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Author Topic: Opus Dei: Controversial Inside and Outside the Catholic Church  (Read 9908 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pravoslavbob
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« on: November 25, 2008, 12:42:58 PM »

Since Lubeltri chose to remain silent in regards to my post concerning this "personal prelature" of the Roman Church, I have decided to create a new thread.  How is it that an organisation like Opus Dei can come to have such an influence in the Catholic Church?  It is clearly a controversial group both in and outside of the Roman communion.  What are the implications for relations between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church?

This is a website run by former members of Opus Dei who wish to call attention to alleged abuses perpetrated by the group.

http://www.odan.org/

This overview from Wikipedia seems to provide a rather balanced view of things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei

Here is my original post from the Differences in Orthodox and Catholic Approaches to the Christian Life thread.

BTW, Pravoslav, before you go Dan Brown and make a crack at St. Josemaria and Opus Dei, I suggest you actually read The Way and actually meet Opus Dei members. Go on a weekend retreat with them (I just did this past weekend, in fact).

The fact is that Opus Dei is an extremely controversial group, both inside and outside of the Roman Catholic Church.  I think I have met members of Opus Dei.  The thing is, they never admitted to me being members of the organisation and were in many ways quite secretive.  IMHO, your enthusiasm for this group does nothing to bolster your cause for Catholicism.  It might make some think that you have a tendency towards sectarian extremism.  I may or may not be counted among these people.  I am not saying that the link below gives the whole story, but it does give one pause to consider some disturbing questions.  And it's not only here that one can see evidence of the controversy.  Just doing a google search would provide one with plenty of reasons to question the motivations of this group and perhaps even its founder.

http://www.odan.org/
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 12:44:48 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2008, 01:39:24 PM »

Opus Dei is protecting the deeply held Vatican Secret that Jesus was actually married to Mary Magdalene, who is really the Holy Grail.  Grin
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« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2008, 01:56:50 PM »

Opus Dei is protecting the deeply held Vatican Secret that Jesus was actually married to Mary Magdalene, who is really the Holy Grail.  Grin

Ugh.  I wish I had never spent the 30 minutes it took to read/predict that book.  Blech.
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« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2008, 02:12:27 PM »

Gnosticism simply found more powerful friends in Hollywood and the Internet.
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« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 02:27:48 PM »

Opus Dei is protecting the deeply held Vatican Secret that Jesus was actually married to Mary Magdalene, who is really the Holy Grail.  Grin

I was always looking for independent confirmation of these facts from a true Roman Catholic!  Thank you for your courage in discussing this openly!  When the Opus Dei folks come to take you away to their secret prisons to torture you for divulging this information, we'll support you in prayer (and a sequel!).
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 02:42:28 PM »

Many thanks.  Wink
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« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 05:21:29 PM »

Opus Dei is protecting the deeply held Vatican Secret that Jesus was actually married to Mary Magdalene, who is really the Holy Grail.  Grin

Interesting that you should choose to trivialise the whole situation in this way.  This appears to be a technique employed by Opus Dei itself in order to give itself more credibility and to show that those who oppose it are a bunch of kooks.  But this is not about The Davinci Code.  The controversy surrounding Opus Dei is decades older than the publication date of this silly book. 

http://www.odan.org/davinci.htm
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« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2008, 05:22:30 PM »

Opus Dei is protecting the deeply held Vatican Secret that Jesus was actually married to Mary Magdalene, who is really the Holy Grail.  Grin

Interesting that you should choose to trivialise the whole situation in this way.  This appears to be a technique employed by Opus Dei itself in order to give itself more credibility and to show that those who oppose it are a bunch of kooks.  But this is not about The Davinci Code.  The controversy surrounding Opus Dei is decades older than the publication date of this silly book. 

http://www.odan.org/davinci.htm
Yes... Decades. Even centuries. It all Started when the Illuminati...
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« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2008, 05:35:42 PM »

I do not think that those articles were particularly helpful.  The only controversial thing that I could find is that they are "secretive" and it is alleged that their superiors dictate what members can read.  Leadership in the group is also accused of reading the personal correspondence of its members.

