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Myrrh23
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« on: December 25, 2008, 02:57:38 PM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2008, 02:22:07 PM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?

Could, if the lukewarmness comes from "I don't care."
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« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2008, 03:22:37 PM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?
Of what revelations do you speak?
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2008, 05:00:38 PM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?
Of what revelations do you speak?

I think she means the Book of Revelations, chapter 3, verse 16.
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2008, 05:54:54 PM »

Orthodox Christians shall be known by the love they have for one another, not by the hatred they have for others (see John 13:35).
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2008, 06:56:32 PM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?
What are the ramifications of believing that Islam is a "religion of peace"?
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2008, 08:52:31 PM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?
What are the ramifications of believing that Islam is a "religion of peace"?

I suppose...the same ramifications as believing that the Pharisees were holy men: being caught asleep when the Lord is near.
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« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2008, 09:45:46 PM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?
What are the ramifications of believing that Islam is a "religion of peace"?

I suppose...the same ramifications as believing that the Pharisees were holy men: being caught asleep when the Lord is near.
Huh  Where do we see that men were led astray by the belief that the Pharisees were holy men?  After all, did not Jesus say of the Pharisees, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you..." (Matthew 23:2-3)  I always thought the point of Christian faith was to follow Christ and unite ourselves to Him, not to judge the Pharisees (or Islam).
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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2008, 09:49:20 PM »

I think this is one of those situation in which we must follow Paul's words that: "he that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Cor. 2:15). We do not judge people regarding their salvation, but certainly we can look at Islam from historical and other perspectives and judge it's fruits. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt. 7:20)
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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2008, 09:57:45 PM »

I think this is one of those situation in which we must follow Paul's words that: "he that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Cor. 2:15). We do not judge people regarding their salvation, but certainly we can look at Islam from historical and other perspectives and judge it's fruits. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt. 7:20)
But is the perception that Islam is a "religion of peace" in and of itself tantamount to the lukewarmness spoken of in the Apocalypse of John, even if this misperception leads to no further consequences?
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2008, 10:03:40 PM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?
What are the ramifications of believing that Islam is a "religion of peace"?

I suppose...the same ramifications as believing that the Pharisees were holy men: being caught asleep when the Lord is near.
Huh  Where do we see that men were led astray by the belief that the Pharisees were holy men?  After all, did not Jesus say of the Pharisees, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you..." (Matthew 23:2-3)  I always thought the point of Christian faith was to follow Christ and unite ourselves to Him, not to judge the Pharisees (or Islam).

You mean, do as they say, not as they do? Huh
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All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2008, 10:06:54 PM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?
What are the ramifications of believing that Islam is a "religion of peace"?

I suppose...the same ramifications as believing that the Pharisees were holy men: being caught asleep when the Lord is near.
Huh  Where do we see that men were led astray by the belief that the Pharisees were holy men?  After all, did not Jesus say of the Pharisees, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you..." (Matthew 23:2-3)  I always thought the point of Christian faith was to follow Christ and unite ourselves to Him, not to judge the Pharisees (or Islam).

You mean, do as they say, not as they do? Huh
No, I mean do as they say without giving regard for what they do.  But what's the point of discussing this tangent on following the Pharisees, anyway?
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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2008, 10:09:47 PM »

Eh. No point on the Tangent, really. Just thought it might be a qualified example of what I was trying to reach...
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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2008, 10:16:21 PM »

Quote
But is the perception that Islam is a "religion of peace" in and of itself tantamount to the lukewarmness spoken of in the Apocalypse of John, even if this misperception leads to no further consequences?

I think it could be lukewarmness, depending on the motivation, and I admit that it would differ from individual to individual (I'm not trying to make a blanket statement). I guess the only ones who it would really effect as far as consequences are the ones who make policies, either in government or in some other way in an authority position.
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2008, 11:42:15 PM »

Quoting and paraphrasing from the OSB commentary on Revelations 3:15-16:

There were hot springs in Hierapolis.  The water from the hot springs would be lukewarm by the time the water arrived in Laodicea, 6 miles from Hierapolis.  The hot water would be contaminated with many minerals, impossible to drink and nauseating.  The Laodiceans were lukewarm in spiritual fervor and good works; their lack of commitment is revolting to the Lord, who would have them go one way or the other.

