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HollyR
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« on: September 11, 2003, 03:13:56 PM »

I am new here.  I am currently in the process of converting to the catholic church.  I have been a regular over on "Defenders of catholic faith" website for awhile now and looking into the catholic church for about 2 years.  I am from the southern baptist church.  I have never heard of orthodox christianity until recently when I stumbled onto a post by someone on our other board who mentioned having been on this forum.  

Can someone tell me what the difference is b/t orthodox and catholic?  I realize that is probably a big question but could you give me any basic idea.  I have never evgn heard much about it.  Could you give me maybe the big differences at least?  I know that the orthodox church was the first to split off, right?  What keeps them from being catholic? Do you disagree on any theological issues like the big ones such as Mary, eucharist, confession, icons etc?
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2003, 03:24:03 PM »

Glory to God!

HollyR -- There are many here more learned than I, but as someone who spent some time comparing the two (RCC and EO) just about 2 years ago myself, I thought I'd be amongst the first to try and answer your questions.

As for the split between the two, you may wish to do some reading on The Great Schism from a few different sources; the EO Church believes that the RCC split from us, although the RCC may teach it the other way around.  You'll want to read about the differences that lead up to the split -- including the primacy of the Bishop of Rome and the filioque, which was added into the Creed by Rome without the convening of an Ecumencal Council.

In other words, we (Orthodox Chrisitians) believe that the filioque (...and the son...) was added illegitimately to the Creed by Rome.

The most obvious differences (coming from someone who is admitedly no theologian!) are these:  The Orthodox Church does not have -- the immaculate conception of Mary, infallibility of the Pope, indulgences, purgatory, individual guilt for original sin, holy days of obligation -- because these were added by the RCC after the Great Schism.

Orthodox DO partake of both the wine and bread at communion and we do follow the same fasting "schedule" that the early church followed.

As I mentioned, there are many here who can elaborate on what I've outlined, but these differences will get you started in answering your questions.

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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2003, 04:13:18 PM »

<surface>

Questions and answers on Orthodox and Catholic differences

Quote
The most obvious differences (coming from someone who is admitedly no theologian!) are these:  The Orthodox Church does not have -- the immaculate conception of Mary,

See linked page.

Quote
infallibility of the Pope,


Right.

Quote
indulgences,


Yes, but not sure if that's dogmatic or just a difference in culture/theological method. What compendia of Eastern Orthodox canon law there are - I'm thinking of St Nikodemos the Hagiorite's relatively recent (last few centuries) compilation The Rudder - AFAIK list lots of severe canonical penances for certain sins. Indulgences are just western Catholicism's application of that, substituting certain prayers for these.

Quote
purgatory,


Under that name it's a western Catholic concept but Orthodox de facto believe in it as they do pray for the dead - without an intermediate state for souls on their way to heaven, prayer for the dead is meaningless. Objections such as 'purgatory as a mini-hell is wrong' are nonissues, since such isn't Catholic doctrine either.

Quote
individual guilt for original sin,


That's a tough one! Take it the wrong way and it sounds Pelagian, like a denial of original sin. There is a difference in the way the two sides explain original sin but I don't know enough to get into it.

Quote
holy days of obligation

Orthodox do have such, only not using the western Catholic jargon 'holy day of obligation' - they are the 12 great feasts of the church calendar.

Quote
because these were added by the RCC after the Great Schism

Arguably true of the dogma about the Pope and also the development of the dogma about purgatory and maybe indulgences as well.

Quote
Orthodox DO partake of both the wine and bread at communion and we do follow the same fasting "schedule" that the early church followed.

Pretty much AFAIK but these are matters of discipline, not of faith, not of dogma.
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2003, 06:17:32 PM »


Quote
purgatory,


Under that name it's a western Catholic concept but Orthodox de facto believe in it as they do pray for the dead - without an intermediate state for souls on their way to heaven, prayer for the dead is meaningless. Objections such as 'purgatory as a mini-hell is wrong' are nonissues, since such isn't Catholic doctrine either.

That's one way of looking at it; certainly if one reads the work Eustratios Argenti by Timothy Ware, he will see that there were some Orthodox who believed in purgatory in the 16the century, but they were the minority and their view did not work out in the Orthodox Church.

Orthodox would say that until judgment day, one's bodiless soul remains in a state of anticipation for either heaven or hell.  So the souls of the departed are either in the vestibule of heaven or the vestibule of hell.  Until the final judgement, they won't go anywhere since they need to be reunited with their body.

