OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 01, 2014, 10:53:32 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: An Outsider's Impressions of Orthodoxy  (Read 31629 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,657


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2008, 04:17:23 PM »

The Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim presence in Albania have joined together to try and keep Christian missions out of Albania.  This would result in an end to the education, training, feeding and other social assistance that missions provides all the people of that country with no matter of their religious affiliation.  This is not designed to replace the existing, indigenous Christian presence and in most cases works along with those churches when they are willing to cooperate.

With regard to the social assistance that is provided without regard to religious affiliation, if it is truly given out to people without first requiring a conversion to Protestantism, then it is the first of its kind that I have heard of.  Protestants who do "missions" work among the Armenians, for example, are notorious for holding back on aid without first getting the recipients to leave the Orthodox Church.  This goes way back.  Before the Genocide, Protestants built a school in my grandfather's village and then required those who wanted to enroll their children to first convert to their church.  A friend of mine a couple of years ago went along on a missions trip with a Protestant friend and the friend's church.  She was disgusted at how they used money and other aid to get converts.  She and her friend were specifically instructed to not give out anything to people who were not Protestant.  These sorts of stories are common, and have given the Protestants a bad name over there.

One thing I hear repeatedly from these people is how they are "just plain Christian," how they are not interested in sheep stealing, rather they just want to tell people about Christ, etc.  They say that the Orthodox are not preaching Christ at all, and the only way people will hear about Christ is through them.

Their actions, however, show how disingenuous they are.  They very aggressively proselytize, and even tell lies about the Orthodox Church in order to make conversions.  They are not telling the truth when they say the Orthodox are not preaching Christ.  The reality is that the Orthodox in the twentieth century have given the world the greatest witness to Christ and His truth, through martyrdom on a scale the Protestants cannot even conceive.

Forgive me if I sound irritated, but I've dealt with this "missions" issue among my own people and have become thoroughly disgusted by what I have seen.  Perhaps the thing that turns me off the most is the way the "missionaries" constantly put down the Orthodox.  They tell anecdotes that make the Orthodox seem incompetent, or disinterested in Christ, or nasty.  Both you and David have done this in this thread, and I've seen it and heard it done countless times elsewhere.  This is used as an excuse for the missions work.  Well, for every anecdote you can tell about the Orthodox, I could tell three about Protestants who are as bad or worse.  But what is the point?  We all have people in our churches who are spiritually weak.  As Christ said in Matthew 7, you have no right pointing out the problems of another when you have so many of your own.  And the Protestants have many.

Another thing that irritates me about those doing "missions" work among my people, is the way they start off by saying "We're all the same.  We are all Christians."  That is how they get their foot in the door with Orthodox Christians who don't know better.  But then once they have their attention, they twist what the Orthodox Church teaches, or tell outright lies about what we believe, in order to make the conversions.  If I had a dollar for every time I had to answer a Protestant who was relating some ridiculous lie about my Church, I'd be rich enough to buy an island.  Now granted the Protestants are not the only ones who lie about my Church, or who twist what we believe.  There is a guy on this board who is not a Protestant and who does that, but that's in a different context, and I tend to not experience it as much from nonProtestants.  

Now this is my experience with people who proselytize among the Armenians.  I admit that I have not dealt with those who go to Albania.  However, I would be surprised if things were different there.  I see too much in your posts and David's posts that remind me of the kind of rubbish that I hear from the ones I have known.  As I said, you need to take care of your own church's many problems before starting in on our sheep.  



Logged

Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2008, 04:43:34 PM »



It's all one Church and a chance to broaden your horizon.

It is heterodoxy to claim that God does not work through all creation and that acts performed through faith in Christ are not valid. 

The correct statement would be there is no need to claim Chrisimation is somehow a recognition of the "validity" of the so-called heterodox baptism (by the heretic oxgeorge) since despite some variations in practice, it does not affect the substance of the mystery and any Orthodox Christian can say that baptism makes a Catholic a Christian according to the standing conference of the the canonical Orthodox bishops in the Americas.

Yes, Satan is pretty active in sowing the weeds among the wheat isn't he? He's lucky to have such willing helpers.

Yes, but despite your insulting Christian missionaries, Orthodoxy will still appear as Christ-like to followers of His Great Commission.
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2008, 04:54:13 PM »



It's all one Church and a chance to broaden your horizon.

Branch theory heresy.  Yawn.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2008, 05:11:43 PM »


They tell anecdotes that make the Orthodox seem incompetent, or disinterested in Christ, or nasty.  Both you and David have done this in this thread, and I've seen it and heard it done countless times elsewhere.  


Salpy,

I don't understand how Orthodox bishops can be so open and loving, and welcoming to all people that love Christ, while people on this forum can make Orthodoxy seem so negative.  I am working on a seminary project for missions development and the Lord connected me to David.  I find his posts very open and positive.  His agency has done amazing things for the people in Albania.

