OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 22, 2014, 08:22:43 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Divine Liturgy of St. Basil  (Read 5987 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Justinianus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255



« on: September 10, 2003, 12:51:57 PM »

Since becoming an Eastern Christian, first as a Byzantine/Ukrainian Catholic 7 years ago and  as a convert to the Orthodox Church this year, I have only experienced the Divine Liturgy a few times.

I have seen it celebrated on St. Basil's Saint Day and on Pascha, but no other times.  Is there a special reason for this?  Is the Divine Liturgy of St. John C. considered to be more appropriate for all other days?

I am curious as to why the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil is not used more often.
Logged

"If we truly think of Christ as our source of holiness, we shall refrain from anything wicked or impure in thought or act and thus show ourselves to be worthy bearers of his name.  For the quality of holiness is shown not by what we say but by what w
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 810


WWW
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2003, 01:01:09 PM »

here's a bit of history that might help: http://stmarycoptorthodox.org/liturgy-history.htm
Logged
Justinianus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255



« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2003, 01:15:19 PM »

here's a bit of history that might help: http://stmarycoptorthodox.org/liturgy-history.htm

Thank you!

From what I understand from the link, the reason why the Divine Liturgy of St. John C. is used more commonly is that is much shorter (less than half the length )than that of St. Basil.
Logged

"If we truly think of Christ as our source of holiness, we shall refrain from anything wicked or impure in thought or act and thus show ourselves to be worthy bearers of his name.  For the quality of holiness is shown not by what we say but by what w
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2003, 01:47:22 PM »

Let's just make sure that everyone understands that the Coptic Liturgy of St. Basil is different than the Byzantine Divine Liturgy of St. Basil.

anastasios
« Last Edit: September 10, 2003, 01:49:33 PM by anastasios » Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2003, 04:21:18 PM »

Unless my memory is failing me more miserably than usual the Chrysostom Liturgy is celebrated on Pascha itself, Basil's Liturgy is on the eve - the Vespers Liturgy.

Just to be clear I am referring to the Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches here that I am familiar with.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2003, 04:23:13 PM by TonyS » Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2003, 08:14:42 PM »

Unless my memory is failing me more miserably than usual the Chrysostom Liturgy is celebrated on Pascha itself, Basil's Liturgy is on the eve - the Vespers Liturgy.

Just to be clear I am referring to the Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches here that I am familiar with.

The Liturgy of Sainy Basil is also celebrated on his feast day in the "Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches" (ho-boy, it's been a loooong day.)

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2003, 09:21:40 PM »


The Liturgy of Sainy Basil is also celebrated on his feast day in the "Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches" (ho-boy, it's been a loooong day.)

Demetri

It is also celebrated on the Sundays of Lent and the eves of Thephany and Chrismas and Holy Thursday.  

But no one asked when it was celebrated nor limited it to  that.  The initial statement was "I have seen it celebrated on St. Basil's Saint Day and on Pascha, but no other times." then a response was given referencing a Coptic site.  Now the initial poster may have seen what he alleges but that is not normative Eastern Orthodox practice that I am aware of.  Hence my qualifying statements.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2003, 09:32:42 PM by TonyS » Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2003, 09:22:34 PM »

St. Basil's Liturgy is also celebrated DURING Great Lent

Only on Sundays.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2003, 09:28:29 PM »

It is important to note because on Saturdays during Lent it is the Chrysostom liturgy as it is for Annunciation.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2003, 09:37:28 PM »

In "The Lenten Liturgies" The preface points out that "the average worshipper is hardly aware of the differences between this and the more familiar Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, since the principal differences are largely inaudible."

Yet other things change.  The hymn to the Theotokos "Dostoyno Yest'/Axion Estin" is replaced, that also occurs at other times but not with the him "All creation rejoices in You."  

In some Slav Churches the music of the anaphora also changes to accomodate the longer prayers said by the priest "mysically."  This is easily noted among Carptho-Russians.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2003, 09:51:17 PM »

I don't think anyone can, at this point, say why the liturgies are taken on certain days (Basil and Chrysostom that is).  The texts are readily available for anyone to read from a myriad of sources.