It's hard to mesh that with pugatory though because of the reason for being there.  Roman Catholics believe one undergoes a purification of the remaining "guilt" associated with sins (that have been forgiven) and that once purified of that, one may enter heaven.  The Orthodox are saying that 1) there is no such thing as guilt left over from a sin, 2) that everyone undergoes purification throughout eternity anyways, always "getting holier and more one with God" in an eternal process, whereas RC's are saying that you "get holy" and then you go to heaven, and 3) Orthodox do not believe that anyone, except the Theotokos, St. Elijah, and St. Enoch, are actually in heaven proper becuase only those three have their bodies.  The rest of us are waiting on our bodies, even the saints, although they by their holiness are already bold before God and hence in their case the distinction is probably academic.

Another reason that Orthodox pray for the dead is the hope that they might be taken out of the waiting chamber for hell and put in the abode of the just.  That doesn't really jive with the "once you're dead you're too late" belief that scripture tends to present but then again, judgement has not happened yet so it's conceivable and ok to hope for.

anastasios
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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2003, 06:21:58 PM »

Quote
Yes, but not sure if that's dogmatic or just a difference in culture/theological method. What compendia of Eastern Orthodox canon law there are - I'm thinking of St Nikodemos the Hagiorite's relatively recent (last few centuries) compilation The Rudder - AFAIK list lots of severe canonical penances for certain sins. Indulgences are just western Catholicism's application of that, substituting certain prayers for these.

Indulgences were born out of the purgatory doctrine and equal time off purgatory.  Thus they are a different concept altogether of what Saint Nikodemos compiled.

Quote
Under that name it's a western Catholic concept but Orthodox de facto believe in it as they do pray for the dead - without an intermediate state for souls on their way to heaven, prayer for the dead is meaningless. Objections such as 'purgatory as a mini-hell is wrong' are nonissues, since such isn't Catholic doctrine either.

No, the Orthodox do not believe in de facto purgatory.  The Orthodox belief of prayer aiding souls is well articulated by Elder Cleopa of Romania in the book The Truth of Our Faith.  The Orthodox approach to life after death is radically different than the post-schism Latin one.  For example look at Saint Anthony the Great's telling of his vision of souls ascending to heaven....

Quote
Pretty much AFAIK but these are matters of discipline, not of faith, not of dogma.

That very attitude is utterly foriegn to Orthodoxy.  All of those issues are important, especially the fasting.  Saint Justin Popovich writes very clearly on how important asceticism is.  Orthodoxy is a faith of maximums....not "what is the least I can do to get to heaven" sort of feelings.  So to just dismiss such major things are discipline is completely un-Orthodox.  
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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2003, 06:54:27 PM »

Quote
That very attitude is utterly foriegn to Orthodoxy.  All of those issues are important, especially the fasting.  Saint Justin Popovich writes very clearly on how important asceticism is.  Orthodoxy is a faith of maximums....not "what is the least I can do to get to heaven" sort of feelings.  So to just dismiss such major things are discipline is completely un-Orthodox.  

I don't think you are addressing what Serge is actually saying.  There clearly is a difference between dogmas, doctrines, and disciplines.  #'s 1 and 2 are not negotioable but the practice of disciplines does vary, even within the Eastern Orthodox communion (for instance whether olive oil is allowed during a fast).  Serge is not saying "hey what's the least we can do" but is rather recognizing that there are legitimate differences that do not touch upon the deepest beliefs.

anastasios
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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2003, 08:31:38 PM »

Quote
Orthodox would say that until judgment day, one's bodiless soul remains in a state of anticipation for either heaven or hell.  So the souls of the departed are either in the vestibule of heaven or the vestibule of hell.  Until the final judgement, they won't go anywhere since they need to be reunited with their body.

Sounds too much like soul sleep, which only Jehovah's Witnesses believe in.

Quote
Another reason that Orthodox pray for the dead is the hope that they might be taken out of the waiting chamber for hell and put in the abode of the just.  That doesn't really jive with the "once you're dead you're too late" belief that scripture tends to present but then again, judgement has not happened yet so it's conceivable and ok to hope for.

Right, that's heresy — unless the waiting chamber for hell really is the intermediate state, which is purgatory.

Quote
That very attitude is utterly foriegn to Orthodoxy.  All of those issues are important, especially the fasting.  Saint Justin Popovich writes very clearly on how important asceticism is.  Orthodoxy is a faith of maximums....not "what is the least I can do to get to heaven" sort of feelings.  So to just dismiss such major things are discipline is completely un-Orthodox.
 