As an Orthodox working towards ordination, I have offered my services to David in the future.  Having people that love both the Church and those that are trying to do Christ's work and working together for His glory are what is called for in the Gospel.  It is the salt and light that might attract people to Orthodoxy instead of calling others heretics and trying to appear as holier than thou, which just divides. 

I was baptized Catholic and lived for a time with a Greek Orthodox family that took me in when my family was homeless.  The father of the family was an Orthodox priest that gave me his seminary crucifix, which is one of the greatest gifts I ever received.  I went on to be mentored in school by another Greek priest, and my path took me through a few denominations while gaining experience in ministry and learning how to serve the Lord.  I became Orthodox out of the love, holiness and beauty the Church offers, nit because somebody told me all other Christians are heretics.  Metropolitan Jonah's word struck me when he said that we should take all the experiences and all the knowledge we have gathered in other Christian churches and have them Chrismated with us and bring that experience to Orthodoxy.  That Christ-like attitude is sometimes lacking in this forum, and I hope non-Orthodox members will see the beauty in Orthodox and not let the self dogmatic exclusionary attitudes turn you away.



Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2008, 05:12:58 PM »



It's all one Church and a chance to broaden your horizon.

Branch theory heresy.  Yawn.

So now the Orthodox Church is not one church?
Get thee to a library.
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2008, 05:17:59 PM »

Their actions, however, show how disingenuous they are.  They very aggressively proselytize, and even tell lies about the Orthodox Church in order to make conversions.  They are not telling the truth when they say the Orthodox are not preaching Christ.  

And that's because they have the father of lies as their father.



It's all one Church and a chance to broaden your horizon.

Branch theory heresy.  Yawn.

So now the Orthodox Church is not one church?
Get thee to a library.
You don't even realize the grave heresy of Branch Theory you espouse. You are an ecclesiological mess and you still claim to be "Christian"!
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2008, 05:24:37 PM »

You either are jumping on my posts too fast to read them, or have no clue what branch theory represents.

My comment was regarding the Orthodox Church and jurisdictions being all one church.  It was satire.

The heresy peanut galley people need to add some dairy to your Advent fast.  It's like a scene from Monty Python.
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2008, 05:38:59 PM »

And that's because they have the father of lies as their father.


I invite you to show me where I have said anything negative regarding my own church not preaching the true teaching of Christ, or priests not being faithful servants.

Consider that it is a true heresy to use affiliation with the church as an excuse for hatred.  You two have filled in between the lines that I am a devil worshiper (AKA non-Orthodox) because I agree in the work to support the unreached and bring them the Gospel.  You speak from the borrowed wisdom of dusty antidotes as wisdom.  Try praying for those that you perceive to be your enemy and those that are in need of missions, or actually doing something about it like David has done.
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2008, 05:45:37 PM »

My comment was regarding the Orthodox Church and jurisdictions being all one church.  It was satire.
And a very stupid attempt at satire since we actually are one Church- One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
You are an outsider.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2008, 05:59:46 PM »

I invite you to show me where I have said anything negative regarding my own church not preaching the true teaching of Christ, or priests not being faithful servants.
How's this for starters:



Heresy No. 1. You are a Branch Theorist:

It's all one Church and a chance to broaden your horizon.


Heresy No. 2: You believe Creation is equal to the Uncreated:

We are all brothers to the Creator.


Heresy No. 3: You believe the Mysteries can exist outside of the Church:

You are actually diminishing the reach of the Church that your profess to promote.  I would suggest starting with a publication from St Vladmir's regarding Sacramental Economy before proclaiming who is a Christian when you set personal parameters (as a beginning).
It is heterodoxy to claim that God does not work through all creation and that acts performed through faith in Christ are not valid. 




Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2008, 06:13:14 PM »

My comment was regarding the Orthodox Church and jurisdictions being all one church.  It was satire.
And a very stupid attempt at satire since we actually are one Church- One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
You are an outsider.

Coming from you, I accept that compliment.
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2008, 06:25:48 PM »

Coming from you, I accept that compliment.
Which is why you remain in darkness and error.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2008, 06:27:13 PM »

I invite you to show me where I have said anything negative regarding my own church not preaching the true teaching of Christ, or priests not being faithful servants.
How's this for starters:



Heresy No. 1. You are a Branch Theorist:

It's all one Church and a chance to broaden your horizon.


Heresy No. 2: You believe Creation is equal to the Uncreated:

We are all brothers to the Creator.


Heresy No. 3: You believe the Mysteries can exist outside of the Church:

You are actually diminishing the reach of the Church that your profess to promote.  I would suggest starting with a publication from St Vladmir's regarding Sacramental Economy before proclaiming who is a Christian when you set personal parameters (as a beginning).
It is heterodoxy to claim that God does not work through all creation and that acts performed through faith in Christ are not valid. 






