OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 29, 2014, 10:50:41 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Iranian to be blinded with acid for doing same to woman  (Read 3033 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« on: December 18, 2008, 04:09:19 AM »

Quote
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- An Iranian woman, blinded by a jilted stalker who threw acid in her face, has persuaded a court to sentence him to be blinded with acid himself under Islamic law demanding an eye for an eye.

Ameneh Bahrami refused to accept "blood money." She insisted instead that her attacker suffer a fate similar to her own "so people like him would realize they do not have the right to throw acid in girls' faces," she told the Tehran Provincial Court.

Her attacker, a 27-year-old man identified in court papers as Majid, admitted throwing acid in her face in November 2004, blinding and disfiguring her. He said he loved her and insisted she loved him as well.

He has until early this week to appeal the sentence.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.acid.justice/index.html

What do you guys think of this? Not intended for political discussion....maybe moral discussion
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 04:10:21 AM by Myrrh23 » Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2008, 04:18:32 AM »

Quote
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- An Iranian woman, blinded by a jilted stalker who threw acid in her face, has persuaded a court to sentence him to be blinded with acid himself under Islamic law demanding an eye for an eye.

Ameneh Bahrami refused to accept "blood money." She insisted instead that her attacker suffer a fate similar to her own "so people like him would realize they do not have the right to throw acid in girls' faces," she told the Tehran Provincial Court.

Her attacker, a 27-year-old man identified in court papers as Majid, admitted throwing acid in her face in November 2004, blinding and disfiguring her. He said he loved her and insisted she loved him as well.

He has until early this week to appeal the sentence.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.acid.justice/index.html

What do you guys think of this? Not intended for political discussion....maybe moral discussion

They guy certainy has issues...he should probably spend the next 15-20 years in prison, but this idea of blinding him is utterly absurd and simply reveals Iran for the barbaric and unhuman regime it truly is. But what do you expect when you base laws upon religious texts...
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2008, 04:19:37 AM »

"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind" - Mahatma Gandhi
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Robert W
Self-appointed forum herald
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Finland
Posts: 469


Love is no feeling


« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2008, 05:47:33 AM »

This is no isolated incident.

My wife is born in a country where girls risk getting disfigured faces due to acid if they refuse to marry someone. The reasoning of the men is that "if I can't get her then no one will". While this is illegal it still happen regularly and the perpetrators are rarely punished.

The fact that this man in Iran is going to get punished at all is actually great news! GO IRAN!

While we obviously think that the punishment is barbaric, and would chose prison for him instead, we must not let this get in the way of recognizing that this is a step forward for the right to life and liberty of women living under these conditions.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,960


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2008, 08:20:51 AM »

They guy certainy has issues...he should probably spend the next 15-20 years in prison, but this idea of blinding him is utterly absurd and simply reveals Iran for the barbaric and unhuman regime it truly is.

I'm torn.  On the one hand I agree 100% - what a barbaric practice.  On the other hand, I'm totally shocked that they decided to take the woman's side - I would think they'd have forced her to take the "blood money" instead of harming a man at her request, especially for the sake of other women.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2008, 09:30:47 AM »

Quote
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- An Iranian woman, blinded by a jilted stalker who threw acid in her face, has persuaded a court to sentence him to be blinded with acid himself under Islamic law demanding an eye for an eye.

Ameneh Bahrami refused to accept "blood money." She insisted instead that her attacker suffer a fate similar to her own "so people like him would realize they do not have the right to throw acid in girls' faces," she told the Tehran Provincial Court.

Her attacker, a 27-year-old man identified in court papers as Majid, admitted throwing acid in her face in November 2004, blinding and disfiguring her. He said he loved her and insisted she loved him as well.

He has until early this week to appeal the sentence.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.acid.justice/index.html

What do you guys think of this? Not intended for political discussion....maybe moral discussion

They guy certainy has issues...he should probably spend the next 15-20 years in prison, but this idea of blinding him is utterly absurd and simply reveals Iran for the barbaric and unhuman regime it truly is. But what do you expect when you base laws upon religious texts...

...yes, the laws of Robespierre, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were SOOOO much better.

Actually, the laws of St. Vladimir were.  What did he base his law on again?

This is no isolated incident.

My wife is born in a country where girls risk getting disfigured faces due to acid if they refuse to marry someone. The reasoning of the men is that "if I can't get her then no one will". While this is illegal it still happen regularly and the perpetrators are rarely punished.

