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Author Topic: Thousands of Muslims Attack Coptic Church in Cairo  (Read 5850 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: November 29, 2008, 05:17:37 PM »

Several thousand Muslims have attacked the Coptic church of the Virgin Mary in West Ain Shams, in the suburbs of Cairo. 800 faithful attending the first liturgy remained barricaded inside the church.

The demonstrators attacked the building on the day of its inauguration, November 23. The strife began in the early hours of the morning when a group of Muslims took possession of the first floor of a building in front of the church, turning it into a place of prayer. At about five o'clock in the afternoon, other demonstrators blocked the road on both sides, and began the attack. The building was originally a factory, but has been modified as a place of worship for the Orthodox Coptic community, after a bureaucratic process that lasted five years...

To read the rest of the story go to: Thousands of Muslims Attack Coptic Church in Cairo
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2008, 07:45:42 PM »

Coptic Head Orders No Prayer in Disputed Church
http://christianpost.com/article/20081126/coptic-head-orders-no-prayer-in-disputed-church.htm
By Ethan Cole
Christian Post Reporter
Wed, Nov. 26 2008 05:40 PM EST

The Coptic Pope Shenuda III barred Egyptian Christians from praying in a church building in Cairo Tuesday after sectarian violence broke out this past weekend over the building’s use as a Christian prayer hall.

At least eight men were arrested on Sunday night when Muslims clashed with Coptic Christians in the neighborhood of Ein Shams to protest the use of the property for prayer, according to state news agency MENA.

Muslims reportedly threw stones and burned two cars during the riot.

In response to the clash, Pope Shenuda III ordered Copts to cease praying in the church-owned building that was previously an unused factory.

Following the clash, Copts complained about the unfair law that requires them to be granted presidential permission before building a church or expanding an existing church. The authorization is difficult to near impossible to get and many Christians feel the law exists only to oppress the Christian minority community in a country where 90 percent or more of the population is Muslim.

Relations between Egyptian Muslims and the Christian minority were in the past peaceful, but have recently grown strained. Conversions to Christianity and a growing tendency to work and live among members of one’s religion have escalated tension between the two groups.

There are an estimated 10 million Copts in Egypt, or the equivalent of about 10 percent of the population. The Coptic population, or the Orthodox Christians of Egypt, is the largest group of Christians in the Middle East.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 07:46:10 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2008, 09:44:03 PM »

I don't understand this response. This is just going to encourage the Muslims to continue with these tactics, as they are apparently working.
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2008, 09:57:00 PM »

I don't understand this response.
Possibly because you don't live in a country where you can be persecuted for your Faith.
The Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Armenian Catholicate have to make many similar compromises in Turkey. Consider these Bishops' positions. Is demanding the use of a building worth risking the lives of thousands for whom they are responsible? Could you live with that on your conscience?
No one is rushing to the aid of the Orthodox, they have no choice.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 10:00:22 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2008, 10:04:05 PM »

I pray that God will be merciful and preserve the Copts through this persecution.  May they come through these trials stronger and more faithful!
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2008, 10:29:58 PM »

Lord have mercy on the persecuted Orthodox Christians and sexually victimized Muslim women of Egypt.
May God save and deliver them from the hands of Egyptian Muslim men.
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2008, 11:12:55 PM »

May God save and deliver them from the hands of Egyptian Muslim men.

 Roll Eyes

Tamara, I'm afraid this isn't a feminist issue.
Do you think these women Islamists are any better than male ones?:


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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2008, 11:24:52 PM »

May God save and deliver them from the hands of Egyptian Muslim men.

