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Author Topic: The Nasraya Mshikhani Church of Jerusalem  (Read 5345 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 20, 2006, 02:57:46 AM »

By accident, I found this group referring to itself as the Patriarchate of Jerusalem on Yahoo:
Quote
Welcome to the Official Website of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem - the worldwide Headquarters of the Nasraya Mshikhani Church of Yerushalayim and its various jurisdictions abroad. This Church is Eastern in origin and is an autocephalous, self-ruling Hierarchy. The Jurisdiction of this particular Church is referred to as "Nasraya Mshikhani" (Nazaraean Followers of Messiah).
http://www.churchofjerusalem.org/

Does anyone know who they are, and whether they are EO, OO or Nestorian?

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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2006, 03:02:50 AM »

By accident, I found this group referring to itself as the Patriarchate of Jerusalem on Yahoo:
Does anyone know who they are, and whether they are EO, OO or Nestorian?

If you read their own website which you have just posted, it says:
"The Nasraya Mshikhani Church of Yerushalyim is independent and is not in communion with any denomination."
 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2006, 03:08:19 AM »

Their website also claims to be Nestorian in Christology, and connects itself with St. Thomas as its purported founder. On Wikipedia, I was only able to find this brief explanation of who they are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_East_%26_Abroad

With so many false churches today claiming to be "ancient," "apostolic," "Orthodox," or "catholic," it's important to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Peace.
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2006, 03:11:42 AM »

"The Nasraya Mshikhani Church of Yerushalyim is independent and is not in communion with any denomination."

Perhaps they mean "autocephalous". Cheesy
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2006, 03:13:35 AM »

Ozgeorge, please do not attack the Indian Orthodox Church based on your apparent dislike of me. That would be rather low.

Peace.
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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2006, 03:38:33 AM »

"To the world, Nestorianism is dead... The time is now for Nestorianism to rise from its slumber: to grow person by person, village by village the world over. I urge all Nestorians, everywhere in every country to unite under the banner of the one and only Nestorian Church, under the righteous authority of the only True Nestorian Patriarchate, under the authority of His Holiness, +Mar Isagelos Michai... Nestorianism will not be killed by Evil Imperial Forces, Mongol Hordes, Communist regimes, predators that lie about peaceful submission to God or Deviant pseudo-religious entities that misrepresent the Faith of our Messiah... We know the truth of Christianity. We know the importance of keeping the Way of Messiah. We know that is the essence of Nestorianism..."

Odd that god would let almost the entire world's population, including 99.99% of Christians, fall into heresy, and stay there for 1,600 years.
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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2006, 03:51:56 AM »

What is Nestorianism anyway? Some claim that it teaches a Christ in two persons, while others say it merely refuses to recognize the Virgin Mary as Mother of God. Both doctrines are incorrect, but one is much worse than the other.

Peace.
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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2006, 04:00:26 AM »

What is Nestorianism anyway? Some claim that it teaches a Christ in two persons, while others say it merely refuses to recognize the Virgin Mary as Mother of God.

It's the same thing. Nestorios the Patriarch of Constantinople taught that The Virgin Mary was not "Theotokos" (Godbearer) but only "Christotokos" (Christ bearer) because the Person she gave Birth to was only the Human Christ, not the Divine. The only way this would be possible was if Christ were two persons, one Human and one Divine.
The idiots of the Nasraya Mshikhani Church of Yerushalayim have made the same mistake every western church makes in that they believe the Chaldean Assyrian Church of the East which they claim to be descended from is "Nestorian", when in fact, it is not.

Ozgeorge, please do not attack the Indian Orthodox Church based on your apparent dislike of me. That would be rather low.
I don't dislike you Matthew, I actually like you.
The point is, anyone can claim "autocephaly", but it doesn't make it so. That's not how the Church operates.
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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2006, 04:05:24 AM »

It's the same thing. Nestorius the Patriarch of Constantinople taught that The Virgin Mary was not "Theotokos" (Godbearer) but only "Christotokos" (Christ bearer) because the Person she gave Birth to was only the Human Christ, not the Divine.

