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Author Topic: Can I become Orthodox if I know Invitro Fertilization is heretical?  (Read 6988 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2008, 11:05:16 PM »

I am no longer posting any further responses to this question for this forum.
I thank you for your views where they have been helpful. Especially from "Super Mensch" and PetertheAleut.

Let's see here. You ask a question where you will only accept one answer. What was the point??
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« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2008, 02:01:15 AM »

This latin man speaks the truth in this instance.
"We just haven't changed our teaching." Thank God this is one of the things that the Latin (papal) Catholic Church has not changed. Unlike for instance the Roman heterodox view of cremation. I desire to be in communion with the Church that does not change it's true teaching to demonic lies.
So, you have made yourself the ultimate arbiter of truth and heresy, just as I had feared. Roll Eyes

The bold arrogant questioning from some members of my motives is an insult to the Georgian Church and true Orthodoxy.
No one here is insulting the Georgian Orthodox Church or true Orthodoxy, so stop with the phony identifications.  We question your motives, and that's it.  Is there anything wrong with that?

I was hoping to find consistency in upholding the truth among Churches which claim to be Orthodox. Throughout history heresies have crept into the Church, with great prayer and struggle the heresies do not succeed because at least one part of the Church always believes in the truth.
So the problem of in vitro fertilization is the great heresy of our time. Roll Eyes  Would you put it on the same level as the great Triadological or Christological heresies of yesteryear?  Or even on the same level as the Branch Theory ecumenist heresies of the current day?
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« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2008, 03:12:53 AM »

A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has lost sight of his aim.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2008, 03:17:19 AM »

A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has lost sight of his aim.  Roll Eyes
LOL! laugh Tongue
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« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2008, 09:29:55 AM »

I am no longer posting any further responses to this question for this forum.
I thank you for your views where they have been helpful. Especially from "Super Mensch" and PetertheAleut.

Let's see here. You ask a question where you will only accept one answer. What was the point??

I read through the entire thread (seems a waste of time now) and all I am left with is a sense of disbelief that someone would come to a forum, ask such a loaded question, refuse to hear any answer other than the one he has decided beforehand is the only "correct" answer and then shut down all communication about his pet topic.

Seems rather a pointless waste of time both on the OP's part and on the part of all responding.  Huh
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« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2008, 10:20:54 AM »

Here lies the difference between us and Roman Catholics (the latter believe that all issues must be addressed by the Church and be given one, universal opinion of the Church),

Not all issues---just those issues of faith and morals that have yet been revealed to us. Artificial contraception was universally condemned by all Christian communions from the 1st century to the 20th. So this is not simply a matter of the RC Church getting over-dogmatic. We just haven't changed our teaching.

Thank you, Luberti, of course, you are right - not every single issue of life, just issues of faith and morals (e.g. no Catholic is under obligation to know the one universal opinion of the Church about which football teeam is better.Smiley  )
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« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2008, 10:43:05 PM »

Christopher, welcome to the forum!   Smiley
I don't think Christopher's talking about the product of IVF, an infant child, since a child is a child is a child, and all are sacred and worthy of love in God's eyes.  I think Christopher objects more to the process of IVF, which makes your reply somewhat irrelevant.

Quote from: Christopher
I need to understand how a father masturbating to conceive a child is relates to the theology and Orthodox Christianity.

Irrelevant?   Huh.  So, Christopher wants to know if a child conceived via self-abuse (e.g. masturbation to produce sperm for IVF) has any basis in Orthodox Theology?  I still think my answer is relevant because if the child is not being condemned, then the actions of the man inflicting self-abuse solely for IVF of his wife cannot be condemned.   Wink

We can debate having multiple children via IVF (e.g. McCaughey septuplets) and selective embryo destruction but that's beyond the scope of the OP.   Wink

I've heard of couples getting the "specimen" from a condemn with a hole in it (to satisfy Humanae Vitae).  Would that satisfy everyone?
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« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2008, 10:44:05 PM »