 Roll Eyes

Tamara, I'm afraid this isn't a feminist issue.
Do you think these women Islamists are any better than male ones?:




You are right. Not all Muslim women are victims, many of them are just as zealous and crazed as their men.
But many Muslim women and girls have been abused by the men.
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2008, 11:30:06 PM »

But many Muslim women and girls have been abused by the men.
And that is relevant in a thread discussing Islamic persecution of Christians because......?
Does it somehow justify what the Chechnyen women terrorists did to the Orthodox Children of Beslan School?
And what makes you think that the persecutors of the Coptic Christians in the case of the OP did not include women?
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2008, 11:56:55 PM »

Lord have mercy on the persecuted Orthodox Christians and sexually victimized Muslim women of Egypt.  May God save and deliver them from the hands of Egyptian Muslim men.

Just to make sure that you're being clear, you do not mean that all or most Egyptian Muslim men behave this way, do you?  I have met a few Copts, and they tended to talk about their experiences with their Muslim neighbors quite positively.  I am not even sure it would be accurate to say that most Egyptians are this extreme.  I think that it is a vocal and active minority, but I am certainly open to correction.  Much of this just comes off as anti-Islamic propaganda, so I am weary to get on board with the idea that this is the reality for most Christians in Egypt.
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2008, 12:01:41 AM »

But many Muslim women and girls have been abused by the men.
And that is relevant in a thread discussing Islamic persecution of Christians because......?
See below.
Quote
Does it somehow justify what the Chechnyen women terrorists did to the Orthodox Children of Beslan School?
No, I am not trying to justify the brutality of any Muslim woman who has harmed Christians.

Quote
And what makes you think that the persecutors of the Coptic Christians in the case of the OP did not include women?
I never said it didn't but I would guess the majority of persecutors were men. Because, from what I have read, most Egyptian women (Muslim or Christian) do not feel safe in public. They are sexually harassed and abused walking in the streets. Since the rise of Muslim fundamentalism brought about the mullahs in Egypt, all women have been treated worse over time. The persecution of the Christians is just another huge symptom of the sickness.


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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2008, 12:07:43 AM »

Lord have mercy on the persecuted Orthodox Christians and sexually victimized Muslim women of Egypt.  May God save and deliver them from the hands of Egyptian Muslim men.

Just to make sure that you're being clear, you do not mean that all or most Egyptian Muslim men behave this way, do you?  I have met a few Copts, and they tended to talk about their experiences with their Muslim neighbors quite positively.  I am not even sure it would be accurate to say that most Egyptians are this extreme.  I think that it is a vocal and active minority, but I am certainly open to correction.  Much of this just comes off as anti-Islamic propaganda, so I am weary to get on board with the idea that this is the reality for most Christians in Egypt.

The article did say thousands of Muslims. Thousands of protesters doesn't sound like a small minority to me. While there may have been some women among the group, you can bet the majority of them were men.
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2008, 12:28:00 AM »

I have met a few Copts, and they tended to talk about their experiences with their Muslim neighbors quite positively. 

Bat Ye'or may offer a relevant opinion:  consult her book _The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam : From Jihad to Dhimmitude : Seventh-Twentieth Century_.   For a very brief note, go to http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/840.
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2008, 12:31:57 AM »

I never said it didn't but Since the rise of Muslim fundamentalism brought about the mullahs in Egypt
So the problem is Muslim fundamentalism. I agree.

all women have been treated worse over time.
And so have All Christian Egyptians, both male and female.
So rather than diverting attention from the real problem, which is Islamic fundamentalism, lets avoid straying in to using the issue for our own little soapbox for our own agenda. It's a post-feminist world now- there is no "universal female identity" any more in the post-structuralist third wave feminist world. The goddess is dead, get with the times.
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2008, 12:35:22 AM »

I happen to know quite a few Copts.  A few hundred anyway.  Many of them said their lives in Egypt were quite peaceful . . . as long as they kept their mouths shut.  Most of them came here for opportunity, which they did not have in Egypt; and for the fear of escalating persecution, which has now began.  I knew a Muslem Egyptian family, who certainly weren't violent and were quite liberal as far as Muslems go - their opinion was that the Copts were just a bunch of whiners.  Somehow I don't think the speaking out about persecution and oppression is whining.
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2008, 12:37:27 AM »