While Protestants refuse to acknowledge the Virgin Mary as Mother of God, they do believe that she gave birth to the divinity of Jesus. I know this is inconsistent, but it seems to be what Nestorius believed also. The accusation that he taught of two distinct persons seems to be a strawman or misunderstanding.

I don't dislike you Matthew, I actually like you.

You could have fooled me.ÂÂ  Cool

Shlomo.
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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2006, 04:14:50 AM »

While Protestants refuse to acknowledge the Virgin Mary as Mother of God,
Not all Protestants. Anglicans call her "Mother of God" (see http://www.anglicancommunion.org/acns/articles/39/75/acns3978a.cfm) as do Lutherans. It is mainly the Evangelicals whose theology is so immature that they refuse the Virgin this title, not realising the Christological implications.
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2006, 04:17:33 AM »

It is mainly the Evangelicals whose theology is so immature that they refuse the Virgin this title, not realising the Christological implications.

Even so, no one would refer to them as Nestorian heretics.
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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2006, 04:22:41 AM »

From Wikipedia's talk page, one can find that they are most likely a Judaizing modern movement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Church_of_the_East_%26_Abroad

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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2006, 04:32:09 AM »

Even so, no one would refer to them as Nestorian heretics.

Well, some of them are Nestorians. For example, popular evangelist Jimmy Swaggart denies the Eternal Sonship of Christ and taught that Christ was a man adopted by God as His Son at some point in history. He has since changed his tune.
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2006, 04:44:46 AM »

It is sorrowful the amount of recent, heretical groups claiming to be "Orthodox" or "Catholic."
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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2006, 05:08:18 AM »

It is sorrowful the amount of recent, heretical groups claiming to be "Orthodox" or "Catholic."

It is a sad fact that internet presence is assumed to be a sign of reality. A nice webpage with a logo and a link in Wiki and suddenly it is "credible". Thew internet can present many misleading "signs and wonders": “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand." (Matthew 24:23-25)
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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2006, 07:43:13 AM »

Even so, no one would refer to them as Nestorian heretics.

Maybe they should be referred to as such; might wake 'em up some.  Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2006, 09:58:35 AM »

Mathew,

 The Indian Church is not autocephalous, because it just got up one fine morning and declared itself so.  There was  a formal grant of self governance. The dispute arises from a disputed  excommunication that followed a canonical elevation of a Catholicate at kottayam ie of Mor Augen . EO representatives from Russia and the Ecumenical Patriarchate were present. This consecration was done by HH Mor Igantius Yakoob III of Antioch.
 Considering the precense of Byzantines at the ceremony, the Church did not publicly read out the anathemas against Pope Leo of Rome.
 Now as per general canons of the church which are common to both EO and OO traditions, a due process has to be followed for excommunication. That this process has not been followed is the contention of the faction of which you are a member.

The matter went to the Courts and the Supreme Court of India ruled in favour of your faction. For reasons which are extremely complicated, both sides IMO have not been large hearted enough to recieve the other into communion .
I can understand your confusion, the primary source you relied on is of a doubtful nature.

EP Bartholomios on his state visit to Kerala was a guest of our Catholicos and stayed at the Catholicate palace.

All of us are praying that God restore union soon. George please understand that this dispute in the body of Christ is a one of deep sorrow for those living it.

If you really want to find out more, I am sure you are capable of doing that. So please avoid any snide remarks. The Church is dilgent in following the Canons, we are not wannabe vagantes. Having kept the faith recieved from the Apostle St Thomas through great troubles, Indian Christianity surely deserves a little more respect.

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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2006, 10:21:26 AM »

George please understand that this dispute in the body of Christ is a one of deep sorrow for those living it.

I will, as long as you understand that I feel it my duty to oppose any faction Matthew sides with.  Cheesy
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2006, 01:05:49 PM »

There was a long discussion on this church on this site a few months ago. I am not sure if the search feature works again yet, but it was on the Nasrani Church of the East.

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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2006, 01:13:29 PM »

The search engine was going slowly, and then a CPU error came up, but it eventually found the thread that Anastasios was talking about.
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2006, 01:32:30 AM »

If you really want to find out more, I am sure you are capable of doing that. So please avoid any snide remarks. The Church is dilgent in following the Canons, we are not wannabe vagantes. Having kept the faith recieved from the Apostle St Thomas through great troubles, Indian Christianity surely deserves a little more respect.

