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Author Topic: Universal Jurisdiction  (Read 1900 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ivan Putovati
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« on: December 08, 2008, 08:53:31 PM »

CIX!

Can anyone please recommend some Orthodox books and essays that counter the claim of universal jurisdiction by the Pope of Rome? Thank you!
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 08:59:29 PM »

CIX!

Can anyone please recommend some Orthodox books and essays that counter the claim of universal jurisdiction by the Pope of Rome? Thank you!


"Popes and Patriarchs: An Orthodox Perspective on Roman Catholic Claims" by Michael Whelton
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 09:32:21 PM »

CIX!

Can anyone please recommend some Orthodox books and essays that counter the claim of universal jurisdiction by the Pope of Rome? Thank you!

"The Primacy of Peter" Fr. Schmemann, ed.  It was available (most of it at least) on google books, but I can't find it now.

To repost something on this subject:

Quote
When he was Orthodox. We still would "follow" him, if he followed the Fathers. Let him confess the Orthodox Faith, and he shall be first.

St. Symeon of Thessalonica (15th cent., after the sack of Constantinople) writes:

One should not contradict the Latins when they say that the Bishop of Rome is the first. This primacy is not harmful to the Church. Let them only prove his faithfulness to the faith of Peter and to that of the successors of Peter. If it is so, let him enjoy all the privileges of pontiff ... Let the Bishop of Rome be succesor of the orthodoxy of Sylvester and Agatho, of Leo, Liberius, Martin and Gregory, then we also will call him Apostolic and first among other bishops; then we also will obey him, not only as Peter, but as the Savior Himself

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...esult#PPA86,M1
p. 86

When the pope of Rome 4 centuries latter wrote a letter addressed to the Orthodox Faithful in an attempt to go over the Patriarchs heads, the Patriarchs responded:

In a measure the aggressions of the later Popes in their own persons had ceased, and were carried on only by means of missionaries. But lately, Pius IX., becoming Bishop of Rome and proclaimed Pope in 1847, published on the sixth of January, in this present year, an Encyclical Letter addressed to the Easterns, consisting of twelve pages in the Greek version, which his emissary has disseminated, like a plague coming from without, within our Orthodox Fold...Usurping as his own possession the Catholic Church of Christ, by occupancy, as he boasts, of the Episcopal Throne of St. Peter, he desires to deceive the more simple into apostasy from Orthodoxy, choosing for the basis of all theological instruction these paradoxical words (p. 10, 1.29): "nor is there any reason why ye refuse a return to the true Church and Communion with this my holy Throne"...As to the supremacy, since we are not setting forth a treatise, let the same great Basil present the matter in a f'ew words, "I preferred to address myself to Him who is Head over them."..For all this we have esteemed it our paternal and brotherly need, and a sacred duty, by our present admonition to confirm you in the Orthodoxy you hold from your forefathers, and at the same time point out the emptiness of the syllogisms of the Bishop of Rome, of which he is manifestly himself aware. For not from his Apostolic Confession does he glorify his Throne, but from his Apostolic Throne seeks to establish his dignity, and from his dignity, his Confession. The truth is the other way...But, finally, his Holiness says (p. ix. l.12) that the fourth Ecumenical Council (which by mistake he quite transfers from Chalcedon to Carthage), when it read the epistle of Pope Leo I, cried out, "Peter has thus spoken by Leo." It was so indeed. But his Holiness ought not to overlook how, and after what examination, our fathers cried out, as they did, in praise of Leo...Of more than six hundred fathers assembled in the Counci1 of Chalcedon, about two hundred of the wisest were appointed by the Council to examine both as to language and sense the said epistle of Leo; nor only so, but to give in writing and with their signatures their own judgment upon it, whether it were orthodox or not...And thus all in succession: "The epistle corresponds," "the epistle is consonant,"the epistle agrees in sense," and the like. After such great and very severe scrutiny in comparing it with former holy Councils, and a full conviction of the correctness of the meaning, and not merely because it was the epistle of the Pope, they cried aloud, ungrudgingly, the exclamation on which his Holiness now vaunts himself: But if his Holiness had sent us statements concordant and in unison with the seven holy Ecumenical Councils, instead of boasting of the piety of his predecessors lauded by our predecessors and fathers in an Ecumenical Council, he might justly have gloried in his own orthodoxy, declaring his own goodness instead of that of his fathers. Therefore let his Holiness be assured, that if, even now, he will write us such things as two hundred fathers on investigation and inquiry shall find consonant and agreeing with the said former Councils, then, we say, he shall hear from us sinners today, not only, "Peter has so spoken," or anything of like honor, but this also, "Let the holy hand be kissed which has wiped away the tears of the Catholic Church."

