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Andrea
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« on: November 20, 2008, 12:40:12 PM »

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I hope no one minds my asking for our family's specifics...

My husband asked me yesterday if we were to join the Orthodox Church, would we have to be rebaptized? (He's thinking on these things, YAY!)  I said I didn't think so, as he and our oldest son were baptized with triple immersion when we joined the Catholic Church.  I was baptized at age 10 in a Southern Baptist church.  But I said I didn't know about our other kids who have been baptized by pouring, and if that makes any difference in the acceptance of the baptism.  If that is acceptable, then we would just be received into the Church, correct?

The Orthodox Church close to us is an OCA church.

Thank you.
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 01:32:29 PM »

I also came from a Southern Baptist background and did have a baptism when I came into Orthodoxy (OCA also).  It depends on the instruction from the bishop, I believe.  Most parishes will accept trinitarian baptisms (in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) but I know some have expressed that it's safer to just baptise everyone and, pardon the expression, let God sort 'em out.  I'm glad I did go through baptism into Orthodoxy, though, as I would have felt like I missed an integral part of church life and sacraments. 
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 02:04:14 PM »

Thanks.  Smiley So it's really something to find out from the priest for our specifics, I guess, but I should tell him it is a possibility...

I don't think I'd mind rebaptism as I think I'd feel as you did. Dunno about my dh though. 

Edited to finish sentence.
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2008, 02:48:27 PM »

It depends on the instruction from the bishop, I believe.

I was received by chrismation.  I wish I had been baptized Orthodox.  In fact, I asked.  But the decision was the bishop's, not mine.  The regret and uncertainty, however, is mine -- and mine alone, apparently, since I doubt the bishop has given it a second thought, if he even gave it a first thought.

(Wow!  Shocked  Where did that come from?  I guess I have some things to work through.)
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2008, 04:38:54 PM »

...however, is mine...

are, not is
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2008, 04:48:59 PM »

As has been said, most would receive just by chrismation rather than baptism, and I would think that this includes the OCA. There is technically no "rebaptism," there's either a baptism where there wasn't one before (if they baptize you), or no baptism is performed and chrismation/confession is used.
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2008, 05:19:51 PM »

If one can satisfactorily prove he/she was baptized via 3 fold immersion in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit, then a 2nd Baptism is usually not necessary.

Some Megachurches do have pools where they baptize people by immersion rather than pouring water over them or other means of baptism.
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2008, 05:23:36 PM »

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Some Megachurches do have pools where they baptize people by immersion rather than pouring water over them or other means of baptism.

Or they can do what my little Wesleyan-holiness church did... use the pool in someone's back yard Wink  Cheesy
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2008, 05:41:45 PM »

If one can satisfactorily prove he/she was baptized via 3 fold immersion in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit, then a 2nd Baptism is usually not necessary.

Some Megachurches do have pools where they baptize people by immersion rather than pouring water over them or other means of baptism.

I was not immersed, but sprinkled three times with water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  That was considered sufficient and then I was received by chrismation.

I've been told that if there is the slightest amount of doubt that the baptism was not celebrated in the name of the trinity (using some other new age formula instead), then and only then is a (re)baptism considered necessary.  But again, the discretion, ultimately, belongs to the bishop and/or priest.
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 05:51:55 PM »

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Some Megachurches do have pools where they baptize people by immersion rather than pouring water over them or other means of baptism.

Or they can do what my little Wesleyan-holiness church did... use the pool in someone's back yard Wink  Cheesy

Ditto here - back in the "EOC" days.
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2008, 06:53:15 PM »

Thank you all for sharing your experiences regarding this. I appreciate it. I will let my husband know that there is a possibility of being received by baptism, but it is up to the priest or bishop to decide.