To my knowledge, if an Orthodox bishop ever blesses an in vitro fertilization, the permission would be granted ONLY on the basis that the sperm used in the fertilization came ONLY from the woman's husband and from no other, as also the ovum must come ONLY from the man's wife and from no other.  As I've heard Fr. John Breck, the OCA's leading scholar on matters of Orthodox bioethics, speak on this subject, the underlying Orthodox principle is that procreation must only be the fruit of a loving relationship between a man and his wife and cannot be dependent on any donation made by a third party, whether it be another man's sperm or another woman's womb.  Even then, the couple needs to be certified as unable to conceive through the natural means of marital relations for in vitro to be considered.  Of course, this is all based on the big IF--IF a bishop ever blesses this quite exceptional oikonomia.

What if the only option is adoption? Or, in the opposite example of the case you've described, there is no possibility for the man and wife to conceive a child... is it then sinful for a man and wife to give birth to a child from the sperm of a "third party"? What could be wrong with this?

Remember what happened to Onan?

Years ago (almost decades) there was a study on "third party" sperm donations, and it found that witout exception it took a fatal toll on the marital relationship.  One thing was that inevitably the wife through it in the husband's face that he couldn't get her pregnant, and someone else had to, with a crippling effect on the husband's role subsequently in the marriage.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 10:54:20 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2008, 10:45:18 PM »

Is that possible?

Yes, as of a year or two ago...though it's not yet being used for fertility treatments, it likely will be in the not so distant future.

Quote
What if the problem is an "inhospitable" womb for the woman involved? What options are available then?

Well, the artificial uterus is somewhat further away, though research over the last 8 years has been rather promising...we understand much more about the influence of the various hormones and growth factors necessary human gestation and in at least a few situations (such as testosterone levels) they could likely be administered more efficiently by an artificial system than a human mother's body is typically capable of. However, any such development is likely a decade or more beyond us today.

As for answering your question, I shall refrain at least on this forum. My intent was simply to provide a modern context for this discussion in light of recent medical advances. I'm sure everyone is quite aware of where I stand on issues of reproductive health.

Yes. Don't do it: the planet is overpopulated. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2008, 10:49:14 PM »

Here lies the difference between us and Roman Catholics (the latter believe that all issues must be addressed by the Church and be given one, universal opinion of the Church),

Not all issues---just those issues of faith and morals that have yet been revealed to us. Artificial contraception was universally condemned by all Christian communions from the 1st century to the 20th. So this is not simply a matter of the RC Church getting over-dogmatic. We just haven't changed our teaching.

Not so fast.  Those who condemned ABC also condemned NFP, which is the reason why Humanae Vitae is weak on the patristics of the matter.
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« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2008, 10:51:16 PM »

I am no longer posting any further responses to this question for this forum.
I thank you for your views where they have been helpful. Especially from "Super Mensch" and PetertheAleut.

As a point of clarity, do keep in mind that while I have a Masters in Orthodox Theology and am relatively familiar with the workings and internal politics of the Orthodox Church, I am an atheist and that surely influences my views.

I have to applaud your honesty.
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« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2008, 11:33:23 PM »

All I will say is this: my bishop allows it to me, and if I wanted to remain celibate I would've become a monk and/or gotten ordained instead of marrying my trophy wife. I really don't think this an issue that should be at the forefront when considering joining the Church.
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« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2008, 11:48:44 PM »

To my knowledge, if an Orthodox bishop ever blesses an in vitro fertilization, the permission would be granted ONLY on the basis that the sperm used in the fertilization came ONLY from the woman's husband and from no other, as also the ovum must come ONLY from the man's wife and from no other.  As I've heard Fr. John Breck, the OCA's leading scholar on matters of Orthodox bioethics, speak on this subject, the underlying Orthodox principle is that procreation must only be the fruit of a loving relationship between a man and his wife and cannot be dependent on any donation made by a third party, whether it be another man's sperm or another woman's womb.  Even then, the couple needs to be certified as unable to conceive through the natural means of marital relations for in vitro to be considered.  Of course, this is all based on the big IF--IF a bishop ever blesses this quite exceptional oikonomia.