Based on the commentary, the passage has nothing to do with Islam because latter verses call on people to cooperate with God in order to conquer.
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2008, 11:53:16 PM »

Quoting and paraphrasing from the OSB commentary on Revelations 3:15-16:

There were hot springs in Hierapolis.  The water from the hot springs would be lukewarm by the time the water arrived in Laodicea, 6 miles from Hierapolis.  The hot water would be contaminated with many minerals, impossible to drink and nauseating.  The Laodiceans were lukewarm in spiritual fervor and good works; their lack of commitment is revolting to the Lord, who would have them go one way or the other.

Based on the commentary, the passage has nothing to do with Islam because latter verses call on people to cooperate with God in order to conquer.

Uh, those hot springs and what's left of Laodicea is now infested with Islam.
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« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2008, 01:05:29 AM »

Quoting and paraphrasing from the OSB commentary on Revelations 3:15-16:

There were hot springs in Hierapolis.  The water from the hot springs would be lukewarm by the time the water arrived in Laodicea, 6 miles from Hierapolis.  The hot water would be contaminated with many minerals, impossible to drink and nauseating.  The Laodiceans were lukewarm in spiritual fervor and good works; their lack of commitment is revolting to the Lord, who would have them go one way or the other.

Based on the commentary, the passage has nothing to do with Islam because latter verses call on people to cooperate with God in order to conquer.

Uh, those hot springs and what's left of Laodicea is now infested with Islam.
True.  So what's your point?
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« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2008, 01:51:27 AM »

Uh, those hot springs and what's left of Laodicea is now infested with Islam.

Lukewarmness refers to belief in God and does not imply self-delusion which is brought up by the OP.  One has to look at the verses (Revelations 3:17-22) following lukewarmness:

Quote
17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.  22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”


Rather than focusing on Islam, maybe all of us can focus on curing lukewarmness.   Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2008, 04:37:51 AM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?

Part of the problem with the question is which Islam are you referring to, as it is hardly monolithic.   
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« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2008, 10:51:04 AM »

^^Exactly. What Nektarios said. Islam (the word that literally means simply "Obedience") has no unified theology, no dogmatics, no clergy as such. A Muslim is one who believes that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is the Prophet of Allah. A Muslim is also called to pray and fast and give alms. Otherwise, there are hundreds or thousands of the most diversified versions of what it is to be a Muslim and what is this thing called Islam. A Muslim in Chechnya, for example, believes in spirits of his ancestrors and prays to them, which is something a Vahhabi ("Puritan") Muslim will most definitely condemn as Paganism. There is Muslim mysticism (Sufism), Muslim scholasticism, Muslim juridism, and what not. Muslims never had anything even remotedly close to our Ecumenical Councils - not because they did not have the time or the opportunity, but because they consider it principally wrong to create a body of doctrines and to separate orthodoxy from heresy. So, while it is definitely lukewarm and wrong to ignore or approve militant Islamists who preach literal Jihad and justify killing "infidels," it would be, IMHO, completely wrong to extrapolate a negative attitude to the whole Islam.
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« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2008, 11:45:11 AM »

A Muslim in Chechnya, for example, believes in spirits of his ancestrors and prays to them,

LOL, I come from a Muslim family, and I didn't know that. Tongue
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« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2008, 12:13:34 PM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?
Of what revelations do you speak?

I think she means the Book of Revelations, chapter 3, verse 16.
There's no such book in Christianity.
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« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2008, 12:53:57 PM »

There's no such book in Christianity.