AFAIK the late Fr Justin is not a canonized saint in any Orthodox church. It seems like John Walker Lindh you've found a serviceable vehicle for your teenage rebellion.

</surface>
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2003, 09:11:43 PM »

Quote
Sounds too much like soul sleep, which only Jehovah's Witnesses believe in.

Except that the soul isn't sleeping--it's waiting.

Quote
Right, that's heresy — unless the waiting chamber for hell really is the intermediate state, which is purgatory.

I think you misread me: I don't think it's heresy to pray that God would take someone out of the waiting chamber for hell and stick them into the waiting chamber for heaven.  While we know that in a sense at death you are judged, the final judgement is not until the end of time, so there is a lapse.  As far as if purgatory is the waiting chamber for hell, Roman Catholics would reject that notion and say that purgatory is part of heaven but just the "vestibule."

Quote
AFAIK the late Fr Justin is not a canonized saint in any Orthodox church. It seems like John Walker Lindh you've found a serviceable vehicle for your teenage rebellion.

Serge,

I was quick to defend you when Nektarios misrepresented what you were saying.  But after your recent reply I reread his post and saw nowhere where he directed any comments to your personal religious status or state.  So I would ask you to keep your critiques on topic, as you are very capable of expressing your point of view without getting personal.  If you are thinking "well he attacked me personally before on this forum" I would agree with you, but I think that since Nektarios took a break for two months from posting and has recently returned, we all owe it to each other to enact a clean slate so that serious discussion can continue.  If he were to say something personal to you, I would respond in like kind to him.

To all involved,

This is a very interesting topic, one that I am very personally interested in.  Might I suggest the following works which shed light on the situation?

Life after Death by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos
The Mystery of Death by Nikolaos Vassiliades.

Both books are used in a course on death at St. Vladimir's so I trust that they must have something redeeming in them.  Smiley

Sincerely,

anastasios
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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2003, 09:12:25 PM »

Quote
AFAIK the late Fr Justin is not a canonized saint in any Orthodox church.

It is my understanding that Serge is correct in this matter.

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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2003, 09:24:44 PM »

<surface>

Quote
I think you misread me: I don't think it's heresy to pray that God would take someone out of the waiting chamber for hell and stick them into the waiting chamber for heaven.  While we know that in a sense at death you are judged, the final judgement is not until the end of time, so there is a lapse.  As far as if purgatory is the waiting chamber for hell, Roman Catholics would reject that notion and say that purgatory is part of heaven but just the "vestibule."

I should have written, 'Right, that's heresy, unless the waiting chamber for hell isn't really the waiting chamber for hell but the intermediate state'.

Quote
I was quick to defend you when Nektarios misrepresented what you were saying.  But after your recent reply I reread his post and saw nowhere where he directed any comments to your personal religious status or state.  So I would ask you to keep your critiques on topic, as you are very capable of expressing your point of view without getting personal.  If you are thinking "well he attacked me personally before on this forum" I would agree with you, but I think that since Nektarios took a break for two months from posting and has recently returned, we all owe it to each other to enact a clean slate so that serious discussion can continue.  If he were to say something personal to you, I would respond in like kind to him.

I understand that but some of that type deserve it.

Best that I submerge and stay away.

</surface>
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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2003, 09:28:38 PM »

Serge,

Rather than staying away, I believe you can best serve the community by continuing to offer your point of view.  If you go away and let "that type" post his point of view exclusively, then the community takes a turn in one direction.  I much prefer a wide variety of Orthodox theological opinions and approaches to be expressed.

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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2003, 09:33:14 PM »

<surface>

Thanks. All I'll add is elevating disciplines like fasting to the level of dogma seems like showing off one's fasting to others and thus missing the point, and finally, 'the community' already has taken that turn.

OK, I'm done here.

</surface>
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2003, 09:40:21 PM »

Quote
I don't think you are addressing what Serge is actually saying.  There clearly is a difference between dogmas, doctrines, and disciplines.  #'s 1 and 2 are not negotioable but the practice of disciplines does vary, even within the Eastern Orthodox communion (for instance whether olive oil is allowed during a fast).  Serge is not saying "hey what's the least we can do" but is rather recognizing that there are legitimate differences that do not touch upon the deepest beliefs

I failed to really articulate what I wanted to say and thus all the confusion here is my fault.  I intended to mean that taking away fast (almost) altogether like in the modern RCC is more than just a matter of disciplinary difference.  