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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2008, 03:39:16 PM »

The popular theory of "acceptable trianitian baptism" is not the mono-voice in Orthodoxy. In fact ,I think the question should be "If exist real mystery out side of real church"? Can mysteries be kept only by "right mothod of administration"without ture faith——Orthodoxy? If so,then the mystery is some magic can "live along" outside of the life-giving body of Christ——His church?

It's will be more gracious for your family to be baptized together by the orthodox way(triple immersion). If the priest or bishop reject,just try from otherone——bishops are not gurus,and the obedience towards them are not samaya vow.
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2008, 03:54:03 PM »

The popular theory of "acceptable trianitian baptism" is not the mono-voice in Orthodoxy. In fact ,I think the question should be "If exist real mystery out side of real church"? Can mysteries be kept only by "right mothod of administration"without ture faith——Orthodoxy? If so,then the mystery is some magic can "live along" outside of the life-giving body of Christ——His church?

It's will be more gracious for your family to be baptized together by the orthodox way(triple immersion). If the priest or bishop reject,just try from otherone——bishops are not gurus,and the obedience towards them are not samaya vow.

Very odd that someone who advocates jurisdiction jumping from someone who is so worried about canonical order in the Phillipines.  In fact, someone obsessed with form (mono-ordination) than substance (Orthodox bishop's hand).

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15199.msg273017.html#msg273017
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2008, 04:03:10 PM »

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I hope no one minds my asking for our family's specifics...

My husband asked me yesterday if we were to join the Orthodox Church, would we have to be rebaptized? (He's thinking on these things, YAY!)  I said I didn't think so, as he and our oldest son were baptized with triple immersion when we joined the Catholic Church.  I was baptized at age 10 in a Southern Baptist church.  But I said I didn't know about our other kids who have been baptized by pouring, and if that makes any difference in the acceptance of the baptism.  If that is acceptable, then we would just be received into the Church, correct?

The Orthodox Church close to us is an OCA church.

What diocese?

For me, the issue only came up when I almost married a Copt (they are very strict).  Because of the nonsense going on in some denominations, I'm of the opinion that the day may be coming when provisional baptism might be necessary.  There is a fundamental difference, however, between the Vatican's baptism and the Mormon's or even the Baptist's (non-Trinitarian, single immersion, etc.).  The Ecumenical canons are clear that the baptism of certain heretics was accepted by economy by the fathers.

Btw, does anyone have a short exposition (or thread) on the practice of economy in general?
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2008, 04:11:36 PM »

Quote
Very odd that someone who advocates jurisdiction jumping from someone who is so worried about canonical order in the Phillipines.  In fact, someone obsessed with form (mono-ordination) than substance (Orthodox bishop's hand).

What "jurisdiction jumping" did you talk about? They did not convert yet,so not belong to any jurisdiction, right?

How can we consider that the "Orthodox bishop's hand" is the substance of mystery of cheirotonia ? Can bishop ordain only by hand laying(without prayer or by his own prayer than the appointed one)?
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2008, 04:33:54 PM »

Quote
Very odd that someone who advocates jurisdiction jumping from someone who is so worried about canonical order in the Phillipines.  In fact, someone obsessed with form (mono-ordination) than substance (Orthodox bishop's hand).

What "jurisdiction jumping" did you talk about? They did not convert yet,so not belong to any jurisdiction, right?

All right then.  Jurisdiction shopping, if you prefer.

Quote
How can we consider that the "Orthodox bishop's hand" is the substance of mystery of cheirotonia ? Can bishop ordain only by hand laying(without prayer or by his own prayer than the appointed one)?

In a contest of importance between whether the hand is that of an Orthodox bishop (and the Faith of those he ordains), and how many heads he puts it on in one service, it isn't even close.
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2008, 01:10:59 AM »



What diocese?