You can't have it both ways with the branch theory.  It's either satire or heresy, and I already stated that it was satire.

If you mean to tell me that God does not love all of His creatures, and does not wish for us all to be part of His kingdom then you are starting to sound like a heretic, or worse "a Calvinist" in which case Salpy is bundling the kindling for your stake.

St. Vladmir is an Orthodox seminary that published the work on Sacramental Economy based on Catholic Baptism deemed recognized by the Orthodox Bishops of North America.  I only stated their findings so save the claim of heresy for the bishops.

It is a cornerstone of Orthodox Pastoral Theology that God works through all of creation.  Try reading some Old Testament tonight and not finding example of this.

My brothers, I am off to serve at Solemn Vespers and am anxious to tell the congregation of my new found friends and how I am now "Hening the Outsider".

Praying for your hearts to open towards people living without the Gospel.......

Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2008, 06:28:34 PM »

As an Orthodox working towards ordination, I have offered my services to David in the future. 
Pray tell, who is your Bishop?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2008, 06:28:58 PM »

I'm sorry.....forgot

You have failed to show me where I commented against the Orthodox Church, or the priests that serve throughout the world.

Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2008, 06:33:03 PM »

As an Orthodox working towards ordination, I have offered my services to David in the future. 
Pray tell, who is your Bishop?

My brother,

There currently is no bishop assigned to New England, but Metropolitan Philip Saliba is currently presiding until a bishop is found. (The Church is praying to find a bishop for the area).

Back tomorrow....
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2008, 06:34:28 PM »

As an Orthodox working towards ordination, I have offered my services to David in the future. 
Pray tell, who is your Bishop?

My brother,

There currently is no bishop assigned to New England, but Metropolitan Philip Saliba is currently presiding until a bishop is found. (The Church is praying to find a bishop for the area).

Back tomorrow....

That explains much. Thank you!
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2008, 06:36:12 PM »

I'm sorry.....forgot

You have failed to show me where I commented against the Orthodox Church, or the priests that serve throughout the world.

See above heresies.
Heresy is incompatible with Orthodoxy.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2008, 06:55:51 PM »

Metropolitan Jonah's word struck me when he said that we should take all the experiences and all the knowledge we have gathered in other Christian churches and have them Chrismated with us and bring that experience to Orthodoxy

Emphasis mine.
Now since you are so interested in missionary work, perhaps you'd like to put your money where your mouth is and help out here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15199.msg275089.html#msg275089

 Smiley
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,864



« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2008, 07:05:03 PM »

The Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim presence in Albania have joined together to try and keep Christian missions out of Albania.  This would result in an end to the education, training, feeding and other social assistance that missions provides all the people of that country with no matter of their religious affiliation.  This is not designed to replace the existing, indigenous Christian presence and in most cases works along with those churches when they are willing to cooperate.

With regard to the social assistance that is provided without regard to religious affiliation, if it is truly given out to people without first requiring a conversion to Protestantism, then it is the first of its kind that I have heard of.  Protestants who do "missions" work among the Armenians, for example, are notorious for holding back on aid without first getting the recipients to leave the Orthodox Church.  This goes way back.  Before the Genocide, Protestants built a school in my grandfather's village and then required those who wanted to enroll their children to first convert to their church.  A friend of mine a couple of years ago went along on a missions trip with a Protestant friend and the friend's church.  She was disgusted at how they used money and other aid to get converts.  She and her friend were specifically instructed to not give out anything to people who were not Protestant.  These sorts of stories are common, and have given the Protestants a bad name over there.

One thing I hear repeatedly from these people is how they are "just plain Christian," how they are not interested in sheep stealing, rather they just want to tell people about Christ, etc.  They say that the Orthodox are not preaching Christ at all, and the only way people will hear about Christ is through them.

Their actions, however, show how disingenuous they are.  They very aggressively proselytize, and even tell lies about the Orthodox Church in order to make conversions.  They are not telling the truth when they say the Orthodox are not preaching Christ.  The reality is that the Orthodox in the twentieth century have given the world the greatest witness to Christ and His truth, through martyrdom on a scale the Protestants cannot even conceive.

Forgive me if I sound irritated, but I've dealt with this "missions" issue among my own people and have become thoroughly disgusted by what I have seen.  Perhaps the thing that turns me off the most is the way the "missionaries" constantly put down the Orthodox.  They tell anecdotes that make the Orthodox seem incompetent, or disinterested in Christ, or nasty.  Both you and David have done this in this thread, and I've seen it and heard it done countless times elsewhere.  This is used as an excuse for the missions work.  Well, for every anecdote you can tell about the Orthodox, I could tell three about Protestants who are as bad or worse.  But what is the point?  We all have people in our churches who are spiritually weak.  As Christ said in Matthew 7, you have no right pointing out the problems of another when you have so many of your own.  And the Protestants have many.