But those accusations are not backed up by any substantial sources.  The more important question is what the groups actually teaches.  I would like to read something controversial about their teachings rather than allegations against their leaders' methods of leading.
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2008, 05:37:57 PM »

Thanks for bringing this up Pravoslavbob. Opus Dei (or "The Oddies" as they are known here) have all the hallmarks of a cult. I actually stayed my first Uni year in the Opus Dei run residential college at the University of New South Wales. I about lasted six months before moving to the Anglican College. Since the OD college I stayed in is the only OD college in NSW, it must be the one which this 17 year survivor of the OD cult mentions: http://www.odan.org/tw_seventeen_years.htm
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2008, 01:28:40 AM »

Grace and Peace my Eastern Brothers and Sisters in Christ and to those Roman Brethren who find themselves in diaspora here on this Orthodox Christian Forum. I find it interesting to see our Eastern Brothers and Sisters show concern of Opus Dei and the Catholic Church Proper. To fuel criticism it is always wise to first look to those dissident elements to give meat to one's concerns. In the age of the internet we are only a few clicks away from volumes of whatever views meet with our acceptance to craft and crave our opinions. Reality and truth are of no more concern when reality is but the sum of our evidence to it's contrary. We choose want we want to believe.

I would simply ask those who are not Catholic and who are not members of Opus Dei to restrain themselves from conclusions derived from dissident elements especially when one is a member of a tradition which draws much of it's own identity from it's opposition to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

I am not a member of Opus Dei but I am familiar with serveral works of it's founder Blessed Josemaria Escriva.
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2008, 01:40:38 AM »

... especially when one is a member of a tradition which draws much of it's own identity from it's opposition to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.


Please clarify specifically what you mean by this.

At first glance, it may appear that you are indicating that the Holy Orthodox Church draws much of its identity from being opposed to Rome.

Is this what you intend to state?
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2008, 02:10:19 AM »

... especially when one is a member of a tradition which draws much of it's own identity from it's opposition to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.


Please clarify specifically what you mean by this.

At first glance, it may appear that you are indicating that the Holy Orthodox Church draws much of its identity from being opposed to Rome.

Is this what you intend to state?

Grace and Peace to you Father,

I could not be honest with you, Father, if I didn't say clearly that a real crisis of identity exists between Eastern and Western Christianity, most specifically in the facts that both Eastern and Western Churches proclaim and profess themselves to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Modern Polemics clearly go to great lengths to extenuate our differences in the hopes that these differences will cause a crisis of identity to choose a side. I find it dubious that devout followers of Orthodoxy can study the Holy Roman Catholic Church with any objectivity. To be a devout follower of Orthodoxy is not only a distinction in practice but only of distinction in historical continuance of the Christian Church. Since before 1054 AD the East has been opposed to the West. This has largely not changed.
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2008, 06:52:26 AM »

I would simply ask those who are not Catholic and who are not members of Opus Dei to restrain themselves from conclusions derived from dissident elements especially when one is a member of a tradition which draws much of it's own identity from it's opposition to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
In the post above this one I pointed out that my experience with Opus Dei was first hand.....And I still think they're a sick cult.
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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2008, 10:20:58 AM »

Thanks for bringing this up Pravoslavbob. Opus Dei (or "The Oddies" as they are known here) have all the hallmarks of a cult. I actually stayed my first Uni year in the Opus Dei run residential college at the University of New South Wales. I about lasted six months before moving to the Anglican College. Since the OD college I stayed in is the only OD college in NSW, it must be the one which this 17 year survivor of the OD cult mentions: http://www.odan.org/tw_seventeen_years.htm

You`re welcome, Ozgeorge.  I remember reading a little bit about your experiences in another thread.

I've had first-hand experience with Opus Dei ("ODDIES" as we used to call them at Uni).
My first Semester at university was spent at an Opus Dei residential college at the Unviversity of NSW (Warrane College). It was not advertised as an Opus Dei college. After one semester, I couldn't stand it any more and took refuge in New College (an Anglican college). I kept getting into trouble at Warrane for ridiculous things like speaking to a female student in front of the college entrance (females are not permitted to enter Warrane), also, because I would not attend Mass in the college chapel or go to the weekly Chaplain's talk. I did attend Mass there once to appease one of my friends there, and it was strange. During the Eucharist, even though they used the Novos Ordo, a huge screen consisting of copper plates with religious symbols was drawn across the Communion rail to screen the altar- kind of like an Iconostasis without the Icons; and Communion was distributed to kneeling communicants on the tongue only, which was strange, since I had attended a few funeral Masses before and never saw any of this.
I remember, I spent a lot of my time at Warrane in the gym punching the punching bag.
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2008, 10:35:41 AM »

Grace and Peace my Eastern Brothers and Sisters in Christ and to those Roman Brethren who find themselves in diaspora here on this Orthodox Christian Forum. I find it interesting to see our Eastern Brothers and Sisters show concern of Opus Dei and the Catholic Church Proper. To fuel criticism it is always wise to first look to those dissident elements to give meat to one's concerns. In the age of the internet we are only a few clicks away from volumes of whatever views meet with our acceptance to craft and crave our opinions. Reality and truth are of no more concern when reality is but the sum of our evidence to it's contrary. We choose want we want to believe.

