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Author Topic: Headcovering - not meant as a "hot topic" or to be devisive  (Read 14914 times) Average Rating: 0
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Carole
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« on: December 03, 2008, 12:05:46 PM »

Here's an "odd" question (I know - what other type do I ask?).

As a Catholic I feel more comfortable wearing a head covering of some sort during the Mass (whether I am attending the Novus Ordo or the Traditional Latin Mass).  It is, for me at least a matter of personal preference (piety?) and not a stern "All women must/should do this." kind of thing.  But I have noticed that in the Orthodox parishes I have visited no one does it (well, in the most recent parish two Ethiopian women do cover their heads).  So I have not done so.  I feel a bit strange/uncomfortable being uncovered.  Yet, at the same time, as a visitor to the parish and a non-Orthodox visitor at that I would feel even more uncomfortable by doing something to make myself stand out (any more than I already do).

Do many women wear head coverings any more?  If they do does it create tension in the parish?  Is it a matter of personal devotion/practice?
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Carole
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2008, 12:31:13 PM »

I wear one.  My home church only a few wear one, at my home-away-from-home church everyone does.
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2008, 12:34:09 PM »

I wear one.  My home church only a few wear one, at my home-away-from-home church everyone does.

Thanks Lily.  I suppose I feel as though I stand out enough as it is (I only remember to make the sign of the cross the Orthodox way about 2/3 of the time, the rest of the time I'm either doing it like a Roman Catholic or I start out Roman and switch to the Orthodox manner ... I look like a spastic catcher signaling the pitcher to throw me a fast ball).  Then there's the whole, "I don't know what any of the Greek means so I have a perpetually lost look on my face" issue.  I'm afraid if I throw anything else in there I'm going to look like a total idiot (rather than the partial idiot I look like now).
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Carole
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2008, 12:37:23 PM »

It varies from parish to parish.  In my OCA parish, about half of the women wear a head covering and there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to who does and who doesn't.  To me, if you feel more comfortable wearing a head covering, go for it.  If you feel it makes you stick out in the crowd, you can always opt for a knit cap or something that doesn't draw much attention.  I go back and forth between a small handkerchief, a full scarf, and a knit cap (and it's usually based on which one I happened to leave in the car last time).
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2008, 01:52:22 PM »

In my OCA parish about 25% of the women cover, myself included.  I started wearing a headcovering about 2 years into my becoming Orthodox (15 years of covering now).  Oddly, I went to a Roman Catholic funeral yesterday and I debated about wearing a covering or not.  I'm still not convinced in my heart that I didn't have some prideful reasons for doing so, but be that as it may, out of 300+ people at the funeral, I was the only one with a headcovering (and certainly not the nun in a business suit that sat in front of me).
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2008, 02:43:36 PM »

I wear a head covering. I would say about 15% of the women in our parish do also. Our priest "encourages" women to cover but it isn't an issue that he pushes. Our Kh. goes back and forth between wearing one and not wearing one. There are some women that always wear headcoverings. I don't do that. I wear stylish hats, scarves, and the like. I particularly like Israeli scarves.
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2008, 02:45:25 PM »

The first time I wore a head covering people actually noticed I am not white Roll Eyes We were in line for the coffee hour potluck and this guy across from me in line goes; "Wow, your not white are you?" We NW indians are pretty "pale" compared to our plains counterparts.
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Mickey
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2008, 03:17:59 PM »

Our priest encourages it, but only a few woman cover their heads--although all women must have their heads covered when receiving communion. I would like to see more priests talk about this Biblical concept and why it should be encouraged more in the U.S.

If you see films of Liturgies in other countries (especially Russia) you will see virtually all the women with head coverings.  At my parish, the Babas, matushka, and a few others, (my wife included) always have their heads covered.

It is a wonderfully humble and pious tradition.