Another thing that irritates me about those doing "missions" work among my people, is the way they start off by saying "We're all the same.  We are all Christians."  That is how they get their foot in the door with Orthodox Christians who don't know better.  But then once they have their attention, they twist what the Orthodox Church teaches, or tell outright lies about what we believe, in order to make the conversions.  If I had a dollar for every time I had to answer a Protestant who was relating some ridiculous lie about my Church, I'd be rich enough to buy an island.  Now granted the Protestants are not the only ones who lie about my Church, or who twist what we believe.  There is a guy on this board who is not a Protestant and who does that, but that's in a different context, and I tend to not experience it as much from nonProtestants.  

Now this is my experience with people who proselytize among the Armenians.  I admit that I have not dealt with those who go to Albania.  However, I would be surprised if things were different there.  I see too much in your posts and David's posts that remind me of the kind of rubbish that I hear from the ones I have known.  As I said, you need to take care of your own church's many problems before starting in on our sheep.  





I pass by an Armenian PROTESTANT (I think the sign says "Reformed," "Evangelical" or some such thing) which looks EXACTLY like a traditional Armenian church.  One day I might take a peek inside.  Interesting how they got the form down, but not the content.

I've only known one Armenian Protestant, from Syria (I met him in Chicago, though).  He claimed that the Armenian Protestants saw themselves as only "reforming" the Armenian church, which they planned one being reunified with.  On whose terms?

One of the pillars of our Church is an Armenian convert.  His family had converted to Protestantanism.  His wife was a Polish Protestant.  He and the wife stumpled on Orthodoxy (EO) and converted.  He then got his parents to convert, though they went OO (fine by me).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2008, 07:07:40 PM »


With regard to the social assistance that is provided without regard to religious affiliation, if it is truly given out to people without first requiring a conversion to Protestantism, then it is the first of its kind that I have heard of.  Protestants who do "missions" work among the Armenians, for example, are notorious for holding back on aid without first getting the recipients to leave the Orthodox Church.  

They tell anecdotes that make the Orthodox seem incompetent, or disinterested in Christ, or nasty.  Both you and David have done this in this thread, ...I see too much in ... David's posts that remind me of the kind of rubbish that I hear from the ones I have known.  

Then let this be the first of its kind that you have heard. We have looked after Moslem refugees from Kosova in Albania, and after their return followed them and raised financial and practical help in re-building their burnt homes. We also set up a camp with a psychiatrist to seek to comfort and strengthen people who were traumatised by the war. Friendships remain; I do not know of any Moslems whom we helped becoming Christian. No requirement was made that they should.

In Albania our missionaries have opened and run two orphanages for abandoned children of Albanian or gypsy background. No requirement was made for any prior conversion from Islam, Orthodoxy or Catholicism, from the children (those who were old enough to understand - some were babes) or their families.

I doubt that these really are the first examples: they may be the first you have heard of.

There are (surely you will know) Orthodox who are indeed incompetent, uninterested in Christ, or nasty. There are many people of any faith who fall into those categories, including Protestants. I hope I have never relayed anecdotes other than about events I have experienced myself, or had related to me by people directly involved. You have read what I have written about the less attractive examples of Orthodoxy because the thread is about impressions of Orthodoxy. Elsewhere (not on this forum, for it would be irrelevant) I have written with equal disappointment about some less attractive examples among Evangelicals. I am not saying that either branch of Christianity (if you accept that they both are) always produce bad examples and no good ones of warm, saintly disciples. My 'anecdotes', whether about Orthodox (as, naturally, on this forum) or about people closer to my own persuasion, are descriptive of some cases, not an assessment of the inward and permanent character of any particular system of belief.

By all means disagree with me - after all, the forum is called a "discussion". But as the scripture requires us to believe all things and to hope all things, please try to adopt the best possible interpretation of my intentions and to set aside the worst possible which suggest themselves.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2008, 07:19:16 PM »

As an aside, I'm not familiar with the Albanian region of Kosova.  Is that across the border from the similarly named Serbian province of Kosovo i Metohija?
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2008, 07:24:26 PM »

As an aside, I'm not familiar with the Albanian region of Kosova.  Is that across the border from the similarly named Serbian province of Kosovo i Metohija?

 Cheesy

And as for the rest, it's called "grooming".
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 07:33:33 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2008, 09:15:01 AM »

Metropolitan Jonah's word struck me when he said that we should take all the experiences and all the knowledge we have gathered in other Christian churches and have them Chrismated with us and bring that experience to Orthodoxy

Emphasis mine.
Now since you are so interested in missionary work, perhaps you'd like to put your money where your mouth is and help out here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15199.msg275089.html#msg275089

 Smiley

My wife and I have helped to support two young men in this country (Philippines) from when they were nine years old, and they are now nineteen.  These boys and their families had very little at the time, and have since received medical care, an education, food, and gifts that we send along on holidays.  We would have done more, but we are raising four of our own. 