^^ Sorry, I had a point here; those Muslems who aren't persecuting tend to be complacent.
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2008, 12:37:42 AM »

I never said it didn't but Since the rise of Muslim fundamentalism brought about the mullahs in Egypt
So the problem is Muslim fundamentalism. I agree.

all women have been treated worse over time.
And so have All Christian Egyptians, both male and female.
So rather than diverting attention from the real problem, which is Islamic fundamentalism, lets avoid straying in to using the issue for our own little soapbox for our own agenda. It's a post-feminist world now- there is no "universal female identity" any more in the post-structuralist third wave feminist world. The goddess is dead, get with the times.
Cheesy George, I am not a feminist, not by any stretch of the imagination. Our Lord Jesus Christ is my liberator and has given me all the freedom I will ever require. But Islam is a religion for men. Women have never been worth much according to the Koran. And Islamic fundamentalism was created by men (mullahs and imams). 
 
 
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2008, 12:45:01 AM »

Cheesy George, I am not a feminist, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Really? That's sort of contradicted by the next three quotes from you:

But Islam is a religion for men.
No, Islam is a heretical religion for both men and women.

Women have never been worth much according to the Koran.
Fatimah would disagree.

And Islamic fundamentalism was created by men.
So women are absolved of any involment in it's rise eh? Cheesy If that's not first-wave feminist bleatings, I don't know what is! You have two more waves to get through to be up to date! Cheesy
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2008, 01:04:59 AM »

The article did say thousands of Muslims. Thousands of protesters doesn't sound like a small minority to me. While there may have been some women among the group, you can bet the majority of them were men.

The article vaguely stated that "several thousand" protesters were responsible, but I would like to point out that Cairo has a population estimated in 2006 to be just under seven million people.  So to take it a little farther, that would be 3,000/7,000,000.  That would mean that 0.0004% of Cairo's population felt it necessary to protest the opening of the church.  That actually does sound like a minority to me. 

I am not turning my nose up at 3,000 protesters against 800 faithful Copts, but this incident does not conclusively prove that even "most" Egyptian Muslims act violently against their Coptic neighbors.
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2008, 01:23:21 AM »

Fwiw, The original article posted on this thread said there were 20,000 people, including women and children, as does another article about the same news story. I didn't post that part of the story for the same reason that I never post an entire story: to avoid violating copyright.


Ozgeorge,

Quote
Possibly because you don't live in a country where you can be persecuted for your Faith. The Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Armenian Catholicate have to make many similar compromises in Turkey. Consider these Bishops' positions. Is demanding the use of a building worth risking the lives of thousands for whom they are responsible? Could you live with that on your conscience?
No one is rushing to the aid of the Orthodox, they have no choice.

True, I really have no experiential understanding of what these people are going through. It just seems to me that this move would encourage Muslims to continue using these tactics, in which case this compromise will backfire and make things worse, not better. Give an inch, they'll take a foot--that sort of thing. But as you said, I am thinking with my American head, and don't really understand from experience what these people are going through, so maybe I'm way off base here.
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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2008, 01:34:31 AM »

Cheesy George, I am not a feminist, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Really? That's sort of contradicted by the next three quotes from you:

But Islam is a religion for men.
No, Islam is a heretical religion for both men and women.
Women are members of the religion but they have no influence in it.

Women have never been worth much according to the Koran.
Quote
Fatimah would disagree.
Well, good for Fatimah, but since she was the "prophet's" daughter I could see she would. Most other women in Islam have not fared as well.

The Qur'an:
Sura (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also Sura (4:176)).

Sura (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women"


Sura (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it"  Men are to rub dirt on their hands if there is no water to purify them following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).

Sura (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye.

Sura (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..."  A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land.


Sura (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four"

Sura (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names."  Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.

Sura (4:24) and Sura (33:52) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage.

From the Hadith:
 
Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?'  They replied in the affirmative.  He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"
 
Bukhari (6:301) - continued - "[Muhammad said] 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion.'" 

Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants.  This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men.


