »
Bishop Tikhon (Stephen Fitzgerald), the former head of the OCA diocese of the west was a convert from Lutheranism (I believe).

It seems like an awful lot of Lutherans end up Orthodox. Is there some parallel between their religion and the OC that would lead so many to embrace the Orthodoxy?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 03:38:52 PM by Robb »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2010, 03:48:59 PM »
I thought Bishop MARK of the Antiochian Diocese of Toledo and the Midwest was a convert from Roman Catholicism.
via Pentacostalism.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2010, 03:50:44 PM »
Bishop Tikhon (Stephen Fitzgerald), the former head of the OCA diocese of the west was a convert from Lutheranism (I believe).

It seems like an awful lot of Lutherans end up Orthodox. Is there some parallel between their religion and the OC that would lead so many to embrace the Orthodoxy?
Not really, except is is more liturgical for the main than the evangelical and not Calvinist, and has some belief in the real presence and hierarchy-the Lutheran churches of Sweden and Finland claim apostolic succession.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2010, 03:52:54 PM »
Thanks. And what about primates?

You mean autocephalous or autonomous?  Not so likely, as only a few areas would have the odds in favor of that: most of those areas have either everyone already Orthodox, at least in name, or places where the dynamics favor a "native" Orthodox.  The OCA comes to mind of course, but perhaps the Churches of Japan or Finland might (the latter I doubt though).  The Czech and Slovak Church must have at one time, as it is almost all convert in origin.  I would say Poland has odds on it happening, but I don't know enough and certainly not as much as you on that.

One place that would be different would be Albania: the present primate is from an Orthodox family, but his likely successor is from a Muslim background.

St. Archbishop Gorazd of Czechoslovakia was a convert from the Vatican, via a sort of Old Catholic group that was begining.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2010, 04:05:40 PM »
Bishop Tikhon (Stephen Fitzgerald), the former head of the OCA diocese of the west was a convert from Lutheranism (I believe).

It seems like an awful lot of Lutherans end up Orthodox. Is there some parallel between their religion and the OC that would lead so many to embrace the Orthodoxy?

A lot of Lutherans become Orthodox but it seems that the "evangelization" emphasis has been more on Episcopalians as Episcopalians and Orthodox interactions in this country have a long history.  St. Raphael of Brooklyn was very involved in the Episcopalian--Orthodox dialogues, but eventually quit when he could not countenance the Episcopalians' claims that their orders and sacraments were just as valid as Orthodox and could be given to Orthodox Christians without any problems.

On another note, I can't give any specifics about this, but it seems that most Episcopalian clergy who convert start Western Rite parishes while Lutherans generally go for the Eastern Rite.  That's been my observation and may very well not be the full truth.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2010, 04:06:09 PM »
I thought Bishop MARK of the Antiochian Diocese of Toledo and the Midwest was a convert from Roman Catholicism.
via Pentacostalism.

Interesting. Didn't know that.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2010, 04:20:55 PM »
Bishop Tikhon (Stephen Fitzgerald), the former head of the OCA diocese of the west was a convert from Lutheranism (I believe).

It seems like an awful lot of Lutherans end up Orthodox. Is there some parallel between their religion and the OC that would lead so many to embrace the Orthodoxy?

A lot of Lutherans become Orthodox but it seems that the "evangelization" emphasis has been more on Episcopalians as Episcopalians and Orthodox interactions in this country have a long history.  St. Raphael of Brooklyn was very involved in the Episcopalian--Orthodox dialogues, but eventually quit when he could not countenance the Episcopalians' claims that their orders and sacraments were just as valid as Orthodox and could be given to Orthodox Christians without any problems.

On another note, I can't give any specifics about this, but it seems that most Episcopalian clergy who convert start Western Rite parishes while Lutherans generally go for the Eastern Rite.  That's been my observation and may very well not be the full truth.
Not sure if we can tell, given that the WRO option isn't as well advertised as it should. Holy Incarnation WRO in Detroit's priest, Fr. John Fenton, was Lutheran.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2010, 04:39:59 PM »
Bishop Tikhon (Stephen Fitzgerald), the former head of the OCA diocese of the west was a convert from Lutheranism (I believe).

It seems like an awful lot of Lutherans end up Orthodox. Is there some parallel between their religion and the OC that would lead so many to embrace the Orthodoxy?

A lot of Lutherans become Orthodox but it seems that the "evangelization" emphasis has been more on Episcopalians as Episcopalians and Orthodox interactions in this country have a long history.  St. Raphael of Brooklyn was very involved in the Episcopalian--Orthodox dialogues, but eventually quit when he could not countenance the Episcopalians' claims that their orders and sacraments were just as valid as Orthodox and could be given to Orthodox Christians without any problems.

On another note, I can't give any specifics about this, but it seems that most Episcopalian clergy who convert start Western Rite parishes while Lutherans generally go for the Eastern Rite.  That's been my observation and may very well not be the full truth.
Not sure if we can tell, given that the WRO option isn't as well advertised as it should. Holy Incarnation WRO in Detroit's priest, Fr. John Fenton, was Lutheran.