 
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2008, 09:20:43 AM »

I was just thinking that since you are so keen to support Baptist Missionaries to countries with established Orthodox Churches, you might want to help an Orthodox Missionary effort in a country where the people are struggling to establish the Orthodox Church...but I guess you don't. Smiley
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 09:26:24 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2008, 02:05:45 PM »

I was just thinking that since you are so keen to support Baptist Missionaries to countries with established Orthodox Churches, you might want to help an Orthodox Missionary effort in a country where the people are struggling to establish the Orthodox Church...but I guess you don't. Smiley

My humble church is presently building a new sacristy and trying to purchase a building next door to provide space for counseling and other services. I confess that has taken up much of my time and treasure.  The church was originally a congregational assembly, and the men of the parish have had the task of transforming it for Orthodox worship (a loving work in progress).

I have in fact contacted www.ocmc.org regarding their work in Albania in order to see if I might be able to learn more about their missions presence.

I will keep the Philippines Orthodox presence in my prayers, and hopefully will be able to find a way to support them thanks to your suggested list. 

There might have been a nuance to my interest in missions that has not been expressed, and that is bringing Christ to Islam.  If you get a chance, take a look at this site and available free materials  www.fatherzakaria.net  I am very impressed by the work of Father Zakaria Botras.

Shalom....
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2008, 12:13:20 AM »

I have been thinking about some of the posts about evangelicals not giving Orthodox lands time for the Church to get on its feet after communism and going in as missionaries.

I think they honestly did not even consider Orthodoxy. For them they were going to former communist lands and evangelizing secularized or atheistic people. Evangelicals had about as much awareness of Orthodoxy in the eastern bloc countries as they do here in the USA.

We're not just the best kept secret in America; we are the best kept secret everywhere!

Perhaps we need a little less "come and see" evangelistic method and a good bit more "show and tell"!
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,335


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2008, 01:37:55 AM »

The correct statement would be there is no need to claim Chrisimation is somehow a recognition of the "validity" of the so-called heterodox baptism (by the heretic oxgeorge) since despite some variations in practice, it does not affect the substance of the mystery and any Orthodox Christian can say that baptism makes a Catholic a Christian according to the standing conference of the the canonical Orthodox bishops in the Americas.
Since when did SCOBA become our infallible dogmatic authority?  If they really said this, then they are wrong.
Logged
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2008, 01:31:55 PM »

And as for the rest, it's called "grooming".
That is a bit cynical, surely! Whilst only God knows what our true motivation is, I sustain at least the hope that my colleagues who have been active in ministry to the sick, abandoned, homeless and traumatised in the Balkans have done so because they sought to be channels of God's unconditional love, a sincere attempt to imitate Him whose compassion is over all that he has made.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2008, 01:33:50 PM »

Kosova.  Is that across the border from the similarly named Serbian province of Kosovo i Metohija?
The thread is about theology, not politics.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:34:42 PM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #75 on: December 11, 2008, 01:45:35 PM »

Kosova.  Is that across the border from the similarly named Serbian province of Kosovo i Metohija?
The thread is about theology, not politics.

Then I suggest that:
A) You do not take a political stance by calling it "Kosova in Albania", and
B) You get to know your audience, and not say things which insult them. Our Orthodox Churches, Shrines, Monasteries and cemetaries have been systematically descrecrated in Kosovo, and Orthodox Christians have been persecuted, killed and driven out of there in their tens of thousands.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #76 on: December 11, 2008, 05:00:04 PM »

I suggest that:
A) You do not take a political stance by calling it "Kosova in Albania", and
I think I have only ever written Kosova and Albania not "in Albania", for we all know that Kosova has never been in the modern state of Albania. If I have ever written "Kosova in Albania", then it was a gross and culpable misprint which I would wish to delete, and for which I apologise unreservedly.

The offending phrase was presumably Moslem refugees from Kosova in Albania. I meant, Moslem refugees, who came from Kosova to Albania [during the 1998-9 war].

One problem is, how can anyone even refer to the place without being, intentionally or otherwise, political? If I call it Kosovo, I come down on the Serbian side; if I write Kosova, I use the Albanian form. Similarly, the older terms the Kosmet and Old Serbia.

As I may have said before on these forums, before the 1998-9 war I preached or worshippped at a church in the capital where Serbs and Albanians worshipped together. Today, I know of nowhere where that still happens, Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant.

However, let me put in the plea that we keep to theological discussion, and keep off the theme of politics, on this thread. There must be a range of other websites where political discussion is the theme.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 05:02:38 PM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #77 on: December 11, 2008, 05:29:07 PM »

The bread and wine are themselves the κοινονια, or "particpation in," or "fellowshipping with" the Body and Blood of Christ Himself; Evangelical churches believe that the bread and the wine are devoid of any such participation in divine reality, do they not? 