What if the only option is adoption? Or, in the opposite example of the case you've described, there is no possibility for the man and wife to conceive a child... is it then sinful for a man and wife to give birth to a child from the sperm of a "third party"? What could be wrong with this?

Remember what happened to Onan?
So what does Onanism have to do with this discussion?
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« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2008, 12:21:47 AM »

To my knowledge, if an Orthodox bishop ever blesses an in vitro fertilization, the permission would be granted ONLY on the basis that the sperm used in the fertilization came ONLY from the woman's husband and from no other, as also the ovum must come ONLY from the man's wife and from no other.  As I've heard Fr. John Breck, the OCA's leading scholar on matters of Orthodox bioethics, speak on this subject, the underlying Orthodox principle is that procreation must only be the fruit of a loving relationship between a man and his wife and cannot be dependent on any donation made by a third party, whether it be another man's sperm or another woman's womb.  Even then, the couple needs to be certified as unable to conceive through the natural means of marital relations for in vitro to be considered.  Of course, this is all based on the big IF--IF a bishop ever blesses this quite exceptional oikonomia.

What if the only option is adoption? Or, in the opposite example of the case you've described, there is no possibility for the man and wife to conceive a child... is it then sinful for a man and wife to give birth to a child from the sperm of a "third party"? What could be wrong with this?

Remember what happened to Onan?
So what does Onanism have to do with this discussion?

See the bold face.

Yes, I know the Third Party in this case spilt it, and dad had to do the deed.  But the situation was less than ideal, and similar to the "what could be wrong with this?"

What if children of that "Third Party" marry?  It has happened with sperm donation the old fashioned way.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 12:26:02 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2008, 01:05:12 AM »

To my knowledge, if an Orthodox bishop ever blesses an in vitro fertilization, the permission would be granted ONLY on the basis that the sperm used in the fertilization came ONLY from the woman's husband and from no other, as also the ovum must come ONLY from the man's wife and from no other.  As I've heard Fr. John Breck, the OCA's leading scholar on matters of Orthodox bioethics, speak on this subject, the underlying Orthodox principle is that procreation must only be the fruit of a loving relationship between a man and his wife and cannot be dependent on any donation made by a third party, whether it be another man's sperm or another woman's womb.  Even then, the couple needs to be certified as unable to conceive through the natural means of marital relations for in vitro to be considered.  Of course, this is all based on the big IF--IF a bishop ever blesses this quite exceptional oikonomia.

What if the only option is adoption? Or, in the opposite example of the case you've described, there is no possibility for the man and wife to conceive a child... is it then sinful for a man and wife to give birth to a child from the sperm of a "third party"? What could be wrong with this?

Remember what happened to Onan?
So what does Onanism have to do with this discussion?

See the bold face.

Yes, I know the Third Party in this case spilt it, and dad had to do the deed.  But the situation was less than ideal, and similar to the "what could be wrong with this?"

What if children of that "Third Party" marry?  It has happened with sperm donation the old fashioned way.
You're actually speaking of the Levirate marriage practice, wherein a man would marry his elder brother's widow, in the event she did not bear him a child before he died, so that the elder brother would have a child to inherit his estate.  We see in Genesis 38:1-12 that God actually commanded Onan to do this for his brother, so his sin was not that he donated sperm as a "third party" but that he spilled his seed on the ground after God had commanded him to "donate" it to his brother's widow.
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« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2008, 04:54:35 AM »

I thank you for your views where they have been helpful. Especially from "Super Mensch" and PetertheAleut.