The fact that this man in Iran is going to get punished at all is actually great news! GO IRAN!

While we obviously think that the punishment is barbaric, and would chose prison for him instead, we must not let this get in the way of recognizing that this is a step forward for the right to life and liberty of women living under these conditions.

I have to agree with you.  I don't know what country your wife is from, as the description fits so many countries I know.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 09:34:04 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2008, 11:51:29 AM »

...yes, the laws of Robespierre, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were SOOOO much better.

Robespierre and Mao are definately improvements on religion, Stalin and Pol Pot vs. religion is a toss up, six of one, half dozen of the other...their ideologies had a religious ferver to them even if they wern't religious in a technical sense. The true evil is suspending reason for faith and Pol Pot especially is just as guilty of that as the Popes of Rome and the Protestant Reformers.

But I can say with certainty that I would much rather live under the laws of Locke, Franklin, and Jefferson and I am glad that I do, even though these ideals are sometimes imperfectly implemented. But if religious law is your cup of tea, Saudi Arabia awaits you.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2008, 11:55:36 AM »

While we obviously think that the punishment is barbaric, and would chose prison for him instead, we must not let this get in the way of recognizing that this is a step forward for the right to life and liberty of women living under these conditions.

Yes, it is good that they are prosecuting the crime...but punishing someone for essentially torturing someone else is hardly a human rights milestone, I could think of a hundred ways they could improve the plight of women in Iran without resorting to medieval torture...all in all, this is not a step forward for human rights, it's another example of an Islamic country being completely incapable of even recognizing human rights issues.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2008, 11:59:15 AM »

How are they improvements on religion, GIC? Their actions led down the same road as the Inquisition and the Crusades: enslavement to madness. What of the evil in suspending reason for power, as Mao did?
Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2008, 12:00:28 PM »

While we obviously think that the punishment is barbaric, and would chose prison for him instead, we must not let this get in the way of recognizing that this is a step forward for the right to life and liberty of women living under these conditions.

Yes, it is good that they are prosecuting the crime...but punishing someone for essentially torturing someone else is hardly a human rights milestone, I could think of a hundred ways they could improve the plight of women in Iran without resorting to medieval torture...all in all, this is not a step forward for human rights, it's another example of an Islamic country being completely incapable of even recognizing human rights issues.

How is it different from, say, castrating a child molestor? Unless this man is mentally ill....
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 12:02:17 PM by Myrrh23 » Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
Robert W
Self-appointed forum herald
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Finland
Posts: 469


Love is no feeling


« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2008, 12:20:06 PM »

While we obviously think that the punishment is barbaric, and would chose prison for him instead, we must not let this get in the way of recognizing that this is a step forward for the right to life and liberty of women living under these conditions.

Yes, it is good that they are prosecuting the crime...but punishing someone for essentially torturing someone else is hardly a human rights milestone, I could think of a hundred ways they could improve the plight of women in Iran without resorting to medieval torture...all in all, this is not a step forward for human rights, it's another example of an Islamic country being completely incapable of even recognizing human rights issues.
(emphasis added)

Isn't it? Which one of the following two alternatives do you think is better?

  • Iran punishes violent crimes against women in a brutal way
  • Iran ignores violent crimes against women

The difference between these two alternative constitutes a milestone in my opinion.

Then of course we have the third alternative...

  • Iran punishes violent crimes against women in a sensible way

...Unfortunately the real world is not a fairytale.

I am of the opinion that defending innocent women is a step a nation must take before it can start discussing the rights of violent criminals.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 12:23:43 PM by Robert W » Logged
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2008, 12:34:37 PM »

While we obviously think that the punishment is barbaric, and would chose prison for him instead, we must not let this get in the way of recognizing that this is a step forward for the right to life and liberty of women living under these conditions.

Yes, it is good that they are prosecuting the crime...but punishing someone for essentially torturing someone else is hardly a human rights milestone, I could think of a hundred ways they could improve the plight of women in Iran without resorting to medieval torture...all in all, this is not a step forward for human rights, it's another example of an Islamic country being completely incapable of even recognizing human rights issues.

How is it different from, say, castrating a child molestor? Unless this man is mentally ill....


The castration of child molesters is performed to decrease their sex drive, in order to hopefully prevent them from offending again...
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2008, 01:11:37 PM »

While we obviously think that the punishment is barbaric, and would chose prison for him instead, we must not let this get in the way of recognizing that this is a step forward for the right to life and liberty of women living under these conditions.