I know Fr. John.  He is the ONLY Lutheran I know of who stuck with Western Rite. The others I know including Fr. Gregory (Hogg) went Eastern Rite. 

The Western Rite church here in Omaha has had two former Episcopalians as its priests.
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Offline Robert W

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2010, 06:39:18 PM »
Another convert from Lutheranism is Metropolitan JOHANNES of Nicea, former Archbishop and primate of the Finnish Orthodox Church.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/John_(Rinne)_of_Nicea
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nikean-metropoliitta-Johannes/207163543488

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2010, 11:23:49 PM »
Another convert from Lutheranism is Metropolitan JOHANNES of Nicea, former Archbishop and primate of the Finnish Orthodox Church.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/John_(Rinne)_of_Nicea
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nikean-metropoliitta-Johannes/207163543488

Why/how did he translate to Nicea?
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Offline CCTE

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2010, 01:06:07 AM »
Auxiliary-Bishop Marc ALRIC is a french convert from romano-catholicism. He is the assistant bishop of the metropolitan Iosif, of the Romanian Orthodox Metropolitan see for western and southern Europe.
http://www.mitropolia.eu/ro/site/66/

Offline Robb

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2010, 01:21:42 AM »
Lutherans don't really have a structured liturgical service anyway so I guess that there isn't much of a "rite" so to speak for them to be attached too.

Are there still a lot of Baptist and other evangelicals coming into Orthodoxy like there were 20 years ago, or mostly mainline Prots these days?
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2010, 01:35:14 AM »
Lutherans don't really have a structured liturgical service anyway so I guess that there isn't much of a "rite" so to speak for them to be attached too.

Are there still a lot of Baptist and other evangelicals coming into Orthodoxy like there were 20 years ago, or mostly mainline Prots these days?

Coming into Orthodoxy? Yeah

Being Bishops? Nah...probably not...maybe sub-deacons, deacons, and priests, but being an un-married clergy is not that attractive to alot of lower church protestant groups.....and so most of them settle and are satisfied with the sub-deacon, deacon, and priest spot.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2010, 01:45:36 AM »
It seems like an awful lot of Lutherans end up Orthodox. Is there some parallel between their religion and the OC that would lead so many to embrace the Orthodoxy?

Originally coming from Lutheranism myself, I can only say the following: Luther's idea was to restore original Christianity, as it was before Rome changed some things. Due to the lack of information available at his time, he failed of course. But some Lutherans still take that original idea seriously, and thus they develop an interest in the Old Church or go as far as joining the Orthodox Church.

Here in Germany, many conservative Lutherans are also quite liturgical (and every Lutheran service is supposed to be structered - nothing really informal there) , that includes both "high church Lutherans" and confessional Lutherans. The probably most "high-ranking" German convert is Karl Christian Felmy, who is the son of a High Church Lutheran pastor.
Karl Christian Felmy himself used to be professor of Lutheran theology and dean of a Lutheran theological faculty. In his academical work, he published a lot about Orthodox matters, and four years after retiring, he became Orthodox.


Actually, most converts here seem to have been Lutheran before, at least the ones who were actively religious before. Roman Catholics who are dissatisfied with their local parish (and most of their parishes are quite Cafeteria Catholic) rather tend to join the Tridentine Rite, Opus Dei, Neocatechumenal Way or even the Uniates.

Offline Robert W

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2010, 02:33:29 AM »
Another convert from Lutheranism is Metropolitan JOHANNES of Nicea, former Archbishop and primate of the Finnish Orthodox Church.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/John_(Rinne)_of_Nicea
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nikean-metropoliitta-Johannes/207163543488

Why/how did he translate to Nicea?
Metropolitan Johannes is an old man. It's doubtful if he even has the strength to conduct a liturgy. He resigned as Archbishop because of his age, and got appointed by the Patriarchate as titular Metropolitan of Nicea. He has not moved to Turkey or anything but is living in Finland.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 02:34:04 AM by Robert W »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2010, 02:40:22 AM »
Another convert from Lutheranism is Metropolitan JOHANNES of Nicea, former Archbishop and primate of the Finnish Orthodox Church.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/John_(Rinne)_of_Nicea
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nikean-metropoliitta-Johannes/207163543488

Why/how did he translate to Nicea?
Metropolitan Johannes is an old man. It's doubtful if he even has the strength to conduct a liturgy. He resigned as Archbishop because of his age, and got appointed by the Patriarchate as titular Metropolitan of Nicea. He has not moved to Turkey or anything but is living in Finland.
That's a shame.  Nicea is in fine retirement country.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2010, 06:22:14 AM »
I agree with ialmisry. Finland is a wonderful place to be, but isn't the climate in Winter a bit hard for the old and sick?

Look at Iznik (Nicaea), I would love to retire there.