Abu Dawud (2:704) - "...the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw."
 
Ishaq 593 - "From the captives of Hunayn, Allah's Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another."
 
Ishaq 969 - "Men were to lay injunctions on women lightly, for they were prisoners of men and had no control over their persons."

And Islamic fundamentalism was created by men.
Quote
So women are absolved of any involment in it's rise eh? Cheesy If that's not first-wave feminist bleatings, I don't know what is! You have two more waves to get through to be up to date! Cheesy
Women are irrelevant in Islam. It really doesn't matter if they agree or disagree with what the men do. But if they disagree there most likely will be consequences for them (ie: they will be beaten).
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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2008, 01:39:42 AM »

The article did say thousands of Muslims. Thousands of protesters doesn't sound like a small minority to me. While there may have been some women among the group, you can bet the majority of them were men.

The article vaguely stated that "several thousand" protesters were responsible, but I would like to point out that Cairo has a population estimated in 2006 to be just under seven million people.  So to take it a little farther, that would be 3,000/7,000,000.  That would mean that 0.0004% of Cairo's population felt it necessary to protest the opening of the church.  That actually does sound like a minority to me. 

I am not turning my nose up at 3,000 protesters against 800 faithful Copts, but this incident does not conclusively prove that even "most" Egyptian Muslims act violently against their Coptic neighbors.
I think another poster mentioned the nonviolent Muslims have a sense of complacency about the violent ones or they seem to view the Christians as "whiners." So while the majority may not be violent they seem to turn a blind eye to the persecution of the Christians. I guess it is another example of how "the religion of peace" promotes peace.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2008, 01:44:11 AM »

OK.  Whatever.  I see that you've found your scapegoat.  Let me know how that works out for you.
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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2008, 01:45:35 AM »

True, I really have no experiential understanding of what these people are going through. It just seems to me that this move would encourage Muslims to continue using these tactics, in which case this compromise will backfire and make things worse, not better. Give an inch, they'll take a foot--that sort of thing. But as you said, I am thinking with my American head, and don't really understand from experience what these people are going through, so maybe I'm way off base here.
Asteriktos,
It's just an accident of birth that you and I don't live in places where we could be imprisoned, have property confiscated, be tortured, imprisoned or killed for our beliefs. At the same time, we should also remember in our prayers our suffering brethren who are not so fortunate. True, if you give an inch, they'll take a foot, but when your choice is between giving them a foot or the deaths of many, really, what choice does one have?
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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2008, 01:51:44 AM »

OK.  Whatever.  I see that you've found your scapegoat.  Let me know how that works out for you.

Alveus,

I have a Greek friend, who's grandfather was beheaded by the Muslims. My grandparents fled Syria because of the persecution by the Muslims. I believe the Muslim religion is from the devil.

sincerely, Tamara
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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2008, 01:55:07 AM »

Alveus Lacuna,
Do you realize that if you were a catechumen in Egypt converting from Islam, you could be tortured by the police? It has actually happened:
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&idelement=4956&lang=en&length=short&backpage=archives&critere=Shaymaa%20&countryname=&rowcur=0
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« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2008, 02:12:41 AM »

Lord have Mercy on your Church in Egypt, and to all Orthodox Christians suffering as a witness to the faith!

Hinum-dumi O Ginoo ang imong Iglesia sa Ehipto, ug tanang mga Kristiyanong Orthodox nga naga.antos alang sa pagtuo kanimo!
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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2008, 02:28:07 AM »

I think another poster mentioned the nonviolent Muslims have a sense of complacency about the violent ones or they seem to view the Christians as "whiners." So while the majority may not be violent they seem to turn a blind eye to the persecution of the Christians.

Exactly.  I've heard that there have been a few Muslim Egyptians who protest the violence against Copts, just as there have recently been a few Turkish scholars who have spoken out against the denial of the Armenian Genocide.  However, these are a small minority.