Yes, it is good that they are prosecuting the crime...but punishing someone for essentially torturing someone else is hardly a human rights milestone, I could think of a hundred ways they could improve the plight of women in Iran without resorting to medieval torture...all in all, this is not a step forward for human rights, it's another example of an Islamic country being completely incapable of even recognizing human rights issues.

How is it different from, say, castrating a child molestor? Unless this man is mentally ill....


The castration of child molesters is performed to decrease their sex drive, in order to hopefully prevent them from offending again...

And the blinding of this offender might serve to keep him from eyeing another bottle of acid. Or it could just prevent him from holding down a job and place him on the streets... Tongue Embarrassed
Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2008, 01:22:31 PM »

While we obviously think that the punishment is barbaric, and would chose prison for him instead, we must not let this get in the way of recognizing that this is a step forward for the right to life and liberty of women living under these conditions.

Yes, it is good that they are prosecuting the crime...but punishing someone for essentially torturing someone else is hardly a human rights milestone, I could think of a hundred ways they could improve the plight of women in Iran without resorting to medieval torture...all in all, this is not a step forward for human rights, it's another example of an Islamic country being completely incapable of even recognizing human rights issues.
(emphasis added)

Isn't it? Which one of the following two alternatives do you think is better?

  • Iran punishes violent crimes against women in a brutal way
  • Iran ignores violent crimes against women

The difference between these two alternative constitutes a milestone in my opinion.

Then of course we have the third alternative...

  • Iran punishes violent crimes against women in a sensible way

...Unfortunately the real world is not a fairytale.

I am of the opinion that defending innocent women is a step a nation must take before it can start discussing the rights of violent criminals.

No, a state doesn't have to violate the human rights of one group to uphold those of another. If the current regime cannot both protect their population and prosecute crimes in a sensible way, perhaps another would be more capable...

And it's not a fairytale, several other nations seem to be able to manage to protect the rights of traditionally disadvantaged groups without resorting to torture. I fail to see why this is particularly difficult for Iran.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2008, 01:27:10 PM »

...yes, the laws of Robespierre, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were SOOOO much better.

Robespierre and Mao are definately improvements on religion, Stalin and Pol Pot vs. religion is a toss up, six of one, half dozen of the other...their ideologies had a religious ferver to them even if they wern't religious in a technical sense. The true evil is suspending reason for faith and Pol Pot especially is just as guilty of that as the Popes of Rome and the Protestant Reformers.
How so?  No faith, except in human reason.  Pol Pot reasoned out his whole regimes.

Quote
But I can say with certainty that I would much rather live under the laws of Locke, Franklin, and Jefferson and I am glad that I do, even though these ideals are sometimes imperfectly implemented. But if religious law is your cup of tea, Saudi Arabia awaits you.

Islam's not my cup of tea.  One religion is not as good as another, or are you indifferent between Locke, Marx, Lenin and Hitler, all enlightenment children?  I might be in the UAE next month.  Close enough for you?

And Cuba awaits you.  Castro's law is all secular, and founded rock solid on your enlightement.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2008, 01:28:20 PM »

While we obviously think that the punishment is barbaric, and would chose prison for him instead, we must not let this get in the way of recognizing that this is a step forward for the right to life and liberty of women living under these conditions.

Yes, it is good that they are prosecuting the crime...but punishing someone for essentially torturing someone else is hardly a human rights milestone, I could think of a hundred ways they could improve the plight of women in Iran without resorting to medieval torture...all in all, this is not a step forward for human rights, it's another example of an Islamic country being completely incapable of even recognizing human rights issues.

How is it different from, say, castrating a child molestor? Unless this man is mentally ill....


The castration of child molesters is performed to decrease their sex drive, in order to hopefully prevent them from offending again...

And the blinding of this offender might serve to keep him from eyeing another bottle of acid. Or it could just prevent him from holding down a job and place him on the streets... Tongue Embarrassed

Highly doubtful. I doubt he learned his lesson.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,825



« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2008, 03:22:10 PM »

i'm surprised that the Iranian authorities are actually going to act on behalf of a woman.  Normally, the crime against a woman would somehow be her fault and thus the guy would get off scott free.  At least, Iran is applying its twisted sense of punishment and justice equally between the sexes.

Have any offers been made to this woman for some free reconstructive surgery for her face from doctors around the world?  It'd be a nice gesture.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 03:22:55 PM by scamandrius » Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,328


« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2008, 03:42:08 PM »

Quote
He said he loved her and insisted she loved him as well.