The Nasraya Mshikhani Church of Jerusalem is one of several modern movements claiming to have originated with St. Thomas. I mean no disrespect to the Malankara Church, which has obviously existed from the beginning of the faith.

Peace.
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2006, 08:00:44 PM »

I find it interesting that this supposed church is only mentioned on their own sites and on wikipedia which anyone can post too. All their links link back to themselves, and the supposed church is located in a trailer in Camden, TN. I have done much research into their existence and it appears to be a false church that preys upon the weak and lost to follow their beliefs (of course those who are strong in their Christian faith would not follow such antics anyway). As we all know the internet is full of useful information but is also the world best authority on false teachings!!! Mar David has received no formal teaching other than the internet but now claims to run a seminary, and lead a worldwide church........think about this for yourself
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2008, 11:04:02 AM »

Shalom,

I have read of the postings on the Church/Assembly of Jerusalem and would like to clarify several things.

What you consider to be an imaginary and false church is NOT true. The Church/Assembly of Jerusalem has many congregations in China, Tibet, India, Myanmar and Thailand. Some are in Latin America, Turkey and Israel. She has existed for two thousand years, despite the efforts of satan to destroy and eliminate Her. Her Faith was and is Orthodox Essene Judaism. The Assembly of Jerusalem is NOT a Christian body and is NOT a modern Judaizer movement. She has kept and preserved the Faith of the First Century Jerusalem Assembly under the Leadership of Ya'aqub haTzaddik (St James the Righteous) the brother of Messiah and the descendants of the Families of Miryam and Yosef (Mary and Joseph). The government of the Assembly is composed of three parts - the Tzaddik (Patriarch, a bloodline from Yosef and Miryam), the Apostolic Sanhedrin (70 Torah sages) and the Archangel Michael.

The old label Nasrani Church of the East has been discarded because it does not fully express the original identity of this body.

The Assembly of Jerusalem has Her own Scriptures, preserved by Essene scribes, which do not follow either the Rabbinic Jewish (Old Testament) canon or the gentile church fathers' (New Testament) canon. Long before there was any "ecumenical council" the Sanhedrin of the Assembly of Jerusalem had reviewed and selected writings to be included in Her canon.


These are few of the information about the Assembly/Church of Jerusalem. Further information may be sought from these websites :

www.alhym.org

www.yeshuans.org


link removed

www.bookofpresence.org


The Assembly of Jerusalem is real, not a cyberspace community. You can visit the congregations in Asia, but there are congregations living in under persecution and pressure, so information and pictures of them are not provided. You may contact the Mishqana for further information about the possibility of making a visit.

While we appreciate the information, I only ask that you refrain from posting any more open links to other discussion fora (which is in violation of our site policy).  Thank you.  The only link that was in violation I have removed.  If you have any questions, please PM me. - Cleveland, Global Moderator
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« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2008, 11:50:49 AM »

The Essenes entered into a covenant with Alhym (God) on 30th September 2007.

I've seen this before ...
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« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2008, 11:53:06 AM »


Shalom,

SolEX01, it seems that you want to associate the Assembly of Jerusalem with the Share International, which is a cult group promoting a FALSE Messiah.

The Assembly of Jerusalem, when interacting with Buddhists about Maitreya, always proclaim that the Maitreya is Messiah Yeshua, Son of David, The Son of God. In Essene Orthodox theology "Maitreya"
has a very specific meaning : Maitar-Ya, the Word of YAHWEH, Who is Yeshua.

The Assembly of Jerusalem believes and proclaims that Messiah Yeshua will come soon !

The Assembly of Jerusalem has NO connection whatsoever to any religious groups outside of her walls.


What you quoted :

The Essenes entered into a covenant with Alhym (God) on 30th September 2007.

is something that truly happened, something Jewish and not New-Age. Christians, including Orthodox, rarely speak in terms of Covenants, and they don't know the true nature of what they call "New Covenant". So, they don't connect with this matter of Covenants with the God of Israel. And neither the New Agers.

Non-Jewish beliefs either talk about religion or spirituality, but not Covenants. Covenants are very Objective and very Real.