Our first time in this parish, one of the parishioners, seeing my wife with her head scarf, asked her if she was born in America. I had to laugh.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 03:19:42 PM by Mickey » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2008, 03:27:23 PM »

Carole,

This is one of those subjects that comes up quite a bit at OC.net.  You might try clicking on the "head coverings" tag below to peruse a few of the other threads that also discuss this question.
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Carole
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 03:42:07 PM »

Carole,

This is one of those subjects that comes up quite a bit at OC.net.  You might try clicking on the "head coverings" tag below to peruse a few of the other threads that also discuss this question.

I have read those - unfortunately they are more of a "Should women cover?" debate.  I was trying to avoid the whole should/should not bit and just try to get a feel for if women in the Orthodox parishes do (as I said I've only ever seen two women do so, but my experience is very limited).  I was also trying to get a feel for how "out of place" I would look as a non-Orthodox visitor if I did. 

Generally speaking the whole should/shouldn't debate gives me a headache.  It gave me headaches as a Protestant and as a Catholic.  I expect the experience will be roughly the same in Orthodox discussions.  LOL
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Carole
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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 03:47:13 PM »

Generally speaking the whole should/shouldn't debate gives me a headache.  It gave me headaches as a Protestant and as a Catholic.  I expect the experience will be roughly the same in Orthodox discussions.  LOL

Naw! No headaches. St Paul recommended it. Do not worry about what other people think.  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 04:01:30 PM »

Generally speaking the whole should/shouldn't debate gives me a headache.  It gave me headaches as a Protestant and as a Catholic.  I expect the experience will be roughly the same in Orthodox discussions.  LOL

Naw! No headaches. St Paul recommended it. Do not worry about what other people think.  Smiley
But then, such simplistic answers that don't take into account such things as historical and societal context only end up raising more questions, which create more debate, which causes more headaches, and the cycle remains unbroken. Wink
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2008, 04:19:00 PM »

Generally speaking the whole should/shouldn't debate gives me a headache.  It gave me headaches as a Protestant and as a Catholic.  I expect the experience will be roughly the same in Orthodox discussions.  LOL

Naw! No headaches. St Paul recommended it. Do not worry about what other people think.  Smiley
But then, such simplistic answers that don't take into account such things as historical and societal context only end up raising more questions, which create more debate, which causes more headaches, and the cycle remains unbroken. Wink

Ouch!  I feel the headache coming.  Quick someone hand me a bottle of Excedrin. 
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Carole
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2008, 04:21:12 PM »

But then, such simplistic answers that don't take into account such things as historical and societal context only end up raising more questions, which create more debate, which causes more headaches, and the cycle remains unbroken.

Perhaps that is the case for you.

As a child, I remember that all (most) women covered their heads in the Latin Catholic Church. I also remember the beautiful Mass in Latin.  Then VII began to take hold and the head coverings came flying off as people began their strange interpretions of the councel. Secular humanism, women's liberation, political correctness--all contributed to the demise of the head coverings. I do not know if the same thing happened in holy Orthodoxy or if they just aped the Latin's behaviour.

But it really is quite simple. Look to the monasteries.  I have not yet been to an Orthodox monastery where a woman was permitted to have her head uncovered.  

Our most holy monasteries are the protectors of the faith.

It is simple. No headaches. It is a holy, humble and pious tradition.
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Carole
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 04:31:40 PM »

But then, such simplistic answers that don't take into account such things as historical and societal context only end up raising more questions, which create more debate, which causes more headaches, and the cycle remains unbroken.

Perhaps that is the case for you.

As a child, I remember that all (most) women covered their heads in the Latin Catholic Church. I also remember the beautiful Mass in Latin.  Then VII began to take hold and the head coverings came flying off as people began their strange interpretions of the councel. Secular humanism, women's liberation, political correctness--all contributed to the demise of the head coverings. I do not know if the same thing happened in holy Orthodoxy or if they just aped the Latin's behaviour.

But it really is quite simple. Look to the monasteries.  I have not yet been to an Orthodox monastery where a woman was permitted to have her head uncovered.  

Our most holy monasteries are the protectors of the faith.

It is simple. No headaches. It is a holy, humble and pious tradition.

