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Author Topic: Popes Primacy before the Schism (quotes)  (Read 7293 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2009, 11:04:41 AM »

As to the flowery words to Pope Leo, they didn't impress the Fathers of Chalcedon, who approved the Tome of Leo AFTER 200 of them had examened it and JUDGED it Orthodox:i.e. they acclaim it Orthodox because Leo said so (as so many apologists of the Vatican would have it.  The letter of the Patriarchs to the Vatican in the 1800's points that out).  Pope Leo had intended that the Council acknowledge his Tome as its Definition: instead the Fathers wrote their own.

Just to add, on the Ibas thread the contrast between the close scrutiny of Leo's Tome at Chalcedon and the lack thereof of Ibas' letter to Mari the Persian (rectified at Constantinople II) came up:
Quote
The three chapters were the point in question; that is, respecting Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret’s writings against Cyril, and the letter of Ibas of Edessa to Maris the Persian.  They examined whether that letter had been approved in the Council of Chalcedon.  So much was admitted that it had been read there, and that Ibas, after anathematizing Nestorius, had been received by the holy Council.  Some contended that his person only was spared; others that his letter also was approved.  Thus inquiry was made at the fifth Council how the writings on the Faith were wont to be approved in former Councils.  The Acts of the third and fourth Council, those which we have mentioned above respecting the letter of St. Cyril and of St. Leo, were set forth.  Then the holy Council declared:  “It is plain, from what has been recited, in what manner the holy Councils are wont to approve what is brought before them.  For great as was the dignity of those holy men who wrote the letters recited, yet they did not approve their letters simply or without inquiry, nor without taking cognizance that they were in all things agreeable to the exposition and doctrine of the holy Fathers, with which they were compared.”  But the Acts proved that this course was not pursued in the case of the letter of Ibas; they inferred, therefore, most justly, that that letter had not been approved.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ii.html

That link actually vindicates that Pope Vigilius was convinced that Chalcedon had approved the letter and that it is thus in question whether or not it truly had. It does not simply take the word of the Second Council of Constantinople.

So yet more proof that Pope Vigilius didn't know what he was doing.  Your point?
[/quote]
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ialmisry
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« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2009, 07:18:31 PM »

Due to the ongoing debate on the Fourth Council, I by chance was reaquainted with a text I thought appropriate here.  It is from the "Life of Shenoute" by his disciple St. Besa.  St. Shenoute's writings were the examplar of Coptic literature, but his chief claim to fame was cracking his staff over Nestorius' head at the Council of Ephesus.  I one episode, "One day," Besa says, "our father Shenoute and our Lord Jesus were sitting down talking together" (a very common occurance according to the Vita) and the Bishop of Shmin came wishing to meet the abbot.  When Shenoute sent word that he was too busy to come to the bishop, the bishop got angry and threatened to excommunicate him for disobedience:

Quote
The servant went to our father [Shenouti] and said to him what the bishop had told him.  But my father smiled graciously with laughter and said: "See what this man of flesh and blood has said! Behold, here sitting with me is he who created heaven and earth! I will not go while I am with him." But the Savior said to my father: "O Shenoute, arise and go out to the bishop, lest he excommunicate you. Otherwise, I cannot let you enter [heaven] because of the covenant I made with Peter, saying 'What you will bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what you will loose on earth will be loosed in heaven' [Matthew 16:19].  When my father heard these words of the Savior, he arose, went out to the bishop and greeted him.

 Besa, Life of Shenoute 70-72 (trans. Bell). On the context of this story see Behlmer 1998, esp. pp. 353-354. Gaddis, There is No Crime for those who have Christ, p. 296
http://books.google.com/books?id=JGEibDA8el4C

Now this dates not only before the schism of East-West, and the Schism of Chalcedon, but nearly the Schism of Ephesus.  Now Shmin is just a town in southern Egypt, and the bishop there just a suffragan of Alexandria.  So it would seem to be odd if the Vatican's interpretation of Matthew 16:19 were the ancient one why this would be applied to a bishop far from Rome, in a land where St. Peter never founded any Church.  But it makes perfect sense from the Orthodox interpretation of Matthew 16:19, and indeed, according to "the Catholic Encyclopedia," the overwhelming consensus of the Fathers.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2009, 12:16:34 PM »

On another forum  police Roll Eyes police, someone (also named Ignatius) is shovling it:

Quote
1) St. Clement: The third successor to St. Peter restored deposed presbyters in the Church at Corinth (Greece), stating: “If anyone disobey the things which have been said by [the Holy Spirit] through us [i.e., Rome], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and no small danger” (Letter to the Corinthians [ca. 80/96 AD]).

2) St. Ignatius of Antioch singled out Rome for special honor, writing that it held the “presidency of love” (Letter to the Romans [ca. 105 AD]).