I would simply ask those who are not Catholic and who are not members of Opus Dei to restrain themselves from conclusions derived from dissident elements especially when one is a member of a tradition which draws much of it's own identity from it's opposition to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

I am not a member of Opus Dei but I am familiar with serveral works of it's founder Blessed Josemaria Escriva.

Well, if Opus Dei represents a "dissident" element, it is a dissident element like no other.  Their founder was put on the fast track to sainthood by Pope John Paul II.  Pope Benedict XVI is apparently on record as having spoken very highly of the group when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger.  Pope John Paul made Opus Dei a so-called "Personal Prelature", the only such "prelature" in existence in the Roman communion.  They have loads of assets and cash, and have great influence in several Catholic seminaries and schools of higher learning, if not outright control of these institutions.  They have many influential supporters and many influential detractors in the Catholic Church.  So I find it very disingenuous, to say the least, to simply dismiss them as being of no consequence when it comes to relations between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. 
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2008, 11:28:47 AM »


I've had first-hand experience with Opus Dei ("ODDIES" as we used to call them at Uni).
My first Semester at university was spent at an Opus Dei residential college at the Unviversity of NSW (Warrane College). It was not advertised as an Opus Dei college. After one semester, I couldn't stand it any more and took refuge in New College (an Anglican college). I kept getting into trouble at Warrane for ridiculous things like speaking to a female student in front of the college entrance (females are not permitted to enter Warrane), also, because I would not attend Mass in the college chapel or go to the weekly Chaplain's talk. I did attend Mass there once to appease one of my friends there, and it was strange. During the Eucharist, even though they used the Novos Ordo, a huge screen consisting of copper plates with religious symbols was drawn across the Communion rail to screen the altar- kind of like an Iconostasis without the Icons; and Communion was distributed to kneeling communicants on the tongue only, which was strange, since I had attended a few funeral Masses before and never saw any of this.
I remember, I spent a lot of my time at Warrane in the gym punching the punching bag.

If these practices make George think they are a "sick cult," I shudder to think of what he considers Mount Athos. I am surprised to hear from Orthodox criticisms about Opus Dei separating the sexes (except for the majority supernumeraries, who are married!), being strict, observing ascetic practices. What on Earth is wrong with that? The wonderful thing about St. Josemaria Escriva is he told the world that the way of perfection is NOT limited to "elite" classes of priests and monks. The layman, living in the world, can and should do the same.

St. Josemaria was on the fast track to canonization because so many reported miracles poured in during the years following his death---literally hundreds. It did not take long to verify the necessary two.

George, every Opus Dei Mass I've been to uses the "Benedictine altar arrangement"* and has communicants receive on the tongue with a paten under their chin.

*

And what is so unusual about this? The Holy Father does it:


Receiving on the hand, standing, is an EXCEPTION (indult) to the rule.

-

I am blessed to have a relationship with a local Opus Dei house. The good men there are serious about their faith and serious about evangelization. It's downright uncharitable to smear them as "sick cultists."
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2008, 12:18:37 PM »

Well, if Opus Dei represents a "dissident" element, it is a dissident element like no other.  Their founder was put on the fast track to sainthood by Pope John Paul II.  Pope Benedict XVI is apparently on record as having spoken very highly of the group when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger.  Pope John Paul made Opus Dei a so-called "Personal Prelature", the only such "prelature" in existence in the Roman communion.  They have loads of assets and cash, and have great influence in several Catholic seminaries and schools of higher learning, if not outright control of these institutions.  They have many influential supporters and many influential detractors in the Catholic Church.  So I find it very disingenuous, to say the least, to simply dismiss them as being of no consequence when it comes to relations between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. 

