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Author Topic: Converts wearing headcoverings= legalists?  (Read 11291 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2013, 11:28:44 AM »

I want to apologize for my poor behavior. I've been kind of a yutz lately.

I'm working on it.  Embarrassed Kiss
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« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2013, 12:01:42 PM »

I want to apologize for my poor behavior. I've been kind of a yutz lately.

I'm working on it.  Embarrassed Kiss

 Kiss Wink I don't mind a bit of spice here and there myself, when the intent is to sweeten as yours is most of the time, mazel tov!
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« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2013, 12:07:21 PM »

Punch has related elsewhere on the forum that his Serbian priest will not commune women without headcoverings. I have also seen several church etiquette guides on church websites saying that headcoverings are to be worn. Example: http://sfsobor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=81&lang=en

This is true.  And you should have seen the looks that I got from priests from other jurisdictions when we enforced this during a recent service where all the local priests decided to come to our Church where a visiting Bishop (Old Calendar) was serving.  
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« Reply #138 on: February 09, 2013, 07:30:40 PM »

I understand your concern.

For 16 years, I was mocked and told that I was being legalistic for wearing a headcovering only to receive Holy Communion. Note: I was not wearing this mantilla during the entire Divine Liturgy as the priest told me that there were some feminists present in the church who would give me dirty looks  should I dare to wear it for the entire Divine Liturgy or worse gossip about me while the sermon was being delivered.
that's a shame.  that shouldn't be happening on either side of the issue -- the wearers OR those who don't.

i agree completely. The Lord wants us to love one another, not be cruel.

Exactly, we are to forgive and to love one another as Christ has first loved us.

Amen sister!! I am really grateful this thread has come back to a gentle loving discussion, praise the Lord!

Thanks Karaleighmum.

Bringing this thread back on topic once again.

Can women who choose to wear a headcovering be treated with Christian love and respect?
Actually, if one considers the vast expanse of Russia, the majority of women in the Orthodox Church do cover their heads. America is not the norm.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 07:32:23 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #139 on: February 09, 2013, 07:33:39 PM »

Punch has related elsewhere on the forum that his Serbian priest will not commune women without headcoverings. I have also seen several church etiquette guides on church websites saying that headcoverings are to be worn. Example: http://sfsobor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=81&lang=en

This is true.  And you should have seen the looks that I got from priests from other jurisdictions when we enforced this during a recent service where all the local priests decided to come to our Church where a visiting Bishop (Old Calendar) was serving.


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« Reply #140 on: February 10, 2013, 12:06:33 AM »

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
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« Reply #141 on: February 10, 2013, 02:42:31 AM »

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?
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« Reply #142 on: February 10, 2013, 03:25:00 AM »

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?

The Orthodox Christian Church has always and in all places urged women to cover their heads from the beginning of Christianity. Unfortunately, the modernists of the 20th century have urged women to free themselves sexually, and thus to stop wearing the headcovering, which is a sign of modesty.

Even St. Nectarios of Aegina in the early 20th century lamented the changes wrought by his priestly contemporaries to change the priestly appearance by the removal of facial hair and the cessation of the frock by priests. These highly educated innovative modernists and ecumenists, including the freemason Patriarch Meletius, urged the wearing of either business suits or the Roman collar by priests.

In other words, all forms of modest apparel in men and women have now been shunned, and the Scriptures that advocate modesty have been questioned as not representing our Sacred and Holy Traditions.

Also appalling is the use of big "T" and little "t" for our Sacred Traditions, as such has crept in from Roman Catholicism and is not part of Holy Orthodoxy. We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.

Please keep to the topic at hand, and avoid such polemics to disparage the reading and the keeping of our Sacred Scriptures. Our catechumens and inquirers do not need to be harassed for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions such as the wearing of headcoverings and modest dress, especially if their priests have urged them to keep these Holy Traditions.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 03:37:12 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #143 on: February 10, 2013, 03:48:28 AM »

We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.

Like in the past there weren't revealing clothes...
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« Reply #144 on: February 10, 2013, 03:57:37 AM »

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."
But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?

