Author Topic: Will MOC come back?  (Read 1471 times)

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Offline mike

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Will MOC come back?
« on: December 12, 2009, 05:22:28 PM »
Machine translation:
Quote
Macedonian Orthodox Church (MPTS) would accept the status of autonomy, if it provides features autocephalous Church, Macedonian newspaper Dnevnik. According to the bishops MPTS will accept that status, despite four decades trying to obtain the status of autocephalous church. But everything depends on negotiations with the Serbian Orthodox Church (SPTS), which has the decisive word. The position of MPTS followed a day after a representative of the Russian Orthodox Church, Father Nikolai Balashov has offered the status of "independent church" be a solution to the dispute with the Patriarchate of Belgrade. According to Balashov one independent state must be "independent church" and below it should be understood process avtokefalnost.

On 7 December, Prime Minister of Macedonia D. Ivanov welcomed in his residency vice. Chairman of the Department for External Church Relations, Moscow Patriarchate to the proto. Nikolai Balashov, who visited Macedonia with the blessing of the Russian Patriarch Cyril. The conversation continued for more than an hour, among the topics discussed was the general Orthodox heritage of the two Slavic nations, the unresolved status of the Macedonian Orthodox Church and the days of Russian spiritual culture in Macedonia. Proto. Nikolai Balashov expressed desire of the Macedonian Church Moscow Patriarchate issue to be resolved and underlined the necessity of intensifying the dialogue with the Serbian Orthodox Church. MPTS is separated from the Serbian Orthodox Church in 1967 and announced avtokefalnost because that still is not recognized by other Orthodox churches.

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I don't understand the phrase, I've made bold. So they would agree to be an autonomous Church in only were they granted the same privileges as autocephalous Churches have? Or has it only been translated wrongly?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 05:23:17 PM by mike »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2009, 07:47:50 PM »
I don't understand the phrase, I've made bold. So they would agree to be an autonomous Church in only were they granted the same privileges as autocephalous Churches have? Or has it only been translated wrongly?

Here is the text of the Nis Agreement between the Serbian Orthodox Church and the Macedonian Orthodox Church, which the MOC later reneged on. It might shed some light on what the MOC actually wants.
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Offline mike

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 08:03:36 PM »
Do other Primates of the autonomous Churches commemorate Primates of the autocephalous Churches during the Great Entrance or is this unique only for the Ochrid Archbishopric? Does the current Arcbishop of Ochrid, John, rule the Church in such a way?
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2009, 08:09:50 PM »
Do other Primates of the autonomous Churches commemorate Primates of the autocephalous Churches during the Great Entrance or is this unique only for the Ochrid Archbishopric? Does the current Arcbishop of Ochrid, John, rule the Church in such a way?
An autonomous Chruch usually commemorates only the Primate of its mother Church. As you see under article 7 of the Nis Aggrement, the MOC was being permitted to commemorate the Primates of all autocephalous Churches, which is a feature of autocephaly rather than autonomy. So the Nis Agreement was quite generous I think, and yet was still renounced by the MOC, so I don't know what more "autocephalous features" they want.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 12:20:17 AM »
This is an absolutely reasonable accommodation by the Serbian Orthodox Church; most benevolent.  As a unilateral break away church, I think by rejecting this charter, the "Macedonians"  reveal a lot about themselves that is not positive.

I might kiddingly add, the Greeks would probably insist that it be commonly named, the
"Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia (FYROM) Orthodox Church."
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline stashko

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 09:02:17 AM »
This is an absolutely reasonable accommodation by the Serbian Orthodox Church; most benevolent.  As a unilateral break away church, I think by rejecting this charter, the "Macedonians"  reveal a lot about themselves that is not positive.

I might kiddingly add, the Greeks would probably insist that it be commonly named, the
"Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia (FYROM) Orthodox Church."


Curious ,Would the Greeks still be offended if they called themselfs slavic Macedonians ....I once ran across a Greek macedonian .But still haven't seen many greek macedonians they must exist.... ???
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 09:03:18 AM by stashko »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2009, 09:18:36 AM »
I'm Greek and I'm not offended by the use of the name "Macedonian". There's an Athens in Texas, so the name is not the issue. The issue has been territorial claim. It would be like Canada calling itself "North Dakota"
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2009, 09:35:01 AM »
I'm Greek and I'm not offended by the use of the name "Macedonian". There's an Athens in Texas, so the name is not the issue. The issue has been territorial claim. It would be like Canada calling itself "North Dakota"

LOL.  Why would they want to do that?
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Offline stashko

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2009, 09:38:03 AM »
I'm Greek and I'm not offended by the use of the name "Macedonian". There's an Athens in Texas, so the name is not the issue. The issue has been territorial claim. It would be like Canada calling itself "North Dakota"

Why don't the Greek people start moving to all parts of macedoinia and become a majority ,so that  majority rules, wouldn't that be one peacefull way of reclaiming what was yours...
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2009, 09:42:06 AM »
Do other Primates of the autonomous Churches commemorate Primates of the autocephalous Churches during the Great Entrance or is this unique only for the Ochrid Archbishopric? Does the current Arcbishop of Ochrid, John, rule the Church in such a way?
No, they usually don't. The problem in this case is the Ochrid is an autocephalous Church that was "abolished" for the EP by command of the Sultan after nearly a thousand years, and is the mother of the Serbian Patriarchate.  When the Serbian Church was reunited in 1920, the EP transferred his claim to Belgrad.  However, Ochrid had already joined the Bulgarian Exarchate half a century earlier, and it got involved in the problems of jurisdiction of the Bulgarian Exarchate.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2009, 09:43:45 AM »
I'm Greek and I'm not offended by the use of the name "Macedonian". There's an Athens in Texas, so the name is not the issue. The issue has been territorial claim. It would be like Canada calling itself "North Dakota"

Why don't the Greek people start moving to all parts of macedoinia and become a majority ,so that  majority rules, wouldn't that be one peacefull way of reclaiming what was yours...
They tried that in the waning days of the Ottomans, with bloody results.

Today they would also have to start having babies rather than aborting them. As it is, the whole place might become Albanian and Turkish and solve the problem.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline stashko

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2009, 09:48:19 AM »
I'm Greek and I'm not offended by the use of the name "Macedonian". There's an Athens in Texas, so the name is not the issue. The issue has been territorial claim. It would be like Canada calling itself "North Dakota"

Why don't the Greek people start moving to all parts of macedoinia and become a majority ,so that  majority rules, wouldn't that be one peacefull way of reclaiming what was yours...
They tried that in the waning days of the Ottomans, with bloody results.

Today they would also have to start having babies rather than aborting them. As it is, the whole place might become Albanian and Turkish and solve the problem.

This i agree with 100%.....
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Will MOC come back?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2009, 02:02:14 PM »
I'm Greek and I'm not offended by the use of the name "Macedonian". There's an Athens in Texas, so the name is not the issue. The issue has been territorial claim. It would be like Canada calling itself "North Dakota"

Why don't the Greek people start moving to all parts of macedoinia and become a majority ,so that  majority rules, wouldn't that be one peacefull way of reclaiming what was yours...
They tried that in the waning days of the Ottomans, with bloody results.

Today they would also have to start having babies rather than aborting them. As it is, the whole place might become Albanian and Turkish and solve the problem.

This i agree with 100%.....
I'm not sure what you both mean. Ethnic Greeks are by far the vast majority in Greek Macedonia. The concern is not Albanians or Turks who have made no claims on the territory, but the neighbouring Slavic Orthodox FYROM who have made territorial claims.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 02:19:45 PM by ozgeorge »
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