3) St. Irenaeus: ca. 200 AD]). Of course, nothing prevents a double meaning in the passage (i.e., the rock can also be seen as Peter’s confession), but the primary meaning is undoubtedly Peter himself.

Cool St. Clement of Alexandria refers to Peter as “the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples” (Who is the Rich Man that is Saved? [190/210 AD]).

9) The Letter of Clement to James (221 AD) refers to Peter as “the foundation of the Church.”

10) Origen wrote that Peter was “the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church” (Homilies on Exodus [after 244 AD]).

11) St. Cyprian wrote extensively about the Roman primacy, saying that “false faith can have no access” to Rome and that “sacerdotal unity has its source [in] the chair of Peter” (Letter [252 AD]).

12) Poem Against the Marcionites (267 AD): “In this chair in which he himself had sat, Peter, in mighty Rome, commanded Linus, the first elected, to sit down . . .”

13) St. Peter of Alexandria referred to Peter as “the first chosen of the Apostles” (Penance [306 AD]).

14) As far as I know, every bishop of Rome up through Constantine’s legalization of Christianity in 313 AD was martyred for the faith. In other words, to be consecrated bishop of Rome was tantamount to a death sentence for Christianity’s first three centuries. After Constantine, the popes were able to come out of hiding in the catacombs and fully become what Christ intended. Relatedly, the United States today looks nothing like it did in 1787, when it ratified our Constitution. Should it come as a surprise that the Catholic Church looked different in the 5th century than in the 1st century? Certainly not.

15) Pope St. Julius rebuked Alexandria for deposing St. Athanasius without first consulting Rome, grounding his rebuke on an earlier custom of the church. He assumed he had the authority to reopen cases which had already been closed in other apostolic sees (Letter [341 AD]).

16) St. Athanasius: “When I left Alexandria, I did not go to your brother’s headquarters, or to any other persons, but only to Rome; and having my case before the Church, I spent my time in the public worship” (Letter to Emperor Constantius).

17) Council of Sardica, canon 3 (342 AD): “But if any bishop loses the judgment in some case, and still believes that he has not a bad but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew, if it pleases Your Charities, let us honor the memory of the Apostle Peter, by having those who gave the judgment write to Julius, Bishop of Rome, so that, if it seem proper, he may himself send arbiters, and judgment may be made again by the bishops of a neighboring province.”

18) St. Ephraim wrote that Jesus made Peter “the foundation of the holy Church” (Homilies [351 AD]).

19) St. Cyril of Jerusalem stated that Peter was the “chief” and the “first and foremost of the Apostles” (Catechetical Lectures [ca. 350 AD]).

20) St. Hilary of Poitiers said that Peter was “the foundation of the Church” and wrote: “And you [Pope Julius], most dearly loved brother, though absent from us in body, were present in mind concordant, and will . . . For this will be seen to be best, and by far the most befitting thing, if to the head, that is to the see of the Apostle Peter, the priests of the Lord report from every one of the provinces” (Fragment 2 ex opere Historico [ex Epistle Sardic. Concil. Ad Julium [before 367 AD]).

21) St. Optatus observed that in “Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter” and explained that the true Church must always possess the chair of Peter and orthodox doctrine, which clearly entails that Rome could never abandon the orthodox faith (The Schism of the Donatists [367 AD]).

22) St. Epiphanius endorsed the Roman primacy (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies [375 AD]).

23) St. Basil the Great: “Nearly all the East is being agitated, right honorable father [Pope Damasus], by a terrible storm and tempest. The old heresy, sown by Arius the enemy of truth, has now boldly and unblushingly reappeared . . . I have looked upon the visit of your mercifulness as the only possible solution to our difficulties . . . I have been constrained to beseech you by letter and to be moved to help us . . . In this I am by no means making any novel request, but am only asking what has been customary in the case of men who, before our own day, were blessed and dear to God, and conspicuously in your own case” (Letter 70 [ca. 379 AD]).

24) St. Gregory Nazianzen wrote that Peter was the “rock” in Matthew 16:18 (Oration 26 [ca. 379 AD]).

25) St. Gregory of Nyssa wrote that Jesus built the Church on Peter (Oration on St. Stephen [ca. 395 AD]).

26) St. Jerome: “I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but Your Blessedness, that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails . . . Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord . . . I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to [Rome]” (Letter to Pope Damasus [379 AD]).

27) Pope St. Damasus: “The holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of the other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior [in Matthew 16:18-19] . . . The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it” (The Decree of Damasus [382 AD]).

28) Ambrosiaster: “Whereas the whole world is God’s, yet is the Church said to be His house, of which [Pope] Damasus is at this day the ruler” (Commentary on the Epistle of First Timothy [366-384 AD]).

29) Pope Siricius: “We – or rather, the blessed apostle Peter in us, who, as we trust, protects and keeps us in everything as the heirs of his government – bear the burdens of all these that are burdened” (385 AD).