Quote
AFAIK the late Fr Justin is not a canonized saint in any Orthodox church.[/qoute]

I thought he was canonized at least on a local level, or so I was told by some pretty reputable sources.  Regardless he is a great writter.  

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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2003, 09:41:55 PM »

Quote
I don't think you are addressing what Serge is actually saying.  There clearly is a difference between dogmas, doctrines, and disciplines.  #'s 1 and 2 are not negotioable but the practice of disciplines does vary, even within the Eastern Orthodox communion (for instance whether olive oil is allowed during a fast).  Serge is not saying "hey what's the least we can do" but is rather recognizing that there are legitimate differences that do not touch upon the deepest beliefs

I failed to really articulate what I wanted to say and thus all the confusion here is my fault.  I intended to mean that taking away fast (almost) altogether like in the modern RCC is more than just a matter of disciplinary difference.  

Quote
AFAIK the late Fr Justin is not a canonized saint in any Orthodox church.[/qoute]

I thought he was canonized at least on a local level, or so I was told by some pretty reputable sources.  Regardless he is a great writter.  
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2003, 09:42:50 PM »

yikes I can't figuere out how this quote thing works......technology is often too much for me!!
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2003, 09:56:03 PM »

What is up with everybody lately ? If everybody on the forum had the same ideas/opinions it would be boring & stagnant.

Heck, I 've been missing Serge's comments/opinons . (what do they call it when you borrow some ones work it pin it as yours?)


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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2003, 08:06:39 AM »

HollyR,


One web site I would recommend you explore is:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/index.html

It has a number of articles on a variety of topics.  It has sections that start from the basics of the Orthodox faith.
 

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you on your spiritual journey.
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« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2003, 10:53:20 PM »

<surface>

Thanks. All I'll add is elevating disciplines like fasting to the level of dogma seems like showing off one's fasting to others and thus missing the point, and finally, 'the community' already has taken that turn.

OK, I'm done here.

</surface>

Serge,

I really like seeing your posts and I get a lot out of them (like an education!).

I really wish you would reconsider.

It's a genuine drag when you "submerge".

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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2003, 01:19:14 PM »

One web site I would recommend you explore is:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/index.html

But be careful. Not everything there is true and some of it is plain error. Read much more widely than one website.

Indeed you are better of with The Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos Ware which is a standard introduction to Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2003, 04:59:13 PM »

[I know that the orthodox church was the first to split off, right? ]

WRONG!  We never split from the authority of Rome because we were never 'under the authority of Rome'.  Administratively,  what is now known as the Roman Catholic Church did not function as it does now in the first thousand years of Chritianity.  The Patriarch of Rome was one of five patriarchates.  Because he resided in Rome, which was the capitol of the then known Roman Empire, he had a 'primacy OF HONOR'.   He was looked upon as the 'first AMONGST EQUALS' . He never had the so called supremacy over the entire christian church he claims now.  Recommend the following website for the Orthodox Catholic view regarding so called 'Papal Primacy' which is really 'papal Supremacy' -

http://aggreen.net/peter/st_peter.html

[What keeps them from being catholic?]

Absolutely nothing!  We Orthodox, contrary to what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, never left that 'One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church' mentioned in the Nicean Creed.  We are still it in it's original unadulterated form. We have neither added to the faith of the first seven ecumenical councils (like the RCC), nor have we subtracted or changed the faith of that church of the first seven ecumenical councils as both the RCC and the Protestants have.  We, more than any other church, best fit the description of St Vincent of Lerins on the definition of what it means to be a Catholic -

----------

A General Rule for distinguishing the Truth of the Catholic Faith from the Falsehood of Heretical Pravity

That we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense "Catholic," which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity, if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is manifest were notoriously held by our holy ancestors and fathers; consent, in like manner, if in antiquity itself we adhere to the consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors.

 ----------

[Do you disagree on any theological issues like the big ones such as Mary, eucharist, confession, icons etc?]

We do not believe in the 'Immaculate Conception' of the Theotokos.  Eucharist we receive in 'both' species rather than one.  Though we both believe that the bread and wine becomes the body & blood of Christ, we disagree on when and exactly how that happens.  We Orthodox see it more as a mystery which needs no exact formula to happen.  It is one of God's mysteries.  Confession is similiar except our priests don't ask questions like when, where, why, and how many times?  God is well aware about what we are confessing.  We both have Icons.  Orthodox Catholics more so than Roman Catholics.

Hope this helps.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2003, 12:24:05 AM »

Orthodoc,

I am using your last post for a quick info reference for doubting family members, short & has the needed info.

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