Yes we get it Mr.Y its called Revelation Cheesy
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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2008, 01:02:54 PM »

A Muslim in Chechnya, for example, believes in spirits of his ancestrors and prays to them,

LOL, I come from a Muslim family, and I didn't know that. Tongue

I learned about it when I was reading journals of some Chechen rebel fighters. During the active phase of the war for independence from Russia, somewhere between 1993-98, a number of Saudi mujahadeen fought together with them against the Russian army. But there was a lot of arguments and little understanding between these Saudi young men and the Ichkerians (or "Chechens," although they prefer to be called Ichkerians, because the word "Chechen" is actually a demeaning nickname like "Yankee" or something). Both were very much used to the idea that it is them who are "real" Muslims; but in actuality, there were some huge differences between the Saudi (=Vahhabi) version of Islam and the Ichkerian version of Islam.
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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2008, 01:35:16 PM »

Another thing that stunned me recently about Islam is that there is no "grassroot" animosity between Sunni and Shi'a Muslims at least in some parts of the Muslim world. As I have written on this forum a while ago, Turkmen Muslims (Sunni) have a saying, "he is a real Jigite (master horserider), because he rides his horse like a real Shi'ite!" So, to be "like a real Shi'ite" is, in the mind of a Sunni Muslim, a compliment in some respect. In Iraq, the animosity is against Persians, not "infidel" Shi'ites; within Arab Iraquis, the animosity is more between various clans (of which some happen to be Sunni and other Shi'a), than between "all" Sunni and "all" Shi'a. The US propaganda seems to have it quite wrong (deliberately or not, I do not know).
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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2008, 05:25:15 PM »

There's no such book in Christianity.

Yes we get it Mr.Y its called Revelation Cheesy
Or the Apocalypse of St. John
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« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2008, 07:59:02 PM »

There's no such book in Christianity.

Yes we get it Mr.Y its called Revelation Cheesy
Yes, because it is not multiple revelations of multiple future events, but rather one Revelation of one Jesus Christ. It is very important that we refer to the book in the singular.
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« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2008, 11:42:43 PM »

Yes, because it is not multiple revelations of multiple future events, but rather one Revelation of one Jesus Christ. It is very important that we refer to the book in the singular.

Thanks Dad.  Hey, I was at your church today.  Where you there?
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« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2008, 11:46:21 PM »

Yes, because it is not multiple revelations of multiple future events, but rather one Revelation of one Jesus Christ. It is very important that we refer to the book in the singular.

Thanks Dad.  Hey, I was at your church today.  Where you there?
No, we were still on the road home from my wife's parents' house.
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« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2008, 11:50:47 PM »

Whenever I think of lukewarmness, I think of apathy.  Part of apathy is also pluralism, the idea that all religions lead to the same conclusion, god, or morals, that it doesn't matter.  But even worse is apathy in general, the "I don't care" mentality.  It's one step away to laziness and death of the soul.

If one believes Islam is a religion of peace, and the motivation is that it's okay to be a Muslim (speaking as a Christian), then that's lukewarmness.  If the motivation however is that it's STILL not okay to be a Muslim, then I don't see that as lukewarmness; naivety but not apathy.

God bless.
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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2008, 12:44:06 AM »

I'm not sure if this should be placed here or in Politics, but here goes!

Revelations speaks of the Lord's reaction to lukewarmness. Could Christians believing that Islam is a "religion of peace" be a part of the lukewarmness, since lukewarmness could also imply self-delusion?

Non-awareness of self doesn't seem to be part of any question of "lukewarmness."

Lukewarm is a state where the liquid/object/person is neither hot nor cold; in the case of a person (who reasonably has some level of control over their environment or choice of environment), one would neither be hot nor cold only when one (a) chooses not to actively heat or cool oneself (either through will or indecision), or (b) affects their environment or choice of environment to avoid hot and cold.  In this way, lukewarmness is either a product of choice or of indecision.

So, too, the Lord's condemnation seems to fall on those who either choose to do neither good nor evil, or who cannot decide to do either.
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2008, 12:29:18 PM »


If one believes Islam is a religion of peace, and the motivation is that it's okay to be a Muslim (speaking as a Christian), then that's lukewarmness. 


I wouldn't necessarily equate "Islam is a religion of peace" with "Islam is salvifically equivalent to Christianity".
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Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Tags: Apocalypse of John Islam 
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