Gracias et Pax,

No, you have misunderstood me. I am not saying that Opus Dei is a dissident element but that websites by dissident elements of Opus Dei members might not be 'objective'. From what works I have read by Blessed Josemaria have been sound. So I'm not dismissing them but I fail to see why they are a concern to Orthodoxy? I guess my question is why is this a concern of yours?
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2008, 12:39:20 PM »

I have one word for you and lubeltri: cilice.
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2008, 12:42:14 PM »

I have one word for you and lubeltri: cilice.

You can even buy them online to prove how much a devotee of Opus Dei and the teachings of the almost Marquis Jose Maria (original spelling) you really are: http://www.cilice.co.uk/
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2008, 12:50:57 PM »

Since Lubeltri chose to remain silent in regards to my post concerning this "personal prelature" of the Roman Church, I have decided to create a new thread.  How is it that an organisation like Opus Dei can come to have such an influence in the Catholic Church?  It is clearly a controversial group both in and outside of the Roman communion.  What are the implications for relations between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church?

This is a website run by former members of Opus Dei who wish to call attention to alleged abuses perpetrated by the group.

http://www.odan.org/

This overview from Wikipedia seems to provide a rather balanced view of things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei

Here is my original post from the Differences in Orthodox and Catholic Approaches to the Christian Life thread.

BTW, Pravoslav, before you go Dan Brown and make a crack at St. Josemaria and Opus Dei, I suggest you actually read The Way and actually meet Opus Dei members. Go on a weekend retreat with them (I just did this past weekend, in fact).

The fact is that Opus Dei is an extremely controversial group, both inside and outside of the Roman Catholic Church.  I think I have met members of Opus Dei.  The thing is, they never admitted to me being members of the organisation and were in many ways quite secretive.  IMHO, your enthusiasm for this group does nothing to bolster your cause for Catholicism.  It might make some think that you have a tendency towards sectarian extremism.  I may or may not be counted among these people.  I am not saying that the link below gives the whole story, but it does give one pause to consider some disturbing questions.  And it's not only here that one can see evidence of the controversy.  Just doing a google search would provide one with plenty of reasons to question the motivations of this group and perhaps even its founder.

http://www.odan.org/


The report I saw on tv didn't move me. I don't see anything wrong with Opus Dei. I dated a few Roman Catholics in my life, and so I know that it all depends on if the Roman Catholic family is devout or not. There are alot of cultural Roman Catholics in the Rust belt....and yes alot of them may hate Opus Dei.

What I saw on TV was that a mother didn't like Opus Dei because of the rules they put on her daughter.

I'm like, so what! If your daughter is over the age of 18 then you have no rights over your daughter and what she does. Who cares if you can't see your daughter like you use to.

I think that's a good thing. To many Roman Catholics have been Americanized/Secularized!!!



I don't see anything wrong with Opus Dei, .....infact, I would rather see a Roman Catholic in Opus Dei than the free masons and Eastern Star.......and yes there are alot of cultural Roman Catholics (in the rust belt) who are Freemasons and Eastern Star.


People have to understand that some humans actually like Rules and regulations. If you can't handle it then groups like Opus Dei aren't for you.





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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2008, 12:58:48 PM »

Thanks for bringing this up Pravoslavbob. Opus Dei (or "The Oddies" as they are known here) have all the hallmarks of a cult. I actually stayed my first Uni year in the Opus Dei run residential college at the University of New South Wales. I about lasted six months before moving to the Anglican College. Since the OD college I stayed in is the only OD college in NSW, it must be the one which this 17 year survivor of the OD cult mentions: http://www.odan.org/tw_seventeen_years.htm


What's wrong with Cults? Is the Royal Navy a cult? Is the United States Army a cult?

Why can't religious groups be just as strict as the armed forces?





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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2008, 01:09:10 PM »

Gracias et Pax,

No, you have misunderstood me. I am not saying that Opus Dei is a dissident element but that websites by dissident elements of Opus Dei members might not be 'objective'. From what works I have read by Blessed Josemaria have been sound. So I'm not dismissing them but I fail to see why they are a concern to Orthodoxy? I guess my question is why is this a concern of yours?

Well, of course they are not objective.  They have a particular point of view.  Views supporting the group are not objective either.  The point is that Opus Dei is an extremely controversial group.  Criticism of it has come from a wide variety of sources, and this is no secret, even though members of the group appear to me to be disturbingly secretive.  Just do a google search and see for yourself.  As for your second question, I have already answered it.  This is a controversial group with allegedly sectarian and fanatical tendencies that has links that strike close to the heart of the Catholic Church.  So it should be of great concern to the Orthodox and anyone else who has the remotest kind of contact with the Church of Rome....ie just about everyone.
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2008, 01:16:16 PM »

What's wrong with Cults?