Very interesting thoughts. I hope (and believe) there will be, or somewhere already is, a thread on sacramental theology. When I find it, let's continue the discussion there.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,879


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #78 on: December 11, 2008, 07:18:33 PM »

Readers may find it useful to know that the Slavic name Kosovo is derived from the earlier Greek term Kossyphopedion, meaning field of starlings.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 07:18:57 PM by LBK » Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2008, 11:50:20 PM »


Heresy No. 2: You believe Creation is equal to the Uncreated:

We are all brothers to the Creator.

I think he meant that in the eyes of the Uncreated we are all brothers - to the Uncreated, we are all brothers.

I don't think he meant that we are brothers of the Uncreated (to the Uncreated) in the sense that you took him to mean.

Some of his posts are a little hard to figure out (and I personally hate all this nested quoting - to me it makes it much harder to follow a discussion - but that is (literally) the topic of another thread) but I can catch the spirit of what he is saying.

In an ex-communist and currently islam-influenced country Christians of all communions should be working together in many of the ministries that the original poster is involved in - many social and counseling ministries that all Christians can agree upon.

Also, better to come to know Christ as a baptist, sacramentally and ecclesially deficient in our eyes, that to remain and atheist or muslim.

[If some of our people are also attracted to that, so be it - freedom of religion. Over time, some of theirs will convert to Orthodoxy, so it's a wash -this last thought my own, not my interpretation of what he was trying to say]

I also do not think he was trying to promote branch theory so much as (looking at all his posts and replies) there is one true Church - the Orthodox Church in all its jurisdictions. But we are all Christians, although some are deficient sacramentally and ecclesially.

Just as an aside, I think it is important to try harder on this forum to understand what the person is trying to say although they may not be saying it well.

Some people type to fast, their thoughts spilling out faster than they can adequately type or communicate in a nuanced form; others are just poor self-editors - they know what they are trying to say and assume they have adequately said it  and assume others will understand; and maybe some people just don't take the time to modify their posts (maybe they never read them after they hit the save button.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 12:05:06 AM by BrotherAidan » Logged
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2008, 01:58:20 AM »

Brother Aidan,

I feel bad that it appears the ability to express myself is lacking.  During the long run of posting gun battles this past Saturday,  I was in the process of memorizing Scripture for an assignment so it might have been more of split brain syndrome?  I do appreciate your attempt to explain some of my statements, and giving me the benefit of the doubt. 

Someone that I respect and admire suggested that I join the forum.  I took that as an opportunity to share some of the insights that are drawing me towards missions work, and to share the joy in discussing the common experiences that loving Christ brings.  It was a bit of a surprise to find some of the bigotry that exists.

My comment that we are all brothers to the Creator has more to do with God's desire for all creation to be reconciled to Him.  We would all be unreached if it wasn't for missionaries like David. 

I have come to Orthodoxy through what I believe is a path cleared by God.  That does not make the people outside of Orthodoxy, who have served as guides along that long and winding road any less loved by Christ.  Your thoughts about coming to know Christ as a member of another Church were not meant to reflect mine, but they do.

I especially like your point, "But we are all Christians, although some are deficient sacramentally and ecclesially [ecclesiastically?]."  As someone that is a sinner and deficient (sans heretic and sower of Satan among the wheat) , I rely on my brothers, and all those that live to imitate Christ to keep my focus on His kingdom come.

Shalom...



Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2008, 11:48:01 AM »

There was a house in Tirana where a woman had icons. They found out and came for them. When they left, she went after them to say there was still one more icon. Then she made the sign of the cross on herself. ‘I am the icon of the cross. Take me.’ But they decided she was crazy, and so she wasn’t arrested.

Elizabeta Xhokaxhi in The Resurrection of the Church in Albania

How many of us live in such a way that we can be called an icon of the Cross?

Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #82 on: February 09, 2009, 06:43:44 AM »

Wow! My simple Baptist soul is reeling under an overload of new impressions.

As you know if you've been reading my posts, I spoke 2 or 3 weeks ago at the evening service of a Pentecostal church in South Wales, and yesterday morning I attended our nearest Orthodox church, just across the border in England. I said the Pentecostal was 'alien' (I think) to what I'm used to, but the Orthodox was entirely new. Let me explain...

Forty years ago I was attending a Baptist church on its last legs (it eventually closed when thieves stole the lead roof) which had no evening service, and I used to drive regularly to a nearby town and attend the Pentecostal, or sometimes the Pentecostal in my own (then) town. There was very little difference between Baptist and Pentecostal services in those far-off days, except the Pente's put rather more vigour in it. But now in what was a large redundant Baptist church, I find they have removed the pulpit and replaced it with musical instruments; the pastor took little or no part other than to give some notices and speak once in prayer; the service was led by one or two young musicians, and consisted of 30-40 minutes of repetitious singing of brief choruses, followed by me, speaking about God's work among Albanians (presumably in lieu of a usual sermon). No reading from scripture at all. There was no period of communal speaking in tongues which I have experienced occasionally in Pentecostal services. Very unlike our service yesterday evening, at my usual Baptist, of four good, full-of-thought-and-truth hymns, prayer, scripture reading, and 30 minutes of pastor explaining and applying in a stirring manner the teaching on the Last Judgement in last section of the Book of Malachi.