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 09:34:43 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 11:56:04 PM »

John Meyendorff:  The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church

http://www.amazon.com/Primacy-Peter-Essays-Ecclesiology-Church/dp/0881411256/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228794870&sr=8-5

Editorial Reviews
Product Description

In considering the issue which has divided Christians in the past and still divides them today, a group of Orthodox theologians from different theological perspectives reflect upon the scriptural passages which single out Peter among the disciples of Jesus. Koulomzine ("Peter's Place in the Primitive Church") and Kesich ("Peter's Primacy in the New Testament and the Early Tradition"), as exegetes, read the passages in the light of contemporary New Testament research. John Meyendorff ("St Peter in Byzantine Theology") looks at the history of exegesis: how were these passages read at the time when East and West split, quarrelling about the issue of authority in the Church? Finally, Schmemann ("The Idea of Primacy in Orthodox Ecclesiology") and Afanassieff ("The Church Which Presides in Love") look at the meaning of "primacy" as a permanent, through changing, factor of "catholic" ecclesiology.

At a time when an ecumenical reconciliation between Rome and Eastern Christianity appears possible'but when new tensions (or are they actually the old ones?) are surging again'these studies set forth the Orthodox position of the primacy of Peter.

CONTRIBUTORS: John Meyendorff is dean and professor of church history and patristics at St Vladimir's Seminary; Alexander Schmemann (†1983) was dean of St Vladimir's Seminary and taught church history and liturgical theology (1962-1983); Nicholas Afanassieff (†1966) was a professor of canon law and church history at the Orthodox Theological Institute in Paris; Nicholas Koulomzine is a professor of New Testament at the Orthodox Theological Institute in Paris; Veselin Kesich is professor emeritus of New Testament at St Vladimir's Seminary.
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Ivan Putovati
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2008, 08:36:13 PM »

CIX!

Can anyone please recommend some Orthodox books and essays that counter the claim of universal jurisdiction by the Pope of Rome? Thank you!


"Popes and Patriarchs: An Orthodox Perspective on Roman Catholic Claims" by Michael Whelton

Thanks. I read half of it today. Very interesting. Any other recommendations?
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Ivan Putovati
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2008, 08:37:29 PM »

John Meyendorff:  The Primacy of Peter:  Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church

http://www.amazon.com/Primacy-Peter-Essays-Ecclesiology-Church/dp/0881411256/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228794870&sr=8-5

Editorial Reviews
Product Description

In considering the issue which has divided Christians in the past and still divides them today, a group of Orthodox theologians from different theological perspectives reflect upon the scriptural passages which single out Peter among the disciples of Jesus. Koulomzine ("Peter's Place in the Primitive Church") and Kesich ("Peter's Primacy in the New Testament and the Early Tradition"), as exegetes, read the passages in the light of contemporary New Testament research. John Meyendorff ("St Peter in Byzantine Theology") looks at the history of exegesis: how were these passages read at the time when East and West split, quarrelling about the issue of authority in the Church? Finally, Schmemann ("The Idea of Primacy in Orthodox Ecclesiology") and Afanassieff ("The Church Which Presides in Love") look at the meaning of "primacy" as a permanent, through changing, factor of "catholic" ecclesiology.

At a time when an ecumenical reconciliation between Rome and Eastern Christianity appears possible'but when new tensions (or are they actually the old ones?) are surging again'these studies set forth the Orthodox position of the primacy of Peter.

CONTRIBUTORS: John Meyendorff is dean and professor of church history and patristics at St Vladimir's Seminary; Alexander Schmemann (†1983) was dean of St Vladimir's Seminary and taught church history and liturgical theology (1962-1983); Nicholas Afanassieff (†1966) was a professor of canon law and church history at the Orthodox Theological Institute in Paris; Nicholas Koulomzine is a professor of New Testament at the Orthodox Theological Institute in Paris; Veselin Kesich is professor emeritus of New Testament at St Vladimir's Seminary.


Thanks Scamandrius.  I read this a few months ago. Very good.
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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2008, 10:48:55 AM »

Welcome Ivan Putovati  to the Convert Issues Forum. I hope that we will be able to provide the answers that you need now and in the future in relationship to your convert issues.

Thomas
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Ivan Putovati
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 09:30:04 PM »

Thank you, Thomas.
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 11:48:21 PM »

It is also worth looking through the liturgical text of the Vigil service (Vespers and Matins) for the feast of Apostles Peter and Paul. The importance of liturgical texts are that they represent the consensus patrum. Individual Fathers may differ in their views on any particular subject, but what is read, said and sung in church is what the whole Orthodox Church espouses and proclaims. You should find this post useful:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14723.msg230684.html#msg230684
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 12:01:26 AM »

Fwiw, while I haven't read it yet, in his book The Challenge of our Past: Studies in Orthodox Canon Law and Church, John Erikson has an essay titled "Collegiality and Primacy in Orthodox Ecclesiology". Not exactly what you're looking for, but it might be something to look into anyway (an online version is available here).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 12:06:04 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 06:45:16 AM »

It is also worth looking through the liturgical text of the Vigil service (Vespers and Matins) for the feast of Apostles Peter and Paul. The importance of liturgical texts are that they represent the consensus patrum. Individual Fathers may differ in their views on any particular subject, but what is read, said and sung in church is what the whole Orthodox Church espouses and proclaims. You should find this post useful:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14723.msg230684.html#msg230684

---

Great idea! Thanks.

I will look there.
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