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Author Topic: USA territory  (Read 11350 times) Average Rating: 0
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ROCORthodox
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« Reply #135 on: November 15, 2008, 09:14:24 AM »


After listening to the speeches posted on Ancient Faith Radio I heard the idea repeated that the OCA is the American church of Orthodoxy.  Well, why isn't there a Patriarch instead of a Metropolitan?   

Because autocephaly doesn't require a patriarchate.  Just ask Cyprus.  Or Greece.

I hope we can discuss this topic without rancor because it is very important given the statements made by Met. Jonah. 

What arrangement does Cyprus or Greece have with other jurisdictions on their canonical territory - and how does this concept apply to the canoncial church on American soil?  After all, the MP (which is a Patriarchate) did grant OCA autocephaly for this territory! 

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Veniamin
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« Reply #136 on: November 15, 2008, 09:47:39 AM »


After listening to the speeches posted on Ancient Faith Radio I heard the idea repeated that the OCA is the American church of Orthodoxy.  Well, why isn't there a Patriarch instead of a Metropolitan?   

Because autocephaly doesn't require a patriarchate.  Just ask Cyprus.  Or Greece.

I hope we can discuss this topic without rancor because it is very important given the statements made by Met. Jonah. 

What arrangement does Cyprus or Greece have with other jurisdictions on their canonical territory - and how does this concept apply to the canoncial church on American soil?  After all, the MP (which is a Patriarchate) did grant OCA autocephaly for this territory! 



What relevance does that have to whether or not an autocephalous American church has a patriarch or not?
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ROCORthodox
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« Reply #137 on: November 15, 2008, 01:42:25 PM »


After listening to the speeches posted on Ancient Faith Radio I heard the idea repeated that the OCA is the American church of Orthodoxy.  Well, why isn't there a Patriarch instead of a Metropolitan?   

Because autocephaly doesn't require a patriarchate.  Just ask Cyprus.  Or Greece.

I hope we can discuss this topic without rancor because it is very important given the statements made by Met. Jonah. 

What arrangement does Cyprus or Greece have with other jurisdictions on their canonical territory - and how does this concept apply to the canoncial church on American soil?  After all, the MP (which is a Patriarchate) did grant OCA autocephaly for this territory! 



What relevance does that have to whether or not an autocephalous American church has a patriarch or not?

That question was based on my acceptance of your answer to the previous Patriarch question.   

I guess what I am trying to understand clearly is this riddle:  We have ROCOR who has recently joined with the MP.  MP granted autocephaly to OCA and, from that, the OCA became the American church.   I assume with this autocephaly the MP released its claim to the Americas as their territory.   Well, shouldn't ROCOR have come under OCA, at least in America, seeing as the MP granted autocephaly to OCA?  How is it that OCA was not included in this merger seeing as the bulk of ROCOR parishes are in America?

My question about how Greece and Cyprus handled other jurisdictions in their canonical territory was along this line of thinking.
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« Reply #138 on: November 15, 2008, 02:45:04 PM »

I guess what I am trying to understand clearly is this riddle:  We have ROCOR who has recently joined with the MP.  MP granted autocephaly to OCA and, from that, the OCA became the American church.   I assume with this autocephaly the MP released its claim to the Americas as their territory.

The MP kept 33 Churches for herself (probably because each Church didn't join the Metropolia for whatever reasons) and allowed the rest of the Churches in the Metropolia to become the autocephalous Jurisdiction known as the OCA.  The MP + ROCOR have a presence in America and a seat on SCOBA along with OCA.  

Well, shouldn't ROCOR have come under OCA, at least in America, seeing as the MP granted autocephaly to OCA?  How is it that OCA was not included in this merger seeing as the bulk of ROCOR parishes are in America?

ROCOR was schismatic for different reasons than the Metropolia.  Besides, the OCA has no wishes to return to Russian roots or perceived Russian influence.  Have you been reading the Boards?   Smiley

My question about how Greece and Cyprus handled other jurisdictions in their canonical territory was along this line of thinking.

Some Orthodox Jurisdictions have Churches in Greece and Cyprus.  Some Greek islands have Roman Catholic Dioceses as a result of past Venetian influence.  The Ecumenical Patriarch jointly ministers to Churches in Northern Greece along with the Church of Greece.
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Elisha
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« Reply #139 on: November 15, 2008, 03:06:13 PM »

The Primates of the Churches of Poland and the Czech Lands are not Patriarchs either.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #140 on: November 16, 2008, 10:15:15 AM »

Quote
ROCOR was schismatic for different reasons than the Metropolia.

You could argue, if you wanted, that there was some uncanonical happenings, but I don't see a schism anywhere.
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« Reply #141 on: November 19, 2008, 08:35:07 PM »

Looking into this topic I found this statement by Abbot (now Met) Jonah wherein he directly addresses the EP's presence in USA:

". . . Its (EP's) claim of jurisdiction over the so-called "barbarian lands," or "diaspora" falls on the deaf ears of other patriarchates that have established identical institutions in the same territories, disregarding its claims to jurisdiction outside the geographic boundaries of existing churches. Beyond this, having been the first to abrogate the unity of the Church in America, Constantinople's own political
adventurism has divided the Church in Estonia, and threatens the unity of the Church in
Ukraine and other places, and hence, its communion with Moscow and other autocephalous churches. By these actions it has broken trust in itself, and sacrificed its ability to lead."