Diocese of the West.
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2008, 01:24:42 AM »

I was received into the OCA Diocese of the West by baptism. Prior to being Orthodox, I was an Episcopalian. I have two godchildren who were raised in the Roman Catholic Church, and they were received into the Orthodox Church via chrismation. 
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2008, 08:51:41 AM »


I was received into the OCA Diocese of the West by baptism. Prior to being Orthodox, I was an Episcopalian. I have two godchildren who were raised in the Roman Catholic Church, and they were received into the Orthodox Church via chrismation. 

I just went on pilgrimage to Fort Ross, and my older son's godfather is from SF.  I don't know anything about HG Benjamin, but do know that the bishops have talked about problems on the East and West coast that may make provisional baptisms the norm: in those areas, denominations otherwise alright do strange things with no oversight (like "baptisms" with rose petals in the name of the "Creator, Savior and Sanctifier").  Such things are not yet common in fly over country.  Here in the midwest, I have never heard of the OCA receiving someone by baptism except when they had not been baptized by their former denomination.
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« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2008, 03:50:57 PM »

I just went on pilgrimage to Fort Ross, and my older son's godfather is from SF.  I don't know anything about HG Benjamin, but do know that the bishops have talked about problems on the East and West coast that may make provisional baptisms the norm: in those areas, denominations otherwise alright do strange things with no oversight (like "baptisms" with rose petals in the name of the "Creator, Savior and Sanctifier").  Such things are not yet common in fly over country.  Here in the midwest, I have never heard of the OCA receiving someone by baptism except when they had not been baptized by their former denomination.
Hey, were you at the Fort Ross pilgrimage this past July 4th? Because I was defintely there...

I don't know if that's why I was baptized into the Orthodox Church. It would seem that the common practice here is to baptise every kind of Protestant, and to chrismate Catholics. I did once see a Lutheran chrismated, and that was confusing to me since I was Anglican, which is traditionally seen as being closer to Orthodoxy, and I was baptised.  Also, there was nothing wrong with the form of my Episcopalian baptism, I had the baptism certificates to prove that it was a Trinitarian baptism and even asked several relatives who had been present (since I was a baby and obviously didn't remember myself) if it was Trinitarian and done with water, and they all confirmed that it was. It was actually kind of weird how I had to go through all the trouble to do all that and then got baptised, and all the other Protestants in my parish have also been baptised, so I don't see how there was any ambiguity about what would happen. Oh well. I even know some Catholics who were baptised into the Orthodox Church!
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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2008, 04:54:26 PM »

I just went on pilgrimage to Fort Ross, and my older son's godfather is from SF.  I don't know anything about HG Benjamin, but do know that the bishops have talked about problems on the East and West coast that may make provisional baptisms the norm: in those areas, denominations otherwise alright do strange things with no oversight (like "baptisms" with rose petals in the name of the "Creator, Savior and Sanctifier").  Such things are not yet common in fly over country.  Here in the midwest, I have never heard of the OCA receiving someone by baptism except when they had not been baptized by their former denomination.
Hey, were you at the Fort Ross pilgrimage this past July 4th? Because I was defintely there...

No.  I was at the dock next to the replica of the Mayflower, facing Plymouth Rock and the fireworks, eating main lobster on July 4.  We were there just after Dormition (didn't get there in time because of flash floods in Arizona).

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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2008, 08:42:26 PM »


I was received into the OCA Diocese of the West by baptism. Prior to being Orthodox, I was an Episcopalian. I have two godchildren who were raised in the Roman Catholic Church, and they were received into the Orthodox Church via chrismation. 

I just went on pilgrimage to Fort Ross, and my older son's godfather is from SF.  I don't know anything about HG Benjamin, but do know that the bishops have talked about problems on the East and West coast that may make provisional baptisms the norm: in those areas, denominations otherwise alright do strange things with no oversight (like "baptisms" with rose petals in the name of the "Creator, Savior and Sanctifier").  Such things are not yet common in fly over country.  Here in the midwest, I have never heard of the OCA receiving someone by baptism except when they had not been baptized by their former denomination.
I see you've attended a "baptism" at a Unity Church also Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2008, 08:02:16 PM »

The popular theory of "acceptable trianitian baptism" is not the mono-voice in Orthodoxy. In fact ,I think the question should be "If exist real mystery out side of real church"? Can mysteries be kept only by "right mothod of administration"without ture faith——Orthodoxy? If so,then the mystery is some magic can "live along" outside of the life-giving body of Christ——His church?