Alveus, I would think that being Serbian Orthodox would make you more sensitive to this.  The people of your Church have themselves suffered greatly.
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« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2008, 04:34:22 AM »

Alveus, I would think that being Serbian Orthodox would make you more sensitive to this.  The people of your Church have themselves suffered greatly.

If you go back and read my posts before the last one, I think that you'll find me quite sympathetic and hoping that the Copts stay faithful underneath persecution.  What I was frustrated by is this notion that Islamic men are somehow beasts; subhuman filth only looking to rape and abuse Christian women.  My last post was simply the culmination of my exasperation.

I was trying to point out that for however many people were there, so many others were not.  One article stated that several thousand were present, others stated that 20,000 were there.  That is a pretty huge difference.  I will agree with some of the other sentiments in the thread; it is not as if there were other Muslims there trying to stop the violence.  The situation is very sad and my prayers and support go to the Copts.  Just remember that we are called to pray for those who persecute us.  The Muslims are still God's children and bear the image of the divine within them.  We must love our enemies!

Lord, have mercy!
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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2008, 09:58:58 AM »

I don't understand this response. This is just going to encourage the Muslims to continue with these tactics, as they are apparently working.

I'd have to trust HH Pope Shenoudah's judgment on this: he has previously also ordered priests to have continous services in demonlished Churches, and other defient acts, so I can assume he has a plan, which is worked out on a case by case basis.
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« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2008, 10:02:52 AM »

But many Muslim women and girls have been abused by the men.
And that is relevant in a thread discussing Islamic persecution of Christians because......?
Does it somehow justify what the Chechnyen women terrorists did to the Orthodox Children of Beslan School?
And what makes you think that the persecutors of the Coptic Christians in the case of the OP did not include women?

This interchange reminds me of a number of women Muslim scholars now in positions of teaching authority in the US who teach Islam.  They speak of the Islam of their grandmothers and mothers, which is pacifist and tolerant, which goes on in the harem.  That may well be (in some cases, I know it is), but us "infidels" have to deal with Islam's public fist.
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2008, 10:08:01 AM »

Lord have mercy on the persecuted Orthodox Christians and sexually victimized Muslim women of Egypt.  May God save and deliver them from the hands of Egyptian Muslim men.

Just to make sure that you're being clear, you do not mean that all or most Egyptian Muslim men behave this way, do you?  I have met a few Copts, and they tended to talk about their experiences with their Muslim neighbors quite positively.  I am not even sure it would be accurate to say that most Egyptians are this extreme.  I think that it is a vocal and active minority, but I am certainly open to correction.  Much of this just comes off as anti-Islamic propaganda, so I am weary to get on board with the idea that this is the reality for most Christians in Egypt.

It's a lingering threat in the air.  Not every Church is demolished, but any one might.  Not every Christian's heirs are deprived of their inheritence by false witness of Muslims that the father secretly converted, but it does happen.  Not every Christian girl is raped, abducted for "marriage" to young militants while the police do nothing, but it does happen.

I haven't been in Egypt since '92, so I can't be up to date on the ground.  When I was there, I remember the Copts expected massive retaliation from the Muslims once Bosnia fell.  No resentment or blame on the Serbs at all: the Copts saw the Serbs as maintaining their freedom from Islamist opppression.

No, not all Muslims are militants.  But they defer to the "most Muslim."  There are Muslims who will speak out and personally risk themselves to defend Christians and even Christianity.  (I once had the occasion Upper Egypt where a Muslim, who had just severely criticized Christianity to me in Frence, argue with a militant in Arabic that I was not "an infidel," that Christianity was around before Islam).  But I'd put that at 10%, if that.

Despite that, every Christian I know in Egypt knows at least one Muslim who has converted to Christ.


And what makes you think that the persecutors of the Coptic Christians in the case of the OP did not include women?
I never said it didn't but I would guess the majority of persecutors were men. Because, from what I have read, most Egyptian women (Muslim or Christian) do not feel safe in public. They are sexually harassed and abused walking in the streets. Since the rise of Muslim fundamentalism brought about the mullahs in Egypt, all women have been treated worse over time. The persecution of the Christians is just another huge symptom of the sickness.