My point is with your quote " the principal differences are largely inaudible" which is not accurate alone.  Perhaps in the Byzantine usage but not in all.  As I said before the Carpatho-Russians (who maintain a perfectly legitimate local usage) sing different melodies for the anaphora on the Sundays of Lent.  The people know it is Basil's liturgy because of that.  Check this thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxPSALM/message/3097

Since I was in a church of the Carpatho-Russian usage for 10 years I can't keep quiet on this one.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2003, 10:01:43 PM »

A text of St. Basil's liturgy offered by the GOA is available here:
http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/basil.asp

St. John's is here: http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc.asp

This is the article from which Vicki cites:  http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/LENTENLITURGIES.asp

I have no doubt it is 100% accurate from a Byzantine/Greek liturgical/musical perspective.  That perspective cannot be generalized to all Orthodox usages as evidenced by variant melodies in the CR usage.

Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2003, 10:03:12 PM »

Since we are on this subject let me state for the record that I am not in favor of longer 'Basil melodies' to cover up the priest's mystical prayers.  But they are used and are part of the authentic tradition.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2003, 10:04:55 PM »

"ask your liturgics profs if they know the reason."

Part of it has to do with Baumstark's 'law' IIRC.  Lent (and Holy Week to a greater degree) preserves older usages.  Basil's liturgy is older.  

Anyway we are only talking the anaphora here.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2003, 10:06:28 PM by TonyS » Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2003, 10:14:51 PM »

If you search you can find stuff on Baumstark's Law...here is one thing:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav/message/9269?source=1

Just a post on a board.  No one can say for sure, this is merely a theory to help grasp what we can't be sure of.  Search online and you can find stuff.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2003, 10:19:35 PM »

http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/Basils.html

Simply says it is older.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2003, 10:20:47 PM »

I am not in favor of repeating hymns to cover the prayers in any event...what is wrong with letting the people know the priest is praying?  Roll Eyes

No one has said anything about repeating hymns.  Where does that come from?
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2003, 10:29:37 PM »

I wrote "melodies."  That means melodies.  Not the same as simply repeating the same thing over-and-over.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 810


WWW
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2003, 07:35:20 AM »

Let's just make sure that everyone understands that the Coptic Liturgy of St. Basil is different than the Byzantine Divine Liturgy of St. Basil.

anastasios

I realize that, but the article I posted, while dealing primarily with Alexandria, also deals with the other Churches, and mentions both versions of the Liturgy of St. Basil.  I know that it's not from the perspective that the original poster probably wanted, but I thought that it might have some useful information in addition to the answers the would be provided by other people here.  Sorry if I wasn't clear enough when I posted it.
Logged
Justinianus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255



« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2003, 07:40:51 AM »

I don't think anyone can, at this point, say why the liturgies are taken on certain days (Basil and Chrysostom that is).  The texts are readily available for anyone to read from a myriad of sources.


This in a way answers some of my questions.  The questions I have about the Liturgy of St. Basil are:

1.  Why is it not used as often as the one of St. John C.  

2. Why is the Liturgy used on certain days.  

It looks like these questions have been for the most part answered by the discussion.

Since I became a Eastern Christian, this has been a curiosity or me, but just never asked it before.  I thought I would ask it on this board.

Logged

"If we truly think of Christ as our source of holiness, we shall refrain from anything wicked or impure in thought or act and thus show ourselves to be worthy bearers of his name.  For the quality of holiness is shown not by what we say but by what w
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2003, 04:57:00 AM »

It was probably shortened due to the length of Chrysostom's homilies Grin

Just kidding Smiley

unworthy John
Logged
Justinianus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255



« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2003, 08:56:37 AM »

Yes, it most certainly does!  Thank you Vicki!
Logged

"If we truly think of Christ as our source of holiness, we shall refrain from anything wicked or impure in thought or act and thus show ourselves to be worthy bearers of his name.  For the quality of holiness is shown not by what we say but by what w
Remnkemi
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 123


« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2011, 12:39:07 PM »

Does anybody know where I can find both the Byzantine and Coptic Liturgy of St Basil in Greek (not Coptic)? Is it online anywhere?
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,990


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2011, 09:42:38 PM »


Coptic Liturgy of St. Basil
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/liturgy/liturgy_of_st_basil.pdfiturgy of St. Basil

Byzantine Liturgy of St. Basil (the prayers that differ from that of St. John Chrysostom)
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/Basil%20noted[3].pdf

Ethiopian Anaphora of St. Basil (page 109)
http://ethiopianorthodox.org/biography/englishethiopianliturgy.pdf

There is also a Syriac Anaphora of St. Basil but I can't find an English translation.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Remnkemi
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 123


« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 09:08:40 AM »

I was looking for the Greek texts, not English. Any ideas?
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.075 seconds with 51 queries.