Uh huh. I don't particularly like the punishment, but I'm glad he's getting some punishment.
Logged

.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,008


WWW
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2008, 05:09:12 PM »

There's one more reason I'm opposed to the Death Penalty anywhere in the world.

"An eye for an eye" punishments are anachronisms.

If someone doesn't wish to be "good for goodness sake" and throws acid into the faces of Muslim women, how does one rehabilitate an anti-social person anywhere in the world (including countries with Sharia Law)?   Huh
Logged
Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Sunday Morning Costume Parade
Posts: 931


I'm just here for the food.


« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2008, 08:24:22 PM »

That man belongs in prison forever, blind or not blind.  I can't say I support the "eye for an eye" punishment, but if there's something pleasant to take away from it, it's that this woman was listened to and her rights are being respected.  (I read that the previous president of Iran actually paid personally for most of her treatment, including sending her to Spain for surgery on what's left of her eyes.) 

And, God help me, I can't really say that that creep getting his eyes burned out with acid is going to keep me up at night.  Maybe it'll make other guys think twice before they burn a woman's face just because she'd like to marry someone worth marrying.
Logged

He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2008, 09:01:13 PM »

Orual, I hear you. We had another recent news article about guys on motorcycles spraying Afghan schoolgirls with acid from spray bottles. Some of those girls are now disfigured. I don't support "eye for an eye" in a lot of cases, but you have to wonder about someone who is willing to hurt people like that, blind and disfigure them, or ruin their whole lives. This man is not innocent. He deserves forgiveness, but he also deserves to know what it feels like to lose something as precious as your eyesight. Maybe it won't teach the guy anything, as Ukiemeister said, but then perhaps it will. For many people, they don't seem to know the gravity of their actions until they experience it for themselves.
(Sighs) Then again, how are both people growing closer to God if evil is repayed with evil? Sad Even if he were to be put in prison, he'd probably be beaten and tortured. Either way, it's just more suffering.
Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2008, 09:24:43 PM »

He deserves forgiveness, but he also deserves to know what it feels like to lose something as precious as your eyesight.

No, he doesn't deserve forgiveness and it's sick and twisted to suggest that he does. But neither should he be tortured, I'm sure loosing 20 years of his life in prison would make him think twice. In fact, it might be a greater punishment than blinding him, but it's cetainly more civil.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2008, 09:43:41 PM »

He deserves forgiveness, but he also deserves to know what it feels like to lose something as precious as your eyesight.

No, he doesn't deserve forgiveness and it's sick and twisted to suggest that he does.
Then just torture him to death.
I'd admit that he would have to ask for it first before that is even an issue.
Quote
But neither should he be tortured,
Why not?
Quote
I'm sure loosing 20 years of his life in prison would make him think twice.
No, it'd prevent him from doing it again, at least for 20 years.
Quote
In fact, it might be a greater punishment than blinding him, but it's cetainly more civil.
Do you know what goes on in Iranian prisions?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2008, 01:08:44 AM »

He deserves forgiveness, but he also deserves to know what it feels like to lose something as precious as your eyesight.

No, he doesn't deserve forgiveness and it's sick and twisted to suggest that he does.
Then just torture him to death.
I'd admit that he would have to ask for it first before that is even an issue.
Quote
But neither should he be tortured,
Why not?

You know, the guy probably deserves to be hung by meat hooks, have bamboo shoots shoved up his finger and toe nails, have thumb screws applied, have his eyes put out with hot irons, be put on the rack for a few days, then drawn and burned alive. However, as justified as this treatment may be on one level, there is a fundamental problem with any state that would allow it...heck, you let a state start doing this next it might be stoning innocent women for something as trivial as adultery...oh wait...

You see, the reason that torture is unacceptable is becuse any state willing to implement lacks the wisdom and dignity to use it responsibly.

Using torture to punish this man isn't an advancement of human rights in Iran; it's simply an attempt at the vindication of the barbaric practices of this medieval and inhuman regime. This woman may get justice, but countless others will needlessly suffer for it, and that is a price too high to pay.

Quote
Do you know what goes on in Iranian prisions?

If their prisons are too bad to be able to send people to and expect civil treatment (and I'm sure they are since the same can be said of American prisons, though certainly to a lesser degree than the Iranian ones), that's a problem, but an entirely different one.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Robert W
Self-appointed forum herald
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Finland
Posts: 469


Love is no feeling


« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2008, 02:56:34 AM »

No, a state doesn't have to violate the human rights of one group to uphold those of another. If the current regime cannot both protect their population and prosecute crimes in a sensible way, perhaps another would be more capable...