"In 1970, the Russian Orthodox Church granted autocephaly to its American mission, forming the Orthodox Church in America. While this action remains controversial to this day, it recognized the existence of a local Church in America, with the fullness of sacramental integrity and institutional self-sufficiency. In other words, the gift of autocephaly established a hierarchy with the authority to incarnate the vision and mission of the Orthodox Church in North America by its own work, and to take responsibility for the life and growth of the Church in North America while remaining accountable to the other national Churches throughout the world. Finally, there was an effort to establish church life according to canonical norms.

. . . The dilemma, however, is that with autocephaly, the presence of any other jurisdiction on American territory becomes uncanonical, and membership in the Synod of the Orthodox Church in America becomes the criterion of canonicity for all bishops in America. This, of course, has not been pushed by the oca. What is at stake, however, is the canonical order of the Church, its vision and mission."

http://www.oca.org/PDF/metropolitan-jonah/MJ.Episcopacy_Primacy_Mother%20Churches.pdf
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 08:42:52 PM by ROCORthodox » Logged
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« Reply #142 on: November 19, 2008, 08:37:44 PM »

Looking into this topic I found this statement by Abbot (now Met) Jonah wherein he directly addresses the EP's presence in USA:

". . . Its (EP's) claim of jurisdiction over the so-called "barbarian lands," or "diaspora" falls on the deaf ears of other patriarchates that have established identical institutions in the same territories, disregarding its claims to jurisdiction outside the geographic boundaries of existing churches. Beyond this, having been the first to abrogate the unity of the Church in America, Constantinople's own political
adventurism has divided the Church in Estonia, and threatens the unity of the Church in
Ukraine and other places, and hence, its communion with Moscow and other autocephalous churches. By these actions it has broken trust in itself, and sacrificed its ability to lead."

http://www.oca.org/PDF/metropolitan-jonah/MJ.Episcopacy_Primacy_Mother%20Churches.pdf


And do want to share some opinion about it or are you just sharing this paragraph?  I think this was already brought up.
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ROCORthodox
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« Reply #143 on: November 19, 2008, 08:50:00 PM »

Looking into this topic I found this statement by Abbot (now Met) Jonah wherein he directly addresses the EP's presence in USA:

". . . Its (EP's) claim of jurisdiction over the so-called "barbarian lands," or "diaspora" falls on the deaf ears of other patriarchates that have established identical institutions in the same territories, disregarding its claims to jurisdiction outside the geographic boundaries of existing churches. Beyond this, having been the first to abrogate the unity of the Church in America, Constantinople's own political
adventurism has divided the Church in Estonia, and threatens the unity of the Church in
Ukraine and other places, and hence, its communion with Moscow and other autocephalous churches. By these actions it has broken trust in itself, and sacrificed its ability to lead."

http://www.oca.org/PDF/metropolitan-jonah/MJ.Episcopacy_Primacy_Mother%20Churches.pdf


And do want to share some opinion about it or are you just sharing this paragraph?  I think this was already brought up.

Sorry about reposting what has already been brought up.  My original comment was merged into this thread from another section. 
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« Reply #144 on: November 20, 2008, 12:49:26 AM »

Dear Friends:

Perhaps some history may help the discussion. The American Metropolia decared itself "temporarily Autocephalous" in 1924 because of the situation in Russia. At that time, the MP demanded that all Russian clergy sign a pledge of allegaince to the Soviet State. Later, in the 1960's, Metropolitans Leonty and Iriney actually sought to be taken into the Ecumenical Patriarchate, as had the Russian Archdiocese of Paris and Western Europe.

Patriarch Athenagoras, however, told them to work out their situation with Moscow. After that, there were many years of VERY delicate negotiations. I was once told by someone who witnessed that time, that the most important discussions were held in hotel elevators (the one place that the representatives of the MP could escape their KGB minders). The end result was  the 1970 Tomos of Autocepahly.

No-one at the time: not Metropolitan Iriney, not Fr. Schmemmann - no-one ever stated that the OCA's autocephaly was a final result; but just one step on the road to a united, multi-ethnic Orthodox community in the Americas. There were numerous articles in the OCA newspaper that made this clear. It was always stated that SCOBA was the means to unify the Orthodox. The bishops of the OCA on several times stated their willingness to surrender their autocephaly as part of a unifircation process.

Sadly, that vision of Orthodox unity was lost with the OCA's long "time of troubles". We should remember, that all the SCOBA bishops declared their assent to unity at the meeting in Ligonier. Metropolitan Phillip has been working diligently to reactivate the movement to a unification of the Orthodox in this land.

We need to remember that unification need not mean a denial of ethnic origin or culture, nor does it mean a subjugation of one community to another. There are many in all jurisdictions, who are working to build that unity "from the ground up" - witness the IOCC, OCMC, the Seminarian exchanges. Unification will come in time. Nothing worth having comes easily.

Best wishes to all for the Nativity Fast

Francis Frsot
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Tags: Chalcedon Canon 28 American Unity The Diaspora of the OCA 
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