Right.  Who hasn`t felt the need to adhere to a large group of people and go with them to a remote area and drink grape juice laced with cyanide at one time or another in their life.  I know I have.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2008, 01:25:30 PM »

What's wrong with Cults?

Right.  Who hasn`t felt the need to adhere to a large group of people and go with them to a remote area and drink grape juice laced with cyanide at one time or another in their life.  I know I have.  Wink


Just because the Jim Jones cult did that doesn't mean Opus Dei and other groups will do the same.

A Cult can be used for civil evil, but they can also be used for civil good.


The Ahmish cult is a prime example. They don't always have to be bad.


There is nothing wrong in being strict. Some humans love strictness.



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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2008, 01:41:26 PM »

Jnorm,

You are right that criticisms of Opus Dei tend to come from so-called "progressive" Catholics or nominal Catholics. Laws, hierarchy and asceticism! The horrors!

My goodness, Blessed Mother Teresa wore a cilice, not to mention many other saints. Practices of mortification, BTW, must always be done under the guidance of a confessor/spiritual director. They must never be done out of pride or self-hatred. And cilices and hairshirts are by no means required of Opus Dei numeraries. They are done on a case-by-case basis. You can spot most numeraries simply by their modest and dignified dress, daily reception of sacraments, and exemplary discipline at work and elsewhere. They are neither scary nor cult-like.

I defy anyone to read St. Josemaria's The Way and not see it as a very profitable and orthodox work of spiritual reflections.
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2008, 01:41:27 PM »

The point is that Opus Dei is an extremely controversial group.  Criticism of it has come from a wide variety of sources, and this is no secret, even though members of the group appear to me to be disturbingly secretive.  Just do a google search and see for yourself.  As for your second question, I have already answered it.  This is a controversial group with allegedly sectarian and fanatical tendencies that has links that strike close to the heart of the Catholic Church.  

And so were the Jesuits. And boy do I wish they were still like that!
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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2008, 01:46:46 PM »

My goodness, Blessed Mother Teresa wore a cilice, not to mention many other saints.
And the fact that post schism Catholic Saints wear cilices makes it a good practice because......?

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« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2008, 01:58:36 PM »

The point is that Opus Dei is an extremely controversial group.  Criticism of it has come from a wide variety of sources, and this is no secret, even though members of the group appear to me to be disturbingly secretive.  Just do a google search and see for yourself.  As for your second question, I have already answered it.  This is a controversial group with allegedly sectarian and fanatical tendencies that has links that strike close to the heart of the Catholic Church.  

And so were the Jesuits. And boy do I wish they were still like that!

Well, that`s very telling.  You wish that they were in every way as secretive and manipulative as they were in the past.  That they were as much involved in illicitly subverting Orthodox Churches and slowly bringing them into the Eastern Catholic fold, among many, many other underhanded and decitful practices.  Thank you for your honesty on this point, at least.  

But there is one other thing that I would like to ask you about, Lubeltri.  As a member of Opus Dei, do you not find it a little bit disturbing that you are not really permitted to talk about your membership here?  What does the prelature have to hide?
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« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2008, 02:33:28 PM »

I am not a member of Opus Dei nor do I intend to be.* But unlike you, I actually know members of Opus Dei on a personal basis. I spend time at their houses. I go on their retreats. I confess to their priests.

Considering the hysterical attitude many non-Catholics or nominal/progressive Catholics have towards the order, I can understand why they don't go about trumpeting themselves. They seek holiness in their daily lives in the world, to be lay beacons of light. That is the whole point---to blend in the outside world and not set themselves apart, to be good leaven.

Personally, I have no idea why Orthodox Christians would give Opus Dei a second thought. It is a Catholic order---it has nothing to do with you, and you need not have contact with it.

RE: the Jesuits---I was trying to say that they ALSO had a "controversial" reputation. Back when they were growing in numbers---which is the case today with Opus Dei.

I never agreed with you that they were "secretive and manipulative." In fact, I dispute that. Protestant legends---scary but with little basis in fact.

