Divine Liturgy of St. Basil

[Justinianus]

Since becoming an Eastern Christian, first as a Byzantine/Ukrainian Catholic 7 years ago and  as a convert to the Orthodox Church this year, I have only experienced the Divine Liturgy a few times.

I have seen it celebrated on St. Basil's Saint Day and on Pascha, but no other times.  Is there a special reason for this?  Is the Divine Liturgy of St. John C. considered to be more appropriate for all other days?

I am curious as to why the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil is not used more often.

[Jonathan]

here's a bit of history that might help: http://stmarycoptorthodox.org/liturgy-history.htm

[Justinianus]

here's a bit of history that might help: http://stmarycoptorthodox.org/liturgy-history.htm

Thank you!

From what I understand from the link, the reason why the Divine Liturgy of St. John C. is used more commonly is that is much shorter (less than half the length )than that of St. Basil.

[Anastasios]

Let's just make sure that everyone understands that the Coptic Liturgy of St. Basil is different than the Byzantine Divine Liturgy of St. Basil.

anastasios

[TonyS]

Unless my memory is failing me more miserably than usual the Chrysostom Liturgy is celebrated on Pascha itself, Basil's Liturgy is on the eve - the Vespers Liturgy.

Just to be clear I am referring to the Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches here that I am familiar with.

[Αριστοκλής]

Unless my memory is failing me more miserably than usual the Chrysostom Liturgy is celebrated on Pascha itself, Basil's Liturgy is on the eve - the Vespers Liturgy.

Just to be clear I am referring to the Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches here that I am familiar with.

The Liturgy of Sainy Basil is also celebrated on his feast day in the "Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches" (ho-boy, it's been a loooong day.)

Demetri

[TonyS]

The Liturgy of Sainy Basil is also celebrated on his feast day in the "Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches" (ho-boy, it's been a loooong day.)

Demetri

It is also celebrated on the Sundays of Lent and the eves of Thephany and Chrismas and Holy Thursday.  

But no one asked when it was celebrated nor limited it to  that.  The initial statement was "I have seen it celebrated on St. Basil's Saint Day and on Pascha, but no other times." then a response was given referencing a Coptic site.  Now the initial poster may have seen what he alleges but that is not normative Eastern Orthodox practice that I am aware of.  Hence my qualifying statements.

[TonyS]

St. Basil's Liturgy is also celebrated DURING Great Lent

Only on Sundays.

[TonyS]

It is important to note because on Saturdays during Lent it is the Chrysostom liturgy as it is for Annunciation.

[TonyS]

In "The Lenten Liturgies" The preface points out that "the average worshipper is hardly aware of the differences between this and the more familiar Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, since the principal differences are largely inaudible."

Yet other things change.  The hymn to the Theotokos "Dostoyno Yest'/Axion Estin" is replaced, that also occurs at other times but not with the him "All creation rejoices in You."  

In some Slav Churches the music of the anaphora also changes to accomodate the longer prayers said by the priest "mysically."  This is easily noted among Carptho-Russians.

[TonyS]

I don't think anyone can, at this point, say why the liturgies are taken on certain days (Basil and Chrysostom that is).  The texts are readily available for anyone to read from a myriad of sources.

My point is with your quote " the principal differences are largely inaudible" which is not accurate alone.  Perhaps in the Byzantine usage but not in all.  As I said before the Carpatho-Russians (who maintain a perfectly legitimate local usage) sing different melodies for the anaphora on the Sundays of Lent.  The people know it is Basil's liturgy because of that.  Check this thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxPSALM/message/3097

Since I was in a church of the Carpatho-Russian usage for 10 years I can't keep quiet on this one.

[TonyS]

A text of St. Basil's liturgy offered by the GOA is available here:
http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/basil.asp

St. John's is here: http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc.asp

This is the article from which Vicki cites:  http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/LENTENLITURGIES.asp

I have no doubt it is 100% accurate from a Byzantine/Greek liturgical/musical perspective.  That perspective cannot be generalized to all Orthodox usages as evidenced by variant melodies in the CR usage.

[TonyS]

Since we are on this subject let me state for the record that I am not in favor of longer 'Basil melodies' to cover up the priest's mystical prayers.  But they are used and are part of the authentic tradition.

[TonyS]

"ask your liturgics profs if they know the reason."

Part of it has to do with Baumstark's 'law' IIRC.  Lent (and Holy Week to a greater degree) preserves older usages.  Basil's liturgy is older.  

Anyway we are only talking the anaphora here.

[TonyS]

If you search you can find stuff on Baumstark's Law...here is one thing:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav/message/9269?source=1

Just a post on a board.  No one can say for sure, this is merely a theory to help grasp what we can't be sure of.  Search online and you can find stuff.

[TonyS]

http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/Basils.html

Simply says it is older.

[TonyS]

I am not in favor of repeating hymns to cover the prayers in any event...what is wrong with letting the people know the priest is praying?  

No one has said anything about repeating hymns.  Where does that come from?

[TonyS]

I wrote "melodies."  That means melodies.  Not the same as simply repeating the same thing over-and-over.

[Jonathan]

Let's just make sure that everyone understands that the Coptic Liturgy of St. Basil is different than the Byzantine Divine Liturgy of St. Basil.

anastasios

I realize that, but the article I posted, while dealing primarily with Alexandria, also deals with the other Churches, and mentions both versions of the Liturgy of St. Basil.  I know that it's not from the perspective that the original poster probably wanted, but I thought that it might have some useful information in addition to the answers the would be provided by other people here.  Sorry if I wasn't clear enough when I posted it.

[Justinianus]

I don't think anyone can, at this point, say why the liturgies are taken on certain days (Basil and Chrysostom that is).  The texts are readily available for anyone to read from a myriad of sources.

This in a way answers some of my questions.  The questions I have about the Liturgy of St. Basil are:

1.  Why is it not used as often as the one of St. John C.  

2. Why is the Liturgy used on certain days.  

It looks like these questions have been for the most part answered by the discussion.

Since I became a Eastern Christian, this has been a curiosity or me, but just never asked it before.  I thought I would ask it on this board.

[prodromos]

It was probably shortened due to the length of Chrysostom's homilies

Just kidding

unworthy John

[Justinianus]

Yes, it most certainly does!  Thank you Vicki!

[Remnkemi]

Does anybody know where I can find both the Byzantine and Coptic Liturgy of St Basil in Greek (not Coptic)? Is it online anywhere?

[Deacon Lance]

Coptic Liturgy of St. Basil
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/liturgy/liturgy_of_st_basil.pdfiturgy of St. Basil

Byzantine Liturgy of St. Basil (the prayers that differ from that of St. John Chrysostom)
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/Basil%20noted[3].pdf

Ethiopian Anaphora of St. Basil (page 109)
http://ethiopianorthodox.org/biography/englishethiopianliturgy.pdf

There is also a Syriac Anaphora of St. Basil but I can't find an English translation.

[Remnkemi]

I was looking for the Greek texts, not English. Any ideas?

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