I'm pretty sure that PtA was alluding to the fact that no matter how simple the topic appears to be it always becomes a really big deal (make that fight) among people with very strongly held and deeply divided opinions.  It is, sadly, never simple.
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 04:33:59 PM »

I'm pretty sure that PtA was alluding to the fact that no matter how simple the topic appears to be it always becomes a really big deal (make that fight) among people with very strongly held and deeply divided opinions.  It is, sadly, never simple.

Yes. I understand his point. But it does not have to be complicated or argumentative.

When we follow Tradition we have the opportunity to receive a blessing. When we discard a Tradition it is a lost opportunity.
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 04:39:58 PM »

I'm pretty sure that PtA was alluding to the fact that no matter how simple the topic appears to be it always becomes a really big deal (make that fight) among people with very strongly held and deeply divided opinions.  It is, sadly, never simple.

Yes. I understand his point. But it does not have to be complicated or argumentative.

When we follow Tradition we have the opportunity to receive a blessing. When we discard a Tradition it is a lost opportunity.

Oh boy ... and here we go with the kind of thing I was hoping to avoid.  Maybe we can agree to just let this thread die before it becomes a 5+  page dissertation on the topic?  I'm sorry I ever opened my mouth.   Undecided
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2008, 04:45:47 PM »

Oh boy ... and here we go with the kind of thing I was hoping to avoid.  Maybe we can agree to just let this thread die before it becomes a 5+  page dissertation on the topic?  I'm sorry I ever opened my mouth. 

What are you talking about? If you do not want to cover your head, and your priest is okay with it, then go for it. If you like to cover your head--God bless you. I am not here to write dissertations or to convince you of something.  Sad   Sheesh!

For anyone concerned, here is a good article on head covering. I apologize if it has already been posted elsewhere:

http://www.stjohndc.org/Russian/english.htm

On the Covering of Heads

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dis­honoureth her head. (I Corinthians 11:5).

 

Orthodox women, according to the words of the holy Apostle Paul, go to God's church with covered heads. For nearly two thousand years now, this custom has been kept by faithful women and has been handed down from generation to generation. It is a custom not only of the local churches, but also of the Universal Church, and, therefore ­ whether we be in a Greek, in a Serbian or Russian church ­ the women in the church have their heads covered. Not long ago, we happened to talk with a woman who had only just been in Russia. On a feast day, she went to church with her head uncovered, and when she came forward to venerate the Cross, the priest refused to give her the Cross. To her protests and excuses, that she had come from abroad, did not know the local customs and thought that it is necessary to cover one's head only for Communion, the priest replied to her that this is no excuse, that it is always necessary to have the head covered in church, and that he could not allow her to kiss the Holy Cross.

 

When taking into consideration the rule that women in church must cover their heads, it is completely incomprehensible why in many churches of the Russian diaspora one may see women with uncovered heads. The reasons and justifications for this are usually the following: kerchiefs are not in style; a kerchief spoils the hair­do; they say that there is no basis for covering the head; they ask why the Apostle Paul says that it is necessary to cover the head: why is it necessary for us women to cover the head, but not necessary for men? And sometimes it simply makes no difference to people what the Church directs, and even when given a well­grounded response to the foregoing arguments, they remain of the same opinion. Below, we shall try to respond briefly to all of these points.

 

Worldly fashions should not have any kind of influence on our Church life. If we were to give in to fashion, then our services would last fifteen minutes, we would sit in our churches and there would be the playing of musical instruments. Perhaps the head­ covering does spoil one's hair­do; but at the same time, for example, women wear high­heel shoes for the sake of beauty. It seems that one can endure discomfort for the sake of beauty, but to do so for the sake of God is impossible.