I'm not trying to be snarky here. I'm just very mystified at the non-Catholics' interest in and accusations against Opus Dei. These are people I know---I don't see what is so controversial about them or their order.

* I'm an aspirant to another religious order.


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« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2008, 02:35:59 PM »

My goodness, Blessed Mother Teresa wore a cilice, not to mention many other saints.
And the fact that post schism Catholic Saints wear cilices makes it a good practice because......?


How is this different from some of the personal mortification practices of some of our own monastic saints?  For instance, I remember reading of how St. Herman of Alaska wore a heavy chain upon his body for much of his life.
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« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2008, 02:36:49 PM »

My goodness, Blessed Mother Teresa wore a cilice, not to mention many other saints.
And the fact that post schism Catholic Saints wear cilices makes it a good practice because......?

I don't think there's anything wrong with the wearing of one if under the guidance of a spiritual director. They aren't gruesome like the one you see on the albino "monk" in The DaVinci Code. They aren't meant to draw blood---just cause discomfort or minor pain.

I don't wear one myself. I don't know how many numeraries wear cilices---when you do penances, you don't tell everyone about it lest the penance be done out of pride.
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« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2008, 02:47:40 PM »

FWIW, there are a lot of "traditionalist" Catholics that have issues with Opus Dei as well.

I'm just pointing out that criticism  of the group is not limited to progressive or nominal Catholics.
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« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2008, 03:00:03 PM »

FWIW, there are a lot of "traditionalist" Catholics that have issues with Opus Dei as well.

I'm just pointing out that criticism  of the group is not limited to progressive or nominal Catholics.

Are there somewhere voices of concern about them helping God? Any reaction about that?
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« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2008, 03:01:16 PM »

FWIW, there are a lot of "traditionalist" Catholics that have issues with Opus Dei as well.

I'm just pointing out that criticism  of the group is not limited to progressive or nominal Catholics.

That is true. They see Opus Dei as too wedded to the Novus Ordo (even if reverently celebrated). Opus Dei is seen to follow the Pope in everything---thus the enthusiastic adoption of the Novus Ordo and the enthusiastic adoption of the "Benedictine" altar arrangement which the Holy Father instituted at his Masses after he became Pontiff. Thus their embrace of John Paul II's promotion of the "universal call to holiness." Traditionalists generally distrust the lay movements that have boomed over the last 60 years---Opus Dei, Regnum Christi, Communion and Liberation, Focolare, etc.

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« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2008, 03:08:36 PM »

My goodness, Blessed Mother Teresa wore a cilice, not to mention many other saints.
And the fact that post schism Catholic Saints wear cilices makes it a good practice because......?


How is this different from some of the personal mortification practices of some of our own monastic saints?  For instance, I remember reading of how St. Herman of Alaska wore a heavy chain upon his body for much of his life.
Ahh yes. The heavier the chain the quicker the entrance into the kingdom. laugh



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« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2008, 03:24:03 PM »

How is this different from some of the personal mortification practices of some of our own monastic saints?  For instance, I remember reading of how St. Herman of Alaska wore a heavy chain upon his body for much of his life.
1) They don't have spikes.
2) This seems to be the practices of some Russian and Ukrainian monastic Saints, and the adoption of Roman Catholic practices in Russian Spirituality is well documented {eg. the "Seven Sorrows", "The Tale of the Five Prayers", the Absolution prayer of St. Peter Moghila (whose glorification is only recognised in the Polish, Ukrainian and Romanian Churches)}
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« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2008, 04:53:01 PM »

Quote
Personally, I have no idea why Orthodox Christians would give Opus Dei a second thought. It is a Catholic order---it has nothing to do with you, and you need not have contact with it.

But weren't you just asking about Orthodox old calendarists the other day (unless that was papist, I forget)? One could ask why you would give them a second thought. There's something to be said for curiosity in bringing a subject up and discussing it. Though I could see why you'd be reacting negatively in this particular thread, given how Opus Dei is being dealt with.
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« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2008, 05:07:49 PM »

FWIW, there are a lot of "traditionalist" Catholics that have issues with Opus Dei as well.

I'm just pointing out that criticism  of the group is not limited to progressive or nominal Catholics.

