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Author Topic: St. Alexis Toth conversions: Demographic info  (Read 1455 times) Average Rating: 0
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jcb
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« on: November 24, 2008, 01:16:13 PM »

Hello,

Does anybody have any sources of information on the demographics of the conversions from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy associated with St. Alexis (Toth)?  I'm particularly interested in villages/counties of origin/return in Austro-Hungary.

Lemko Rusyn, if you get this message, I've asked on this board because I read your post with some breakdown (under the sui iuris discussion)--but have not been able to get in contact with you.

Thank you.
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 06:24:06 PM »

I know a parish near me that was brought into Russian Orthodoxy from Greek Catholicism from St. Alexis Toth's movement. 
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 04:26:04 PM »

Hello,

Does anybody have any sources of information on the demographics of the conversions from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy associated with St. Alexis (Toth)?  I'm particularly interested in villages/counties of origin/return in Austro-Hungary.

Lemko Rusyn, if you get this message, I've asked on this board because I read your post with some breakdown (under the sui iuris discussion)--but have not been able to get in contact with you.

Thank you.

If you are really serious just contact Prof. Robert Paul Magocsi at the University of Toronto.
Go to the www.utoronto.ca website for his exact postal address.
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2014, 10:14:38 AM »

Today the Church commemorates St. Alexis Toth, crusader against the Vatican.

Here's my question: Which parish in Minneapolis did he supposedly belong to? Does it still exist?

My information on him comes from here http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/05/07/101300-repose-of-st-alexis-toth-the-confessor-and-defender-of-orthodoxy
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 10:15:50 AM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2014, 10:18:57 AM »

Today the Church commemorates St. Alexis Toth, crusader against the Vatican.

Here's my question: Which parish in Minneapolis did he supposedly belong to? Does it still exist?

My information on him comes from here http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/05/07/101300-repose-of-st-alexis-toth-the-confessor-and-defender-of-orthodoxy

St. Mary's Greek Catholic Church, now St. Mary's Orthodox Cathedral: http://www.stmarysoca.org/about.html
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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2014, 10:33:01 AM »

My anecdotal understanding from reading parish records and histories and talking to people is that most were like him - from present day Slovakia and Zakarpatska oblast.  Few Galicians.  I don't have hard data on this however. 

You need to get in touch with John Schweich.  He has over 700 parish history books from Carpatho Rusyn parishes and can probably help you a lot.  He was featured in the most recent Byzantine Catholic newspaper.  I think he has both Catholic and Orthodox histories. 
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2014, 10:42:27 AM »

crusader against the Vatican.

LOL
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2014, 10:51:03 AM »

My anecdotal understanding from reading parish records and histories and talking to people is that most were like him - from present day Slovakia and Zakarpatska oblast.  Few Galicians.  I don't have hard data on this however.  

You need to get in touch with John Schweich.  He has over 700 parish history books from Carpatho Rusyn parishes and can probably help you a lot.  He was featured in the most recent Byzantine Catholic newspaper.  I think he has both Catholic and Orthodox histories.  

The majority of the founders of St. Marys in Minneapolis came from what is today northeast Slovakia. Many were from a cluster of villages near the Polish border: Becherov, Stebnik and Komlosha. My wife's and my mom's families are also from those villages and we both have distant cousins who belong there to St. Marys to this day. The relatives in Europe remained Greek Catholic. There is an Orthodox Church in Becherov which was funded between the wars by American ex-pats.
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2014, 10:53:54 AM »

My anecdotal understanding from reading parish records and histories and talking to people is that most were like him - from present day Slovakia and Zakarpatska oblast.  Few Galicians.  I don't have hard data on this however. 

You need to get in touch with John Schweich.  He has over 700 parish history books from Carpatho Rusyn parishes and can probably help you a lot.  He was featured in the most recent Byzantine Catholic newspaper.  I think he has both Catholic and Orthodox histories. 

John's records can be accessed through the Carpatho Rusyn Society in Pittsburgh.
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2014, 12:08:14 PM »


You beat me to it.  Good job!
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2014, 12:34:56 PM »

From the ACROD comes this brief bio of St. Alexis. http://www.acrod.org/readingroom/saints/stalexistoth
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2014, 12:42:34 PM »


It was intentional.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2014, 01:26:36 PM »

... St. Alexis Toth, crusader against the Vatican.

Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na... Alexis Toth!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtoMN_xi-AM  Grin
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2014, 02:48:52 PM »

^You remind me of my grandfather's generation back in the 1950's and 1960's when the Greek Catholics or the Orthodox would cross the street and spit on the ground as they passed their neighbor's or sister's Church.  Grow up.
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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2014, 02:56:49 PM »

^You remind me of my grandfather's generation back in the 1950's and 1960's when the Greek Catholics or the Orthodox would cross the street and spit on the ground as they passed their neighbor's or sister's Church.  Grow up.


Who are you talking to, and why?
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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2014, 09:17:20 PM »

^You remind me of my grandfather's generation back in the 1950's and 1960's when the Greek Catholics or the Orthodox would cross the street and spit on the ground as they passed their neighbor's or sister's Church.  Grow up.


Who are you talking to, and why?

I would assume griego catholico. He does have an arrow pointing up at the na na na na post
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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2014, 10:05:12 PM »

My anecdotal understanding from reading parish records and histories and talking to people is that most were like him - from present day Slovakia and Zakarpatska oblast.  Few Galicians.  I don't have hard data on this however. 