 

We find the basis for covering the head in Sacred Scripture itself, in the New Testament. The Most Holy Virgin Mary covered her head in the holy temple from her young years. According to tradition, her head­covering in the Jerusalem temple was light blue; therefore, on the feast days of the Theotokos our clergy wear light blue vestments. The Most Holy Theotokos wore a kerchief as a sign of her humility and submissiveness to God's will, which was manifested on the day of the Annunciation. In wearing a kerchief, the faithful woman recalls the image of her who was vouchsafed to carry the Saviour Himself. If the Most Pure and Most Blessed One herself had a covered head, shall we really consider the imitation of her as an abasement. Every outward action, accompanied by the correct Christian inward disposition, brings benefit to the soul. The Holy Church knows human nature and the effect of symbolism on man perfectly well. The Saviour frequently taught by means of parables and images, so that His teaching would be more understandable and intelligible to the people. And His Church teaches us by means of images and symbolic actions (the sign of the Cross, bows), in order to bring us closer to His Kingdom.

 

But why should only women cover their heads? ­ This is not entirely true ­ look at the hierarch; is not his head covered with a klobuk, and during the Divine services ­ with a miter? The right to wear a head­covering is considered an award and an honor by the clergy. However, women, in coming to church with a head­covering, should not take it off; whereas clergy and monastics should take of and put on theirs at various times during the course of the Divine services.

 

And so, we have no basis for breaking the Church's statute. When Greeks, converts or just Church people come to our church and see women in church with uncovered heads, this disturbs them and leads them into perplexity! And there is nothing we can say in reply. For a thousand years Russian Orthodox women have prayed in Russian churches with covered heads. Let it not be us who neglect this profound custom. Let us remember the words of the Lord that he that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much (Luke 16:10).

 

Parish Life, August 1994




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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2008, 06:13:44 PM »

Oh boy ... and here we go with the kind of thing I was hoping to avoid.  Maybe we can agree to just let this thread die before it becomes a 5+  page dissertation on the topic?  I'm sorry I ever opened my mouth. 

What are you talking about? If you do not want to cover your head, and your priest is okay with it, then go for it. If you like to cover your head--God bless you. I am not here to write dissertations or to convince you of something.  Sad   Sheesh!
Well, with the words you've chosen and the articles you've cited, it sure does look as if you're trying to convince Carole that head coverings are part of Tradition and that the refusal of many of today's women to wear them in church puts us on the path to apostasy. Wink
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2008, 08:52:59 PM »

My parish is very large and, (I am learning from this forum) quite traditional. I would say a woman without a headcovering is more the exception than the rule. It's almost impossible for me to imagine that other Orthodox churches don't practise this! The fact that the women all wear coverings was one of the things which attracted me to Orthodoxy in the first place.
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2008, 09:02:03 PM »

Do many women wear head coverings any more?  If they do does it create tension in the parish?  Is it a matter of personal devotion/practice?

I've never seen women wearing headcoverings in the two years I've been at my parish.  I did see one woman wearing one at a parish I visited recently.
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2008, 09:08:32 PM »

At my parish, about seventy-five percent of women (and girls) cover their heads.
At a parish I visit fairly often, same percentage.
At the parish I attended years ago, no one wore head coverings.
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2008, 09:21:12 PM »

I've been the "only headcovering woman" in several church situations.  Everybody gets used to it after a week or two, so it's no big deal.
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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2008, 11:18:33 AM »

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences.  It is interesting to see the variety of experiences.  I think part of the reason why this parish seems to be a bit different from your experiences is that while the parish is Greek Orthodox - in practice it is really "pan-Orthodox" as the variety of ethnic backgrounds is rather large for such a small parish.  Most likely due to the location, a very small city (less than 200,000) in the Deep South.

I am familiar with the reasons presented in the should/shouldn't debate, which is why I wanted to avoid it.  I was more interested in personal experiences - and I greatly appreciate your sharing.

On a more practical note - What types of head coverings do you all see most of the time?  For some reason in the more traditional Catholic circles the mantilla is the covering of choice (which makes little sense outside of a hispanic parish).  Are the head coverings in your Orthodox parishes more reflective of the ethnic backgrounds of the women? 
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2008, 12:05:07 PM »

On a more practical note - What types of head coverings do you all see most of the time?  For some reason in the more traditional Catholic circles the mantilla is the covering of choice (which makes little sense outside of a hispanic parish).  Are the head coverings in your Orthodox parishes more reflective of the ethnic backgrounds of the women? 