The Orthodox Christian Church has always and in all places urged women to cover their heads from the beginning of Christianity. Unfortunately, the modernists of the 20th century have urged women to free themselves sexually, and thus to stop wearing the headcovering, which is a sign of modesty.

Even St. Nectarios of Aegina in the early 20th century lamented the changes wrought by his priestly contemporaries to change the priestly appearance by the removal of facial hair and the cessation of the frock by priests. These highly educated innovative modernists and ecumenists, including the freemason Patriarch Meletius, urged the wearing of either business suits or the Roman collar by priests.

In other words, all forms of modest apparel in men and women have now been shunned, and the Scriptures that advocate modesty have been questioned as not representing our Sacred and Holy Traditions.

Also appalling is the use of big "T" and little "t" for our Sacred Traditions, as such has crept in from Roman Catholicism and is not part of Holy Orthodoxy. We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.

Please keep to the topic at hand, and avoid such polemics to disparage the reading and the keeping of our Sacred Scriptures.
I am sticking to the topic at hand, Maria.

Our catechumens and inquirers do not need to be harassed for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions such as the wearing of headcoverings and modest dress, especially if their priests have urged them to keep these Holy Traditions.
No one is harassing our converts for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions, Maria. The question of what constitutes those Holy Traditions, though, is not as clear as you think, and many of our converts recognize that.

BTW, you never answered my question. Were the Scriptures written in a vacuum or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 04:00:05 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #145 on: February 10, 2013, 04:04:20 AM »

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 04:04:56 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #146 on: February 10, 2013, 04:11:31 AM »


Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

Thank you for admitting this. No, we should not make any such generalizations as such would be considered judgmental.
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« Reply #147 on: February 10, 2013, 05:44:24 AM »

I personally don't believe in the "Big-T/Little-t" distinction; that makes really no sense and has no basis in the history of the Church. However, my thoughts are that the issue should be left to the discernment of the convert's Bishop and/or spiritual father; what do they believe is appropriate for them at the time? etc. Ultimately, the intention of why a convert would want to wear a headcovering is what matters. If it is out of true zeal, then--as Maria stated--why hinder her? What's so wrong with wanting to adhere to the Church in all aspects? If--however--it is rooted in Hyperdox Herman-like pride, then, it is probably up to her spiritual father to handle the issue.
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« Reply #148 on: February 10, 2013, 06:36:28 AM »

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

Converts can have a hard time unlearning their previous ways and really embracing Orthodoxy, and they need all the help they can get.

If wearing a head covering helps, by all means wear it. If not, skip it.

A parish has every right in the world to establish its own dress code; if there is one, follow it or go elsewhere - if there isn't, let people make individual choices and leave well alone.

If you started out without covering and along the way you feel called to veil, go ahead. If you used to veil and now you want to stop, more power to you.

Orthodoxy never was and never will be one-size-fits-all.
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« Reply #149 on: February 10, 2013, 07:36:50 AM »

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her. 
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« Reply #150 on: February 10, 2013, 03:50:25 PM »

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

This!
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« Reply #151 on: February 10, 2013, 10:19:03 PM »

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.  

Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 10:22:00 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #152 on: February 10, 2013, 10:52:36 PM »

Should she dress like a harlot? Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.

But it is not "associated with harlotry" now in any part of the U.S. that I am aware of.  Do you know of some place where ladies who have their hair visible are assumed to be selling their favours?

Which "recent past" are you thinking of, please? And what countries/cultures?  This was/is not a universal and it certainly has not be "associated with harlotry" in my life time in the United States, nor in my mother's time and she is 90 1/2
In many parts of America and other parts of the world headgear has many meanings.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 10:56:32 PM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #153 on: February 10, 2013, 11:54:29 PM »

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.  

Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
Maria, I know I contributed to the drift, so let me now work on correcting my error. This thread is NOT about the value of head coverings per se. This thread is NOT about whether women should wear head coverings in church or not. What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 11:55:36 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #154 on: February 11, 2013, 02:33:51 AM »

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

I agree.  Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them.  With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police.  That is God's and the priest's job, not mine.  I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person.  If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.  

Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.
Maria, I know I contributed to the drift, so let me now work on correcting my error. This thread is NOT about the value of head coverings per se. This thread is NOT about whether women should wear head coverings in church or not. What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.

Of course, it is not proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings as we are not to judge any one. Instead, we are to look at our own failings.
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« Reply #155 on: February 11, 2013, 02:56:39 AM »

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
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« Reply #156 on: February 11, 2013, 04:31:59 AM »

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
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« Reply #157 on: February 11, 2013, 06:05:05 AM »

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
Huh
There was only one question, right?
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« Reply #158 on: February 11, 2013, 12:23:45 PM »

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
Huh
There was only one question, right?
Your response could be seen as answer to a question or as response to a request. It's not at all clear to me which one you're referring to.
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« Reply #159 on: February 11, 2013, 03:49:16 PM »


In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly.

I've heard some such opinions from men too. But I think, that it's THEIR problem (mostly). I dress modestly, but generally not head covering. So, if a man is tempted by me, it's his problem. Of course if a woman puts on, especially in church, a miniskirt, it's her fault and sin the first place.

But regarding the question, now I think that if some women wear headcoverings only for the sacraments (confession, Eucharist) and for the rest service not, it is a legalistic beahaviour. Because they think they're, let's say, "worthy" (probably not proper word) to receive a sacrament only if they cover their's heads, althoguh for the rest of service/Liturgy and prayers they do not it.
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« Reply #160 on: February 11, 2013, 04:27:36 PM »

Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings

really?  maybe in some countries, but uh, not where I live. 

In fact, I bet that some folks actually fetishize headcoverings. How many here probably think a woman is "more beautiful" with a headcovering?  I think a fixation on the heacovering becomes quite unhealthy.

As I said at the beginning: wear it, don't wear it, according to one's conscience and culture.
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« Reply #161 on: February 11, 2013, 04:44:46 PM »

For what it is worth, in my Russian Orthodox Church in Spain, about, oh, 100% of the women over the age 8 cover their hair.

I love it because (1) I think it is Scriptural and (2) I find it less distracting, given that we are all standing.

I've never heard any woman in the parish complain and there are a number of professional women. I sizeable number seem to wear Burberry...very fashionable.  Wink
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« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2013, 05:41:27 PM »

It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.  The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.


In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly.

I've heard some such opinions from men too. But I think, that it's THEIR problem (mostly). I dress modestly, but generally not head covering. So, if a man is tempted by me, it's his problem. Of course if a woman puts on, especially in church, a miniskirt, it's her fault and sin the first place.

But regarding the question, now I think that if some women wear headcoverings only for the sacraments (confession, Eucharist) and for the rest service not, it is a legalistic beahaviour. Because they think they're, let's say, "worthy" (probably not proper word) to receive a sacrament only if they cover their's heads, althoguh for the rest of service/Liturgy and prayers they do not it.
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« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2013, 10:02:45 PM »

Headcovering: Legalism or Obedience to God

Several women in my prior parish were given a blessing to wear a headcovering only when receiving the sacraments, so that we would not upset the majority of females who were blatant feminists. The priest was hoping that our example would help the parish change. But alas, it further divided the OCA parish as the loud and strident feminists would rather tear our parish apart than see a women veiled.

Yes, there were a couple of other women who were given permission to wear their headcoverings during the entire Divine Liturgy, but these women were single and were contemplating entering the monastic life. So as not to cause confusion, the priest consistently advised married women to wear the head covering only at the time the sacrament was administered to them, but single women discerning the monastic life could wear it at any time, even in the parish hall. We all wore the head covering in a spirit of obedience. Later, most of us left that sick parish, especially after the Bishop issued a letter rebuking that parish.

So, wearing the headcovering was not done in a spirit of legalism, but rather it was worn in humility and obedience. In fact, I had to have the blessing of my (former) priest and my husband in order to wear it, which is strange since St. Paul admonished women to wear the veil. Was my priest above St. Paul? Of course not, but he was between a sharp rock (the strident women) and a hard place (his dying parish).