That is true. They see Opus Dei as too wedded to the Novus Ordo (even if reverently celebrated). Opus Dei is seen to follow the Pope in everything---thus the enthusiastic adoption of the Novus Ordo and the enthusiastic adoption of the "Benedictine" altar arrangement which the Holy Father instituted at his Masses after he became Pontiff. Thus their embrace of John Paul II's promotion of the "universal call to holiness." Traditionalists generally distrust the lay movements that have boomed over the last 60 years---Opus Dei, Regnum Christi, Communion and Liberation, Focolare, etc.




MY Godfather is a former member of "Regnum Christi". He didn't like it, and he has alot of bad things to say about the movement.

But to each his own.......one persons nightmare might be another persons dream.





JNORM888
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« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2008, 05:20:19 PM »

FWIW, there are a lot of "traditionalist" Catholics that have issues with Opus Dei as well.

I'm just pointing out that criticism  of the group is not limited to progressive or nominal Catholics.

That is true. They see Opus Dei as too wedded to the Novus Ordo (even if reverently celebrated). Opus Dei is seen to follow the Pope in everything---thus the enthusiastic adoption of the Novus Ordo and the enthusiastic adoption of the "Benedictine" altar arrangement which the Holy Father instituted at his Masses after he became Pontiff. Thus their embrace of John Paul II's promotion of the "universal call to holiness." Traditionalists generally distrust the lay movements that have boomed over the last 60 years---Opus Dei, Regnum Christi, Communion and Liberation, Focolare, etc.

Gracia et Pax lubeltri,

I am not a huge fan of the "Novus Ordo" and attend an Indult Parish but I don't have any real issues with Opus Dei. That said I don't know any Opus Dei members and haven't studied their material but I still don't see why this is a issue on an Orthodox Forum. To me this seems like Catholic bashing by those who already oppose the Catholic Church on a number of theological and dogmatic issues. Perhaps because of Opus Dei's zeal for their Faith they are seen by the larger populace as 'fanatics'. That seems to be what some are insinuating on this forum. I still don't know why Opus Dei is an issue with Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2008, 05:41:02 PM »

FWIW, there are a lot of "traditionalist" Catholics that have issues with Opus Dei as well.

I'm just pointing out that criticism  of the group is not limited to progressive or nominal Catholics.

That is true. They see Opus Dei as too wedded to the Novus Ordo (even if reverently celebrated). Opus Dei is seen to follow the Pope in everything---thus the enthusiastic adoption of the Novus Ordo and the enthusiastic adoption of the "Benedictine" altar arrangement which the Holy Father instituted at his Masses after he became Pontiff. Thus their embrace of John Paul II's promotion of the "universal call to holiness." Traditionalists generally distrust the lay movements that have boomed over the last 60 years---Opus Dei, Regnum Christi, Communion and Liberation, Focolare, etc.

Gracia et Pax lubeltri,

I am not a huge fan of the "Novus Ordo" and attend an Indult Parish but I don't have any real issues with Opus Dei. That said I don't know any Opus Dei members and haven't studied their material but I still don't see why this is a issue on an Orthodox Forum. To me this seems like Catholic bashing by those who already oppose the Catholic Church on a number of theological and dogmatic issues. Perhaps because of Opus Dei's zeal for their Faith they are seen by the larger populace as 'fanatics'. That seems to be what some are insinuating on this forum. I still don't know why Opus Dei is an issue with Orthodoxy?

 And why would they ask about it here?  Simply because this is the Orthodox-Catholic discussion forum here on oc.net.  Why does everyone always turn to the "you're victimizing me or my group" when they feel backed into a corner or they can't provide answers in a debate or conversation.  Maybe if those asking the questions would receive some answers instead of being told they can't ask because they aren't Roman Catholic or told they were anti Catholic a greater understanding of Opus Dei would be the result.
Maybe because we aren't members of the Roman Catholic Church we aren't privy to knowing the messages and teachings of Opus Dei and and the message and teachings they have to direct people to salvation.  Is that what you are saying?  Are you saying there are levels of belonging and the more you move up the more the message is given to you on how to obtain salvation and those who aren't a part of the group aren't allowed to know this information the group is teaching on how to obtain eternal salvation?  Is that why we shouldn't ask about Opus Dei?
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« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2008, 05:49:44 PM »

FWIW, there are a lot of "traditionalist" Catholics that have issues with Opus Dei as well.

I'm just pointing out that criticism  of the group is not limited to progressive or nominal Catholics.