I've seen a couple of our Russian and Ukrainian parishioners wearing knit skullcaps, but nearly everyone else wears long scarves or kerchiefs.  My parish is OCA but we have everyone from Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Indians, Greeks, Russians, and some others I'm probably forgetting.  I'd say about half the parish are American converts, though. 
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2008, 12:24:33 PM »

and some others I'm probably forgetting. 
Yeah, like my Romanian godparents. Tongue
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« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2008, 12:39:09 PM »

I like mantillas.   Not many at my Middle Eastern parish wear headcoverings, of those who do, the Arabic women tend toward mantillas and the African women wear large scarves.  At the other church I visit on vacation, most women wear scarves babushka style, tho there is a lot of variance there (the church is not well heated, so we all pull out our pashminas in the winter and wear those over our heads!)

There are several reasons I prefer a mantilla:

 - I do like the look ( and I see no reason to be deliberately ugly in search of modesty.  Not implying that other headcoverings are ugly, just that being pretty should not disqualify a choice.).

- I find them more practical for me because I don't get overheated as easily, and they are less slippery on my head- the lace keeps it in place much better. 

-And I like the idea of a garment that I only wear for church, as opposed to a scarf I would wear anywhere.

I do use other headcoverings as the situation demands, but I like mantillas the best. 
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« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2008, 02:35:07 PM »

and some others I'm probably forgetting. 
Yeah, like my Romanian godparents. Tongue
Oh yeah, your Romanian godmother and Californian godfather.  Two foreign groups. Wink

(JK, OB/BV!)
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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2008, 02:36:50 PM »

I like mantillas, but I can't get them to stay on my head.  Between them slipping off naturally and my 1 year old yanking them off my head, that is.
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« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2008, 02:51:28 PM »

I like mantillas, but I can't get them to stay on my head.  Between them slipping off naturally and my 1 year old yanking them off my head, that is.

I had that problem too-I would either tie mine under the hair, or use a little clip. I'm not sure what you'd call the little clip, but it looks like a little claw, you pinch at the top and it opens. They make them really small and I found that held the manitlla on pretty well.   (bobby pins never seemed to work well for me).  I haven't worn one much lately though after I discovered a website that sells headscarves that tie. I wear those now since I've got a toddler too.  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2008, 03:10:29 PM »

Sort of an alligator clip?  Hmm, I'll have to try that.  I have some barrettes that are sort of that shape.  I've found the tied ones are more secure, too.  Smiley  I have a kerchief for Miss Caitlin but she's figured out how to take that off, too.
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« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2008, 03:24:59 PM »

Lily, I totally agree with you too! Mantillas are so beautiful, lacy, and feminine. In being obedient to Scriptural traditions, there should be no need to sacrifice beauty and femininity-au contraire, it should only accentuate these gracious qualitities!

Carole, most of the women in our church wear either a scarf tied bandana style, or a long rectangular scarf with ends hanging down the back, or a hermes style scarf tied a la grace kelly. The women of the first immigration waves generally wear hats. The recent immigrants and most of us converts wear the various styles of scarves. Some of the younger girls wear the now popular slouchy berets (I love them!). We keep a box of extra headscarves in the narthex in case someone forgot theirs (also a box of wrap-around skirts for those who arrived in trousers).

I love to explore art down the through the ages to get ideas for my clothing in general-headgear included! It's so much fun! There are some really great websites regarding headcoverings which have so many neat ideas. One of our very own Orthodox women has a beautiful site about unusual modest dress-I love to follow her styles.

Before I became Orthodox, I once attended a Plymouth Brethren church (only for one Sunday). The women all wore these gorgeous lace mantillas of various colours, but apparently, the same pattern! It was a beautiful sight to behold. I've only attended Catholic churches a few times, but never saw any women with covered heads there (but it was a very, very nice Catholic church. I actually felt rather at home there).
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« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2008, 04:19:19 PM »

Carole,

Don't be frustrated about the thread getting "hijacked"; internet fora are infamous for having that happen.  Plus, it's not your fault if folks decide to argue.  You didn't ask them to, and they didn't have to!