Offline Robert W

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2010, 07:25:21 AM »
 ;D ;D ;D Gorazd and ialmisry , you are both forgetting that Metropolitan Johannes is Finnish, speaks Finnish and has his close ones in Finland. Nicea is a nice place and all but they all speak Turkish there and he wouldn't know anyone over there. As far as I have understood Nicea is a titular see because all the Orthodox of that area had been forced to leave long ago. I wouldn't go live there in my old age, I would like to be at home.  ;D

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2010, 07:56:46 AM »
Here in Germany, many people retire to Turkey (or Spain). And even though Greeks were forced out around 1920, I am sure there are some Russians and Ukrainians in Nicaea nowadays, like all over Turkey. Does the older generation of Finnish priests still know Russian?

Anyway, it would be cool to have a bishop in the city of the Holy Council.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2010, 10:21:38 AM »
;D ;D ;D Gorazd and ialmisry , you are both forgetting that Metropolitan Johannes is Finnish, speaks Finnish and has his close ones in Finland. Nicea is a nice place and all but they all speak Turkish there and he wouldn't know anyone over there. As far as I have understood Nicea is a titular see because all the Orthodox of that area had been forced to leave long ago. I wouldn't go live there in my old age, I would like to be at home.  ;D

I know he is Finnish and speaks Finnish. That's why I know he has his Nokia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c
(there's a section that has been cut, talking about Finns can only talk to each other on the phone, hence the high cell phone use).
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2010, 10:41:12 AM »
The late Bishop John of ACROD was a convert from the Byzantine Catholic Church as well.

Offline Robert W

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2010, 10:58:45 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c
"The Finnish male is very prone to self pity" HAHAHA  ;D I love it.

Back to topic (-ish  ::)), if there are enough Orthodox people in Nicea to have a functioning see there then a more virile bishop should be appointed.

Offline Jake C

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2010, 12:23:30 PM »
Roman Catholics who are dissatisfied with their local parish (and most of their parishes are quite Cafeteria Catholic) rather tend to join the Tridentine Rite, Opus Dei, Neocatechumenal Way or even the Uniates.

I'm curious, could you tell me what exactly the "Neocatechumenal Way" is? I had a classmate in college who said she was a "Neocat". I'm curious as to what this group is.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2010, 01:05:42 PM »
Roman Catholics who are dissatisfied with their local parish (and most of their parishes are quite Cafeteria Catholic) rather tend to join the Tridentine Rite, Opus Dei, Neocatechumenal Way or even the Uniates.

I'm curious, could you tell me what exactly the "Neocatechumenal Way" is? I had a classmate in college who said she was a "Neocat". I'm curious as to what this group is.

You might just have a look at the Wikipedia article...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocatechumenal_Way

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2010, 04:37:36 PM »
Lutherans don't really have a structured liturgical service anyway so I guess that there isn't much of a "rite" so to speak for them to be attached too.

That's not quite true.  I grew up in a fairly conservative parish where the Liturgy was celebrated every other week in a modified form of the Rite of St. Gregory.  However, over time, more praise band music and praise worship crept in.  There are still many parishes (a dwindling minority) especially in the LCMS (Missouri Synod Lutherans) who still use the traditional Liturgy (from the LH of 1943 which itself is a reprint of the one from 1905).  I grant that there are few of them, but I think the time is ripe in the LCMS (especially following their assembly this year where it is very likely they will get rid of their progressive disaster of a president for the past 12 years) for Liturgical renewal using the same type of Liturgy the Germans brought over from Saxony in the 1860s which was being phased out by the unionists over there.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2010, 04:48:24 PM »
Lutherans don't really have a structured liturgical service anyway so I guess that there isn't much of a "rite" so to speak for them to be attached too.

I don't know about American Lutherans but at least for me Finnish Lutheran mass seems pretty much like Novus Ordo. Here's a video about pretty typical Finnish Lutheran mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/video/1002570


Offline Starlight

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Re: Convert hierarchs?
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2010, 11:20:34 PM »
Hieromartyr of our times, Bishop Paul de Ballester-Convallier, a former Roman Catholic: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Paul_%28de_Ballester-Convallier%29_of_Nazianzus

Archbishop Jonah of Kampala and all Uganda, Patriarchate of Alexandria

Metropolitan Ieronymos of Mwanza, Patriarchate of Alexandria

Archbishop Gabriel (de Vylder) of Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Churches in Western Europe - the Ecumenical Patriarchate, also former Roman Catholic

Bishop Daniel (Zelynsky) of UOC of USA, former Eastern Rite Catholic Deacon.

Archbishop Theodosious (Attalah Hanna) of Jerusalem Patriarchate, former Muslim.

For example, Bishop Athenagoras (Peckstadt) of Synope, Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Belgium, and Metropolitan Daniel (Nushiro) of Tokyo and all Japan were already born into Orthodox convert families.

Is Bishop Dimitrios (Couchell) of Xanthos, GOA, retired, also a convert?

There are also some Heirarchs in Ukraine, who were raised as Atheists.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 11:21:45 PM by Starlight »