Can I request a username change for greekischristian aka Orson Welles the former lover of Betty Dodson at which I request we sneer at you with the above label? Moderators can you make this happen? Aka Good Times... I chuckled, I smirked now I beg Please.
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« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2008, 09:55:02 AM »

I thank you for your views where they have been helpful. Especially from "Super Mensch" and PetertheAleut.

Can I request a username change for greekischristian aka Orson Welles the former lover of Betty Dodson at which I request we sneer at you with the above label? Moderators can you make this happen? Aka Good Times... I chuckled, I smirked now I beg Please.

Is this supposed to be some kind of ad hominem?  Why would we want to support any sneering at anyone?  Does that somehow make us more righteous than the person at whom we're sneering?
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« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2008, 10:43:27 AM »

I thank you for your views where they have been helpful. Especially from "Super Mensch" and PetertheAleut.

Can I request a username change for greekischristian aka Orson Welles the former lover of Betty Dodson at which I request we sneer at you with the above label? Moderators can you make this happen? Aka Good Times... I chuckled, I smirked now I beg Please.


He's a human being with an immortal soul (whether he believes that or not) and he sticks around here for some reason so we are not going to chase him off in case somehow by God's grace he can be converted (and even if he doesn't we will still love him).  He doesn't get any special treatment and has been moderated but he will be treated with respect.
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« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2008, 12:06:29 PM »

I thank you for your views where they have been helpful. Especially from "Super Mensch" and PetertheAleut.

Can I request a username change for greekischristian aka Orson Welles the former lover of Betty Dodson at which I request we sneer at you with the above label? Moderators can you make this happen? Aka Good Times... I chuckled, I smirked now I beg Please.


He's a human being with an immortal soul (whether he believes that or not) and he sticks around here for some reason so we are not going to chase him off in case somehow by God's grace he can be converted (and even if he doesn't we will still love him).  He doesn't get any special treatment and has been moderated but he will be treated with respect.
Is that what the Orthodox teach today. That the soul is immortal? I consider GIC a Christian with doubts. I think all Christians have some degree of doubt. Otherwise faith wouldn't be needed. If Christ was here today, faith wouldn't be an issue. Faith would be 100% realized in Christ. I believe GIC is going through a metamorphosis from a platonic to a existential view of life. which is btw the correct view. He just hasn't sorted everything out complete yet and that is where his turmoil lies.
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« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2008, 12:21:22 PM »

To my knowledge, if an Orthodox bishop ever blesses an in vitro fertilization, the permission would be granted ONLY on the basis that the sperm used in the fertilization came ONLY from the woman's husband and from no other, as also the ovum must come ONLY from the man's wife and from no other.  As I've heard Fr. John Breck, the OCA's leading scholar on matters of Orthodox bioethics, speak on this subject, the underlying Orthodox principle is that procreation must only be the fruit of a loving relationship between a man and his wife and cannot be dependent on any donation made by a third party, whether it be another man's sperm or another woman's womb.  Even then, the couple needs to be certified as unable to conceive through the natural means of marital relations for in vitro to be considered.  Of course, this is all based on the big IF--IF a bishop ever blesses this quite exceptional oikonomia.

What if the only option is adoption? Or, in the opposite example of the case you've described, there is no possibility for the man and wife to conceive a child... is it then sinful for a man and wife to give birth to a child from the sperm of a "third party"? What could be wrong with this?

Remember what happened to Onan?
So what does Onanism have to do with this discussion?

See the bold face.

Yes, I know the Third Party in this case spilt it, and dad had to do the deed.  But the situation was less than ideal, and similar to the "what could be wrong with this?"

What if children of that "Third Party" marry?  It has happened with sperm donation the old fashioned way.
You're actually speaking of the Levirate marriage practice, wherein a man would marry his elder brother's widow, in the event she did not bear him a child before he died, so that the elder brother would have a child to inherit his estate.  We see in Genesis 38:1-12 that God actually commanded Onan to do this for his brother, so his sin was not that he donated sperm as a "third party" but that he spilled his seed on the ground after God had commanded him to "donate" it to his brother's widow.