I have to agree.  More emphasis was being put on the outer control of women rather than the inner control of a man's labido.  I've seen women covered to head to toe get cat calls, remarks, etc.  To the pure all things are pure, to the impure, nothing is pure.

I happen to know quite a few Copts.  A few hundred anyway.  Many of them said their lives in Egypt were quite peaceful . . . as long as they kept their mouths shut.  Most of them came here for opportunity, which they did not have in Egypt; and for the fear of escalating persecution, which has now began.  I knew a Muslem Egyptian family, who certainly weren't violent and were quite liberal as far as Muslems go - their opinion was that the Copts were just a bunch of whiners.  Somehow I don't think the speaking out about persecution and oppression is whining.


^^ Sorry, I had a point here; those Muslems who aren't persecuting tend to be complacent.

Besides agreeing a hundred per cent, I'll just add every Christian I know, and myself, have had Muslims ask them favors involving trust where the Muslim specifically asked the Christian because he could be trusted "because you're a Chrsitian."  There was a secular university ethnographical study on the slums in SE Cairo which found this condemnation of the Christians as "whiners, trouble makers,etc." yet statements that they depend on Christians where trustworthiness is a major issue, and that the Christians, unlike Muslims, help each other, and, unlike Muslims, help the Muslims too.
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« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2008, 02:31:14 PM »

If you put yourself in HH's shoes, you'd understand that he simply cares about not having anyone get hurt from the Coptic Church.  Perhaps, he's halting Church services now in hopes that he can get judges to send guards later.  But this is a very tough decision, and even I as a father would ask my children not to put themselves in harm's way.  Rather close a church building and save lives than keep it open and have them killed.
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« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2008, 02:50:03 PM »

So, the evil tentacles of the Muslim Brotherhood have reached into Cairo itself. Sad. The MB has always been strong in most areas outside Cairo and Alexandria giving  the illusion of some degree of tolerance in Egypt.
 
The Copts are truly suffering for His sake.
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« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2008, 10:52:00 PM »

I believe the Muslim religion is from the devil.

I cannot remember which Father--if indeed only a single one has done so--called Muhammud a forerunner of the anti-Christ.  The compline canons to the Mother of God refer to the Moslems in various unflattering terms, which might be offensive if the memory of the Orthodox experience under the Moslem yoke be firmly suppressed. 
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« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2008, 11:36:50 PM »

I believe the Muslim religion is from the devil.

I cannot remember which Father--if indeed only a single one has done so--called Muhammud a forerunner of the anti-Christ.  The compline canons to the Mother of God refer to the Moslems in various unflattering terms, which might be offensive if the memory of the Orthodox experience under the Moslem yoke be firmly suppressed. 
DanM

Dan,

Thanks for this piece of information. I can't see how we could view Muhammud otherwise. At the very least he is false prophet which Christ warned us to avoid. But forerunner of the anti-Christ seems a more accurate description. Christ raised men and women up and through His saving grace restored us while Muhammud's Qur'an threw human beings back into hell.

Fr. Pat Reardon was very adamant at our last retreat that our God is not the same god of Islam. First, of all Allah is only one and as one being there is no chance for there to be love within the one. While each member of the Holy Trinity loves one another and is the source of all love. He then very clearly explained how the Koran was a book dictated by one author, alleged to be the archangel Gabriel, at one point in time to Muhammud. In contrast, the Holy Scripture was the inspired Word of God written by many authors throughout the history of Israel/Church.
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« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2008, 08:39:59 AM »

Lord, have mercy!
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« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2008, 09:40:53 AM »

This interchange reminds me of a number of women Muslim scholars now in positions of teaching authority in the US who teach Islam.  They speak of the Islam of their grandmothers and mothers, which is pacifist and tolerant, which goes on in the harem.  That may well be (in some cases, I know it is), but us "infidels" have to deal with Islam's public fist.