That is true. They see Opus Dei as too wedded to the Novus Ordo (even if reverently celebrated). Opus Dei is seen to follow the Pope in everything---thus the enthusiastic adoption of the Novus Ordo and the enthusiastic adoption of the "Benedictine" altar arrangement which the Holy Father instituted at his Masses after he became Pontiff. Thus their embrace of John Paul II's promotion of the "universal call to holiness." Traditionalists generally distrust the lay movements that have boomed over the last 60 years---Opus Dei, Regnum Christi, Communion and Liberation, Focolare, etc.

Gracia et Pax lubeltri,

I am not a huge fan of the "Novus Ordo" and attend an Indult Parish but I don't have any real issues with Opus Dei. That said I don't know any Opus Dei members and haven't studied their material but I still don't see why this is a issue on an Orthodox Forum. To me this seems like Catholic bashing by those who already oppose the Catholic Church on a number of theological and dogmatic issues. Perhaps because of Opus Dei's zeal for their Faith they are seen by the larger populace as 'fanatics'. That seems to be what some are insinuating on this forum. I still don't know why Opus Dei is an issue with Orthodoxy?

You've just admitted you really don't know anything about Opus Dei yourself but you as soon as someone questions it that isn't Roman Catholic you play the "they're just anti-Catholic" card.  So it is perfectly fine to be complacent or increase your knowledge about the Opus Dei as long as you are Roman Catholic. but on the other hand those that Roman Catholic aren't worthy or deserving to ask and learn? 
People are allowed to inquire into Opus Dei.   And why would they ask about it here?  Simply because this is the Orthodox-Catholic discussion forum here on oc.net.  Why does everyone always turn to the "you're victimizing me or my group" when they feel backed into a corner or they can't provide answers in a debate or conversation.  Maybe if those asking the questions would receive some answers instead of being told they can't ask because they aren't Roman Catholic or told they were anti Catholic a greater understanding of Opus Dei would be the result.
Maybe because we aren't members of the Roman Catholic Church we aren't privy to knowing the messages and teachings of Opus Dei and and the message and teachings they have to direct people to salvation.  Is that what you are saying?  There are levels of belonging and the more you move up the more the message is given to you on how to obtain salvation and those who aren't a part of the group aren't allowed to know this information the group is teaching on how to obtain eternal salvation?

How is starting a thread on an Orthodox Forum titled "Opus Dei: Controversial Inside and Outside the Catholic Church" inquiring? That is a claim not an inquiry.

BTW, I like Chuck Norris too. I met him once, he was very nice.
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« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2008, 05:53:16 PM »

Go back and read the original post. It explains where it came from. Any insights into my post beforehand? Thoughts, comments?

Yes CHUCK can!!!  that's neat you met Mr. Norris.
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« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2008, 05:56:16 PM »

If these practices make George think they are a "sick cult," I shudder to think of what he considers Mount Athos. I am surprised to hear from Orthodox criticisms about Opus Dei separating the sexes (except for the majority supernumeraries, who are married!), being strict, observing ascetic practices. What on Earth is wrong with that?
The fact that you even have to ask the question "what is wrong with that" only shows how far the Oddies have brainwashed you. You have just compared a lay University college for freshmen with an Athonite monastery and see no problem that it should be run like one.
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« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2008, 06:14:37 PM »

Considering the hysterical attitude many non-Catholics or nominal/progressive Catholics have towards the order, I can understand why they don't go about trumpeting themselves.

"Trumpeting oneself" is not the same as being deliberately secretive.

Quote
Personally, I have no idea why Orthodox Christians would give Opus Dei a second thought. It is a Catholic order---it has nothing to do with you, and you need not have contact with it.

If you like, you can go ahead and read what I wrote about this again.  Or you can simply ignore the point and carry on.

Quote
RE: the Jesuits---I was trying to say that they ALSO had a "controversial" reputation. Back when they were growing in numbers---which is the case today with Opus Dei.

I never agreed with you that they were "secretive and manipulative." In fact, I dispute that. Protestant legends---scary but with little basis in fact.

No, it is confirmed historical fact.  But I don't intend to argue with you about them here.  You can start another thread about them if you like.

Quote
I'm not trying to be snarky here. I'm just very mystified at the non-Catholics' interest in and accusations against Opus Dei. These are people I know---I don't see what is so controversial about them or their order.

Then may I suggest that you have blinders on.  As I have mentioned numerous times on this thread, accusations against them are numerous and well documented.  I'm sure there are good people involved in the order too.  No one ever said that the situation is black and white.
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