And it's not a fairytale, several other nations seem to be able to manage to protect the rights of traditionally disadvantaged groups without resorting to torture. I fail to see why this is particularly difficult for Iran.

I cannot say I disagree with you here. You are absolutely right. Iran should abandon punishments that are in fact torture.

Unfortunately Iran has legislation that makes this punishment completely legal. What I think is a step forward is that Iran implements its own laws to defend a woman. Usually these crimes goes unpunished.

I think there are two different topics discussed here. The human rights of criminals in Iran and the human rights of women in Iran. In one of these topics the human rights are not advancing at all, in the other the human rights ARE advancing.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2008, 08:39:51 AM »

He deserves forgiveness, but he also deserves to know what it feels like to lose something as precious as your eyesight.

No, he doesn't deserve forgiveness and it's sick and twisted to suggest that he does.
Then just torture him to death.
I'd admit that he would have to ask for it first before that is even an issue.
Quote
But neither should he be tortured,
Why not?

You know, the guy probably deserves to be hung by meat hooks, have bamboo shoots shoved up his finger and toe nails, have thumb screws applied, have his eyes put out with hot irons, be put on the rack for a few days, then drawn and burned alive. However, as justified as this treatment may be on one level, there is a fundamental problem with any state that would allow it...heck, you let a state start doing this next it might be stoning innocent women for something as trivial as adultery

After you have a wife and kids, get back to me on how "trivial" adultery is.

Quote
...oh wait...

Why?  Because it touches your crime of choice?

Quote
You see, the reason that torture is unacceptable is becuse any state willing to implement lacks the wisdom and dignity to use it responsibly.

No, because torture serves no purpose.

Quote
Using torture to punish this man isn't an advancement of human rights in Iran; it's simply an attempt at the vindication of the barbaric practices of this medieval and inhuman regime. This woman may get justice, but countless others will needlessly suffer for it, and that is a price too high to pay.

That's had to decided.  How many women WON'T have acid thrown in their faces.

I've never understood this phenomena.  Don't these women have fathers and brothers?

Quote
Do you know what goes on in Iranian prisions?

Quote
If their prisons are too bad to be able to send people to and expect civil treatment (and I'm sure they are since the same can be said of American prisons, though certainly to a lesser degree than the Iranian ones), that's a problem, but an entirely different one.

Having been in America's (actually, the worlds) largest prison (if you don't make a distinction between jail and prison.  The inmates do), Cook County Jail, I can assure you that there is no comparison.  I'll add, those complaining in the American system have legitimate beefs.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,960


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2008, 09:02:33 AM »

I've never understood this phenomena.  Don't these women have fathers and brothers?

Don't leave it to the Muslim men of the family; they're likely to kill the guy who threw the acid, burn his house and the houses of his relatives, and practically enslave their sister (despite the fact that she is probably 100% innocent in the matter).
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2008, 09:07:25 AM »

I've never understood this phenomena.  Don't these women have fathers and brothers?

Don't leave it to the Muslim men of the family; they're likely to kill the guy who threw the acid, burn his house and the houses of his relatives, and practically enslave their sister (despite the fact that she is probably 100% innocent in the matter).

Not saying they would be better.  But in these incidents (and they are not uncommon) I never hear a peep from what her menfolk are up to.  Since Muslim law depends, nay demands, that a woman needs a man to sue, the silence is deafening.  The difference, for instance, from what would happen if he slept with her rather than disfiguring her is rather bizarre.  I'm not sure I want to understand it.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,960


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2008, 09:14:31 AM »

Not saying they would be better.  But in these incidents (and they are not uncommon) I never hear a peep from what her menfolk are up to.  Since Muslim law depends, nay demands, that a woman needs a man to sue, the silence is deafening.  The difference, for instance, from what would happen if he slept with her rather than disfiguring her is rather bizarre.  I'm not sure I want to understand it.

I hadn't thought of it in that way; I don't think I want to understand it either.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2008, 10:47:22 AM »

After you have a wife and kids, get back to me on how "trivial" adultery is.

Certainly destroying to a relationship, but by no means a crime. Your comment, given the fact that we're discussing it in the context of the Iranian legal system is absolutely despicable; it's nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to justify torture, oppression, and murder.

Quote
No, because torture serves no purpose.