Yesterday morning, as our church had an event I was unable to attend without leaving part-way through, I took the opportunity to drive over to Handbridge for Hours (10.30) and Divine Liturgy (11.00). My three main impressions were:

- the friendliness and welcome of the people, including the priest
- the fact that almost everything was intoned rather than sung or spoken in a normal voice
- the impression that we were all watching something which other people were doing.

Let me say more...

I couldn't make out the purpose of Hours. It consisted of the priest's wife intoning from a book, whilst a small number of people (4 or 5?) sat on the wall-bench and listened. The priest was behind the iconostasis. It wasn't plain to me, as an outsider, what was supposed to be happening.

The Liturgy consisted of 3, later augmented to 4, people standing by a desk intoning all kinds of prayers and readings; various processions round the church; the priest and another man dressed in colourful robes. Now understand me: none of what I say is critical. I realised that all this was symbolic, and that the regular worshippers (who now numbered about 24 including little children and the singing group) knew what it all meant, but I didn't. Especially, at one point two golden discs on poles were carried around the church; they looked a little like the Macedonian sun. But I had no idea what it meant. Had I not been a member of this forum, I would not have realised that there is meaningful symbolism in it all, and would have been completely bewildered - but you have all kindly explained some of this to me, so I knew the lack lay in me, not elsewhere.

I couldn't work out why the priest sometimes took his hat off, and sometimes wore it - for example. Lots of little things.

Nor could I work out why everything, even the reading of scripture, was intoned, rather than read in a normal voice. A reading about one of the saints being commemorated that day was read by the priest's wife, again in an intoning voice, but she stood towards the front facing the iconostasis, so she had her back to us and it was hard to hear all she was telling us.

I liked the incense - dare I say? - and I have read that you use it because you see it in scripture. No problem there. But why the little bells on the censor? They would seem jocular to a real first-time visitor who did not know there must be symbolism in them.

But, as I say, my main impression was that we were an audience watching other people doing something symbolic and colourful, namely the 3 or 4 in the intoning group, the priest, and the others in the processions round the church. There was no audience participation at all, except for making the sign of the Cross, except when the Lord's Prayer was said (which I joined in) and the Nicene Creed (which I do not know off by heart: I could have mumbled at the place where the word 'eis' is translated Wink ). The Creed was said in three languages serially, English first, presumably because the others who said it were foreign. I think one might've been Greek, but I don't think it was Demotic.

There was no sermon, but a short homily was handed out on paper, on the reading from the epistles set for the day; and a slightly bigger news-sheet, which contained a longer homily on the Last Things, which to my surprise might almost have been 'lifted' from a Brethren publication: even a nod in the direction of chiliasm.

Some of the service was in Greek, and the sheet which contained the homily on Timothy contained parts of the service. Again, the Greek was not Demotic, but I do not know enough to know whether it was in the Katharevousa or in NT or even Classical Greek.

The effect of the almost uninterrupted intoning for over an hour, the incense, the colour, wrought a kind of lulling effect, and I felt that something had in fact 'gone in'. Strangely, perhaps, just as much as at the Pentecostal 2 or 3 weeks earlier - where, be it said, I was also well impressed with the friendliness and welcome of the people.

I left at the point where the priest emerged from the iconostasis and said something like, "Let us go forth into the world in peace," and led us in "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God..." They had a memorial service for a recently died priest immediately after, and at that point he began (now in a normal voice) to speak of that priest. I hope that was the right moment to slip out; that the Liturgy had reached its conclusion (ca 1 hour 20 minutes) and that I didn't in fact miss the sermon. I had warned them beforehand that I would quietly slip out at that point.

The priest very apologetically explained that they couldn't give me communion, though of course I already knew that, and not to cross my legs if I sat at all because Greek people might take it offensively as a sign of the Cross. (I don't anyway, as I'm told it encourages blood clots.) I liked the way the little children - who were old enough to walk - were invited to take communion. It seemed to make them members of the community more than is the case at our churches, though I fully understand why we don't, for theological reasons. I had been invited to join them all in a parish lunch after the services, but couldn't because my wife expected me home and we had a guest plus my daughter and grandson coming.

When I got home, our Hindu dinner guest overheard my wife asking how I got on, and me describing the service. He said that my reaction as a visitor to Orthodoxy is probably the same as anyone's would be to any church, if he had never been before - which I thought was an interesting comment. I coupled it in my mind with the comment of a 'lovely brother' I stayed with recently when speaking in the New Forest - a life-time teetotaler who said one reason he never goes into a pub is that he would not know how to behave in one. These comments made me want to ensure that I make any visitors at ease and able to understand what is happening when they visit any church where I am leading a service.

