Author Topic: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve  (Read 2507 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« on: December 21, 2008, 11:15:17 PM »
For all you Liturgy and rubrics gurus out there:  Can Great Vespers be celebrated on Nativity Eve independently?   I've seen that after the reading of the Gospel at Great Vespers, the rubrics call to immediately begin the (Vesperal) Liturgy of St. Basil the Great.  Or does this only happen when the Feast of the Nativity falls on a Sunday? 

Thanks.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2008, 11:25:38 PM »
No, this always occurs on Christmas Eve. Whenever a Vesperal Liturgy is called for, it always replaces the ordinary Vespers. There are a couple of other times each year when we do St. Basil's Vesperal Liturgy; they escape me at the moment, but I always remember them when they're coming up soon.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2008, 11:42:59 PM »
No, this always occurs on Christmas Eve. Whenever a Vesperal Liturgy is called for, it always replaces the ordinary Vespers. There are a couple of other times each year when we do St. Basil's Vesperal Liturgy; they escape me at the moment, but I always remember them when they're coming up soon.

Great and Holy/Maundy Thursday and Great and Holy Saturday.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2008, 11:51:10 PM »
The reason I ask is because our parish never does Vespers with the Liturgy of St. Basil.  We always do Orthros followed by the Liturgy on the evening of December 24 (it's not even close to midnight) and I hate that we always relegate Vespers to the background.  I wanted to do it; if only for myself.  I just wanted to know what the rubrics would be if it was not to be part of the Liturgy.  Thanks.
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 12:03:21 AM »
The reason I ask is because our parish never does Vespers with the Liturgy of St. Basil. 
A parish of the DOWMA not doing the full cycle of services?? I thought such things never happen.
Joseph

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 12:32:01 AM »

A parish of the DOWMA not doing the full cycle of services?? I thought such things never happen.

You're joking, right?
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 09:52:59 AM »
Great vespers actually has a service written, not to be used in conjuction with St Basil's Liturgy on December 24, it is used in parishes that  have no priest and are doing a readers vesperal service. ROCOR has published it for use in its smaller missions, I have seen it.

Thomas

P.S. His grace Bishop Basil of  Witchita and DOWMA has  "suggested" strongly to his clergy to serve the daily services, however many older, long established parishes continue to support the looser standards that were earlier used as the standard in the region and not yet made the change to the recommended cycle of daily services.---T

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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 10:45:06 AM »
No, this always occurs on Christmas Eve. Whenever a Vesperal Liturgy is called for, it always replaces the ordinary Vespers. There are a couple of other times each year when we do St. Basil's Vesperal Liturgy; they escape me at the moment, but I always remember them when they're coming up soon.

Great and Holy/Maundy Thursday and Great and Holy Saturday.
Yes, thank you.
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2008, 11:38:40 AM »

A parish of the DOWMA not doing the full cycle of services?? I thought such things never happen.

You're joking, right?
Just a little tongue in cheek.
Joseph

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2008, 11:41:46 AM »
P.S. His grace Bishop Basil of  Witchita and DOWMA has  "suggested" strongly to his clergy to serve the daily services, however many older, long established parishes continue to support the looser standards that were earlier used as the standard in the region and not yet made the change to the recommended cycle of daily services.---T

I have a feeling that if we tried to do this, there would be a rebellion from the older ethnic members of our congregation.
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Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2008, 01:03:31 PM »
For all you Liturgy and rubrics gurus out there:  Can Great Vespers be celebrated on Nativity Eve independently?   I've seen that after the reading of the Gospel at Great Vespers, the rubrics call to immediately begin the (Vesperal) Liturgy of St. Basil the Great.  Or does this only happen when the Feast of the Nativity falls on a Sunday?  

Great Vespers for Christmas is technically only to be done without St. Basil's Liturgy when Christmas falls on a Sunday or Monday.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2008, 01:13:36 PM »
^Cleveland, that's what I thought.  So, if that were the case (and I know it's not here), after the hymn "O Gladsome Light", what do we use for the Aposticha and its Doxasticon? 
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2008, 01:52:40 PM »
^Cleveland, that's what I thought.  So, if that were the case (and I know it's not here), after the hymn "O Gladsome Light", what do we use for the Aposticha and its Doxasticon? 

There should be a special section in your Menaion with the hymns used in those special circumstances.  If you don't have it, maybe I can copy/scan the stuff from our copy of the HTM Menaion...

If you're looking for it in a menaion, you'll find them after the OT readings; it will have the direction to "continue with the Divine Liturgy," and will tell you the COmmunion hymn, and directions for the end of the service, and then will have the rest of the Vesperal Hymns.

In the Greek tradition (like the HTM menaion), the Aposticha are idiomatic hymns (unique melodies); first one in 2nd Mode, second and third ones in 3rd mode, the Doxasticon is in 4th, as is the Theotokion (it's unusual to have both a Doxasticon and Theotokion on a Lord's feastday, but they're written in here).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 01:58:33 PM by cleveland »
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2008, 02:00:57 PM »
^Cleveland, that's what I thought.  So, if that were the case (and I know it's not here), after the hymn "O Gladsome Light", what do we use for the Aposticha and its Doxasticon? 

There should be a special section in your Menaion with the hymns used in those special circumstances.  If you don't have it, maybe I can copy/scan the stuff from our copy of the HTM Menaion...

If you're looking for it in a menaion, you'll find them after the OT readings; it will have the direction to "continue with the Divine Liturgy," and will tell you the COmmunion hymn, and directions for the end of the service, and then will have the rest of the Vesperal Hymns.

In the Greek tradition (like the HTM menaion), the Aposticha are idiomatic hymns (unique melodies); first one in 2nd Mode, second and third ones in 3rd mode, the Doxasticon is in 4th, as is the Theotokion (it's unusual to have both a Doxasticon and Theotokion on a Lord's feastday, but they're written in here).

Thanks, Cleveland.  Our church has the HTM menaion and I'll consult it tonight when I go over there.  I thought about asking Fr. for a blessing to do a reader's Vespers at 3 pm prior to the serving of Nativity Orthros and the Divine Liturgy.
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Great Vespers on Nativity Eve
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2008, 02:38:55 PM »
Thanks, Cleveland.  Our church has the HTM menaion and I'll consult it tonight when I go over there. 

Pages 216-217.

I thought about asking Fr. for a blessing to do a reader's Vespers at 3 pm prior to the serving of Nativity Orthros and the Divine Liturgy.

Sound's great.  I love the beauty of the services around the Christmas feastday; I hope you indeed get your blessing, and that it be a great blessing indeed to you!
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.