It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.  The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.


I think that if some women wear headcoverings only for the sacraments (confession, Eucharist) and for the rest service not, it is a legalistic beahaviour. Because they think they're, let's say, "worthy" (probably not proper word) to receive a sacrament only if they cover their's heads, althoguh for the rest of service/Liturgy and prayers they do not it.

p.s.: During this time we had several inquirers and catechumens. The women catechumens chose to and were granted a blessing to wear the headcovering.
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« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2013, 11:17:04 PM »

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
Huh
There was only one question, right?
Your response could be seen as answer to a question or as response to a request. It's not at all clear to me which one you're referring to.
The question.
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« Reply #165 on: February 11, 2013, 11:26:18 PM »

When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?
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« Reply #166 on: February 11, 2013, 11:30:33 PM »

When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?

Exactly.

And to claim that inquirers and catechumens are being legalistic and proud when they dare to wear head coverings is absolutely insane.

Those who issue these judgments are failing to heed Christ's command not to judge lest we ourselves be judged.

Actually those who claim that catechumens are being legalistic are the strident feminists and wimps who are Orthodox in name only. Sorry for judging the feminists and wimps, but I am saddened by this turn of events. It should not be happening in the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy and save us for we perish.
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« Reply #167 on: February 11, 2013, 11:42:06 PM »

It is sad that people judge women who cover.  It saddens me even more though to think that a priest of the Church would judge women unworthy to receive Holy Communion simply because they didn't cover their hair.   
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« Reply #168 on: February 11, 2013, 11:47:42 PM »

It is sad that people judge women who cover.  It saddens me even more though to think that a priest of the Church would judge women unworthy to receive Holy Communion simply because they didn't cover their hair.   
Is it because they think they don't have enough reverence for the Eucharist?
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« Reply #169 on: February 11, 2013, 11:53:46 PM »

It is sad that people judge women who cover.  It saddens me even more though to think that a priest of the Church would judge women unworthy to receive Holy Communion simply because they didn't cover their hair.   
Is it because they think they don't have enough reverence for the Eucharist?

I wouldn't know.  I was referring to Maria's earlier post where she was glorifying God after hearing that Punch's priest refused Holy Communion to women without head coverings. 
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« Reply #170 on: February 12, 2013, 12:24:11 AM »

Is the priest judging or simply guarding the chalice, as is his sacred duty? All of us approaching the chalice have a duty to prepare beforehand, male and female. And Orthodoxy is not a pick n' mix Pathway nor is public worship a fashion parade.

How is it some feel their autonomy must not be challenged, to follow Christ is a different path and has different values than that of the world, even from the beginning this has been so, surely?
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« Reply #171 on: February 12, 2013, 01:31:50 AM »

It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.

Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....
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« Reply #172 on: February 12, 2013, 01:37:27 AM »

It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.

Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.
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« Reply #173 on: February 12, 2013, 01:54:47 AM »

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.
No, we should not.
Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?
Huh
There was only one question, right?
Your response could be seen as answer to a question or as response to a request. It's not at all clear to me which one you're referring to.
The question.
Thank you. Now that wasn't so hard, was it? Wink
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« Reply #174 on: February 12, 2013, 02:00:14 AM »

When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?

Exactly.

And to claim that inquirers and catechumens are being legalistic and proud when they dare to wear head coverings is absolutely insane.

Those who issue these judgments are failing to heed Christ's command not to judge lest we ourselves be judged.

Actually those who claim that catechumens are being legalistic are the strident feminists and wimps who are Orthodox in name only. Sorry for judging the feminists and wimps, but I am saddened by this turn of events. It should not be happening in the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy and save us for we perish.
Don't you think that kind of comment extremely hypocritical? You remind us of Christ's command that we not judge, specifically as this governs how we relate to inquirers and catechumens who decide to wear head coverings, yet in the same post you judge as "Orthodox in name only" those who claim that these catechumens are being legalistic. If you're going to cite Christ's command that we not judge, Maria, then you had better practice what you preach.
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« Reply #175 on: February 12, 2013, 02:05:39 AM »

It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.

Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections
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« Reply #176 on: February 12, 2013, 02:34:21 AM »

When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?

Exactly.

And to claim that inquirers and catechumens are being legalistic and proud when they dare to wear head coverings is absolutely insane.

Those who issue these judgments are failing to heed Christ's command not to judge lest we ourselves be judged.

Actually those who claim that catechumens are being legalistic are the strident feminists and wimps who are Orthodox in name only. Sorry for judging the feminists and wimps, but I am saddened by this turn of events. It should not be happening in the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy and save us for we perish.
Don't you think that kind of comment extremely hypocritical? You remind us of Christ's command that we not judge, specifically as this governs how we relate to inquirers and catechumens who decide to wear head coverings, yet in the same post you judge as "Orthodox in name only" those who claim that these catechumens are being legalistic. If you're going to cite Christ's command that we not judge, Maria, then you had better practice what you preach.

PtA, I admit that I am a sinner in that post. I could have edited that part out, but then I would have been truly hypocritical.

Hopefully, those who are so quick to condemn catechumens for wearing headcoverings will see their own hypocritical spirit.

We are all hypocrites in need of Christ's mercy.

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« Reply #177 on: February 12, 2013, 02:40:31 AM »

It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.

Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections

How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?

And which catechumen would dare to approach the Chalice before being baptized or chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy? None that I know. So, why was this side topic brought up?
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« Reply #178 on: February 12, 2013, 02:52:14 AM »

It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.

Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections

How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?

That is legalism.  Wasn't that the lesson on the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

And which catechumen would dare to approach the Chalice before being baptized or chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy? None that I know. So, why was this side topic brought up?

I was responding to how Punch's Priest handles uncovered women.  Still pertains to covered vs. uncovered cathecumens (I wear a headcovering; I'm better than that woman who doesn't wear a headcovering).
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« Reply #179 on: February 12, 2013, 03:29:45 AM »

It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience.

Do any of us (including Priests and Hierarchs) examine his/her own disobedience?

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering.  He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them.  So, they obey just long enough to get what they want.  I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness).  The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections

How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?

That is legalism.  Wasn't that the lesson on the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

And which catechumen would dare to approach the Chalice before being baptized or chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy? None that I know. So, why was this side topic brought up?

I was responding to how Punch's Priest handles uncovered women.  Still pertains to covered vs. uncovered cathecumens (I wear a headcovering; I'm better than that woman who doesn't wear a headcovering).

See, now you are revealing your thoughts ...
Quote
(I wear a headcovering; I'm better than that woman who doesn't wear a headcovering).

This was not a kind statement, but a rudely judgmental statement.

I do not consider myself better than those women who do not cover themselves. Only Christ can read our hearts and know our thoughts. I try my best not to judge them, but it is very difficult when they have gossiped loudly about me during the Priest's sermon so that I could hear the gossip rather than Father. They were taunting me. And yes, I do pray that they will be saved. Lord have mercy.

And because of this, I have left the OCA as being in their company was not unto my salvation.

Now hear the following which was told to me by catechumens who wear headcovering. These catechmens are not legalistic by any means:

Many women who wear headcoverings do so much like horses wear blinders. It helps them to focus and to control their eyes. They wear it with humility and obedience, and most importantly, it helps them to pray.

So, now we are back on topic as these simple catechumens and converts do not wear the headcovering because they are legalistic, but because they love Christ God and the Orthodox Church and want to obey what was written in the Epistles and has always been taught in the Orthodox Church from the beginning -- that unchanging Faith that was given to us by Christ through the Apostles for all peoples and all times.

Sometimes, it is hot, and then the headcovering is very uncomfortable. I sweat and my hair gets wrecked, but I reflect on Christ and his sufferings. My sufferings are so little compared with what He went through for all of us. The ridicule I have received is so mild with what Christ had to suffer.

Those who follow Christ accept His Cross, and that includes ridicule from those who do not want to adhere to the teachings and traditions of the Holy Orthodox Church.
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Tags: head coverings 
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