Would I go again? Probably yes, again when something hinders attendance where I am in membership, or perhaps when they have a special event, such as perhaps at Christmas time, if we have nothing. I have asked to be on the church's newsletter e-mail list for such information.

I am shortly off to South Wales again (Baptist and Presbyterian this time!) and shall not be posting here for several days.


« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 06:51:15 AM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2009, 09:45:12 AM »

David,

So glad you got the opportunity to go.  Quick question... did you read the websites that I sent you?  Smiley

Interesting that the service before Liturgy was hours.  It's usually Orthros.  Also interesting that the priest handed out sheets.  My guess is that the homily was after you left and that this was either additional for some reason...
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,077


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2009, 09:50:22 AM »

Interesting that the service before Liturgy was hours.  It's usually Orthros.  

Slavic and some monastic traditions do Hours instead of Orthros.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2009, 09:52:40 AM »

Interesting that the service before Liturgy was hours.  It's usually Orthros.  

Slavic and some monastic traditions do Hours instead of Orthros.

Ahhh... How did I not know that??!!  laugh
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,077


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #86 on: February 10, 2009, 04:29:19 PM »

Interesting that the service before Liturgy was hours.  It's usually Orthros.  

Slavic and some monastic traditions do Hours instead of Orthros.

Ahhh... How did I not know that??!!  laugh

For most in the Greek traditions, it's Trivia.
I shouldn't have said "instead of Orthros," because many of these parishes/monasteries will do Orthros, but as part of a "mini vigil" - i.e. with Vespers, the night before.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #87 on: February 10, 2009, 05:46:39 PM »

Interesting that the service before Liturgy was hours.  It's usually Orthros.  

Slavic and some monastic traditions do Hours instead of Orthros.

Ahhh... How did I not know that??!!  laugh

For most in the Greek traditions, it's Trivia.
I shouldn't have said "instead of Orthros," because many of these parishes/monasteries will do Orthros, but as part of a "mini vigil" - i.e. with Vespers, the night before.

Oh, yeah, ok, now that I knew...
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2009, 10:36:30 AM »

Wow! My simple Baptist soul is reeling under an overload of new impressions.

As you know if you've been reading my posts, I spoke 2 or 3 weeks ago at the evening service of a Pentecostal church in South Wales, and yesterday morning I attended our nearest Orthodox church, just across the border in England. I said the Pentecostal was 'alien' (I think) to what I'm used to, but the Orthodox was entirely new. Let me explain...


David,

Have you investigated any Western Rite churches near you in UK?  I think the transition to the rich liturgy of the Orthodox Church for Westerners can be more accessible within the framework of one's native language.  Western Rite also include congregational singing and often the sermons are a bit more involved and fit into a more expository format.  Another words, some of the traditions that were taken into the Reformed church, had their roots in the Western Orthodoxy, and make more sense in their initial setting. 

I liked reading about some of your observations, but you need to feel more comfortable and relaxed among Orthodox.  Infants receiving the Eucharist is an interesting topic.  It really seems to me that you are being called to discover Orthodoxy on a personal level.  The Antiochian Church has a wonderful expression and attitude for lovers of Christ coming to Orthodoxy, "Welcome Home!"
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2009, 12:40:53 PM »

I couldn't make out the purpose of Hours. It consisted of the priest's wife intoning from a book, whilst a small number of people (4 or 5?) sat on the wall-bench and listened. The priest was behind the iconostasis. It wasn't plain to me, as an outsider, what was supposed to be happening.
Hours is to us what Sunday School is to you. What the priest's wife was chanting was the story of the life of a saint (or of saints), as well as several Psalms (which are often sung in parishes that have a choir; it sounds like the one you attended was very small) and prayers of thanksgiving and repentance. Also in larger parishes is Matins, which contains a gospel lesson and many hymns, sung rather than read, including the Lesser and Greater Doxologies: "Glory be to You Who have shown us the light; glory be to God on high, and on earth peace and goodwill among men."

In larger parishes which can afford a four-part choir, the music is often very familiar to those who have been trained in classical Western and Russian music. If you know Bach, Handel, and Tchaikovsky, you can sing any liturgical song. The hymns are beautiful, some ancient and some new, and are sung by the whole parish, led by a choir but not replaced by them.

I found it interesting that the priest would write the sermon rather than present it orally. Perhaps he has trouble with English? In all the parishes I have visited, the sermon has been spoken in a very similar way to traditional Protestants.

I'm glad to see you enjoyed your time, even if you did not understand it. I'm also glad to see that it challenged you to learn more. Never lose the desire to learn; it's what keeps us all young.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Tags: Proselytizing Albania 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.163 seconds with 73 queries.