To continue the discussion at hand, though, my wife recently bought several headscarves she plans on wearing (she may take them back if her father brought her back any from his recent trip to India like she asked).  Before now, she hadn't worn them, but feels that it is a good, pious custom, so she's going to start.  Our parish has had a few of our ladies cover at some point in time, then discontinue covering.

I think it comes down to whether or not a convert wants to embrace the culture "as is" and only change things if there exists an obvious need to do so.  There is no obvious need to get rid of them -- indeed, there is a mentioning of it in Scripture, so that's in its favor -- but neither has it ever been treated as a dogmatic point of Faith.

Forgive the graphic nature of the following comments, but it does pertain to why, perhaps, St. Paul mentioned head coverings in the first place.

I remember an article that a friend of mine linked to on his blog which seemed to indicate that the cultural reason for covering the head was based on a connection made in Middle Eastern cultures between the hair on the head of a pubescent woman and her genetalia.  According to the article (you may read it HERE), the ancient world understood that, when a woman entered puberty, her hair began to serve as a sort of gland that aided in conception and so, just as one would cover the legs of the pubescent girl, one would also cover her head.

Any thoughts on the article?
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« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2008, 09:52:30 PM »

I totally agree with you too! Mantillas are so beautiful, lacy, and feminine. In being obedient to Scriptural traditions, there should be no need to sacrifice beauty and femininity-au contraire, it should only accentuate these gracious qualitities!

------------------------
Hmmmn, at risk of being accused of devisivness or jumping out of a frying pan into a fire; it seems to me that St. John Chrysostom (who resides in that category of being a Scriptual Traditionalist) would demur, but then he got himself axed and deported for daring to address such hot and devisive topics, didn't he? 

Somethings seem to keep coming back in circles, perhaps someone up there thinks its necessary?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2008, 10:02:47 AM »

My parish is very large and, (I am learning from this forum) quite traditional. I would say a woman without a headcovering is more the exception than the rule. It's almost impossible for me to imagine that other Orthodox churches don't practise this! The fact that the women all wear coverings was one of the things which attracted me to Orthodoxy in the first place.

Hooray!  laugh
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« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2008, 10:13:54 AM »

it sure does look as if you're trying to convince Carole that head coverings are part of Tradition and that the refusal of many of today's women to wear them in church puts us on the path to apostasy.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
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« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2008, 10:16:23 AM »

What types of head coverings do you all see most of the time?   

At our parish, mostly babushka style coverings.
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« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2008, 07:55:46 PM »

I had that problem too-I would either tie mine under the hair, or use a little clip. I'm not sure what you'd call the little clip, but it looks like a little claw, you pinch at the top and it opens. They make them really small and I found that held the manitlla on pretty well.   (bobby pins never seemed to work well for me).  I haven't worn one much lately though after I discovered a website that sells headscarves that tie. I wear those now since I've got a toddler too.  Grin

Could you send me the link to the website in a personal message? I have a small box of head coverings, but I'm always in the market for ones that stay on better instead of just distracting me from liturgy by sliding around. Thanks! Cheesy
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« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2008, 10:51:50 PM »

When the time comes for me to attend an Orthodox church, I'll wear a headcover, just because I think it's modest and I don't think I'd feel comfortable going to Mass without one. Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2008, 05:09:26 AM »

Both eastern catholic and eastern orthodox parishes I have been to where the majority of people are 1st generation immigrants the heads of women are covered. This would include a russian, a lebanese/syrian and a kerala/south Indian church.

Also in the Indian and Oriental Orthodox Churches I tend to see men and women sit on different sides of the Church (left/right) and not wear shoes either. I take my shoes off at the door. I also had to do this in a Sikh temple when I was lost and asking for directions.

So there are numerous traditions lost to those that say they are "Orthodox" in the USA.
No perfectly Orthodox church has ever existed right...
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"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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