Author Topic: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.  (Read 2564 times)

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Offline Robb

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Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« on: September 21, 2009, 12:59:59 AM »
What is the history and statues of the brief period of intercommunion which existed between the Roman Catholic and Russian Orthodox (MP) Churches?  I understand that this intercommunion lasted from 1969 until 1986 when it was repealed (by Moscow, I assume).  How did this come about and was there actually cases where RC's were openly communed in Russian Orthodox churches?  I'm not talking about the "under the table" type of intercommunion which happens a lot today in many jurisdictions, but an actual sharing of the Eucharist by both Churches.

Also, while I know that ROCOR didn't go along with this, did the OCA and the West European Russian archdiocese, also go along with this?  Why was it eventually broken off and was it a mutual decision or just something the MP did?
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2012, 07:59:17 AM »
Odd that this thread never received any replies.
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Offline Luckster

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2012, 08:12:26 AM »
I think this was hearsay, honestly. I've never heard about this and I tend to follow ecumenical participation.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 08:13:10 AM by Luckster »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2012, 08:34:37 AM »
Odd that this thread never received any replies.

We cover our Father's nakedness in the Orthodox Church  :)

Offline Peter J

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2012, 08:59:46 AM »
Odd that this thread never received any replies.

We cover our Father's nakedness in the Orthodox Church  :)

You mean like the way you guys pretend that Orthodox were never allowed to receive communion in Anglican churches?
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2012, 09:03:30 AM »
Odd that this thread never received any replies.

We cover our Father's nakedness in the Orthodox Church  :)

You mean like the way you guys pretend that Orthodox were never allowed to receive communion in Anglican churches?

Now you're getting it :)  
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 09:04:25 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2012, 10:50:28 AM »
Odd that this thread never received any replies.

We cover our Father's nakedness in the Orthodox Church  :)

You mean like the way you guys pretend that Orthodox were never allowed to receive communion in Anglican churches?

To be fair- the amount of time Orthodox were officially allowed to receive communion at an Anglican church was relatively short- the few years between St Raphael of Brooklyn talking with a few High Church Anglicans and giving permission to attend an Anglican church and receive sacraments in cases of extreme emergency and him hearing that the Episcopalians were then saying that there was no need whatsoever to go to an Orthodox Church, even if there were one nearby, because Anglicanism is American Orthodoxy. It just took a few decades for all the Orthodox to get the memo- what with there being no parishes nearby.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 10:51:30 AM by FormerReformer »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2012, 11:23:31 AM »
Odd that this thread never received any replies.

We cover our Father's nakedness in the Orthodox Church  :)

You mean like the way you guys pretend that Orthodox were never allowed to receive communion in Anglican churches?

To be fair- the amount of time Orthodox were officially allowed to receive communion at an Anglican church was relatively short- the few years between St Raphael of Brooklyn talking with a few High Church Anglicans and giving permission to attend an Anglican church and receive sacraments in cases of extreme emergency and him hearing that the Episcopalians were then saying that there was no need whatsoever to go to an Orthodox Church, even if there were one nearby, because Anglicanism is American Orthodoxy. It just took a few decades for all the Orthodox to get the memo- what with there being no parishes nearby.

Interesting.

Honestly, I'm no expert on the matter, I generally rely on what I hear from others, e.g. Fr. Robert Hart:

Quote
In fact, the Anglicans were so highly regarded that here, in Amercia, when Orthodox Christians lived very far away from an Orthodox Church, they received special letters from the Orthodox Hierarchy giving them permission to attend the Episcopal Church and to receive the sacraments- including the Holy Communion of Christ's Body and Blood (and so throughout the countries where the Anglican Churches could meet this need). Today, with Orthodox Churches in most major cities and towns, this situation does not exist (Orthodox people who remember this are still alive).

http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2006/05/orthodoxy-and-anglicanism-in-road.html

So if I understand you, FormerReformer, the policy ended because it was being abused?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 11:24:22 AM by Peter J »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2012, 11:28:11 AM »
This letter by St. Raphael of Brooklyn might interest you...

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2012, 12:58:18 PM »
It is interesting to note that Anglicans were considered for intercommunion before we were.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2012, 01:07:36 PM »
It is interesting to note that Anglicans were considered for intercommunion before we were.