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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2008, 02:33:10 AM »

I offer an observation here similar to the one I offered on a prior occasion - Not again!

For another thread on the topic, somewhat earlier than the one to which someone linked above (back in 2006, when this thread was begun) I suggest this one.  In an effort to save hopping back and forth between the two, I'm going to post here my contribution to that particular thread, in which I described/discussed the Nasrani Patriarchate of Jerusalem (its name at the time, as I best recollect) at some length. 

Some of what appears below will be a bit out-dated by now - or will no longer appear, given the group's ongoing history of editing and updating, while effectively deleting any and all prior references to what went before - particularly that which might be of an embarressing nature.  Their material is, itself, so voluminous and so tedious to wade through that I have no desire to plunge into its newest editions.

Quote from: Irish Melkite
The Nasrani Patriarchate of Jerusalem has been around for about 100 years, in one embodiment or another, having relocated its principal see and undergone name changes from time to time. If one has the patience to search out its constituent and subsidiary "jurisdictions", you will see a "diversity" of belief systems. I'll try and come back to that.

Their website, and most of the other websites associated with them, are very professionally done and have become ever more sophisticated. For someone like me, who does further searches based on names, titles, etc., that appear on a site, a common time-saving practice (and one that lessens the likelihood of transcription errors) is to copy text and paste it into the search engine. These folks have copy-protected their sites, so that one cannot copy and paste from them - something most frequently encountered on proprietary sites; nothing wrong with doing it, but it makes it difficult (time consuming) to further research them. Not that one would find much, since they are referenced nowhere on the web except on their own and related sites.

The increased sophistication extends also to the content of their websites; in an earlier edition, there was more biographical info on HH Catholicos Patriarch Mar Isagelos Michai (Yaza). Now, it reads

Quote
After being consecrated on April 14, 1991 as the Catholicos Patriarch of the Nasrani Patriarchate of Jerusalem, by Catholicos +Mar Thomas Dalin (III) and co-consecrators, His Holiness ordered an interim be put into place in order to undergo full seminary training under leading bishops and other educators within the Patriarchate. During the next several years the Nasrani Church of the East Abroad was able to go through much needed radical reforms and restructuring.

As you may deduce from the opening sentence, HH appears to not yet have been a presbyter when consecrated as Catholicos Patriarch. As I recollect, this and his then-age in 1991 (26) was much more apparent in the earlier version of his bio. Admittedly, elevation to such an office at a young age is not unheard of - Mar Shimun XXIII of blessed memory, Catholicos & Patriarch of the Ancient Church of the East, was only 12 when elected to office (it was hereditary in his family) and was advanced through the various orders of the presbyterate and episcopacy to permit his consecration in 1920. However, these days it is more likely to raise eyebrows and reduce credibility.

This Church is well beyond the realm of what are sometimes termed Non-canonical Churches or Churches of Irregular Status, styling that is ordinarily applied on the basis of a Church neither being recognized as autocephalous or autonomous by competent Orthodox authority nor under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch. The common factor to Churches ordinarily described as non-canonical is that they are essentially mainstream denominations (although they span a continuum that runs the gamut from Old Believers through Old Calendarists to ROCOR and Macedonian Orthodox) and they espouse defined beliefs that are consistent with historical Orthodoxy, despite occasional differences in interpretation. These folks don't meet that description in my opinion.

They have neither any affiliation with or relationship to any of the Oriental Orthodox Churches nor to the Ancient (Assyrian) Church of the East, the Catholicosate of the East (Malankara Orthodox Church), or the Chaldean Catholic Church, despite claims of apostolic succession from the Assyrians. The absence of any connection between it and those Churches is readily verifiable by checking their websites.

It is a vagante church, albeit considerably more elaborate than most such. While vagante bishops were historically a Catholic-oriented phenomenon, sometime in the late 1800s and early 1900s, the East and the Orient beckoned and there was a rush, led by folks like Father (later "Bishop", then "Patriarch") Joseph Renee Vilatte, to seek episcopal orders through disaffected actual hierarchs (and a few self-styled hierarchs) from those traditions. This, combined with some renegade Easterners on these shores, notably Abdullah Aftimios Ofiesh (of the Syrian Orthodox) and Antoine Joseph Aneed (of the Melkite Catholics), assured that the East could and would have its own vagante episcopi.