It's will be more gracious for your family to be baptized together by the orthodox way(triple immersion). If the priest or bishop reject,just try from otherone——bishops are not gurus,and the obedience towards them are not samaya vow.
FWIW, I'll repeat the Orthodox doctrine on heterodox baptism so that it's clear for this thread.  There is no baptism outside the Orthodox Church.  However, upon one's reception into the Church, we believe that an Orthodox chrismation is capable of filling the empty shell of the heterodox baptism if the baptism was performed according to proper form (i.e., triple immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).  This oikonomia of recognizing chrismation as sufficient for reception of those baptized outside the Church (to be seen as the exception and not the rule) renders the original baptism Orthodox, making (re)baptism unnecessary.

As to the idea of "this bishop won't baptize me in the Orthodox way, so I'll look for a bishop who will" ...  A very dangerous attitude, indeed, since you, a potential convert, are setting yourself up to know more of what you need pastorally than do Orthodox bishops.  Is this not the epitome of the prideful convert?
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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2008, 08:13:01 PM »


FWIW, I'll repeat the Orthodox doctrine on heterodox baptism so that it's clear for this thread.  There is no baptism outside the Orthodox Church.  However, upon one's reception into the Church, we believe that an Orthodox chrismation is capable of filling the empty shell of the heterodox baptism if the baptism was performed according to proper form (i.e., triple immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).  This oikonomia of recognizing chrismation as sufficient for reception of those baptized outside the Church (to be seen as the exception and not the rule) renders the original baptism Orthodox, making (re)baptism unnecessary.

As to the idea of "this bishop won't baptize me in the Orthodox way, so I'll look for a bishop who will" ...  A very dangerous attitude, indeed, since you, a potential convert, are setting yourself up to know more of what you need pastorally than do Orthodox bishops.  Is this not the epitome of the prideful convert?

Thank you for your explanation, it's very helpful, and I understand.

I hope your last paragraph was not directed at me, as I never made any statement like that. Should we decide to convert we would respect the wishes of the bishop or priest regarding baptism.

 Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2008, 08:16:17 PM »

I hope your last paragraph was not directed at me, as I never made any statement like that. Should we decide to convert we would respect the wishes of the bishop or priest regarding baptism.

 Smiley
No. Smiley  I was speaking to advice that Elpidophoros offered earlier on this thread.  My use of the second person "you" was not directed to anyone specifically.
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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2008, 09:21:40 PM »

Hey, were you at the Fort Ross pilgrimage this past July 4th? Because I was defintely there...


You were?  I've been to the last eight.  I was singing in the choir, and part of the small group singing the "Eis polla", "Trisagion" and others.
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« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2008, 02:29:55 AM »

Hey, were you at the Fort Ross pilgrimage this past July 4th? Because I was defintely there...


You were?  I've been to the last eight.  I was singing in the choir, and part of the small group singing the "Eis polla", "Trisagion" and others.
That's cool...I was part of Fr Jonah's entourage of monks and young bearded men!
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« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2008, 04:16:54 AM »

Hey, were you at the Fort Ross pilgrimage this past July 4th? Because I was defintely there...


You were?  I've been to the last eight.  I was singing in the choir, and part of the small group singing the "Eis polla", "Trisagion" and others.
That's cool...I was part of Fr Jonah's entourage of monks and young bearded men!

Gotcha.
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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2008, 12:01:40 PM »

I was baptized in the Lutheran Church and my husband Roman Catholic, we were both received by Chrismation.  (On different occasions)

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