You need to get in touch with John Schweich.  He has over 700 parish history books from Carpatho Rusyn parishes and can probably help you a lot.  He was featured in the most recent Byzantine Catholic newspaper.  I think he has both Catholic and Orthodox histories. 
Yes, it depends how much research you want to do.

In general they were from the Rusyn and Galician lands. I expect they were spread out across those lands. If you made a map you would end up scattering dots across those lands in what would look to you like a random pattern.

My choir director's background was Carparthian Lemko from what is now Poland, and I had one friend whose family were Ukrainian Catholic and converted many decades ago in the US. Fr. Obushkevich was a priest who I perceive to be Galician and he was a leader in the Russian Brotherhood, but his parish chose to be Ukrainian Catholic. Yet he converted to Orthodoxy around the era of Alexis Toth, as did many others. I have another friend who as far as I know were already Orthodox but immigrated at that time period from Khmelnitsky region in Ukraine.

It would be very time consuming, if not impractical, to go across the US and map even half of the villages because there were very many of them. I have seen one such modern map of all Rusyn villages from that time period, and there could be hundreds, especially across Ukraine, Poland, and Slovakia, but a few in Hungary and Romania.
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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2014, 10:14:44 PM »

Don't forget the Ukrainian villages in south east Poland were destroyed during operation Vistula with many never being rebuilt. So it'd be hard to trace everyone's root yes.
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2014, 01:35:08 PM »

^You remind me of my grandfather's generation back in the 1950's and 1960's when the Greek Catholics or the Orthodox would cross the street and spit on the ground as they passed their neighbor's or sister's Church.  Grow up.


My dear Pod,

Despite our disagreements, I have regarded you as a voice of reason and one of the more level-headed members of this Forum, which is why I am surprised to read this blatantly judgmental comment.

You must have been having a bad day if you failed to see the humor behind the Batman theme video.
It was simply a light-hearted response to xOrthodox4Christx's comment of Fr. Toth as a "crusader against the Vatican" (i.e., Batman is the caped crusader).

1) I am neither from the 50's or '60's.
2) I would never ever spit at an Orthodox Church. To do so would against everything I have ever done in helping to bring about the reconciliation between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
3) If you knew who  I was and what I do, then I am sure you would never have made this comment.

Lighten up!  Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2014, 01:46:29 PM »

Don't forget the Ukrainian villages in south east Poland were destroyed during operation Vistula with many never being rebuilt. So it'd be hard to trace everyone's root yes.

Difficult, but possible. Most parish registers from the destroyed villages were carefully deposited in regional archives.  And lists of the deportees are accessible.

Plus, for the North American immigrants, their ship passenger lists provide village of origin. 

The old parish books here also name the village of origin of the family. 

So, while labor intensive in tracking al of the files down, it can be done.  One would need to be independently wealthy or have some sort of grant funding to do it though.
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2014, 04:03:07 PM »

^You remind me of my grandfather's generation back in the 1950's and 1960's when the Greek Catholics or the Orthodox would cross the street and spit on the ground as they passed their neighbor's or sister's Church.  Grow up.


My dear Pod,

Despite our disagreements, I have regarded you as a voice of reason and one of the more level-headed members of this Forum, which is why I am surprised to read this blatantly judgmental comment.

You must have been having a bad day if you failed to see the humor behind the Batman theme video.
It was simply a light-hearted response to xOrthodox4Christx's comment of Fr. Toth as a "crusader against the Vatican" (i.e., Batman is the caped crusader).

1) I am neither from the 50's or '60's.
2) I would never ever spit at an Orthodox Church. To do so would against everything I have ever done in helping to bring about the reconciliation between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
3) If you knew who  I was and what I do, then I am sure you would never have made this comment.

Lighten up!  Smiley

I get it now,  I missed the connection. But, you tend to the polemical here (understandably so in some cases), so  I jumped a bit.  Wink
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2014, 04:32:11 PM »

All this talk about the Carpatho Rusyns makes me want to take a trip to Slovakia.  I really love their architecture and their music. Perhaps, some day.
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2014, 05:10:19 PM »

Don't forget the Ukrainian villages in south east Poland were destroyed during operation Vistula with many never being rebuilt. So it'd be hard to trace everyone's root yes.

Difficult, but possible. Most parish registers from the destroyed villages were carefully deposited in regional archives.  And lists of the deportees are accessible.

Plus, for the North American immigrants, their ship passenger lists provide village of origin. 

The old parish books here also name the village of origin of the family. 

So, while labor intensive in tracking al of the files down, it can be done.  One would need to be independently wealthy or have some sort of grant funding to do it though.

I'm pretty certain the majority of the founders of St. Mary's in Father Toth's day were "Slovak" Rusyn Greek Catholics from Austria-Hungary and were not Galician. There were many parishes which were "mixed" between Rusyns and Galicians, but most split ethnically by 1920 due mostly to slight language differences and different chant traditions. Some stayed both Greek Catholic, others did not.

In.1902 a Rusyn Greek Catholic parish split off of St. Mary's.  It was St. John the Baptist G. C. Church http://stjohnsminneapolis.webs.com/parishhistory.htm

In 1907, a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, St. Constantine, split off of St. John's.http://www.stconstantine.org/OurParish/OurHistory/index.php

Thereafter, a number of Ukrainian Orthodox parishes were formed. I shall leave figuring out their circumstances of founding to others.

This script is common in Slavic parish histories from the Great Lakes across the mid-Atlantic, through the center of it all (Pennsylvania)  and up into the northeast United States.
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2014, 10:33:02 AM »

3) If you knew who  I was and what I do, then I am sure you would never have made this comment.

I definitely need to hear more about this.
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