Whether it was the Eastern/Oriental mystery, mysticism, ceremony, titles, vesture, or what, that brought about this interest, we'll never know. On the other side, I suspect that actually being given recognition as important by someone and the opportunity to export their Churches to the West played parts in the willingness of some consecrating hierarchs to lay hands on those who went East seeking episcopal ordination.

The site references a Portuguese-Indian Rite. In truth, the influence of the Latin Catholic Portuguese missioners on the various Indian Rites (Malabarese and Malankarese), which invariably resulted in the introduction of latinizations, were hostilely received and I know of no instance in which it was undertaken to create a Rite that would perpetuate these in a named liturgical form. They also describe relocation to Portugal and the creation of the Iberian Orthodox Church, at which point they make reference to continuing correspondence with Mar Simon XXIII, whose legitimate successor and the current Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church is Mar Dinkus IV. This is a tactic often encountered among vagante groups - suggesting a relationship between themselves and mainstream canonical Churches. Not infrequently, this concept is bolstered by actually initiating correspondence with valid hierarchs, whose polite responses are then bandied about as signs of tacit recognition.

Their claimed apostolic succession is a bit more arcane than many of the vagante, but one of their subsidiary sites used to reference Vilatte as a principal consecrator (not particularly surprising as it has been said that he never met a man he didn't ordain). According to the page (now revised and no longer containing detailed info on their lines), Mar Dalin III, a prior Patriarch-Catolicos was elevated to the episcopacy on 9/25/1921 by Vilatte; yet, most sources indicate that Vilatte retired in 1920 and performed only a single episcopal function after that date, on 9/21/1921, when he ordained (later Archbishop) Wallace David de Ortega Maxey (another prominent figure on the stage of American "independent" Catholicity and Orthodoxy).

Whether the purported episcopal orders accorded to Vilatte would or would not pass muster in Orthodox or Catholic circles is a matter of ongoing discussion and has been for a century, with multiple differing opinions espoused. Thus, at least at some level, the potential exists for these folks to have some measure of apostolic succession - depends on who is voting and their criteria for same, as we've discussed here previously.

Like the Church of Antioch-Malabar Rite (which we also discussed here not long ago, if I remember correctly), this entity, which used to call itself the Patriarchate of Jerusalem has essentially tried to wrap itself in a traditions that aren't its own, whether because those who adhere to it actually believe that they are fulfilling a genuine spiritual purpose or to mislead folks, we'll likely never know. None of the entities with which they are in communion are mainstream Catholic or Orthodox Churches. On one of their sites, there are (or used to be, I couldn't find it tonight on a quick scan of the site) photos of the Pope, the Patriarchs of both the Ancient Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church, as well as Catholicos-Patriarch Michai, clearly suggesting ties that aren't there. On the pages listing "their churches" in various nations, there are several countries for which the listings are of parishes of the Assyrian Church. These suggestions, of ties that aren't there, I take as a bad sign with regard to their intentions.

I mentioned its "diversity" of belief systems. They have a very "western" looking Oblate order that purportedly follows the "Benedictine-Franciscan" tradition (a mix that I haven't encountered previously) and which is focused on devotion to the Infant of Prague. Lists of their US affiliated churches include various ministries that have a decided evangelical bible air to them, an "Independent Anglican" congregation, and others, including several healing and holistic health ministries, last time I checked. The Patriarch-Catholicos suggests that all throw off the chains of "denominationalism."

All in all, its identifiable history is about a century old. It's headquartered in Tennessee and claims to have jurisdictions or a presence in a dozen nations, principally in North and South America, the Indian sub-continent, Southeast Asia, and Africa. There are a remarkable number of folks bearing patriarchal titles within this body - I suspect more than all the EO/OO/EC/OC Churches combined. There are a Thomasine Historical Society and a Peshitta site associated with them, and there is a regular potpuorri of subsidiary websites. A list of the variety of names under which it functions is on its info services page.

They have hundreds of pages of webspace and it can be daunting to work one's way through. If there's anything more specific that you'd like to know, ask and I'll answer if I can or point you to a page.