As the boldface shows, I am aware of the circumstances.  Doesn't change anything, as I put that down with the command to kill all the Canaanites, the murder/abduction of wives for the Benjamites, the command to send aware the non-Hebrew wives and their children by Ezra, etc.etc.etc.

The fact remains, that Onan did it for a reason: He knew the child would not be his.  So I will reiterate, going into such situations is not a good idea, from which the harm springs.
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« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2008, 12:24:20 PM »


Is that what the Orthodox teach today. That the soul is immortal? I consider GIC a Christian with doubts. I think all Christians have some degree of doubt. Otherwise faith wouldn't be needed. If Christ was here today, faith wouldn't be an issue. Faith would be 100% realized in Christ. I believe GIC is going through a metamorphosis from a platonic to a existential view of life. which is btw the correct view. He just hasn't sorted everything out complete yet and that is where his turmoil lies.

I will not engage you on your soul-is-not-immortal debate. That was not the point of my post.
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« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2008, 01:20:36 PM »


Is that what the Orthodox teach today. That the soul is immortal? I consider GIC a Christian with doubts. I think all Christians have some degree of doubt. Otherwise faith wouldn't be needed. If Christ was here today, faith wouldn't be an issue. Faith would be 100% realized in Christ. I believe GIC is going through a metamorphosis from a platonic to a existential view of life. which is btw the correct view. He just hasn't sorted everything out complete yet and that is where his turmoil lies.

I will not engage you on your soul-is-not-immortal debate. That was not the point of my post.
Nor, Demetrios, is it the topic of this thread.
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« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2008, 02:52:22 PM »

In response to my sneer it was intended to be a euphemism as GreekisChristian has an oxymoronic ring to it. Supermensch would just be plain ironic as he in not jewish who saves the day when people tell him that they don't need to be saved.
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« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2008, 04:38:32 PM »

alexp4uni, mensch is not necessarily Yiddish. It's actually German.
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« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2008, 04:55:23 PM »

In response to my sneer it was intended to be a euphemism as GreekisChristian has an oxymoronic ring to it. Supermensch would just be plain ironic as he in not jewish who saves the day when people tell him that they don't need to be saved.

As LBK pointed out, Mensch is really just a German word and I think GiC is using it in the context of the Nietzschian "UberMensch", or "Superman".
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« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2008, 05:11:45 PM »

point taken
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« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2008, 05:35:49 PM »

In response to my sneer it was intended to be a euphemism as GreekisChristian has an oxymoronic ring to it. Supermensch would just be plain ironic as he in not jewish who saves the day when people tell him that they don't need to be saved.

As LBK pointed out, Mensch is really just a German word and I think GiC is using it in the context of the Nietzschian "UberMensch", or "Superman".

Actually ozgeorge is the one who gave me the avatar...thought 'supermensch' was rather comical, so I've kept it. Plus, it'll probably get me in less trouble here than the picture of a scantily clad Marisa Miller he replaced with it.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 05:40:02 PM by greekischristian » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2008, 06:00:27 PM »

In response to my sneer it was intended to be a euphemism as GreekisChristian has an oxymoronic ring to it. Supermensch would just be plain ironic as he in not jewish who saves the day when people tell him that they don't need to be saved.

As LBK pointed out, Mensch is really just a German word and I think GiC is using it in the context of the Nietzschian "UberMensch", or "Superman".

Actually ozgeorge is the one who gave me the avatar...thought 'supermensch' was rather comical, so I've kept it. Plus, it'll probably get me in less trouble here than the picture of a scantily clad Marisa Miller he replaced with it.

I can't find the post and the picture was deleted due to the server crash. But the mysterious GiC was apparently the star in Citzen Kane. Or I think it was just Celebrity Profile pic none the less



Will you drop the snowglobe? Gic erghh Rosebud...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 06:21:31 PM by alexp4uni » Logged
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