 ???  We've been trying to talk to you for 1,200 years...

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2012, 01:37:08 PM »
It is interesting to note that Anglicans were considered for intercommunion before we were.

 ???  We've been trying to talk to you for 1,200 years...
You didn't require the Anglicans to become Eastern Orthodox before sending your faithful to them to commune.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2012, 01:39:31 PM »
Odd that this thread never received any replies.
Fr. Ambrose (Many Years!) answered this very issue with details.  IIRC, it wasn't all the way to 1986 but only a few years, and their is question about how often it was applied.  I don't have the time at present to search for the thread.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2012, 01:42:40 PM »
Odd that this thread never received any replies.

We cover our Father's nakedness in the Orthodox Church  :)

You mean like the way you guys pretend that Orthodox were never allowed to receive communion in Anglican churches?

To be fair- the amount of time Orthodox were officially allowed to receive communion at an Anglican church was relatively short- the few years between St Raphael of Brooklyn talking with a few High Church Anglicans and giving permission to attend an Anglican church and receive sacraments in cases of extreme emergency and him hearing that the Episcopalians were then saying that there was no need whatsoever to go to an Orthodox Church, even if there were one nearby, because Anglicanism is American Orthodoxy. It just took a few decades for all the Orthodox to get the memo- what with there being no parishes nearby.

Interesting.

Honestly, I'm no expert on the matter, I generally rely on what I hear from others, e.g. Fr. Robert Hart:

Quote
In fact, the Anglicans were so highly regarded that here, in Amercia, when Orthodox Christians lived very far away from an Orthodox Church, they received special letters from the Orthodox Hierarchy giving them permission to attend the Episcopal Church and to receive the sacraments- including the Holy Communion of Christ's Body and Blood (and so throughout the countries where the Anglican Churches could meet this need). Today, with Orthodox Churches in most major cities and towns, this situation does not exist (Orthodox people who remember this are still alive).

http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2006/05/orthodoxy-and-anglicanism-in-road.html

So if I understand you, FormerReformer, the policy ended because it was being abused?
and we got to know the Anglicans better.

At higher levels (i.e. the highest), intercommunion had been rejected ever since the dialogue between the Non-jurors and the Orthodox Patriarchates in the 1700's.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Peter J

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2012, 01:46:48 PM »
It is interesting to note that Anglicans were considered for intercommunion before we were.

With regard to ecumenism, Catholics and Anglicans have been moving in opposite directions for the last few decades: Catholics have become much more ecumenical than they used to be, while Anglicans have decided to do their own thing regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Not surprisingly, then, Catholic-Orthodox relations used to be much worse than they are now, but Anglican-Orthodox relations used to be much better.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 01:51:00 PM by Peter J »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2012, 02:11:49 PM »
It is interesting to note that Anglicans were considered for intercommunion before we were.

 ???  We've been trying to talk to you for 1,200 years...
You didn't require the Anglicans to become Eastern Orthodox before sending your faithful to them to commune.

Some people mistakenly thought they were orthodox. Sort of a long lost tribe of Orthodoxy or something. I dunno.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 02:12:08 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Past intercommunion between RC and RO Churches.
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2012, 06:08:26 PM »
It is interesting to note that Anglicans were considered for intercommunion before we were.

 ???  We've been trying to talk to you for 1,200 years...
You didn't require the Anglicans to become Eastern Orthodox before sending your faithful to them to commune.

Some people mistakenly thought they were orthodox. Sort of a long lost tribe of Orthodoxy or something. I dunno.

Well, High Church Anglicanism combined with the outward appearance of the Anglican Communion's ecclesiastical structure (Canterbury as first among equals, but no jurisdiction outside of England) can certainly appear at first glance as fairly Orthodox. Combined with the High Church propaganda machine of the time, presenting themselves as Apostolic offshoots of the English Catholic Church (just don't look too closely at the BCP and Low and Broad Church elements), being the loudest talkers in inter-communion dialogue with the RC and the Orthodox and it is quite easy to see how a new-comer to the West in the early 20th Century might mistake Anglicanism as being close enough to Orthodoxy to allow emergency sacraments.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!