Quote
Using torture to punish this man isn't an advancement of human rights in Iran; it's simply an attempt at the vindication of the barbaric practices of this medieval and inhuman regime. This woman may get justice, but countless others will needlessly suffer for it, and that is a price too high to pay.

That's had to decided.  How many women WON'T have acid thrown in their faces.

I thought it served no purpose?

Quote
Having been in America's (actually, the worlds) largest prison (if you don't make a distinction between jail and prison.  The inmates do), Cook County Jail, I can assure you that there is no comparison.  I'll add, those complaining in the American system have legitimate beefs.

They are very different; at least the difference between jail and maximum security prison, between jail and a minimum security prison, probably not so much. American jails, while suffering from problems (mostly related to overcrowding) arn't all that bad. Maximum Security Prisons, on the other hand, those are a different story. But still, I doubt they even compare to Iranian prisons.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2008, 10:51:32 AM »

I cannot say I disagree with you here. You are absolutely right. Iran should abandon punishments that are in fact torture.

Unfortunately Iran has legislation that makes this punishment completely legal. What I think is a step forward is that Iran implements its own laws to defend a woman. Usually these crimes goes unpunished.

Yes, they do have such legislation; but seeing how we live in a global community, the rest of us have to take responsibility for this legislation. And informing the people who are oblivious to the crimes against humanity that take place under this regime is the first step to getting it changed.

Quote
I think there are two different topics discussed here. The human rights of criminals in Iran and the human rights of women in Iran. In one of these topics the human rights are not advancing at all, in the other the human rights ARE advancing.

Considering the inequality in the Iranian justice system and how women are made into criminals for actions that are not crimes at all...I would say that the two topics are VERY related.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Robert W
Self-appointed forum herald
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Finland
Posts: 469


Love is no feeling


« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2008, 11:16:35 AM »

Yes the topics are related. And the international community should pressure Iran on ALL human rights issues.

While Iran persists in using barbaric methods of punishment (no positive change here) it also defends the rights of a woman which is and actual positive change. Surely anyone cannot fail to see this?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2008, 12:05:27 PM »

After you have a wife and kids, get back to me on how "trivial" adultery is.

Quote
Certainly destroying to a relationship, but by no means a crime.

I'd go into this, but it's not necessary, at least in Illinois.  "Open and notorious" adulery is a crime and in the criminal code, something the courts have reiterated as the General Assembly has (it hasn't been procecuted on its own for a while, always in conjunction with something else. And there is always something else.

Quote
Your comment, given the fact that we're discussing it in the context of the Iranian legal system is absolutely despicable;

LOL. The comment "abosolutely despicable" is reserved for those who have morality.

Quote
it's nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to justify torture, oppression, and murder.

No, it's pointing out the inadequacies of your amoral world view.

Quote
No, because torture serves no purpose.

Quote
Using torture to punish this man isn't an advancement of human rights in Iran; it's simply an attempt at the vindication of the barbaric practices of this medieval and inhuman regime. This woman may get justice, but countless others will needlessly suffer for it, and that is a price too high to pay.

Quote
That's had to decided.  How many women WON'T have acid thrown in their faces.

Quote
I thought it served no purpose?

Purpose could be served by a simple execution.  Torture is unnecessary.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 12:11:45 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2008, 12:16:11 PM »

I cannot say I disagree with you here. You are absolutely right. Iran should abandon punishments that are in fact torture.

Unfortunately Iran has legislation that makes this punishment completely legal. What I think is a step forward is that Iran implements its own laws to defend a woman. Usually these crimes goes unpunished.

Yes, they do have such legislation; but seeing how we live in a global community, the rest of us have to take responsibility for this legislation. And informing the people who are oblivious to the crimes against humanity that take place under this regime is the first step to getting it changed.

Interesting. I saw the same justification for Ayatollah Khomeini's fatwa against Salmon Rushdie, who is not Iranian, not in Iran nor publishing in Iran (obviously).

Quote
I think there are two different topics discussed here. The human rights of criminals in Iran and the human rights of women in Iran. In one of these topics the human rights are not advancing at all, in the other the human rights ARE advancing.

Quote
Considering the inequality in the Iranian justice system and how women are made into criminals for actions that are not crimes at all...I would say that the two topics are VERY related.
Ah, proof that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Simkins
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Православный
Posts: 306


« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2009, 08:51:41 PM »

...yes, the laws of Robespierre, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were SOOOO much better.
Robespierre and Stalin? Stalin was Thermidor. One of victims of so loathed by you Stalin' repressions was Yurovsky.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.129 seconds with 62 queries.