I had a female Muslim professor for my Islam class in college; she spewed so much of that kind of garbage (that you refer to) that I had to leave the class and drop it from my schedule.
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« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2008, 05:29:44 PM »

Quote
Asteriktos,
It's just an accident of birth that you and I don't live in places where we could be imprisoned, have property confiscated, be tortured, imprisoned or killed for our beliefs.

Well, not yet anyway. To quote Hrisi Ali, "There is no such thing as Islamophobia."

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Just fixed quote tags.  --EofK
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« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2008, 07:41:32 PM »

First, of all Allah is only one and as one being there is no chance for there to be love within the one. While each member of the Holy Trinity loves one another and is the source of all love.

I don't understand this. Undecided Could you elaborate? If you are trying to say somehow that Allah is a jealous god, the Christian God is also described as being jealous.
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« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2008, 09:59:35 PM »

First, of all Allah is only one and as one being there is no chance for there to be love within the one. While each member of the Holy Trinity loves one another and is the source of all love.

I don't understand this. Undecided Could you elaborate? If you are trying to say somehow that Allah is a jealous god, the Christian God is also described as being jealous.
At the center of the universe there is the Divine love within the Trinitarian relationship (the Father loves the Son and the Holy Spirit and that love is reciprocated between all three). It is out of that relationship that we were created and saved, and it is for that relationship we were created and saved. St. Athanasius wrote, "God became human so that humans might become divine." In other words, we can't be truly godly unless we're first truly human. And we can't be truly human unless we're in communion with Christ in his Trinitarian relations.

In Islam, there is no divine relationship of love because there is only the one, Allah.
Does that make it a little more clear? I am no theologian so I hope I am not confusing you further.  Huh
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« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2008, 12:11:38 AM »

But there is a relationship of love between Allah and mortals, right? Or is this love based on submission...?
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« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2008, 12:58:10 AM »

But there is a relationship of love between Allah and mortals, right? Or is this love based on submission...?

Myrrh,

I am definitely not a theologian for Islam so I don't think I am qualified to answer your question.  Undecided
All I know is there is no room for any sort of godhead or divine love within it. Without that, I would ask a Muslim theologian, where does Allah's love come from? What is it's source?

And if you think about it, the demons masquerading as angels or delusions always flee whenever a saint would cross themselves and say the Trinitarian prayer.
So how very convenient that the first tenant of Islam is: "God is One." No Trinity, no fear for the demons. Angry

But it is interesting to note that if Islamic love is based on submission to Allah, then we see another dichotomy between it and Christianity:

"God becomes powerless before human freedom; He cannot violate it since it flows from His own omnipotence. Certainly man was created by the will of God alone; but he cannot be deified [made Holy] by it alone. A single will for creation, but two for deification. A single will to raise up the image, but two to make the image into a likeness. The love of God for man is so great that it cannot constrain; for there is no love without respect. Divine will always will submit itself to gropings, to detours, even to revolts of human will to bring it to a free consent."
Vladimir Lossky, Orthodox Theology: An Introduction
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« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2008, 02:24:50 AM »

Here are 2 passages from the Qur'an referenced at the site called  Islam: God and Love

Quote
Rafah can be translated as compassion, kindness or pity, while rahmah is usually rendered as grace, love, blessing or mercy. About God's rahmah the Qur'an says that it encompasses all things:

My punishment I inflict upon whom I will but My rahmah embraces all things... (7:156)

O our Sustainer! You embrace all things within (Your) rahmah and knowledge. (40:7)

Contrast to the simple Orthodox Christian Belief of "God is Love."  Allah provides rahmah to those who obey him and makes rahmah available to those who are being punished.
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« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2008, 02:36:49 AM »


And if you think about it, the demons masquerading as angels or delusions always flee whenever a saint would cross themselves and say the Trinitarian prayer.
So how very convenient that the first tenant of Islam is: "God is One." No Trinity, no fear for the demons. Angry

That's creepy, but I see what you mean! Shocked
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