30) St. John Chrysostom wrote that Christ entrusted His “sheep” (i.e., Christians) “to Peter and his successors” (The Priesthood [ca. 386 AD]).

31) St. Ambrose: “They [the Novatians] have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven even in the Church” (Penance [388 AD]).

32) St. Augustine: due to the authority of Rome]; would that the error too might sometime be at an end!” (Sermons [inter 391 – 430 AD]).

33) Pope St. Innocent: “In seeking the things of God, . . . following the examples of ancient tradition, . . . you have strengthened . . . the vigor of your religion with true reason, for you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us, and have shown that you know what is owed to the Apostolic See, if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the Apostle himself from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have merged . . .They did not regard anything as finished, even though it was the concern of distant and remote provinces, until it had come to the notice of this See, so that what was a just pronouncement might be confirmed by the total authority of this See” (Letter to the Council of Carthage [417 AD]).

34) St. Cyril of Alexandria wrote to Pope Celestine asking him to make a ruling on the orthodoxy of Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople: “God requires us to be vigilant in these matters and the ancient customs of the Churches persuades that we should communicate with your Holiness [in Rome]. We do not openly and publicly break off communion with [Nestorius] before communicating these things to your Piety. Deign therefore to declare what seems to you right; and whether one must remain still in communion with him, or ought it to be proclaimed publicly that no one communicated with one who professes to teach such errors?” (Letter to Pope Celestine [ca. 431 AD]).

35) In response, Pope Celestine urged Cyril to act with Rome’s authority in condemning Nestorius “assuring to yourself the authority of our See [Rome] and using our stead and place, you will execute this sentence with the utmost severity” (Letter [ca. 431 AD]).

36) Nestorius, deposed at the Council of Ephesus, later wrote bitterly: “Who was judge? Cyril. Who was accuser? Cyril. Who was Bishop of Rome? Cyril. Cyril was everything.” In his eyes, Cyril had arrogated to himself the authority and prerogatives of the Pope himself.

37) Council of Ephesus (431 AD): The legate of Pope Celestine came to “ratify [the Council’s] determination” in the name of the Pope, stating “There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod.” (Acts of Council, Session 3).

38) St. Peter Chrysologus: “We exhort you in every respect, humble brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the Most Blessed Pope of the City of Rome; for Blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the Bishop of the City of Rome” (Letter to Eutyches [a monophysite] [449 AD]).

39) Pope St. Leo the Great: “Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed Apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others. From this formality there arose also a distinction among bishops, and by a great arrangement it was provided that no one should arrogate everything to himself, but in individual provinces there should be individual bishops whose opinions among their brothers should be first; and again, certain others, established in larger cities, were to accept a greater responsibility. Through them the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head” (Letter of Pope Leo I to Anastasius, Bishop of Thessalonica [ca. 446 AD]).

40) Council of Chalcedon (451 AD): “After the reading of the foregoing epistle [The Tome of Pope Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: ‘This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the apostles! So we all believe! Thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo! . . . This is the true faith! Those of us who are orthodox thus believe! This is the faith of the Fathers! . . . Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present and most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus, the bishop of Alexandria following Cyril’s death] of the episcopate” (Acts of the Council, Sessions 2 and 3).

41) Theodoret: “This most holy See [Rome] has preserved the supremacy over all Churches on the earth, for one especial reason among many others; to wit, that it has remained intact from the defilement of heresy. No one has ever sat on that Chair, who has taught heretical doctrine; rather that See has ever preserved unstained the Apostolic grace” (Epistle 116 to Renatus [before 466 AD]).

42) Pope St. Gregory the Great: “Your most sweet holiness, [Eulogius, bishop of Alexandria], has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors. And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy . . . I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to me about Peter’s chair, who occupies Peter’s chair. And, though special honor to myself in no wise delights me . . . who can be ignorant that holy Church has been made firm in the solidity of the prince of the apostles” (Letter to Eulogius [597 AD]).

The original context was a thread on how both the Vatican and the Evangelicals have fallen off the boat. It has a number of googy statements, like we can't hold an Ecumenical Council so we admit the Vatican is supreme, blah blah blah (tell that to the meeting on Cyprus) I might address as we go along. If I do, I'll paraphrase (the arguments aren't new) although the poster (who I believe posts here) might recognize his work.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2009, 11:44:23 AM »

A deceptive and insulting post against St. Dioscorus was moved to the private EO/OO discussion forum.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 11:44:49 AM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2009, 06:06:16 PM »

Is is possible that a lot of these quotes that support papal supremacy are forgeries? I know this was discussed at the very beginning of the thread, but I've been trying to learn more about the pseudo-Isadore forgeries. Is it possible that the commonly used quote by St. Maximus was forged? Or is it even possible to know that for a fact?
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