I didn't relink insert some of the links that were in the original version of the above message, because they now all seem to redirect to a single page titled Assembly of Jerusalem.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2008, 05:43:26 AM »


Shalom,

the Assembly of Jerusalem has tried many ways and opening many avenues to reach for the Western christians and slowly help them to come to the true understanding of the Essene Orthodox faith.

the Assembly of Jerusalem is very aware that the Western churches have held to anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism for more than a millenia so they need time and slowly progress to the proper understanding and practice.

Even the Messianic Jews from the West experience difficulties in embracing this Faith, because Essene Orthodox Judaism is not the mainstream anti-Yeshua Judaism.






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« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2008, 05:50:45 AM »


This is especially for Irish Melkite :  [bgcolor=#d70000]Q and A concerning Apostolic Succession[/bgcolor]


Shalom!


I met The Assembly of Jerusalem's site since 2006, and I am trying to understand about the history of your Church.

According to Yeshuans' site, there is the following Apostolic Succession:
"1º) 33 Mar Keifa, Mar Ya'aqub, and Mar Thoma; 2º) 33 Bar Tulmay; 3º) 33 - 45 Mar Addai; 4º) 45 - 81 Agai; 5º) 48 - 81 Mari; 6º) 90 - 107 Abris (relative of the Virgin Marta Miriam); 7º) 130 - 152 Oraham I (Believers were expelled from Jerusalem in 135 C.E.); 8º) 172 - 190 Yacob I (relative of Yosip the Carpenter); 9º) 191 - 203 Ebid M'shikha; 10º) 203 - 227 Yusef I; 11º) 223 - 225 Yusef II; 12º) 225 - 268 Thoma Yusef; 13º) 268 - 281 Yosip Petros (Yosip I), 14º) 281 - 312 Yosip II; 15º) 312 - 352 Yosip III…"

I am reading "The Church History of Eusebius", and there have the following Apostolic Succession of Bishops of Jerusalem:
"After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the Apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James.
They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph". Book II, Chapter VI, vers.1 and 2

Ahead, in Book 6, there is this line of succession in The Church of Jerusalem:
"They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph; the second, Symeon; the third, Justus; the fourth, Zacchæus; the fifth, Tobias; the sixth, Benjamin; the seventh, John; the eighth, Matthias; the ninth, Philip; the tenth, Seneca; the eleventh, Justus; the twelfth, Levi; the thirteenth, Ephres; the fourteenth, Joseph; and finally, the fifteenth, Judas.
These are the bishops of Jerusalem that lived between the age of the apostles and the time referred to, all of them belonging to the circumcision". Book IV, Chapter V, vers. 3 to 4.

According Eusebius, there was a succession between the relatives of the Holy Family, and that matchs with your history, but comparing the succession related by Eusebius, and your succession, we see diferent people on the "Chair of Saint James".

Please, could you explain me that?



Shalom ,

Regarding Eusebius and his religious history. Remember, that not all histories are entirely accurate or objective.

2 major events occurred in the Church in the era of Eusebius: with the sacking of Jerusalem in 135ad and with the excommunication of the western church 318ad.

Remember that the patriarchate was in exile in Mesopotamia from 135ad, onwards and after 318ad all contact between churches loyal the Jerusalem and churches loyal to Rome was been pretty much dead in the water.

A religious historian in 2nd centrury Caesarea, just because he was in close proximity to Jerusalem, at that time, would not have meant he was appraised of who was in charge of the actual, historic Church of Jerusalem or sitting on the Apostolic Throne with any degree of accuracy.

At the time of Aelia Capitolina, Emperor Hadrian, Set up a pagan altar in the Temple, he would not allow the Jewish people into Jerusalem not even the Jewish Followers of Messiah. Not a single Caesarean bishop said a word of defense or support for the original families Miryam and Yosip.

Also, there was false patriarchate with a gentile bishop was set up in Jerursalem under Markos the First, i believe.It would not be out of the realm of possibility to mix elements of Markos (the false patriarchs) line, with parts of the original line of St. James.

So there are going to be stark differences in the apostolic lines of the Essene Patriarchate and the false patriarchate

For his part, Eusebius, did not check with Essene historians to either confirm or deny his history. Millenia later, people read and believe its written in rock. And instead of thinking "Hey, Eusebius got some of his information wrong about the Church of Jerusalem" the end result is people ask "Why doesnt your history line up with Eusebius?"

