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Author Topic: Visibility/Invisibility of the "spiritual body"  (Read 909 times) Average Rating: 0
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Heorhij
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« on: November 26, 2008, 09:36:04 AM »

Dear folks,

Could you give me some patristic references on the question, will our risen "spiritual body" (1 Cor. 15:44) be invisible, or visible?

The reason I am asking is that my Gnostic opponent on another forum states that St. Paul's terms "imperishable," "in glory," "in power," and "spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:42-44), and the expression "the likeness of the man from Heaven" (1 Cor. 15:49) CANNOT refer to anything made of matter, substance or to anything that has any outward appearance, anything visible.

Thank you.
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 10:21:08 AM »

Dear folks,

Could you give me some patristic references on the question, will our risen "spiritual body" (1 Cor. 15:44) be invisible, or visible?

The reason I am asking is that my Gnostic opponent on another forum states that St. Paul's terms "imperishable," "in glory," "in power," and "spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:42-44), and the expression "the likeness of the man from Heaven" (1 Cor. 15:49) CANNOT refer to anything made of matter, substance or to anything that has any outward appearance, anything visible.

Thank you.

George,

Firstly you should be VERY careful which translation he is using.  According to the Orthodox Study Bible, 1 Corinthians 15:49 reads as follows:  "And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man" So...
 
In terms of 1 Corinthians 15:44:  "it is sown in a natural body it is raised a spiritual body.  There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"  which is perhaps more of what you are looking for. 

Here is St. John Chrysostom's commentary on this:  "What sayest thou?  Is not "this" body spiritual?  It is indeed spiritual, but that will be much more so.  For now oftentimes both the abundant grace of the Holy Ghost flies away on men's committing great sins; and again, the Spirit continuing present, the life of the flesh depends on the soul:  and the result in such a case is a void, without the Spirit.  But in that day not so:  rather he abides continually in the flesh of the righteous and the victory shall be His, the natural soul also being present.  For either it was some such thing which he intimated saying "a spiritual body" or that it shall be lighter and more subtle and such as even to be wafted upon the air; or rather he meant both of these.  And if thou disbelieve the doctrine, behold the heavenly bodies which are so glorious and (for this time) so durable, and abide in undecaying tranquility:  and believe thou from hence, that God can also make these corruptible bodies incorruptible and much more excellent than those which are visible."  (pg. 252, NPNF Series 1, vol 12)

But really what you are looking for is when Christ appeared before Thomas after His resurrection and told Thomas to touch his wounds, which he did, and he also sat and ate with the Apostles, showing his physicial reality after death.  So, in terms of whether the "risen body" will be visible or invisible, it will be VISIBLE but not exactly what we think it is going to be, not exactly recognizable in the sense we may thing.  on the Road to Emmaus the disciples did not recognize Christ until he said something to them, to trigger a memory and recognize Him...but he was physically present to them.  Yet, in the upper room they knew he was there.  So...he was physically present, but not in any sense prior to his death and resurrection. 


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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 10:27:39 AM »

Dear folks,

Could you give me some patristic references on the question, will our risen "spiritual body" (1 Cor. 15:44) be invisible, or visible?

The reason I am asking is that my Gnostic opponent on another forum states that St. Paul's terms "imperishable," "in glory," "in power," and "spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:42-44), and the expression "the likeness of the man from Heaven" (1 Cor. 15:49) CANNOT refer to anything made of matter, substance or to anything that has any outward appearance, anything visible.

Thank you.

  Fr. Stephen Fraser sees it as heresy in this quote.

 Man is not two, he is not divided. He does not have two natures. If we say that ordinary man has two natures, then we have to say that Christ has three—the two necessary for His manhood and the divine one. Of course to believe such a teaching would plunge us into the deepest heresy. The fifth Ecumenical Council of the Church (Chalcedon), as well as her conscience, proclaims only two natures in Christ—human and divine.
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 10:46:35 AM »

See Luke 24:38, 39

After Jesus' resurrection He appeared to His disciples:

38  And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 11:03:37 AM »

Thank you so much, serb1389, Demetrios, and Mark.

Serb1389, - is the text you are quoting (from St. John Chrysostom) online? What si the title of the homily from where you were quoting!

Thank you all again.

G.
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 01:59:12 PM »

Thank you so much, serb1389, Demetrios, and Mark.

Serb1389, - is the text you are quoting (from St. John Chrysostom) online? What si the title of the homily from where you were quoting!

Thank you all again.

G.

Forgive me, I should have done this in the first place.  I'm just so used to referencing books instead of internet, that I totally forgot!

Here is the link:  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xlii.html

Just click on the "next" or "previous" button to go through the commentary, verse by verse, (page by page).  Let me know if you have a problem with the biblical citations too...
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2008, 03:03:02 PM »

^Thank you!
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