That is not meant to criticize Eusebius but to say you can only report the information you have available, if you don't know it, then how can you report it?

The sad thing is, you report a half truth long enough, it becomes someone else's whole truth many centuries later.

On the matter of Markos the First, the only information I have is that he was a gentile bishop who was pretender to the apostolic throne of St. James placed their by Rome, and that a lineage of patriarchs out of this false line developed over time but I don't have any other knowledge about him other than for the Essenes, we tell people that if there is an apostolic lineage claiming to be for the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and they happen to see the name of Markos the first within it, then they know this is the false patriarchate and not the actual historic line of St. James and should summarily disregard it.


May God bless you.



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« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2008, 02:25:14 AM »

From http://www.yeshuans.org/our-beliefs.php

Quote
We believe that Yeshua (Christ) is the Son of God and that His demonstration while here on earth is a perfect example for all to follow. We believe that Yeshua was crucified and was resurrected on the third day.

We believe that the Blood of Yeshua on the Cross is redeeming and is a manifestation of God's great love for His creation and that it can lead one to life free of sin. We additionally believe that Yeshua, as the one and only Son of God came to His own Israelite people and reached out to people of various cultures throughout history to deliver His message of love and redemption. As the Son, Yeshua is referred to as the Second Aspect of the One Godhead. The Apostles, disciples and family members of Messiah called Him by His Aramaic name because that was their language, thus His historically accurate Name is "Yeshua" (pronounced: "ye-shoo-ah"), although some religious organizations refer to Him as "Jesus", which is not the historically accurate Name of our Lord.

From http://www.yeshuans.org/faq.php

Quote
4. I am shocked that you are telling people that when they praise and worship Jesus that they are worshiping a false god. We believe we are worshiping Jesus Christ who is our Messiah, who we love and He loves us. We are not worshiping some cultic god but Jesus who died on the cross for our sins.

A. Not only does the Assembly of Jerusalem prove from its own Scriptures that the man called "Jesus" is not Almighty God, but historical facts that were not written by the Essenes prove this as well. For a detailed explanation as to why "Jesus" is not God, read this article.

Are you telling me that the man born of the holy Virgin Mary is not God, or that there's no such person as a "Jesus" but a "Yeshuah" (in which case, don't you think it's absurd to fight over terminology?)?
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« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2008, 04:34:18 AM »

http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/aramaic_language.html

HI,

To add facts. Please see above posted site for the Language history of Aramaic. If you watched the Mel Gibson Movie, "The Passion" that was entirely spoken in Aramaic that is old languages of Hebrew and Arabic plus others (Semitic). Further, I did not have to read the subtitle in English because the language is close to Modern Day Arabic so I understood most of the words. Therefore "Yeshua" is still used name for our Son of God by Aramaic speaking people such as the Assyrians is one example. As in the Name of God, for all races and people have their own language and "Jesus" is for the English speaking people. As for Arabic we say such as "Yashua El Masseih" or Yasou El Masseih.

Here, we are reading the original writing, language of our lord. However, to claim "Jesus" is not Yeshua is untrue. It is all semantics. We are all speaking of one True Son of God however in different languages. Why the confusion? I wish to understand more. I am unclear of your false God ("Jesus") reference myself.

As an Arab and speaking in Arabic and English I say for example either "God" or "Allah" or I say "Jesus" or "Yasou El Masseih" but I reference the same One True God and same for the Assyrians as an example who still speak Aramaic til this day so they still say "Yeshua."

Thank you for your time.

In Christ,
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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2009, 06:14:14 PM »


This is especially for Irish Melkite :  [bgcolor=#d70000]Q and A concerning Apostolic Succession[/bgcolor]

Thanks, but as a long-time student and scholar of apostolic succession and both the vagante and "independent" worlds, I'm seeing nothing here that would cause me to rethink my position. In fact, I find the revisionism in blatantly purging, replacing, and now disavowing the lines that used to be cited on the church's website to just further fortify all my impressions of the entity - as I spelled them out above.

Many years,

Neil
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